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On March 16 2014 06:53 Gorsameth wrote:Does the west sell a lot of weapons to Russia tho? and would not selling hurt them? Genuine question. I have no idea
Well not selling them would first and foremost hit the west, because of the money. The more important point and the bad thing about this situation is that Russia is already in such a bad economical shape that you can't really threaten them with anything.
They just don't have that much to lose. I don't know if Russia even cares if we sanction them, it's probably worth a try anyway.
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On March 16 2014 06:53 Gorsameth wrote:Does the west sell a lot of weapons to Russia tho? and would not selling hurt them? Genuine question. I have no idea
This mostly concerns France's sale of Mistral warships destined for... Sevastopol.
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On March 16 2014 07:02 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 06:53 Gorsameth wrote:Does the west sell a lot of weapons to Russia tho? and would not selling hurt them? Genuine question. I have no idea This mostly concerns France's sale of Mistral warships destined for... Sevastopol.
Was already clarified i think, some french ministerguy said that the third step in sanctions would be not to sell those warships.
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On March 16 2014 07:09 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 07:02 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 16 2014 06:53 Gorsameth wrote:Does the west sell a lot of weapons to Russia tho? and would not selling hurt them? Genuine question. I have no idea This mostly concerns France's sale of Mistral warships destined for... Sevastopol. Was already clarified i think, some french ministerguy said that the third step in sanctions would be not to sell those warships.
Can you find a link?
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On March 16 2014 07:11 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 07:09 m4ini wrote:On March 16 2014 07:02 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 16 2014 06:53 Gorsameth wrote:Does the west sell a lot of weapons to Russia tho? and would not selling hurt them? Genuine question. I have no idea This mostly concerns France's sale of Mistral warships destined for... Sevastopol. Was already clarified i think, some french ministerguy said that the third step in sanctions would be not to sell those warships. Can you find a link?
Checking right now, don't know where i read it - gimme cpl minutes.
edit: hm.. Must've dreamed it, weird. I could've sworn that in this regard i read "third step of sanctions" for the first time, guess not. Scrap what i said - still looking to make sure though, in different languages now since i don't remember what language i read it in.
edit2:
Ha, found it.
http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/03/15/ukraine-crisis-hollande-idINDEEA2E04M20140315
When asked whether France would suspend a 1.2 billion euro helicopter carrier contract with Russia, Hollande told a news conference: "As far as other sanctions, notably military cooperation, that is the third level of sanctions."
"some french ministerguy" being Hollande.
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On March 16 2014 06:43 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 06:32 zeo wrote:On March 16 2014 06:01 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On March 16 2014 05:57 Roman666 wrote:On March 16 2014 05:53 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:50 Roman666 wrote:On March 16 2014 05:46 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:41 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:31 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:28 SilentchiLL wrote:
[quote]
Can people stop derailing the thread with the "But America!" argument?
I'm not even american and even I notice that it keeps on happening even if it has little to do with the actual situation at hand.
Even if the US would be just as bad as Russia it really wouldn't matter since this thread isn't a USA vs Russia thread, it's a thread about the the crisis in the Ukraine.
You can't justify Russia's actions by the actions of the States in the past and if that's not what your intention is and you just want to write what you think about the USA's foreign policy then this simply isn't the place for it.
