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On March 16 2014 08:15 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 07:25 zeo wrote:On March 16 2014 06:43 Sub40APM wrote:On March 16 2014 06:32 zeo wrote:On March 16 2014 06:01 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On March 16 2014 05:57 Roman666 wrote:On March 16 2014 05:53 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:50 Roman666 wrote:On March 16 2014 05:46 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:41 SilentchiLL wrote:
[quote]
How the hell did you manage to COMPLETELY ignore the part about the Kosovo War? Because the point of mentioning the Kosova war is that along with Iraq, I can paint a picture of America also doing whatever it takes, right or wrong to pursue their own national interests just like Russia, I'm not getting into the pointless argument that you or whoever responded about it wants to have, when there's so much ideology here no one is being convinced of anything, Except US had no national interest in Kosovo, so your argument does not hold here. And please, can we stop the derailment with "But USA"? USA is not saint, people got it, people know it, let us stop right here, and discuss the matter at hand. Their national interest is they are weakening Serbia, a Russian ally. Really, Serbia is a Russian ally? And that is why they started accession talks with EU, right? To deny that Serbia isn't very cozy with Russia is absurd. To deny that a tiny country joining a nearly-continental economic union is a godsend for a country in terrible shape (though not as bad as Ukraine's) as Serbia is further absurd. EU isn't a political/military alliance group, as much as toy poodles like Germany and Britain would like to make it seem as such. I'm not quite sure I understood what you said. Serbia joining the EU would be good for us? Yes, of course it would be. It's just that the people running the pro-EU show in my country are a complete farce just like the ones in Ukraine. They have absolutely no idea what they are doing and try to cover up all their monumental fuckups with 'it will all be ok, we just need to get into the EU, just 10 more years'. Serbia has absolutely no plans to join NATO, though being surrounded by NATO countries means we have to just shut up and stay neutral. Everyone is perfectly fine with that. what political party are you affiliated with? You oppose the old Milosvecic party that is currently in power and signed the further EU protocols but you oppose the EU ascension which the Democrat Party signed up for. I am confused. I made a post about this a few pages back. The Democratic Party, yes. There is no problem with going into the European Union as long at it is done in a responsible fashion by responsible people. It's a very complicated situation but if you look deeper, not even that deep, just break the crust of these pro-EU parties in eastern post communist Europe you will find something that is very rotten. My own party was rotten to the core but not being in power anymore has freed us from the incredible amount of parasites and petty profiteers that built up, believe me when I say I used to spend more time hating the embarrassing people from my own ranks than anyone else. Don't think for one second every pro-EU party in Ukraine isn't corrupt as shit, especially now. So how do you think the Croats/Poles/Slovaks got over their parasites? And what do you mean responsible people in a responsible fashion? I am genuinely curious
Croats never got rid of their parasites and also entered EU way to early because of them.
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On March 16 2014 06:05 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 06:02 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:58 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:55 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:46 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:41 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:31 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:28 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:22 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 03:14 aksfjh wrote:
[quote]
There's a difference between prioritizing which genocidal country you intervene in by national interests and invading any country for the SOLE purpose of national interests.
Iraq. Can people stop derailing the thread with the "But America!" argument? I'm not even american and even I notice that it keeps on happening even if it has little to do with the actual situation at hand. Even if the US would be just as bad as Russia it really wouldn't matter since this thread isn't a USA vs Russia thread, it's a thread about the the crisis in the Ukraine. You can't justify Russia's actions by the actions of the States in the past and if that's not what your intention is and you just want to write what you think about the USA's foreign policy then this simply isn't the place for it. Can anybody tell me if Putin will actually care about this? Everyone agrees what Russia is doing is wrong, not everyone agrees whether they are the "baddie" of the world or just acting like everyone else. So what's your point, rather a discussion on the part people disagree on, should we just all circlejerk about how wrong Russia is and high 5 each other? How the hell did you manage to COMPLETELY ignore the part about the Kosovo War? I'm not getting into the pointless argument that you or whoever responded about it wants to have, when there's so much ideology here no one is being convinced of anything, So you realized that you fucked up hard when you said that Russia's invasion of the Ukraine isn't "nearly as bad as Kosovo" because it was probably the one war you can't call the US as evil imperialists out for and now try to say that you don't want to get into it because there's too much ideology involved? Since you obviously didn't know anything about the war I hope that you atleast read the wikipedia link I provided you with by now, everybody likes to bash the US sometimes, but please atleast stick to wars you know something about before condemning the US for them. Thanks for putting words in my mouth, you must feel so accomplished now LOL. I directly quoted you.On March 16 2014 02:56 Feartheguru wrote:
Any rational thinker would realize what Russia is doing now isn't nearly as bad as Kosovo or Iraq, since no lives are lost in their pursuit of interests. But again, western media I applaud you. In case you haven't noticed the no lives being lost part isn't true either since Russia is atleast partially responsible for what Yanukovich did by backing him before and during the revolution already. By that logic, the US is at least partially responsible for much of the Islamic terrorism in the world for backing Gulf Arab states and other nations that breed and support Islamic terrorism.......
The US is partially responsible for that for not paying attention or not paying enough attention to what the oil sheikhs were doing with all that money the US and Europe and Japan were pouring into their bank accounts.
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/03/pathetic-lives-of-putins-american-dupes.html
The demise of communism has left a void in the place where socialist fervor once animated the Soviet dupes. In the absence of any positive motivating force, Putin’s Russia, which has positioned itself as America’s main rival, has sponged up whatever motley collection of outsiders it can find. Russia is not the vessel for their ideological fantasies, but merely a placeholder for their accumulated discontent.
Meanwhile the Politburo in Beijing is delighted as can be that Russia is focusing on its western border rather than trying to shore up the 6 million Russians in the Far East who have 90 million Chinese right over the border...
On March 16 2014 06:13 Roman666 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 06:06 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 06:02 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:58 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:55 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:46 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:41 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:31 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:28 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:22 Feartheguru wrote:
[quote]
Iraq.
Can people stop derailing the thread with the "But America!" argument? I'm not even american and even I notice that it keeps on happening even if it has little to do with the actual situation at hand. Even if the US would be just as bad as Russia it really wouldn't matter since this thread isn't a USA vs Russia thread, it's a thread about the the crisis in the Ukraine. You can't justify Russia's actions by the actions of the States in the past and if that's not what your intention is and you just want to write what you think about the USA's foreign policy then this simply isn't the place for it. Can anybody tell me if Putin will actually care about this? Everyone agrees what Russia is doing is wrong, not everyone agrees whether they are the "baddie" of the world or just acting like everyone else. So what's your point, rather a discussion on the part people disagree on, should we just all circlejerk about how wrong Russia is and high 5 each other? How the hell did you manage to COMPLETELY ignore the part about the Kosovo War? I'm not getting into the pointless argument that you or whoever responded about it wants to have, when there's so much ideology here no one is being convinced of anything, So you realized that you fucked up hard when you said that Russia's invasion of the Ukraine isn't "nearly as bad as Kosovo" because it was probably the one war you can't call the US as evil imperialists out for and now try to say that you don't want to get into it because there's too much ideology involved? Since you obviously didn't know anything about the war I hope that you atleast read the wikipedia link I provided you with by now, everybody likes to bash the US sometimes, but please atleast stick to wars you know something about before condemning the US for them. Thanks for putting words in my mouth, you must feel so accomplished now LOL. I directly quoted you.On March 16 2014 02:56 Feartheguru wrote:
Any rational thinker would realize what Russia is doing now isn't nearly as bad as Kosovo or Iraq, since no lives are lost in their pursuit of interests. But again, western media I applaud you. In case you haven't noticed the no lives being lost part isn't true either since Russia is atleast partially responsible for what Yanukovich did by backing him before and during the revolution already. In case you haven't noticed you said more than what you quoted. So if a country backs a leader than kills some citizens, the country that backed the leader is partially responsible? That's rich. I guess you agree every major country in the world is responsible for endless deaths and Russia is doing nothing out of the ordinary. The fact that is nothing out of the ordinary does not make it right.
