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Russian Federation1953 Posts
On March 14 2014 02:44 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2014 02:41 PaleMan wrote:On March 14 2014 02:34 Nyxisto wrote:On March 14 2014 02:27 PaleMan wrote:On March 14 2014 02:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:Wow I never thought I'd see globalresearch.ca used as a source lol. in the west part of Ukrain some ppl call it Day of Sorrow and hate it cause they think their granfathers lost a war together with their allies - nazi germans and some people hate it because it represents the re-imposition of genocidal soviet rule, but hey, nazis! so that is good reason to beat up their fellow ukrainians, right? It's a good reason to have resentments against someone who called the fall of the Soviet Union 'the biggest tragedy of the 20th century" when your family died during the Holodomor, as did millions of other Ukrainians, especially in the agricultural focused West - Ukraine. It's funny how quick you are to imply that people sympathize with fascists, while for many people in the Ukraine the Soviet rule was equally bad. it was a great hunger in Russia, Ukraine and Kazakhstan - millions and millions died, it wasn't specifically pointed towards ukrainians The majority of victims where Ukrainians. How does it millions of dead Ukrainians and their children help that people in Kazakhstan died too? Also the important part is it wasn't just a hunger. It was a man made catastrophe induced by collectivization, deportation and other policies put in place by the Soviet Government.
not true, majority of victims were russians - over 5 millions
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On March 14 2014 02:49 PaleMan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2014 02:44 Nyxisto wrote:On March 14 2014 02:41 PaleMan wrote:On March 14 2014 02:34 Nyxisto wrote:On March 14 2014 02:27 PaleMan wrote:On March 14 2014 02:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:Wow I never thought I'd see globalresearch.ca used as a source lol. in the west part of Ukrain some ppl call it Day of Sorrow and hate it cause they think their granfathers lost a war together with their allies - nazi germans and some people hate it because it represents the re-imposition of genocidal soviet rule, but hey, nazis! so that is good reason to beat up their fellow ukrainians, right? It's a good reason to have resentments against someone who called the fall of the Soviet Union 'the biggest tragedy of the 20th century" when your family died during the Holodomor, as did millions of other Ukrainians, especially in the agricultural focused West - Ukraine. It's funny how quick you are to imply that people sympathize with fascists, while for many people in the Ukraine the Soviet rule was equally bad. it was a great hunger in Russia, Ukraine and Kazakhstan - millions and millions died, it wasn't specifically pointed towards ukrainians The majority of victims where Ukrainians. How does it millions of dead Ukrainians and their children help that people in Kazakhstan died too? Also the important part is it wasn't just a hunger. It was a man made catastrophe induced by collectivization, deportation and other policies put in place by the Soviet Government. not true, majority of victims were russians - over 5 millions
no reputable historian has ever concluded anything but that ukrainians were the majority of deaths during the famine of 1932-1933 and it is beyond dispute that the famine in the ukraine was largely man-made at the order of joseph stalin.
now russian propagandists may and do offer a different and ridiculous story, but 5 million russian deaths? try 1 million, another million in kazakhstan, another million spread around the non-ukraine non-russia parts of the USSR, and 3 - 5 million ukrainians.
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On March 14 2014 02:49 PaleMan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2014 02:44 Nyxisto wrote:On March 14 2014 02:41 PaleMan wrote:On March 14 2014 02:34 Nyxisto wrote:On March 14 2014 02:27 PaleMan wrote:On March 14 2014 02:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:Wow I never thought I'd see globalresearch.ca used as a source lol. in the west part of Ukrain some ppl call it Day of Sorrow and hate it cause they think their granfathers lost a war together with their allies - nazi germans and some people hate it because it represents the re-imposition of genocidal soviet rule, but hey, nazis! so that is good reason to beat up their fellow ukrainians, right? It's a good reason to have resentments against someone who called the fall of the Soviet Union 'the biggest tragedy of the 20th century" when your family died during the Holodomor, as did millions of other Ukrainians, especially in the agricultural focused West - Ukraine. It's funny how quick you are to imply that people sympathize with fascists, while for many people in the Ukraine the Soviet rule was equally bad. it was a great hunger in Russia, Ukraine and Kazakhstan - millions and millions died, it wasn't specifically pointed towards ukrainians The majority of victims where Ukrainians. How does it millions of dead Ukrainians and their children help that people in Kazakhstan died too? Also the important part is it wasn't just a hunger. It was a man made catastrophe induced by collectivization, deportation and other policies put in place by the Soviet Government. not true, majority of victims were russians - over 5 millions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1932–1933#Estimation_of_the_loss_of_life