[quote]
Can anybody tell me if Putin will actually care about this? Everyone agrees what Russia is doing is wrong, not everyone agrees whether they are the "baddie" of the world or just acting like everyone else. So what's your point, rather a discussion on the part people disagree on, should we just all circlejerk about how wrong Russia is and high 5 each other? How the hell did you manage to COMPLETELY ignore the part about the Kosovo War? Because the point of mentioning the Kosova war is that along with Iraq, I can paint a picture of America also doing whatever it takes, right or wrong to pursue their own national interests just like Russia, I'm not getting into the pointless argument that you or whoever responded about it wants to have, when there's so much ideology here no one is being convinced of anything, Except US had no national interest in Kosovo, so your argument does not hold here. And please, can we stop the derailment with "But USA"? USA is not saint, people got it, people know it, let us stop right here, and discuss the matter at hand. Their national interest is they are weakening Serbia, a Russian ally. Really, Serbia is a Russian ally? And that is why they started accession talks with EU, right? To deny that Serbia isn't very cozy with Russia is absurd. To deny that a tiny country joining a nearly-continental economic union is a godsend for a country in terrible shape (though not as bad as Ukraine's) as Serbia is further absurd. EU isn't a political/military alliance group, as much as toy poodles like Germany and Britain would like to make it seem as such. I'm not quite sure I understood what you said. Serbia joining the EU would be good for us? Yes, of course it would be. It's just that the people running the pro-EU show in my country are a complete farce just like the ones in Ukraine. They have absolutely no idea what they are doing and try to cover up all their monumental fuckups with 'it will all be ok, we just need to get into the EU, just 10 more years'. Serbia has absolutely no plans to join NATO, though being surrounded by NATO countries means we have to just shut up and stay neutral. Everyone is perfectly fine with that. what political party are you affiliated with? You oppose the old Milosvecic party that is currently in power and signed the further EU protocols but you oppose the EU ascension which the Democrat Party signed up for. I am confused.
I made a post about this a few pages back. The Democratic Party, yes. There is no problem with going into the European Union as long at it is done in a responsible fashion by responsible people. It's a very complicated situation but if you look deeper, not even that deep, just break the crust of these pro-EU parties in eastern post communist Europe you will find something that is very rotten. My own party was rotten to the core but not being in power anymore has freed us from the incredible amount of parasites and petty profiteers that built up, believe me when I say I used to spend more time hating the embarrassing people from my own ranks than anyone else. Don't think for one second every pro-EU party in Ukraine isn't corrupt as shit, especially now.
I would like to say trust me when I say that the people that started Maidan are no better than Yanukovych and that the destruction of Ukraine just so they could bring in a new bunch of criminals was a very wrong way to go about things, but it would fall on deaf ears. Believe whatever you want to believe. I have my own elections tomorrow and have the same euro-taliban problem Ukrainians have, just they won't come to power by crippling the whole country and getting people killed.
edit: The fact that they went so far as to rely on the help of the absolute bottom of Ukrainian society, extremists, fascists and who knows what other filth just shows how desperate they were for power and how little they care for the people of Ukraine.
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So the threat is actually meaningless....
Why am I not surprised.
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On March 16 2014 07:13 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 07:11 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 16 2014 07:09 m4ini wrote:On March 16 2014 07:02 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 16 2014 06:53 Gorsameth wrote:Does the west sell a lot of weapons to Russia tho? and would not selling hurt them? Genuine question. I have no idea This mostly concerns France's sale of Mistral warships destined for... Sevastopol. Was already clarified i think, some french ministerguy said that the third step in sanctions would be not to sell those warships. Can you find a link? Checking right now, don't know where i read it - gimme cpl minutes. edit: hm.. Must've dreamed it, weird. I could've sworn that in this regard i read "third step of sanctions" for the first time, guess not. Scrap what i said - still looking to make sure though, in different languages now since i don't remember what language i read it in. edit2: Ha, found it. http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/03/15/ukraine-crisis-hollande-idINDEEA2E04M20140315Show nested quote +When asked whether France would suspend a 1.2 billion euro helicopter carrier contract with Russia, Hollande told a news conference: "As far as other sanctions, notably military cooperation, that is the third level of sanctions." "some french ministerguy" being Hollande.
Thanks! Of course, we're currently talking about the second step of sanctions on Monday. There would need to be further escalation for step 3 (such as Russian troops being airdropped into areas outside of the Crimea...)