It absolutely is out of the ordinary despite what America-haters would have you believe, since the dissolution of the USSR there have been fewer wars in the world and fewer deaths from war. It's no coincidence that Russia weakened and feeling that it was weak resulted in less wars, and Russia feeling strong again has brought more conflicts Russia is directly or indirectly participating in.
They also like to ignore the fact that well more than 3/4 of the dead civilians in Iraq were killed by jihadis not Americans, and Americans were dying fighting those jihadis. But it's not even worth arguing about because the US invaded Iraq so it's at fault 100% and you're not going to convince anyone who thinks so otherwise.
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On March 16 2014 12:34 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/03/pathetic-lives-of-putins-american-dupes.html
The demise of communism has left a void in the place where socialist fervor once animated the Soviet dupes. In the absence of any positive motivating force, Putin’s Russia, which has positioned itself as America’s main rival, has sponged up whatever motley collection of outsiders it can find. Russia is not the vessel for their ideological fantasies, but merely a placeholder for their accumulated discontent. Meanwhile the Politburo in Beijing is delighted as can be that Russia is focusing on its western border rather than trying to shore up the 6 million Russians in the Far East who have 90 million Chinese right over the border...
Yes, its going to be pretty interesting to see what happens if "Siberian Self Defense Units" in Chinese uniforms start 'defending' the 'locals' so they can have a referendum. After all, historically all of that land belong to the Chinese...
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On March 16 2014 05:26 xM(Z wrote:
the only arguments presented here are:
- US is right because its good
- Russia is wrong because its bad
and that's pretty much it. i feel bad for ukrainians.
That's not entirely unjustified, at least as far as Europe is concerned.
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On March 16 2014 12:34 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 06:05 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On March 16 2014 06:02 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:58 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:55 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:46 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:41 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:31 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:28 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:22 Feartheguru wrote:
[quote]
Iraq.
Can people stop derailing the thread with the "But America!" argument? I'm not even american and even I notice that it keeps on happening even if it has little to do with the actual situation at hand. Even if the US would be just as bad as Russia it really wouldn't matter since this thread isn't a USA vs Russia thread, it's a thread about the the crisis in the Ukraine. You can't justify Russia's actions by the actions of the States in the past and if that's not what your intention is and you just want to write what you think about the USA's foreign policy then this simply isn't the place for it. Can anybody tell me if Putin will actually care about this? Everyone agrees what Russia is doing is wrong, not everyone agrees whether they are the "baddie" of the world or just acting like everyone else. So what's your point, rather a discussion on the part people disagree on, should we just all circlejerk about how wrong Russia is and high 5 each other? How the hell did you manage to COMPLETELY ignore the part about the Kosovo War? I'm not getting into the pointless argument that you or whoever responded about it wants to have, when there's so much ideology here no one is being convinced of anything, So you realized that you fucked up hard when you said that Russia's invasion of the Ukraine isn't "nearly as bad as Kosovo" because it was probably the one war you can't call the US as evil imperialists out for and now try to say that you don't want to get into it because there's too much ideology involved? Since you obviously didn't know anything about the war I hope that you atleast read the wikipedia link I provided you with by now, everybody likes to bash the US sometimes, but please atleast stick to wars you know something about before condemning the US for them. Thanks for putting words in my mouth, you must feel so accomplished now LOL. I directly quoted you.On March 16 2014 02:56 Feartheguru wrote:
Any rational thinker would realize what Russia is doing now isn't nearly as bad as Kosovo or Iraq, since no lives are lost in their pursuit of interests. But again, western media I applaud you. In case you haven't noticed the no lives being lost part isn't true either since Russia is atleast partially responsible for what Yanukovich did by backing him before and during the revolution already. By that logic, the US is at least partially responsible for much of the Islamic terrorism in the world for backing Gulf Arab states and other nations that breed and support Islamic terrorism....... The US is partially responsible for that for not paying attention or not paying enough attention to what the oil sheikhs were doing with all that money the US and Europe and Japan were pouring into their bank accounts. Show nested quote +http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/03/pathetic-lives-of-putins-american-dupes.html
The demise of communism has left a void in the place where socialist fervor once animated the Soviet dupes. In the absence of any positive motivating force, Putin’s Russia, which has positioned itself as America’s main rival, has sponged up whatever motley collection of outsiders it can find. Russia is not the vessel for their ideological fantasies, but merely a placeholder for their accumulated discontent. Meanwhile the Politburo in Beijing is delighted as can be that Russia is focusing on its western border rather than trying to shore up the 6 million Russians in the Far East who have 90 million Chinese right over the border... Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 06:13 Roman666 wrote:On March 16 2014 06:06 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 06:02 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:58 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:55 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:46 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:41 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:31 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:28 SilentchiLL wrote:
[quote]
Can people stop derailing the thread with the "But America!" argument?
I'm not even american and even I notice that it keeps on happening even if it has little to do with the actual situation at hand.
Even if the US would be just as bad as Russia it really wouldn't matter since this thread isn't a USA vs Russia thread, it's a thread about the the crisis in the Ukraine.
You can't justify Russia's actions by the actions of the States in the past and if that's not what your intention is and you just want to write what you think about the USA's foreign policy then this simply isn't the place for it.
[quote]
Can anybody tell me if Putin will actually care about this? Everyone agrees what Russia is doing is wrong, not everyone agrees whether they are the "baddie" of the world or just acting like everyone else. So what's your point, rather a discussion on the part people disagree on, should we just all circlejerk about how wrong Russia is and high 5 each other? How the hell did you manage to COMPLETELY ignore the part about the Kosovo War? I'm not getting into the pointless argument that you or whoever responded about it wants to have, when there's so much ideology here no one is being convinced of anything, So you realized that you fucked up hard when you said that Russia's invasion of the Ukraine isn't "nearly as bad as Kosovo" because it was probably the one war you can't call the US as evil imperialists out for and now try to say that you don't want to get into it because there's too much ideology involved? Since you obviously didn't know anything about the war I hope that you atleast read the wikipedia link I provided you with by now, everybody likes to bash the US sometimes, but please atleast stick to wars you know something about before condemning the US for them. Thanks for putting words in my mouth, you must feel so accomplished now LOL. I directly quoted you.On March 16 2014 02:56 Feartheguru wrote:
Any rational thinker would realize what Russia is doing now isn't nearly as bad as Kosovo or Iraq, since no lives are lost in their pursuit of interests. But again, western media I applaud you. In case you haven't noticed the no lives being lost part isn't true either since Russia is atleast partially responsible for what Yanukovich did by backing him before and during the revolution already. In case you haven't noticed you said more than what you quoted. So if a country backs a leader than kills some citizens, the country that backed the leader is partially responsible? That's rich. I guess you agree every major country in the world is responsible for endless deaths and Russia is doing nothing out of the ordinary. The fact that is nothing out of the ordinary does not make it right. It absolutely is out of the ordinary despite what America-haters would have you believe, since the dissolution of the USSR there have been fewer wars in the world and fewer deaths from war. It's no coincidence that Russia weakened and feeling that it was weak resulted in less wars, and Russia feeling strong again has brought more conflicts Russia is directly or indirectly participating in. They also like to ignore the fact that well more than 3/4 of the dead civilians in Iraq were killed by jihadis not Americans, and Americans were dying fighting those jihadis. But it's not even worth arguing about because the US invaded Iraq so it's at fault 100% and you're not going to convince anyone who thinks so otherwise.