Please stop spouting propaganda. Historians agree that the Ukrainian population was hit the hardest by the famine, with death tolls exceeding other ethnicities by several millions. Denying this is on one level with Holocaust denial and it should be a bannable offense here.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On March 14 2014 03:00 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2014 02:49 PaleMan wrote:On March 14 2014 02:44 Nyxisto wrote:On March 14 2014 02:41 PaleMan wrote:On March 14 2014 02:34 Nyxisto wrote:On March 14 2014 02:27 PaleMan wrote:On March 14 2014 02:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:Wow I never thought I'd see globalresearch.ca used as a source lol. in the west part of Ukrain some ppl call it Day of Sorrow and hate it cause they think their granfathers lost a war together with their allies - nazi germans and some people hate it because it represents the re-imposition of genocidal soviet rule, but hey, nazis! so that is good reason to beat up their fellow ukrainians, right? It's a good reason to have resentments against someone who called the fall of the Soviet Union 'the biggest tragedy of the 20th century" when your family died during the Holodomor, as did millions of other Ukrainians, especially in the agricultural focused West - Ukraine. It's funny how quick you are to imply that people sympathize with fascists, while for many people in the Ukraine the Soviet rule was equally bad. it was a great hunger in Russia, Ukraine and Kazakhstan - millions and millions died, it wasn't specifically pointed towards ukrainians The majority of victims where Ukrainians. How does it millions of dead Ukrainians and their children help that people in Kazakhstan died too? Also the important part is it wasn't just a hunger. It was a man made catastrophe induced by collectivization, deportation and other policies put in place by the Soviet Government. not true, majority of victims were russians - over 5 millions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1932–1933#Estimation_of_the_loss_of_lifePlease stop spouting propaganda. Historians agree that the Ukrainian population was hit the hardest by the famine, with death tolls exceeding other ethnicities by several millions. Denying this is on one level with Holocaust denial and it should be a bannable offense here.
Basically, those losses are summary of famine and migration. But something like 3 millions is right number, 5-6 is way too big considering that highest number for all USSR is ~7-8.
But it's sad anyway, let's not call it as propaganda for no reason. I hadn't seen a single notification of Holodomor like forever in news. (except monument in Kiev)
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Russian Federation1953 Posts
On March 14 2014 02:56 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2014 02:49 PaleMan wrote:On March 14 2014 02:44 Nyxisto wrote:On March 14 2014 02:41 PaleMan wrote:On March 14 2014 02:34 Nyxisto wrote:On March 14 2014 02:27 PaleMan wrote:On March 14 2014 02:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:Wow I never thought I'd see globalresearch.ca used as a source lol. in the west part of Ukrain some ppl call it Day of Sorrow and hate it cause they think their granfathers lost a war together with their allies - nazi germans and some people hate it because it represents the re-imposition of genocidal soviet rule, but hey, nazis! so that is good reason to beat up their fellow ukrainians, right? It's a good reason to have resentments against someone who called the fall of the Soviet Union 'the biggest tragedy of the 20th century" when your family died during the Holodomor, as did millions of other Ukrainians, especially in the agricultural focused West - Ukraine. It's funny how quick you are to imply that people sympathize with fascists, while for many people in the Ukraine the Soviet rule was equally bad. it was a great hunger in Russia, Ukraine and Kazakhstan - millions and millions died, it wasn't specifically pointed towards ukrainians The majority of victims where Ukrainians. How does it millions of dead Ukrainians and their children help that people in Kazakhstan died too? Also the important part is it wasn't just a hunger. It was a man made catastrophe induced by collectivization, deportation and other policies put in place by the Soviet Government. not true, majority of victims were russians - over 5 millions no reputable historian has ever concluded anything but that ukrainians were the majority of deaths during the famine of 1932-1933 and it is beyond dispute that the famine in the ukraine was largely man-made at the order of joseph stalin. now russian propagandists may and do offer a different and ridiculous story, but 5 million russian deaths? try 1 million, another million in kazakhstan, another million spread around the non-ukraine non-russia parts of the USSR, and 3 - 5 million ukrainians.
oh, so it was man-made at the order of joseph stalin
i guess he all of sudden became russian
could you explain what was the point of this?
and the biggest propagandists in the world are british and american "historians"
they are actually not historians at all cause they spread lies
"He who controls the past commands the future" you know
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"He who controls the past commands the future" you know
Denying the past doesn't help in this case, it's not how it works.
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The stuff overly zealous Russians come up with is just downright hilarious; I don't think even Alex Jones could pull this off this farce:
http://rossiyanavsegda.ru/read/1689/
Them 'murican and British "instructors" must be training Ukrainian neo-nazi-saboteurs at scout camps to resist Mother Russia! 
