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On March 07 2014 18:17 Ghanburighan wrote:Here's a handy crowdsourced collection of links to articles which claim to have evidence that the occupying troops are Russian. P.S. I was wondering what happened to the Mistral sale by France. Apparently nothing, which might explain why France has been very careful about reacting to this crisis.
Implying France decides something for itself.
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On March 07 2014 17:20 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 17:15 Liman wrote:On March 07 2014 15:34 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Good video providing some historical background in regards to Crimea and Ukraine, discussing events from the Crimean War to USSR to the Orange Revolution to the current Russia - EU/US tug-of-war. See spoiler. + Show Spoiler +Also I'm going to assume people suggesting or implying war with Russia are joking. lol That video is not that good when guy admits he made many mistakes in making it lol Hes even too lazy to remake it and do it right. And its colored by propaganda. I'm guessing you've never heard of John Green. Please wow us with your expertise of eastern european politics since he's clearly unable to do so.
Crimea war kinda catholic - orthodox thing,Britain-anglican (protestant),Turkey-muslim.
1917-1921,no mention of civil war in whole Russia between whites (tsarists) and reds (bolshevist).Or that Ukraine was given to Germany as a part of a peace deal in 1917.
Dont know difference between east and west of Ukraine.
Fail to mention 2012 elections won by party of regions by suspicious circumstances.
Last part of video is like watching CNN (or RT on the other side),no objectivity what so ever.For example:police and military was shooting at peaceful protesters.There was no military that we know of.At the time shooting have started protesters were no longer peaceful and its arguable that they had guns themselves.
John Michael Green (born August 24, 1977) is an American author of young adult fiction and a YouTube video blogger
Education B.A., English and Religious studies
Clearly an history and politics expert.
lol dude !
If you want to know some history dont watch youtube videos made by god knows who,read a book.
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On March 07 2014 18:17 Ghanburighan wrote:Here's a handy crowdsourced collection of links to articles which claim to have evidence that the occupying troops are Russian. P.S. I was wondering what happened to the Mistral sale by France. Apparently nothing, which might explain why France has been very careful about reacting to this crisis.
Was it even a matter of discussion that the soldiers in Crimea are Russian? What proof is needed? From the outset, Russia moved soldiers into Crimea. Anyways, thanks for the informative link.
Also, France has historically had good relations with Russia, post-Napoleon era. Even DeGaulle was uncharacteristically independent of US influence for European leaders (to a degree that even the CIA was against him) and solidified France's resolve as a (mostly) 'fair' country on such issues. Thus it doesn't surprise me that France has no issue continuing their arms deal with Russia.
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So Putin says he couldn't accept the results of future elections in the Ukraine, if they are held under the threat of force by armed mobs, and then organizes an early referendum in the Crimea which is held under the "protection" of "local self-defense forces". He isn't even trying to be consistent lol.
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On March 07 2014 18:30 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 18:17 Ghanburighan wrote:Here's a handy crowdsourced collection of links to articles which claim to have evidence that the occupying troops are Russian. P.S. I was wondering what happened to the Mistral sale by France. Apparently nothing, which might explain why France has been very careful about reacting to this crisis. Was it even a matter of discussion that the soldiers in Crimea are Russian?
it was by posters in this thread, and obviously all members of the Russian leadership in their public statements.
On March 07 2014 18:37 Maenander wrote:
So Putin says he couldn't accept the results of future elections in the Ukraine, if they are held under the threat of force by armed mobs, and then organizes an early referendum in the Crimea which is held under the "protection" of "local self-defense forces". He isn't even trying to be consistent lol.
I think he thinks he is being consistent because (a) this is like Kosovo declaring formal independence despite Russian objection and (b) he thinks the NATO/EU/America sponsored a coup in Kiev (I dont think he honestly thinks its a fascist coup) so he is just returning the favor while demonstrating his own mastery of the game he thinks is being played by making it much more efficient.
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Take a chunk of salt the size of a fist and lick it vigorously while reading this:
But note that it was just retweeted by the FM of Poland. And despite working for the Cato institute, the guy actually does have the background to know what he's talking about.
P.S. I finally agree with Putin on something:
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I have a mate who claims there is no evidence of any Russian troops being outside of their military bases (where they are allowed to be anyway) and that media just keeps mistaking pro Russian Crimean troops for Russians. Is there any actual evidence for actual Russian troops besieging Ukrainian bases?
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Damn salt 
Seriously: Yeah, the Russian staged attacks and maybe they will do it again in this "conflict".
But I hope I don't have to point out, that the USA and other "western" countries did/do the same!? But if I have to, check out one of the most famous ones:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio
Currently I really don't know if the people involved are talking to each other ... and I don't know which sides "fault" is that...