The US is DIRECTLY responsible for much of the Islamist Terrorism from things like
-Staging a coup on a democratically elected Iranian govt and installing an extremely unpopular autocrat which led to the Islamist revolution that resulted in the current government of Iran
-Funding and directly supporting the Mujahideen, who would eventually evolve into many of the terrorist groups prominent today, including Osama Bin Laden
-Backing Iraq, under the rule of Sadam Hussein, with large amounts of weapons, cash, and intelligence while taking the nation off the "nations that were "supporting terrorism" during its war with Iran
Simply put, Russia isn't bombing the Crimea, the US bombed Kosovo, that in of it self puts the two situations in completely different levels of intensity and military escalation. That's not to say that things might not reach that point, but at the moment things have yet to get to that point.
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On March 16 2014 14:40 Kupon3ss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 12:34 DeepElemBlues wrote:On March 16 2014 06:05 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On March 16 2014 06:02 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:58 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:55 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:46 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:41 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:31 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:28 SilentchiLL wrote:
[quote]
Can people stop derailing the thread with the "But America!" argument?
I'm not even american and even I notice that it keeps on happening even if it has little to do with the actual situation at hand.
Even if the US would be just as bad as Russia it really wouldn't matter since this thread isn't a USA vs Russia thread, it's a thread about the the crisis in the Ukraine.
You can't justify Russia's actions by the actions of the States in the past and if that's not what your intention is and you just want to write what you think about the USA's foreign policy then this simply isn't the place for it.
[quote]
Can anybody tell me if Putin will actually care about this? Everyone agrees what Russia is doing is wrong, not everyone agrees whether they are the "baddie" of the world or just acting like everyone else. So what's your point, rather a discussion on the part people disagree on, should we just all circlejerk about how wrong Russia is and high 5 each other? How the hell did you manage to COMPLETELY ignore the part about the Kosovo War? I'm not getting into the pointless argument that you or whoever responded about it wants to have, when there's so much ideology here no one is being convinced of anything, So you realized that you fucked up hard when you said that Russia's invasion of the Ukraine isn't "nearly as bad as Kosovo" because it was probably the one war you can't call the US as evil imperialists out for and now try to say that you don't want to get into it because there's too much ideology involved? Since you obviously didn't know anything about the war I hope that you atleast read the wikipedia link I provided you with by now, everybody likes to bash the US sometimes, but please atleast stick to wars you know something about before condemning the US for them. Thanks for putting words in my mouth, you must feel so accomplished now LOL. I directly quoted you.On March 16 2014 02:56 Feartheguru wrote:
Any rational thinker would realize what Russia is doing now isn't nearly as bad as Kosovo or Iraq, since no lives are lost in their pursuit of interests. But again, western media I applaud you. In case you haven't noticed the no lives being lost part isn't true either since Russia is atleast partially responsible for what Yanukovich did by backing him before and during the revolution already. By that logic, the US is at least partially responsible for much of the Islamic terrorism in the world for backing Gulf Arab states and other nations that breed and support Islamic terrorism....... The US is partially responsible for that for not paying attention or not paying enough attention to what the oil sheikhs were doing with all that money the US and Europe and Japan were pouring into their bank accounts. http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/03/pathetic-lives-of-putins-american-dupes.html
The demise of communism has left a void in the place where socialist fervor once animated the Soviet dupes. In the absence of any positive motivating force, Putin’s Russia, which has positioned itself as America’s main rival, has sponged up whatever motley collection of outsiders it can find. Russia is not the vessel for their ideological fantasies, but merely a placeholder for their accumulated discontent. Meanwhile the Politburo in Beijing is delighted as can be that Russia is focusing on its western border rather than trying to shore up the 6 million Russians in the Far East who have 90 million Chinese right over the border... On March 16 2014 06:13 Roman666 wrote:On March 16 2014 06:06 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 06:02 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:58 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:55 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:46 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:41 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:31 Feartheguru wrote:
[quote]
Everyone agrees what Russia is doing is wrong, not everyone agrees whether they are the "baddie" of the world or just acting like everyone else. So what's your point, rather a discussion on the part people disagree on, should we just all circlejerk about how wrong Russia is and high 5 each other?
How the hell did you manage to COMPLETELY ignore the part about the Kosovo War? I'm not getting into the pointless argument that you or whoever responded about it wants to have, when there's so much ideology here no one is being convinced of anything, So you realized that you fucked up hard when you said that Russia's invasion of the Ukraine isn't "nearly as bad as Kosovo" because it was probably the one war you can't call the US as evil imperialists out for and now try to say that you don't want to get into it because there's too much ideology involved? Since you obviously didn't know anything about the war I hope that you atleast read the wikipedia link I provided you with by now, everybody likes to bash the US sometimes, but please atleast stick to wars you know something about before condemning the US for them. Thanks for putting words in my mouth, you must feel so accomplished now LOL. I directly quoted you.On March 16 2014 02:56 Feartheguru wrote:
Any rational thinker would realize what Russia is doing now isn't nearly as bad as Kosovo or Iraq, since no lives are lost in their pursuit of interests. But again, western media I applaud you. In case you haven't noticed the no lives being lost part isn't true either since Russia is atleast partially responsible for what Yanukovich did by backing him before and during the revolution already. In case you haven't noticed you said more than what you quoted. So if a country backs a leader than kills some citizens, the country that backed the leader is partially responsible? That's rich. I guess you agree every major country in the world is responsible for endless deaths and Russia is doing nothing out of the ordinary. The fact that is nothing out of the ordinary does not make it right. It absolutely is out of the ordinary despite what America-haters would have you believe, since the dissolution of the USSR there have been fewer wars in the world and fewer deaths from war. It's no coincidence that Russia weakened and feeling that it was weak resulted in less wars, and Russia feeling strong again has brought more conflicts Russia is directly or indirectly participating in. They also like to ignore the fact that well more than 3/4 of the dead civilians in Iraq were killed by jihadis not Americans, and Americans were dying fighting those jihadis. But it's not even worth arguing about because the US invaded Iraq so it's at fault 100% and you're not going to convince anyone who thinks so otherwise. The US is DIRECTLY responsible for much of the Islamist Terrorism from things like -Staging a coup on a democratically elected Iranian govt and installing an extremely unpopular autocrat which led to the Islamist revolution that resulted in the current government of Iran -Funding and directly supporting the Mujahideen, who would eventually evolve into many of the terrorist groups prominent today, including Osama Bin Laden -Backing Iraq, under the rule of Sadam Hussein, with large amounts of weapons, cash, and intelligence while taking the nation off the "nations that were "supporting terrorism" during its war with Iran Simply put, Russia isn't bombing the Crimea, the US bombed Kosovo, that in of it self puts the two situations in completely different levels of intensity and military escalation. That's not to say that things might not reach that point, but at the moment things have yet to get to that point.