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oh, so it was man-made at the order of joseph stalin
law of the spikelets, using the red army to "requisition" all the grain including seed grain in ukrainian villages to feed russians in cities in russia leaving the villagers with absolutely nothing to eat
it's all very well-documented that the ukraine had as much food stolen from it as stalin could manage to feed russians in the cities where the mass industrialization was taking place
also very well-documented that the USSR sold food on the international market to get capital (gasp!) for the factories to be built and other projects like the moscow subway. while millions were starving to death and many were resorting to suicide to avoid cannibalism, or actually resorting to cannibalism.
also very well-documented that UNLIKE the famine during the civil war, the soviet government refused food aid from western nations and aid organizations. because stalin was using starvation as a way to break the spirit of communities he thought were a threat to russian-dominated soviet rule. the same reason he moved people like the crimean tatars all the way to bumfuck siberia and other places.
i guess he all of sudden became russian
the russian chauvinism of the ussr is well-documented, stalin used it to keep russian communists from moving against him because he was georgian.
could you explain what was the point of this?
that you're a contemptible human being
and the biggest propagandists in the world are british and american "historians"
no one cares about the russian opinion of british and american historians
they are actually not historians at all cause they spread lies
no one cares about the russian opinion of british and american historians
the reason being that a russian like you who unfortunately most frequently represent russia to the outside world destroys his credibility almost instantly as you have with well any of your posts in this thread, and now with your fantasies about the 32-33 famine.
you've been horribly educated to and lied to your whole life and pumped up with pride in a fascist ideal of "Russia" that the communists and now Putin want you to believe in and everyone can see what it has done to you.
User was warned for this post
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the reason being that a russian like you who unfortunately most frequently represent russia to the outside world destroys his credibility almost instantly as you have with well any of your posts in this thread, and now with your fantasies about the 32-33 famine.
To be fair, we still have the oo_Wonderful_oo guy. While he seems to be a bit flowerpowery with all the peace n love stuff, he seems alot more reasonable.
I prefer to use him as a "representation"(""!) of russia.
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Russian historians tend to say such things and it's not surprising that Russian posters have different view on what happened before ww2. I mean, how are they supposed to know that their historians aren't right ? Would you rather trust some guy from the West on internet forum or history professor from your own country?
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Russian Federation1953 Posts
thats true
i've been horribly educated and lied in 90s by so called democrats
they told me that USA is shining beacon of truth and all good things come from there
but when i grew up i saw that they were liars
User was temp banned for this post.
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Baltimore, USA22258 Posts
Have a discussion, debate, etc. But leave personal attacks and nation bashing at the door please. This is for everyone.
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that's nice
putin doing some more exercises near ukraine border
if he invades eastern ukraine no matter how limited then ukraine needs to fight back. too bad it will be a big war but if putin gets to lop off another chunk of ukraine unopposed sooner or later the baltic republics will be next and they're members of NATO which means even bigger war
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On March 14 2014 03:33 DeepElemBlues wrote:
that's nice
putin doing some more exercises near ukraine border
if he invades eastern ukraine no matter how limited then ukraine needs to fight back. too bad it will be a big war but if putin gets to lop off another chunk of ukraine unopposed sooner or later the baltic republics will be next and they're members of NATO which means even bigger war
I don't think putin is stupid enough to attack a nato-country. For now, the EU, US etc can just "lean back", since they're not forced into something, really.
If a NATO-member gets attacked, this would not be the case. And i think, putin knows that as well.
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I'm just worried that they all have very large Russian populations and Putin is surrounded by yes-men right now and might start believing or actually does believe all or most of the scary things he's saying. The economic and finance ministries who naturally are more wary of adventurism have been shut out of the process in the Kremlin because they aren't too keen on what Putin's doing. If he grabs another chunk of Ukraine without anyone fighting back I don't know what Putin might think he can get away with and we shouldn't want to find out.
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On March 14 2014 03:33 DeepElemBlues wrote:
that's nice
putin doing some more exercises near ukraine border
if he invades eastern ukraine no matter how limited then ukraine needs to fight back. too bad it will be a big war but if putin gets to lop off another chunk of ukraine unopposed sooner or later the baltic republics will be next and they're members of NATO which means even bigger war
If its any consolation, Russia has granted Ukraine's request to use Russia airspace next to the border and observe troops training and exercises.
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Putin gave a press conference not long ago where he said, when you do something like in Crimea you think it through more than once. He is not an idiot. And imo he gets away with what he does in Crimea. What can happen anyway? Sanctions? -> They also will hurt Europe (Russia might try to sell its gas to China in the future. I heard China is interested.) NATO troops in west Ukraine? -> Send Russian troops into east Ukraine. -> West gets agricultural area, Russia gets Industrial one gg. And what about the money to build up Ukraine? This thing is a huge clusterfuck and all parties have to talk with each other about the future.
There never will be an attack of Russia on NATO members because they know this would start the third world war.