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On March 07 2014 18:15 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 17:46 Cheerio wrote:On March 07 2014 17:38 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On March 07 2014 17:31 Cheerio wrote:
Bulgarian journalists attacked in Crimea. The main goal was to take away almost all of their equipment, including smartphones. Who is doing the attacking? Obviously there are security issues in Crimea for things like this to happen. Are you asking to be spoonfed information? I'm sorry, but I don't know a specific Slavic language spoken by 40-50 million people to be able to read the video description and comments (assuming the information answering my was there).
No, the answer wasn't there. That's the point. I'm giving you raw facts and you are dismissing it unless it's chewed up for you.
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On March 07 2014 19:23 vyyye wrote:
I have a mate who claims there is no evidence of any Russian troops being outside of their military bases (where they are allowed to be anyway) and that media just keeps mistaking pro Russian Crimean troops for Russians. Is there any actual evidence for actual Russian troops besieging Ukrainian bases?
Unless you go there youself and ask them I guess you just have to trust your national news stations.
The thing is that if the media really are mistaken about the soldiers in Crimea, on purpose or not, then it would mean many hundreds of journalists are not doing their jobs or would be lying.
Aside from all the big news stations like CNN, BBC, Al Jazeera etc. there is also countless of national stations there.
I highly doubt ever one of these are doing such a poor job.
The Danish media at least are usually very objective, we have been getting the Russian side as well.
Every thing the Russian posters in this thread have said, have been reported in the danish news as well, though not as hard facts as the Russians
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On March 07 2014 18:37 Maenander wrote:
So Putin says he couldn't accept the results of future elections in the Ukraine, if they are held under the threat of force by armed mobs, and then organizes an early referendum in the Crimea which is held under the "protection" of "local self-defense forces". He isn't even trying to be consistent lol.
Clearly it's about who holds guns. If Russians, then the referendum is ok, if not Russians, then it's not ok. It's quite consistent if you look at it that way.
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On March 07 2014 19:23 vyyye wrote:
I have a mate who claims there is no evidence of any Russian troops being outside of their military bases (where they are allowed to be anyway) and that media just keeps mistaking pro Russian Crimean troops for Russians. Is there any actual evidence for actual Russian troops besieging Ukrainian bases?
There were three youtube videos posted in this thread, you can easily find them.
1) The first one is with a Asian looking guy, he is clearly Russian military, speaks perfect Russian, confirms he is Russian.
I have no idea where the video was shot though, but definitely outside the military base.
2) There is an interview with a commander whose troops are blockading Ukraine military, the guy was very well spoken, spoke with a Ukrainian accent, said he had about 170 people in his brigade all from Crimea and not Russian military. However they did have Russian trucks, when asked about it, he replied, they had help equipment wise.
3) There is a video of unarmed column of Ukraine Air Force personal marching to the Airport surrounded by people with weapons. The armed people yell with Ukrainian accents and seem to be wearing mismatched uniforms, so it looks they are Crimean self defense people, but that's not 100%.
To answer your questions, their seems to be Russian troops in Crimea outside of their bases ( some people say that's legal according to the treaty, some people say its not, I don't know I haven't read it ), but so far it seems people that are blockading Ukraine's military bases are the local militia, however it seems like they are supplied with Russian equipment.
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Some local news website reports that Yanukovych is hospitalized and he may be experiencing infarction. However, I have not found more credible source, so it could be just a rumour. Btw, has anyone watched that video where he apologises to Ukrainian people, but also breaks a pen into pieces?
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On March 07 2014 19:23 vyyye wrote:
I have a mate who claims there is no evidence of any Russian troops being outside of their military bases (where they are allowed to be anyway) and that media just keeps mistaking pro Russian Crimean troops for Russians. Is there any actual evidence for actual Russian troops besieging Ukrainian bases?
as a rule of thumb, whenever you see someone in Crimea dressed like this
![[image loading]](http://bbb-news.com/blog/wp-content/plugins/RSSPoster_PRO/cache/a450b_article-2571309-1BF82BF800000578-950_634x488.jpg)
it's a Russian
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On March 07 2014 15:40 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 15:32 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Is it just me or has Germany shown itself to be really a pushover. I mean Poland and Lithuania have protested and done more in support of Ukraine than the supposed strongman of Europe. Well on one hand, Germany doesnt have to fear Russian invasion whereas if you are Lithuania -- despite being in EU and NATO -- you can imagine getting Crimeaed. "Local self defense groups" popping up while Russia's race based foreign policy kicks up in high gear. Sure, its hard to imagine Putin tangling with NATO/EU in such an outright matter, since the Ukraine situation was rather unique, but then again who would have expected Putin trying to annex Crimea away from Ukraine before February? On the other hand, its a good cop/bad cop type situation. The English/Americans and the Eastern European-ex-victims of the Soviets can be relied upon to do the bad cop stuff and Merkel can be the 'reasonable' adult. And on the third hand, unless they turn their nuclear reactors back on or find a bunch of gas under Saxony what are they going to do, grind down their economy for some poor country? Just as they've just won the mastery over Europe?