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On 15 March 2014 investigative division of Dzerzhinskij regional office of Kharkov City division of the ГУМВД ("Central Administration of the Ministry of Internal Affairs") of Ukraine in Kharkov Oblast opened a number of criminal investigations looking into the events that occurred on the night of 14-15 March at Rymarskaya Street in Kharkov, regarding articles 2-115 (willful killing), 2-294 (rioting), and 2-294 (attempted murder of a law enforcement employee) of Ukraine's Criminal Code It has been established that a confrontation between pro-Russian individuals and members of "Right Sector" organization, who barricaded themselves inside building #18, occurred on 14 March at 22:00 (10:00pm) at Rymarskaya Street in Kharkov. After pro-Russian individuals attempted to force entry, bottles with flammable liquid ("Molotov cocktails") were thrown at them, and arms fire was opened upon them from 2nd floor windows. Two people died of ballistic trauma as a result of this incident -- both are residents of Kharkov, who were in the street in the crowd of pro-Russian individuals at the time. Four people were also wounded, one of whom is a policeman (who was in uniform and on duty). All injured have been hospitalized. In addition a member of "Right Sector" organization came to a local hospital with bullet wounds to his limbs at 07:30 (7:30 am). Circumstances of his injuries are being established. This confrontation was at all times under control of law enforcement, who negotiated with participants. As a result, 29 people have been led out of "Ukraine's Patriots" office space where members of "Right Sector" were located, at 6:00 in the morning on March 15. They were delivered to regional police station and detained according to article 208 [suspicion of participation in a crime punishable by jail time]. In total 32 members of "Right Sector" and 6 pro-Russian individuals were delivered to police stations. Rest of the translated report.
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Just to add some numbers:
That's some pretty big fluctuation. How much was it really? The 50k seems to come from France 24.
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On March 16 2014 07:13 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 07:11 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 16 2014 07:09 m4ini wrote:On March 16 2014 07:02 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 16 2014 06:53 Gorsameth wrote:Does the west sell a lot of weapons to Russia tho? and would not selling hurt them? Genuine question. I have no idea This mostly concerns France's sale of Mistral warships destined for... Sevastopol. Was already clarified i think, some french ministerguy said that the third step in sanctions would be not to sell those warships. Can you find a link? Checking right now, don't know where i read it - gimme cpl minutes. edit: hm.. Must've dreamed it, weird. I could've sworn that in this regard i read "third step of sanctions" for the first time, guess not. Scrap what i said - still looking to make sure though, in different languages now since i don't remember what language i read it in. edit2: Ha, found it. http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/03/15/ukraine-crisis-hollande-idINDEEA2E04M20140315Show nested quote +When asked whether France would suspend a 1.2 billion euro helicopter carrier contract with Russia, Hollande told a news conference: "As far as other sanctions, notably military cooperation, that is the third level of sanctions." "some french ministerguy" being Hollande.
I don't know if Russia has paid any installments already, but assuming they have, then it's basically the French stealing money. That's not a minor grievance on France's part, and would only make matters worse.
I've noted this earlier in the thread, but at the outset of Russian forces moving into Crimea, there was confusion in both countries. The two countries are very closely tied historically, religiously, culturally, etc. in a way that goes far beyond the politics of the primary states in the European Union, or the United States; it's on a close personal level. This is why we see protests in Moscow, and it's not at all surprising. If reality says anything though, politics trumps everything, and Ukraine being the rope in a tug-of-war is not a good position to be in.
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On March 16 2014 06:43 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 06:36 Cheerio wrote:On March 16 2014 05:37 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:35 Saryph wrote:On March 16 2014 05:31 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:28 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:22 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 03:14 aksfjh wrote:On March 16 2014 02:56 Feartheguru wrote:
I feel bad for the Russian posters here, taking moderate stances, pointing out very clear hypocrisies and getting personal insults from an army of drones. Western media truly is better than Russian, they are subtle enough to make their people think they are seeing the truth and that only the other side is spreading propaganda.