#1 is true. But the US goes with its interests, of course all the "democracy" talk is just justifications for things. A power-hungry monarch cozy with us was highly preferable to a democratic but independent (of foreign influence) Iranian regime.
#2 Again, our interests. Our interest was for working against the Soviet Union, even if it meant supporting Islamic extremists and consequentially opposing a secular, actually-developing Afghanistan. But still, we support countries that support terrorists, because they play to our interests, like Saudi Arabia, Qatar, etc. If they didn't, let's just say they'd be a lot worse off.
And the US was probably right in doing #3. Last I checked, Iraq opposed Islamic extremism more than most countries could claim back then. Even now, Iraq is fighting off hordes of foreign terrorists that went into the country during the Iraq War. Just recently, Nuri Al-Maliki condemned Saudi Arabia and others for their support of terrorism. But, I didn't realize Iraq supported Al Qaeda, when they're the reason why the Islamic Revolution hasn't taken over the Mideast. The only people who believe they supported Al Qaeda are the people who buy the bullshit about WMDs and the Iraqis supporting Iraq (both complete hogwash) used to justify the 2003 invasion. The Iran-Iraq War was literally a war against the modern era's (history's?) craziest jihadi.
As for weapons, the Iraqis got almost all their weapons from France and USSR, not USA. lol. I think the USA made some donation of leftover Hueys and chemical gases from Vietnam and that was about it. Iranians were well-stocked with US weapons though heh, especially from the Shah's time but during the war as well. We kind of played the two countries against each other, because we didn't like either. Iran for obvious reasons, and Hussein was a strong player in the Mideast who didn't want to play ball, so we were going to wreck the country and take him out, which we did over the course of the past 2 decades. If he swore fealty though, the past 25 years of Iraqi history could have been entirely avoided, and we'd have our first Mideastern friend that wasn't Israel, who needs us 100%, or some Gulf Arab country that supports terrorists.
Now the current guy is cozy with Iran and comes from a terrorist organization (that was Islamic Dawa's origins), and is pretty despotic.
The lack of war in Crimea/Ukraine makes it monumentally different from 1998 in the Kosovo War. The difference between war and not war should not be undermined. I guess it's hard to understand for those Call of Duty kids, but war is extremely detrimental in every manner imaginable for the place it's taking place in. Right now, life is relatively the usual in Ukraine. War is an ugly thing, and the Russians know it better than most. Russia can easily roll in the tanks and take care of business with little effort. The restraint they're showing is rarely seen in the history of powerful nations. I know Bush would have turned some cities into parking lots by now.
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On March 16 2014 14:40 Kupon3ss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 12:34 DeepElemBlues wrote:On March 16 2014 06:05 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On March 16 2014 06:02 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:58 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:55 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:46 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:41 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:31 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:28 SilentchiLL wrote:
[quote]
Can people stop derailing the thread with the "But America!" argument?
I'm not even american and even I notice that it keeps on happening even if it has little to do with the actual situation at hand.
Even if the US would be just as bad as Russia it really wouldn't matter since this thread isn't a USA vs Russia thread, it's a thread about the the crisis in the Ukraine.
You can't justify Russia's actions by the actions of the States in the past and if that's not what your intention is and you just want to write what you think about the USA's foreign policy then this simply isn't the place for it.
[quote]
Can anybody tell me if Putin will actually care about this? Everyone agrees what Russia is doing is wrong, not everyone agrees whether they are the "baddie" of the world or just acting like everyone else. So what's your point, rather a discussion on the part people disagree on, should we just all circlejerk about how wrong Russia is and high 5 each other? How the hell did you manage to COMPLETELY ignore the part about the Kosovo War? I'm not getting into the pointless argument that you or whoever responded about it wants to have, when there's so much ideology here no one is being convinced of anything, So you realized that you fucked up hard when you said that Russia's invasion of the Ukraine isn't "nearly as bad as Kosovo" because it was probably the one war you can't call the US as evil imperialists out for and now try to say that you don't want to get into it because there's too much ideology involved? Since you obviously didn't know anything about the war I hope that you atleast read the wikipedia link I provided you with by now, everybody likes to bash the US sometimes, but please atleast stick to wars you know something about before condemning the US for them. Thanks for putting words in my mouth, you must feel so accomplished now LOL. I directly quoted you.On March 16 2014 02:56 Feartheguru wrote:
Any rational thinker would realize what Russia is doing now isn't nearly as bad as Kosovo or Iraq, since no lives are lost in their pursuit of interests. But again, western media I applaud you. In case you haven't noticed the no lives being lost part isn't true either since Russia is atleast partially responsible for what Yanukovich did by backing him before and during the revolution already. By that logic, the US is at least partially responsible for much of the Islamic terrorism in the world for backing Gulf Arab states and other nations that breed and support Islamic terrorism....... The US is partially responsible for that for not paying attention or not paying enough attention to what the oil sheikhs were doing with all that money the US and Europe and Japan were pouring into their bank accounts. http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/03/pathetic-lives-of-putins-american-dupes.html
The demise of communism has left a void in the place where socialist fervor once animated the Soviet dupes. In the absence of any positive motivating force, Putin’s Russia, which has positioned itself as America’s main rival, has sponged up whatever motley collection of outsiders it can find. Russia is not the vessel for their ideological fantasies, but merely a placeholder for their accumulated discontent. Meanwhile the Politburo in Beijing is delighted as can be that Russia is focusing on its western border rather than trying to shore up the 6 million Russians in the Far East who have 90 million Chinese right over the border... On March 16 2014 06:13 Roman666 wrote:On March 16 2014 06:06 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 06:02 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:58 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:55 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:46 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:41 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:31 Feartheguru wrote:
[quote]
Everyone agrees what Russia is doing is wrong, not everyone agrees whether they are the "baddie" of the world or just acting like everyone else. So what's your point, rather a discussion on the part people disagree on, should we just all circlejerk about how wrong Russia is and high 5 each other?
How the hell did you manage to COMPLETELY ignore the part about the Kosovo War? I'm not getting into the pointless argument that you or whoever responded about it wants to have, when there's so much ideology here no one is being convinced of anything, So you realized that you fucked up hard when you said that Russia's invasion of the Ukraine isn't "nearly as bad as Kosovo" because it was probably the one war you can't call the US as evil imperialists out for and now try to say that you don't want to get into it because there's too much ideology involved? Since you obviously didn't know anything about the war I hope that you atleast read the wikipedia link I provided you with by now, everybody likes to bash the US sometimes, but please atleast stick to wars you know something about before condemning the US for them. Thanks for putting words in my mouth, you must feel so accomplished now LOL. I directly quoted you.On March 16 2014 02:56 Feartheguru wrote:
Any rational thinker would realize what Russia is doing now isn't nearly as bad as Kosovo or Iraq, since no lives are lost in their pursuit of interests. But again, western media I applaud you. In case you haven't noticed the no lives being lost part isn't true either since Russia is atleast partially responsible for what Yanukovich did by backing him before and during the revolution already. In case you haven't noticed you said more than what you quoted. So if a country backs a leader than kills some citizens, the country that backed the leader is partially responsible? That's rich. I guess you agree every major country in the world is responsible for endless deaths and Russia is doing nothing out of the ordinary. The fact that is nothing out of the ordinary does not make it right. It absolutely is out of the ordinary despite what America-haters would have you believe, since the dissolution of the USSR there have been fewer wars in the world and fewer deaths from war. It's no coincidence that Russia weakened and feeling that it was weak resulted in less wars, and Russia feeling strong again has brought more conflicts Russia is directly or indirectly participating in. They also like to ignore the fact that well more than 3/4 of the dead civilians in Iraq were killed by jihadis not Americans, and Americans were dying fighting those jihadis. But it's not even worth arguing about because the US invaded Iraq so it's at fault 100% and you're not going to convince anyone who thinks so otherwise. The US is DIRECTLY responsible for much of the Islamist Terrorism from things like -Staging a coup on a democratically elected Iranian govt and installing an extremely unpopular autocrat which led to the Islamist revolution that resulted in the current government of Iran -Funding and directly supporting the Mujahideen, who would eventually evolve into many of the terrorist groups prominent today, including Osama Bin Laden -Backing Iraq, under the rule of Sadam Hussein, with large amounts of weapons, cash, and intelligence while taking the nation off the "nations that were "supporting terrorism" during its war with Iran Simply put, Russia isn't bombing the Crimea, the US bombed Kosovo, that in of it self puts the two situations in completely different levels of intensity and military escalation. That's not to say that things might not reach that point, but at the moment things have yet to get to that point.