It is pretty sad how Europe is reliant on Russia's resources. The question of European integrity is at hand, and Germany playing 'spineless' politics is only self serving. Sure, I guess Germany have nothing to lose if Russia annexes eastern Ukraine as compared to huge trade and business deals that they have with Russia. Though, there is a bigger question at hand, is there "a" Europe anymore? Russia undermining all the international treaties and getting away with it, not to say getting some good piece of strategic land.
Though, you must applaud Russian strategic geniuses, that kinda found perfect opportunity for Crimea . When you think about no one can do shit now, cause of huge ethnic Russian population in the region, not to say autonomous government. I feel sad for eastern Ukrainians who do not want to be incorporated.
As for getting Crimeaed, it would be different for Lithuania, at least for finding reasoning for it, cause there are no large ethnic groups to "protect" here in Lithuania.
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On March 07 2014 20:19 NightOfTheDead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 15:40 Sub40APM wrote:On March 07 2014 15:32 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Is it just me or has Germany shown itself to be really a pushover. I mean Poland and Lithuania have protested and done more in support of Ukraine than the supposed strongman of Europe. Well on one hand, Germany doesnt have to fear Russian invasion whereas if you are Lithuania -- despite being in EU and NATO -- you can imagine getting Crimeaed. "Local self defense groups" popping up while Russia's race based foreign policy kicks up in high gear. Sure, its hard to imagine Putin tangling with NATO/EU in such an outright matter, since the Ukraine situation was rather unique, but then again who would have expected Putin trying to annex Crimea away from Ukraine before February? On the other hand, its a good cop/bad cop type situation. The English/Americans and the Eastern European-ex-victims of the Soviets can be relied upon to do the bad cop stuff and Merkel can be the 'reasonable' adult. And on the third hand, unless they turn their nuclear reactors back on or find a bunch of gas under Saxony what are they going to do, grind down their economy for some poor country? Just as they've just won the mastery over Europe? It is pretty sad how Europe is reliant on Russia's resources. The question of European integrity is at hand, and Germany playing 'spineless' politics is only self serving. Sure, I guess Germany have nothing to lose if Russia annexes eastern Ukraine as compared to huge trade and business deals that they have with Russia. Though, there is a bigger question at hand, is there "a" Europe anymore? Russia undermining all the international treaties and getting away with it, not to say getting some good piece of strategic land.
So you are somehow confusing Eruope and the EU. The EU itself is an abomination, there is no (good) reason to include western, southern and eastern european countries in one group.
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It is pretty sad how Europe is reliant on Russia's resources. The question of European integrity is at hand, and Germany playing 'spineless' politics is only self serving. Sure, I guess Germany have nothing to lose if Russia annexes eastern Ukraine as compared to huge trade and business deals that they have with Russia. Though, there is a bigger question at hand, is there "a" Europe anymore? Russia undermining all the international treaties and getting away with it, not to say getting some good piece of strategic land.
It's actually far less "spineless" as the "politic-experts" here make it out to be.
We did deal with russians, and "indoctrinated" germans, we deal with them up to today (there's still germans who want the communism and the wall back). Germany was basically the "cold war" manifested. It was west against east, it still is, it's still in process. But it's going forward. Something that did not happen anywhere else.
Germany is on board with EU-sanctions etc, the only difference is that we made it clear that we don't WANT to sanction if we can prevent it. Which is a reasonable stance, considering that 75% of the exports of russia to germany are energy. At least we didn't explicitly exclude our trademarkets from sanctions from day one (london). Not to mention, russia seems to react awesomely well to threats, one could think that they don't give a shit. Because they don't. Worsen your own position for no gain, no country would do that. And none did it.
As a small sidenote: germany is one of the last countries in the west that actually can talk to russia.
I don't like russia, i don't like russians and their mentality (for the most part) - but i also don't like kids going apeshit, throwing bs like "spineless", "cowards" out just because our government does what all the others should've done as well. Try to find a solution, that's missing from ALL the governments except germans.
Edit:
What many people here seem to forget in their calls for oh so strong interventions, military presence etc etc - there will be a time after the crimea crisis. Doesn't matter how, for this argument, but it will end at some point. Now, by judging opinions here, many people would be totally fine with another cold war - i would not. And nor would germanys government. Not to mention how insincere it is, to call for a new cold war (that's what people are doing here) because russia stepped over the line, but are totally fine when it comes to western states.
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EPT