The rules that govern the world isn't based on fairness, it's based on national interests. Every country gets what they can when they can. America split Kosovo off from Serbia to weaken Russia, they didn't do it 'for the peoples' right to self-determination. Now that Russia is trying to do a very similar thing, they oppose it tooth and nail because it's against their nation interests. You know what, that's hypocrisy is perfectly fine, because that's how the world has always worked, by don't be an idiot and try to claim the two situations are different because of some tiny detail. Any rational thinker would realize what Russia is doing now isn't nearly as bad as Kosovo or Iraq, since no lives are lost in their pursuit of interests. But again, western media I applaud you. There's a difference between prioritizing which genocidal country you intervene in by national interests and invading any country for the SOLE purpose of national interests. Iraq. Can people stop derailing the thread with the "But America!" argument? I'm not even american and even I notice that it keeps on happening even if it has little to do with the actual situation at hand. Even if the US would be just as bad as Russia it really wouldn't matter since this thread isn't a USA vs Russia thread, it's a thread about the the crisis in the Ukraine. You can't justify Russia's actions by the actions of the States in the past and if that's not what your intention is and you just want to write what you think about the USA's foreign policy then this simply isn't the place for it. Can anybody tell me if Putin will actually care about this? Everyone agrees what Russia is doing is wrong, not everyone agrees whether they are the "baddie" of the world or just acting like everyone else. So what's your point, rather a discussion on the part people disagree on, should we just all circlejerk about how wrong Russia is and high 5 each other? Well since quite a few posters in this thread have argued that Russia is doing the correct thing... Correct as in they are doing what they can get away with while pursing their national interests, just like what America, like it should, has done relentlessly for decades. When people accuse Russians of being evil, then naturally the response is "But America!". Seems like a very logical progression of the discussion. This is like saying stealing is actually the right thing to do if you look from your own interests perspective. And there are other thieves too! This US-hatred is making so many people incredibly short-sighted. Absolutely not, its just people saying that NATO condemning someone for invading another country on a false pretext is incredible hypocritical. I don't really see the argument as supporting Russian involvement in Ukraine, just pointing out hypocrisy.
Can you please stop doing that? This topic is not about international relations, its about one specific case. Your constant "just pointing out hypocrisy" is nothing less than thread derailment.
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On March 16 2014 07:25 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 06:43 Sub40APM wrote:On March 16 2014 06:32 zeo wrote:On March 16 2014 06:01 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On March 16 2014 05:57 Roman666 wrote:On March 16 2014 05:53 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:50 Roman666 wrote:On March 16 2014 05:46 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:41 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:31 Feartheguru wrote:
[quote]
Everyone agrees what Russia is doing is wrong, not everyone agrees whether they are the "baddie" of the world or just acting like everyone else. So what's your point, rather a discussion on the part people disagree on, should we just all circlejerk about how wrong Russia is and high 5 each other?
How the hell did you manage to COMPLETELY ignore the part about the Kosovo War? Because the point of mentioning the Kosova war is that along with Iraq, I can paint a picture of America also doing whatever it takes, right or wrong to pursue their own national interests just like Russia, I'm not getting into the pointless argument that you or whoever responded about it wants to have, when there's so much ideology here no one is being convinced of anything, Except US had no national interest in Kosovo, so your argument does not hold here. And please, can we stop the derailment with "But USA"? USA is not saint, people got it, people know it, let us stop right here, and discuss the matter at hand. Their national interest is they are weakening Serbia, a Russian ally. Really, Serbia is a Russian ally? And that is why they started accession talks with EU, right? To deny that Serbia isn't very cozy with Russia is absurd. To deny that a tiny country joining a nearly-continental economic union is a godsend for a country in terrible shape (though not as bad as Ukraine's) as Serbia is further absurd. EU isn't a political/military alliance group, as much as toy poodles like Germany and Britain would like to make it seem as such. I'm not quite sure I understood what you said. Serbia joining the EU would be good for us? Yes, of course it would be. It's just that the people running the pro-EU show in my country are a complete farce just like the ones in Ukraine. They have absolutely no idea what they are doing and try to cover up all their monumental fuckups with 'it will all be ok, we just need to get into the EU, just 10 more years'. Serbia has absolutely no plans to join NATO, though being surrounded by NATO countries means we have to just shut up and stay neutral. Everyone is perfectly fine with that. what political party are you affiliated with? You oppose the old Milosvecic party that is currently in power and signed the further EU protocols but you oppose the EU ascension which the Democrat Party signed up for. I am confused. I made a post about this a few pages back. The Democratic Party, yes. There is no problem with going into the European Union as long at it is done in a responsible fashion by responsible people. It's a very complicated situation but if you look deeper, not even that deep, just break the crust of these pro-EU parties in eastern post communist Europe you will find something that is very rotten. My own party was rotten to the core but not being in power anymore has freed us from the incredible amount of parasites and petty profiteers that built up, believe me when I say I used to spend more time hating the embarrassing people from my own ranks than anyone else. Don't think for one second every pro-EU party in Ukraine isn't corrupt as shit, especially now.