Mujahideen funding was a direct result of Soviet involvement into afghanistan(not exactly funding terrorists as much as funding warlords to fight the Soviets instead of allowing Afghanistan to fall to the Soviets). The US backed a lot of totarlian and extremist military groups under the name of containment. Assuming little to no state was better than a communist state.
Iranian coup was done by the UK and US, the UK got the US on board by convincing them that the Iranian state was falling into Soviet hands, and well lets face it interests in Europe didn't care for the nationalization of the oil industry in Iran.Backing Iraq could be said of the US CCCP France and quite a few nations, the fact of the matter was the US didn't have an ultra cozy relationship with Saddam after all his party had a subtext of communism. The Gulf war was just an oddity in trying to keep US interests in the area after Saddam became anti islamist to get support. Kinda sad what meddling nations get. After all Iran was before the revolution the Shah backed by the US was unlike most absolute rules funded by the US brought Iran into quite a bit of prosperity(although like the rest of US installed government had an underside of corruption and brutality) and was moving it towards more social liberal stances, which lead to the revolution.
Either way the middle east got fucked up by european imperialism a bit of us imperialism and w.e you count what the CCCP did back in the days, i guess conquering. Saying it's not the US' fault is being short sighted but Moscow's involvement in the region certainly didn't help.
Anyways yes it's different the US military involvement in Kosovo escalated much quicker as opposed to w.e you call what Russia is currently doing in Crimea.
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On March 16 2014 15:38 semantics wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 14:40 Kupon3ss wrote:On March 16 2014 12:34 DeepElemBlues wrote:On March 16 2014 06:05 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On March 16 2014 06:02 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:58 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:55 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:46 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:41 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:31 Feartheguru wrote:
[quote]
Everyone agrees what Russia is doing is wrong, not everyone agrees whether they are the "baddie" of the world or just acting like everyone else. So what's your point, rather a discussion on the part people disagree on, should we just all circlejerk about how wrong Russia is and high 5 each other?
How the hell did you manage to COMPLETELY ignore the part about the Kosovo War? I'm not getting into the pointless argument that you or whoever responded about it wants to have, when there's so much ideology here no one is being convinced of anything, So you realized that you fucked up hard when you said that Russia's invasion of the Ukraine isn't "nearly as bad as Kosovo" because it was probably the one war you can't call the US as evil imperialists out for and now try to say that you don't want to get into it because there's too much ideology involved? Since you obviously didn't know anything about the war I hope that you atleast read the wikipedia link I provided you with by now, everybody likes to bash the US sometimes, but please atleast stick to wars you know something about before condemning the US for them. Thanks for putting words in my mouth, you must feel so accomplished now LOL. I directly quoted you.On March 16 2014 02:56 Feartheguru wrote:
Any rational thinker would realize what Russia is doing now isn't nearly as bad as Kosovo or Iraq, since no lives are lost in their pursuit of interests. But again, western media I applaud you. In case you haven't noticed the no lives being lost part isn't true either since Russia is atleast partially responsible for what Yanukovich did by backing him before and during the revolution already. By that logic, the US is at least partially responsible for much of the Islamic terrorism in the world for backing Gulf Arab states and other nations that breed and support Islamic terrorism....... The US is partially responsible for that for not paying attention or not paying enough attention to what the oil sheikhs were doing with all that money the US and Europe and Japan were pouring into their bank accounts. http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/03/pathetic-lives-of-putins-american-dupes.html
The demise of communism has left a void in the place where socialist fervor once animated the Soviet dupes. In the absence of any positive motivating force, Putin’s Russia, which has positioned itself as America’s main rival, has sponged up whatever motley collection of outsiders it can find. Russia is not the vessel for their ideological fantasies, but merely a placeholder for their accumulated discontent. Meanwhile the Politburo in Beijing is delighted as can be that Russia is focusing on its western border rather than trying to shore up the 6 million Russians in the Far East who have 90 million Chinese right over the border... On March 16 2014 06:13 Roman666 wrote:On March 16 2014 06:06 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 06:02 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:58 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:55 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:46 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:41 SilentchiLL wrote:
[quote]
How the hell did you manage to COMPLETELY ignore the part about the Kosovo War? I'm not getting into the pointless argument that you or whoever responded about it wants to have, when there's so much ideology here no one is being convinced of anything, So you realized that you fucked up hard when you said that Russia's invasion of the Ukraine isn't "nearly as bad as Kosovo" because it was probably the one war you can't call the US as evil imperialists out for and now try to say that you don't want to get into it because there's too much ideology involved? Since you obviously didn't know anything about the war I hope that you atleast read the wikipedia link I provided you with by now, everybody likes to bash the US sometimes, but please atleast stick to wars you know something about before condemning the US for them. Thanks for putting words in my mouth, you must feel so accomplished now LOL. I directly quoted you.On March 16 2014 02:56 Feartheguru wrote:
Any rational thinker would realize what Russia is doing now isn't nearly as bad as Kosovo or Iraq, since no lives are lost in their pursuit of interests. But again, western media I applaud you. In case you haven't noticed the no lives being lost part isn't true either since Russia is atleast partially responsible for what Yanukovich did by backing him before and during the revolution already. In case you haven't noticed you said more than what you quoted. So if a country backs a leader than kills some citizens, the country that backed the leader is partially responsible? That's rich. I guess you agree every major country in the world is responsible for endless deaths and Russia is doing nothing out of the ordinary. The fact that is nothing out of the ordinary does not make it right. It absolutely is out of the ordinary despite what America-haters would have you believe, since the dissolution of the USSR there have been fewer wars in the world and fewer deaths from war. It's no coincidence that Russia weakened and feeling that it was weak resulted in less wars, and Russia feeling strong again has brought more conflicts Russia is directly or indirectly participating in. They also like to ignore the fact that well more than 3/4 of the dead civilians in Iraq were killed by jihadis not Americans, and Americans were dying fighting those jihadis. But it's not even worth arguing about because the US invaded Iraq so it's at fault 100% and you're not going to convince anyone who thinks so otherwise. The US is DIRECTLY responsible for much of the Islamist Terrorism from things like -Staging a coup on a democratically elected Iranian govt and installing an extremely unpopular autocrat which led to the Islamist revolution that resulted in the current government of Iran -Funding and directly supporting the Mujahideen, who would eventually evolve into many of the terrorist groups prominent today, including Osama Bin Laden -Backing Iraq, under the rule of Sadam Hussein, with large amounts of weapons, cash, and intelligence while taking the nation off the "nations that were "supporting terrorism" during its war with Iran Simply put, Russia isn't bombing the Crimea, the US bombed Kosovo, that in of it self puts the two situations in completely different levels of intensity and military escalation. That's not to say that things might not reach that point, but at the moment things have yet to get to that point. Mujahideen funding was a direct result of Soviet involvement into afghanistan(not exactly funding terrorists as much as funding warlords to fight the Soviets instead of allowing Afghanistan to fall to the Soviets). The US backed a lot of totarlian and extremist military groups under the name of containment. Assuming little to no state was better than a communist state. Iranian coup was done by the UK and US, the UK got the US on board by convincing them that the Iranian state was falling into Soviet hands, and well lets face it interests in Europe didn't care for the nationalization of the oil industry in Iran.Backing Iraq could be said of the US CCCP France and quite a few nations, the fact of the matter was the US didn't have an ultra cozy relationship with Saddam after all his party had a subtext of communism. The Gulf war was just an oddity in trying to keep US interests in the area after Saddam became anti islamist to get support. Kinda sad what meddling nations get. After all Iran was before the revolution the Shah backed by the US was unlike most absolute rules funded by the US brought Iran into quite a bit of prosperity(although like the rest of US installed government had an underside of corruption and brutality) and was moving it towards more social liberal stances, which lead to the revolution. Either way the middle east got fucked up by european imperialism a bit of us imperialism and w.e you count what the CCCP did back in the days, i guess conquering. Saying it's not the US' fault is being short sighted but Moscow's involvement in the region certainly didn't help. Anyways yes it's different the US military involvement in Kosovo escalated much quicker as opposed to w.e you call what Russia is currently doing in Crimea.