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On March 14 2014 03:24 Sent. wrote:
Russian historians tend to say such things and it's not surprising that Russian posters have different view on what happened before ww2. I mean, how are they supposed to know that their historians aren't right ? Would you rather trust some guy from the West on internet forum or history professor from your own country?
Especially if you grew up in the 90s and "western" reform you associate with corruption and chaos, and good guy Putin brings stability and many humorous outfit changes and corruption is much better hidden.
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On March 14 2014 01:57 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2014 01:56 Gorsameth wrote:On March 14 2014 01:53 PaleMan wrote:On March 14 2014 01:49 m4ini wrote:On March 14 2014 01:46 PaleMan wrote:On March 14 2014 01:45 Acertos wrote:On March 14 2014 01:42 PaleMan wrote:On March 14 2014 01:31 m4ini wrote:On March 14 2014 01:29 PaleMan wrote:On March 14 2014 01:27 SilentchiLL wrote:
[quote]
The NSA could have spied on us without their troops here, so what else? its called dictatorship when you live under Big Brothers hand wanna tell me smthing about democracy again? Yeah, democracy in germany doesn't work, we didn't get to vote if a foreign country may spy on us, totally a dictatorship. i've also heard most of german gold is stored in USA and some time ago Germany asked "what about my gold, USA" could you remind me what happened? let me sum it up: - you have foreign armed troops in you territory - all your country negotiations are known to 3rd party (which has 50k armed troops on you territory) - your country gold is stored in anoter country (which has 50k armed troops on you territory and knows everything you think) - your country does everything another country asks this is democracy you say - i say you are hostage Sorry but you are not making any sense anymore, Idk where you got your quote about germany's gold. http://www.globalresearch.ca/u-s-dollar-collapse-where-is-germanys-gold/5321894 This actually contradicts your "puppet-statement". If you think hard, you may find out why. I'm not full of hopes though - let's just get back to ukraine. puppet tries to break free, and i wish it best luck back on topic Ukraine will suffer for years now, cause west ukrainians hate east ukrainians and vice versa there will be blood but not in Crimea, cause Russia will protect it Made all the more Ironic by there not being any violence between east and west, or even hatred, before the Russian invasion. Ooph dude, you never was on Ukranian football stadiums, i guess. To say that there wasn't any violence between East and West :D
There is more violence between Dnepro and Kharkiv supporters than any East vs. West violence.
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On March 14 2014 02:56 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2014 02:49 PaleMan wrote:On March 14 2014 02:44 Nyxisto wrote:On March 14 2014 02:41 PaleMan wrote:On March 14 2014 02:34 Nyxisto wrote:On March 14 2014 02:27 PaleMan wrote:On March 14 2014 02:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:Wow I never thought I'd see globalresearch.ca used as a source lol. in the west part of Ukrain some ppl call it Day of Sorrow and hate it cause they think their granfathers lost a war together with their allies - nazi germans and some people hate it because it represents the re-imposition of genocidal soviet rule, but hey, nazis! so that is good reason to beat up their fellow ukrainians, right? It's a good reason to have resentments against someone who called the fall of the Soviet Union 'the biggest tragedy of the 20th century" when your family died during the Holodomor, as did millions of other Ukrainians, especially in the agricultural focused West - Ukraine. It's funny how quick you are to imply that people sympathize with fascists, while for many people in the Ukraine the Soviet rule was equally bad. it was a great hunger in Russia, Ukraine and Kazakhstan - millions and millions died, it wasn't specifically pointed towards ukrainians The majority of victims where Ukrainians. How does it millions of dead Ukrainians and their children help that people in Kazakhstan died too? Also the important part is it wasn't just a hunger. It was a man made catastrophe induced by collectivization, deportation and other policies put in place by the Soviet Government. not true, majority of victims were russians - over 5 millions no reputable historian has ever concluded anything but that ukrainians were the majority of deaths during the famine of 1932-1933 and it is beyond dispute that the famine in the ukraine was largely man-made at the order of joseph stalin. now russian propagandists may and do offer a different and ridiculous story, but 5 million russian deaths? try 1 million, another million in kazakhstan, another million spread around the non-ukraine non-russia parts of the USSR, and 3 - 5 million ukrainians.
It's beyond dispute that the 1932-1933 famine was largely in consequence of Stalin's policies, but it is not indisputable that Stalin was intentionally creating a famine (i.e. committing genocide).
The alternative is that he was simply trying to rush industrial advancement in the Union at breakneck speed, with reckless disregard for human life, but not actual intent to kill his citizens. A good window into Stalin's mindset is his quote "We are fifty or a hundred years behind the advanced countries. We must make good this distance in ten years. Either we do it, or they will crush us."
The United Nations does not officially consider it a genocide, although the U.S., Canada and Ukraine itself do, among several others.
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EPT