So how do you think the Croats/Poles/Slovaks got over their parasites? And what do you mean responsible people in a responsible fashion? I am genuinely curious
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I don't know if Russia has paid any installments already, but assuming they have, then it's basically the French stealing money. That's not a minor grievance on France's part, and would only make matters worse.
No, it's the french freezing money. It's absolutely no different to an asset-seize/freeze. Which the russians btw already trying to pass a law for, so i don't know what you're trying here.
To clarify: there's no difference between the french "seizing/freezing" the ships/that money and russia seizing western factories and other assets.
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Uh, they cite "Bild" as source, a german yellowpress newspaper. Take it with a grain of salt.
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3k comes from russian official sources, 50k from everyone else.
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Fine and okay, but USD rised so much in comparison to hrivna, which is pretty huge thing overall.
It was warm, sunny and windy day, I was going though local valley to subway, and when I passed a man that looks like 45-50 years old, he asked me if am going to strike on our central square. I should say that I was going on my sports trainings so I was with a big sport bag in my hands, but I answered him simply: "Yes". And than he started to try to insult me with phrases like: "yes, it could be read on ur face that u're Banderovets and moron, so much idiots and retards like u appeared recenlty". Maybe it's cause of my sunglasses? Sigh...I do understand that he was born in USSR, but this type of ppl as those guy was, kinda makes me sad, he had to hear only a single word - "yes", to start blaming someone. But ofc I realise he's very affected by some sort of massmedia, I understand that his past don't let him go other way, but it's definetely hard to find a common language with such radicals/semi-radicals, no matter who will it be, right sector or pro-russian.
One more thing, many ppl are already alarmed, and they are insulting themselves and their relatives from time to time, simple by watching TV and mass-media. Talking about me, am trying to filter all the news that I can read even in internet, checking sources and etc, and I'm watching TV only for sports events, high level sci-fi shows or popular TV shows. Don't wanna imagine what kind of person could I be while watching only a single tv channel for example, which could be ridiculously one-sided.
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On March 16 2014 08:30 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:Fine and okay, but USD rised so much in comparison to hrivna, which is pretty huge thing overall. It was warm, sunny and windy day, I was going though local valley to subway, and when I passed a man that looks like 45-50 years old, he asked me if am going to strike on our central square. I should say that I was going on my sports trainings so I was with a big sport bag in my hands, but I answered him simply: "Yes". And than he started to try to insult me with phrases like: "yes, it could be read on ur face that u're Banderovets and moron, so much idiots and retards like u appeared recenlty". Maybe it's cause of my sunglasses? Sigh...I do understand that he was born in USSR, but this type of ppl as those guy was, kinda makes me sad, he had to hear only a single word - "yes", to start blaming someone. But ofc I realise he's very affected by some sort of massmedia, I understand that his past don't let him go other way, but it's definetely hard to find a common language with such radicals/semi-radicals, no matter who will it be, right sector or pro-russian.
Yes, thats a sad situation indeed, especially for people who dont know how to access the internet -- not that it always helps but at least you can find a variety of views if you wanted. I guess its tough for that generation too though because if you think about it they watched collapse of USSR, then the shitining of Ukraine, then 04, then this and now who knows what next, psychologically it must be tiring.
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Russian Federation1401 Posts
My grandmother who still lives in Kharkov claims that if she survived the Blockade, she will survive this no problem. The only really sad thing is that so many people are angry at each other nowadays.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://cs7002.vk.me/c540103/v540103526/57151/Q-TRCNusS8g.jpg)
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