Sadam was Islamist? Huh? (I guess we should also say bin Laden was an atheist). He was your standard secular Arab nationalist leader, but was more interested in fighting Islamic extremists than Israel like his Egyptian and Syrian counterparts. And he didn't become anti-Islamist to gain support (he was always anti-Islamist afaik). In fact, he made concessions to rioting Islamists in the early 90s. One of the most visible ones is the addition of the Takbir to the Iraqi flag.
EDIT: Eh sorry for getting off-topic.
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On March 16 2014 14:37 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 05:26 xM(Z wrote:
the only arguments presented here are:
- US is right because its good
- Russia is wrong because its bad
and that's pretty much it. i feel bad for ukrainians. That's not entirely unjustified, at least as far as Europe is concerned.
if you believe that EU is an actual party/side to this then sure. (as far as EU being able to actively pursue, by itself, its own agenda, in order to expand its sphere of influence in the region).
@ JudicatorHammurabi (your reply on the same quote/305p)
well you made it into a who started first thinggie. one could easily point fingers at US because it was their $5billions that made the right sector of ukraine politics able to stage the ousting of Yanukovych after which shit went downhill.
from Yanukovych being the bad guy, US made Putin into a bad guy (with respect to ukrainian crisis).
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On March 16 2014 16:21 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 14:37 hypercube wrote:On March 16 2014 05:26 xM(Z wrote:
the only arguments presented here are:
- US is right because its good
- Russia is wrong because its bad
and that's pretty much it. i feel bad for ukrainians. That's not entirely unjustified, at least as far as Europe is concerned. if you believe that EU is an actual party/side to this then sure. (as far as EU being able to actively pursue, by itself, its own agenda, in order to expand its sphere of influence in the region). @ JudicatorHammurabi (your reply on the same quote/305p) well you made it into a who started first thinggie. one could easily point fingers at US because it was their $5billions that made the right sector of ukraine politics able to stage the ousting of Yanukovych after which shit went downhill. from Yanukovych being the bad guy, US made Putin into a bad guy (with respect to ukrainian crisis).
....what?
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On March 16 2014 16:22 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 16:21 xM(Z wrote:On March 16 2014 14:37 hypercube wrote:On March 16 2014 05:26 xM(Z wrote:
the only arguments presented here are:
- US is right because its good
- Russia is wrong because its bad
and that's pretty much it. i feel bad for ukrainians. That's not entirely unjustified, at least as far as Europe is concerned. if you believe that EU is an actual party/side to this then sure. (as far as EU being able to actively pursue, by itself, its own agenda, in order to expand its sphere of influence in the region). @ JudicatorHammurabi (your reply on the same quote/305p) well you made it into a who started first thinggie. one could easily point fingers at US because it was their $5billions that made the right sector of ukraine politics able to stage the ousting of Yanukovych after which shit went downhill. from Yanukovych being the bad guy, US made Putin into a bad guy (with respect to ukrainian crisis). ....what?
I think he's referring to Nuland's statement about giving $5 billion to Ukraine over the past couple decades.
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On March 16 2014 16:22 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 16:21 xM(Z wrote:On March 16 2014 14:37 hypercube wrote:On March 16 2014 05:26 xM(Z wrote:
the only arguments presented here are:
- US is right because its good
- Russia is wrong because its bad
and that's pretty much it. i feel bad for ukrainians. That's not entirely unjustified, at least as far as Europe is concerned. if you believe that EU is an actual party/side to this then sure. (as far as EU being able to actively pursue, by itself, its own agenda, in order to expand its sphere of influence in the region). @ JudicatorHammurabi (your reply on the same quote/305p) well you made it into a who started first thinggie. one could easily point fingers at US because it was their $5billions that made the right sector of ukraine politics able to stage the ousting of Yanukovych after which shit went downhill. from Yanukovych being the bad guy, US made Putin into a bad guy (with respect to ukrainian crisis). ....what?
Conspiracy crap taking really out of context words into suggesting money the US foreign aid and investments over the year somehow equates to money used for a coup. By that shitty out of context not factually backed up logic Putin was offering the yanukovych Ukraine "assistance" money only to take Ukraine into Russia as a puppet state of moscow. Because apparently all you have to do is take words out of context and spew random crap for it to be true. As if a person would flaunt CIA involvement for a speech at a nonprofit event.
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On March 16 2014 16:21 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 14:37 hypercube wrote:On March 16 2014 05:26 xM(Z wrote:
the only arguments presented here are:
- US is right because its good
- Russia is wrong because its bad
and that's pretty much it. i feel bad for ukrainians. That's not entirely unjustified, at least as far as Europe is concerned. if you believe that EU is an actual party/side to this then sure. (as far as EU being able to actively pursue, by itself, its own agenda, in order to expand its sphere of influence in the region).
I think it's fair to give the US some credit for the EU's positive influence. EU enlargement would have been much more difficult without the aggressive expansion of NATO in the 90s. Something that happened despite quite specific promises the US had made in 1990.
But I was mostly referring to how the US and the USSR handled their sphere of influence during their cold war in Europe.
It's easy to see that US foreign policy is hypocritical, holding Russia to standards that they often ignore themselves. But even if this is a naked power play with no side having the moral high ground (not really true from Ukraine's perspective, but certainly true between the US and Russia), which side would you prefer winning?
Looking at it from central and eastern Europe it certainly seems like a weaker Russia is a good thing. Even from Ukraine's perspective, given the current Russian leadership they would be better off with less Russian influence.
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On March 16 2014 08:15 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 07:25 zeo wrote:On March 16 2014 06:43 Sub40APM wrote:On March 16 2014 06:32 zeo wrote:On March 16 2014 06:01 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On March 16 2014 05:57 Roman666 wrote:On March 16 2014 05:53 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:50 Roman666 wrote:On March 16 2014 05:46 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:41 SilentchiLL wrote:
[quote]
How the hell did you manage to COMPLETELY ignore the part about the Kosovo War? Because the point of mentioning the Kosova war is that along with Iraq, I can paint a picture of America also doing whatever it takes, right or wrong to pursue their own national interests just like Russia, I'm not getting into the pointless argument that you or whoever responded about it wants to have, when there's so much ideology here no one is being convinced of anything, Except US had no national interest in Kosovo, so your argument does not hold here. And please, can we stop the derailment with "But USA"? USA is not saint, people got it, people know it, let us stop right here, and discuss the matter at hand. Their national interest is they are weakening Serbia, a Russian ally. Really, Serbia is a Russian ally? And that is why they started accession talks with EU, right? To deny that Serbia isn't very cozy with Russia is absurd. To deny that a tiny country joining a nearly-continental economic union is a godsend for a country in terrible shape (though not as bad as Ukraine's) as Serbia is further absurd. EU isn't a political/military alliance group, as much as toy poodles like Germany and Britain would like to make it seem as such. I'm not quite sure I understood what you said. Serbia joining the EU would be good for us? Yes, of course it would be. It's just that the people running the pro-EU show in my country are a complete farce just like the ones in Ukraine. They have absolutely no idea what they are doing and try to cover up all their monumental fuckups with 'it will all be ok, we just need to get into the EU, just 10 more years'. Serbia has absolutely no plans to join NATO, though being surrounded by NATO countries means we have to just shut up and stay neutral. Everyone is perfectly fine with that. what political party are you affiliated with? You oppose the old Milosvecic party that is currently in power and signed the further EU protocols but you oppose the EU ascension which the Democrat Party signed up for. I am confused. I made a post about this a few pages back. The Democratic Party, yes. There is no problem with going into the European Union as long at it is done in a responsible fashion by responsible people. It's a very complicated situation but if you look deeper, not even that deep, just break the crust of these pro-EU parties in eastern post communist Europe you will find something that is very rotten. My own party was rotten to the core but not being in power anymore has freed us from the incredible amount of parasites and petty profiteers that built up, believe me when I say I used to spend more time hating the embarrassing people from my own ranks than anyone else. Don't think for one second every pro-EU party in Ukraine isn't corrupt as shit, especially now. So how do you think the Croats/Poles/Slovaks got over their parasites? And what do you mean responsible people in a responsible fashion? I am genuinely curious
What do you mean? Most politicians in Poland are rotten to the core. One scandal after another, all swept under the carpet. :<
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On March 16 2014 17:23 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 08:15 Sub40APM wrote:On March 16 2014 07:25 zeo wrote:On March 16 2014 06:43 Sub40APM wrote:On March 16 2014 06:32 zeo wrote:On March 16 2014 06:01 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On March 16 2014 05:57 Roman666 wrote:On March 16 2014 05:53 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:50 Roman666 wrote:On March 16 2014 05:46 Feartheguru wrote:
[quote]
Because the point of mentioning the Kosova war is that along with Iraq, I can paint a picture of America also doing whatever it takes, right or wrong to pursue their own national interests just like Russia, I'm not getting into the pointless argument that you or whoever responded about it wants to have, when there's so much ideology here no one is being convinced of anything, Except US had no national interest in Kosovo, so your argument does not hold here. And please, can we stop the derailment with "But USA"? USA is not saint, people got it, people know it, let us stop right here, and discuss the matter at hand. Their national interest is they are weakening Serbia, a Russian ally. Really, Serbia is a Russian ally? And that is why they started accession talks with EU, right? To deny that Serbia isn't very cozy with Russia is absurd. To deny that a tiny country joining a nearly-continental economic union is a godsend for a country in terrible shape (though not as bad as Ukraine's) as Serbia is further absurd. EU isn't a political/military alliance group, as much as toy poodles like Germany and Britain would like to make it seem as such. I'm not quite sure I understood what you said. Serbia joining the EU would be good for us? Yes, of course it would be. It's just that the people running the pro-EU show in my country are a complete farce just like the ones in Ukraine. They have absolutely no idea what they are doing and try to cover up all their monumental fuckups with 'it will all be ok, we just need to get into the EU, just 10 more years'. Serbia has absolutely no plans to join NATO, though being surrounded by NATO countries means we have to just shut up and stay neutral. Everyone is perfectly fine with that. what political party are you affiliated with? You oppose the old Milosvecic party that is currently in power and signed the further EU protocols but you oppose the EU ascension which the Democrat Party signed up for. I am confused. I made a post about this a few pages back. The Democratic Party, yes. There is no problem with going into the European Union as long at it is done in a responsible fashion by responsible people. It's a very complicated situation but if you look deeper, not even that deep, just break the crust of these pro-EU parties in eastern post communist Europe you will find something that is very rotten. My own party was rotten to the core but not being in power anymore has freed us from the incredible amount of parasites and petty profiteers that built up, believe me when I say I used to spend more time hating the embarrassing people from my own ranks than anyone else. Don't think for one second every pro-EU party in Ukraine isn't corrupt as shit, especially now. So how do you think the Croats/Poles/Slovaks got over their parasites? And what do you mean responsible people in a responsible fashion? I am genuinely curious What do you mean? Most politicians in Poland are rotten to the core. One scandal after another, all swept under the carpet. :<
Corruption exists in every country in Europe -- outside of like Scandinavians I think. And obviously ex-Soviet states are generally much worse because the tradition of rule of law, free media, etc is even weaker there than anywhere else while wealth concentration is higher because unscrupulous douches of the late 80s, early 90s helped themselves to a lot of stuff. The point of joining it though is that EU normalization begins the movement from an even more corrupt state to a less corrupt state even if still corrupt state. Especially now that the Germans are pissed at certain countries who manipulated their stats to get access to that sweet sweet German tax money.
So I was just curious why/how zoe thought that Poland/Slovakia -- for whom EU ascension is an indisputable triumph -- overcame the same forces that plague all ex-Communists states and why places like Serbia/Ukraine cant.
Again, its not like once you join EU you are insta cured of all the societal problems, but at least while you are trying to join you end up jumping through a lot of hoops for the EU that otherwise your politicians will never jump through at all, and especially not in the EuroAsian Union were ideas like media independence and rule of law arent even taken nominally seriously.
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Voting starts in Crimea to decide if region leaves Ukraine for Russia - @Reuters
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Russia Today writes that a group calling itself CyberBerkut has claimed responsibility for taking down 3 NATO websites in a series of DDoS attacks.
The group criticizes NATO for stirring up turmoil in Ukraine and helping the “Kiev junta” suppress freedom of speech.
CyberBerkut claims it brought down NATO’s main website (nato.int), as well as the sites of the alliance’s cyber defense center (ccdcoe.org) and NATO’s Parliamentary Assembly (nato-pa.int).
The group, in a message posted on its website, says its members will “not allow the presence of NATO occupation on the territory of our homeland!”
The hacktivists also claimed that they are countering the action of the so-called “Tallinn cyber center” or NATO Cooperative Cyber Defence Centre of Excellence, which has been hired by the “Kiev junta” to carry out “propaganda among the Ukrainian population through the media and social networking.”
The Western cyber network, hactivists claim, is hiding behind the façade of the so-called “Maidan Cyber Sotnya” and helps “blocking objective sources of information and concealing criminal activities of those calling themselves the ‘legitimate authority.’”
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On March 16 2014 14:40 Kupon3ss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 12:34 DeepElemBlues wrote:On March 16 2014 06:05 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On March 16 2014 06:02 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:58 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:55 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:46 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:41 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:31 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:28 SilentchiLL wrote:
[quote]
Can people stop derailing the thread with the "But America!" argument?
I'm not even american and even I notice that it keeps on happening even if it has little to do with the actual situation at hand.
Even if the US would be just as bad as Russia it really wouldn't matter since this thread isn't a USA vs Russia thread, it's a thread about the the crisis in the Ukraine.
You can't justify Russia's actions by the actions of the States in the past and if that's not what your intention is and you just want to write what you think about the USA's foreign policy then this simply isn't the place for it.
[quote]
Can anybody tell me if Putin will actually care about this? Everyone agrees what Russia is doing is wrong, not everyone agrees whether they are the "baddie" of the world or just acting like everyone else. So what's your point, rather a discussion on the part people disagree on, should we just all circlejerk about how wrong Russia is and high 5 each other? How the hell did you manage to COMPLETELY ignore the part about the Kosovo War? I'm not getting into the pointless argument that you or whoever responded about it wants to have, when there's so much ideology here no one is being convinced of anything, So you realized that you fucked up hard when you said that Russia's invasion of the Ukraine isn't "nearly as bad as Kosovo" because it was probably the one war you can't call the US as evil imperialists out for and now try to say that you don't want to get into it because there's too much ideology involved? Since you obviously didn't know anything about the war I hope that you atleast read the wikipedia link I provided you with by now, everybody likes to bash the US sometimes, but please atleast stick to wars you know something about before condemning the US for them. Thanks for putting words in my mouth, you must feel so accomplished now LOL. I directly quoted you.On March 16 2014 02:56 Feartheguru wrote:
Any rational thinker would realize what Russia is doing now isn't nearly as bad as Kosovo or Iraq, since no lives are lost in their pursuit of interests. But again, western media I applaud you. In case you haven't noticed the no lives being lost part isn't true either since Russia is atleast partially responsible for what Yanukovich did by backing him before and during the revolution already. By that logic, the US is at least partially responsible for much of the Islamic terrorism in the world for backing Gulf Arab states and other nations that breed and support Islamic terrorism....... The US is partially responsible for that for not paying attention or not paying enough attention to what the oil sheikhs were doing with all that money the US and Europe and Japan were pouring into their bank accounts. http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/03/pathetic-lives-of-putins-american-dupes.html
The demise of communism has left a void in the place where socialist fervor once animated the Soviet dupes. In the absence of any positive motivating force, Putin’s Russia, which has positioned itself as America’s main rival, has sponged up whatever motley collection of outsiders it can find. Russia is not the vessel for their ideological fantasies, but merely a placeholder for their accumulated discontent. Meanwhile the Politburo in Beijing is delighted as can be that Russia is focusing on its western border rather than trying to shore up the 6 million Russians in the Far East who have 90 million Chinese right over the border... On March 16 2014 06:13 Roman666 wrote:On March 16 2014 06:06 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 06:02 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:58 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:55 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:46 Feartheguru wrote:On March 16 2014 05:41 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 16 2014 05:31 Feartheguru wrote:
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Everyone agrees what Russia is doing is wrong, not everyone agrees whether they are the "baddie" of the world or just acting like everyone else. So what's your point, rather a discussion on the part people disagree on, should we just all circlejerk about how wrong Russia is and high 5 each other?
How the hell did you manage to COMPLETELY ignore the part about the Kosovo War? I'm not getting into the pointless argument that you or whoever responded about it wants to have, when there's so much ideology here no one is being convinced of anything, So you realized that you fucked up hard when you said that Russia's invasion of the Ukraine isn't "nearly as bad as Kosovo" because it was probably the one war you can't call the US as evil imperialists out for and now try to say that you don't want to get into it because there's too much ideology involved? Since you obviously didn't know anything about the war I hope that you atleast read the wikipedia link I provided you with by now, everybody likes to bash the US sometimes, but please atleast stick to wars you know something about before condemning the US for them. Thanks for putting words in my mouth, you must feel so accomplished now LOL. I directly quoted you.On March 16 2014 02:56 Feartheguru wrote:
Any rational thinker would realize what Russia is doing now isn't nearly as bad as Kosovo or Iraq, since no lives are lost in their pursuit of interests. But again, western media I applaud you. In case you haven't noticed the no lives being lost part isn't true either since Russia is atleast partially responsible for what Yanukovich did by backing him before and during the revolution already. In case you haven't noticed you said more than what you quoted. So if a country backs a leader than kills some citizens, the country that backed the leader is partially responsible? That's rich. I guess you agree every major country in the world is responsible for endless deaths and Russia is doing nothing out of the ordinary. The fact that is nothing out of the ordinary does not make it right. It absolutely is out of the ordinary despite what America-haters would have you believe, since the dissolution of the USSR there have been fewer wars in the world and fewer deaths from war. It's no coincidence that Russia weakened and feeling that it was weak resulted in less wars, and Russia feeling strong again has brought more conflicts Russia is directly or indirectly participating in. They also like to ignore the fact that well more than 3/4 of the dead civilians in Iraq were killed by jihadis not Americans, and Americans were dying fighting those jihadis. But it's not even worth arguing about because the US invaded Iraq so it's at fault 100% and you're not going to convince anyone who thinks so otherwise. The US is DIRECTLY responsible for much of the Islamist Terrorism from things like -Staging a coup on a democratically elected Iranian govt and installing an extremely unpopular autocrat which led to the Islamist revolution that resulted in the current government of Iran -Funding and directly supporting the Mujahideen, who would eventually evolve into many of the terrorist groups prominent today, including Osama Bin Laden -Backing Iraq, under the rule of Sadam Hussein, with large amounts of weapons, cash, and intelligence while taking the nation off the "nations that were "supporting terrorism" during its war with Iran
Who cares? We're talking about Ukraine here.
Simply put, Russia isn't bombing the Crimea, the US bombed Kosovo, that in of it self puts the two situations in completely different levels of intensity and military escalation. That's not to say that things might not reach that point, but at the moment things have yet to get to that point.
That's terrible analysis. A unilateral occupation and thus forceful annexation of a territory is something that has not happened in Europe in a huge number of years. This crisis is much bigger than NATO's mission in Serbia as it will redraw Europe, and change the entire security situation for years to come. If you want to measure death toll then 9/11 is a much greater crisis than the bombing of Yugoslavia as it had 5x more deaths. And the 2011 Libyan war was more than 10x greater.
This crisis has escalated to a much greater intensity, both in terms of its impact on global politics and in terms of the sizes and capabilities of the armies currently facing each other.
Also, any statement such as yours tells Ukraine that it's wrong to show restraint and to call for the international community for assistance instead of fighting back. `Hey, there isn't shooting, so it's not worthy our attention...' But you should realize how dangerous such a message is. Do you really want to encourage Ukraine to start fighting the foreign occupation, leading the hundreds of thousands of troops poised against each other to engage each other? I think not.
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I have a gut feeling that regardless the result, Kremlin will not allow Crimea to join RF, leaving it in limbo like Transnistria. That will give it another blackmail opportunity should it has anything to negotiate with Kiev in the future.
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EPT
