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Ukraine Crisis - Page 235

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There is a new policy in effect in this thread. Anyone not complying will be moderated.

New policy, please read before posting:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=21393711
radiatoren
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Denmark1907 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-07 14:32:06
March 07 2014 14:29 GMT
#4681
On March 07 2014 23:18 Saryph wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2014 23:13 radiatoren wrote:
On March 07 2014 22:24 Saryph wrote:
12:27: Ukrainian border guards say Russia now has 30,000 soldiers inside Crimea. Serhiy Stakhov, an aide to the head of the border guards service, tells Reuters the figure is an estimate and includes both troops who arrived since last week and Russia's Black Sea Fleet, permanently based in the Crimean port of Sevastopol.


Source

That would put them above the number they are legally allowed to have due to treaty. Not that they're supposed to be running around the country-side laying siege to Ukrainian military bases or holding border crossing under their control in the first place...

What are you talking? Yesterday the parliament in Crimea decided to annex the region to Russia. The referendum is purely symbolic and doesn't change the decission. Since Crimea is now a part of Russia, they can plant as many soldiers there as they want.

They have already affirmed that ukrainian soldiers are in violation of russian territorial integrity and therefore has to stand down and leave the occupation of Russia or there will be sanctions levied against them!


I find sarcasm amusing, but there are so many people with idiotic views in this thread that sometimes I get confused whether I am reading sarcasm or stupidity. (I know you're being sarcastic.)

some sourcification

I am not actually taking any specific side on the issue. Just relaying information, with a slight twist to make a point. As much as I would have liked to call it sarcasm, it is a fact that the crimean parliament only consider the referendum a "confirmation". And it is a fact that "Any troops of a third country will be treated as illegal band formations, with all the consequences that entails." has been uttered by Temirgaliev (Party of Regions and deputy prime minister in Crimea), after affirming that Crimea will become part of Russia.
Repeat before me
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
March 07 2014 14:42 GMT
#4682
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Grettin
Profile Joined April 2010
42381 Posts
March 07 2014 14:45 GMT
#4683
Don't know whether these have been posted yet, but VICE is also reporting about the situation pretty regularly. Timespan might be bit longer though.





"If I had force-fields in Brood War, I'd never lose." -Bisu
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
March 07 2014 14:49 GMT
#4684


How on earth can they think that sending observers from the only country that stands to gain from the referendum will grant them legitimacy O_o
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
March 07 2014 14:51 GMT
#4685
On March 07 2014 23:49 Ghanburighan wrote:
https://twitter.com/BBCWillVernon/status/441947835047899136

How on earth can they think that sending observers from the only country that stands to gain from the referendum will grant them legitimacy O_o



"Observers = legitimate, we saw this in russian TV".

On track to MA1950A.
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-07 15:53:43
March 07 2014 15:05 GMT
#4686
Anyone have a working FA subscription?




Russian President Vladimir Putin’s startling military takeover of Crimea in response to the February revolution in Kiev left Western leaders scrambling. Internationally, Putin seems the master grand strategist, just as he had after his successful effort in September 2013 to head off potential aerial strikes on Syria. At home, he appears equally in command, having ruled Russia for the last 15 years, with another ten years a distinct possibility. It would be a mistake, however, to overestimate Putin or Russia -- or to underestimate how badly his gambit in Ukraine could turn out for him. Finding a way out of this crisis requires an understanding both of why Putin instigated it and of how it will affect his rule.


+ Show Spoiler +

Putin’s thinking was on display in a March 4 press conference, his first public statement since the Crimea crisis began. He referred to the events in Kiev not as a revolution but as “an anticonstitutional coup and armed seizure of power,” calling the current authorities in Kiev “illegitimate.” He blamed the West for interference in Ukraine, drawing a comparison to “America employees of some laboratory … conducting experiments like on rats, not understanding the consequences of what they are doing.” And he denied that Russia had deployed forces in Crimea, but reserved the right to do so (and not only in Crimea) to protect the local population. Several Western journalists immediately asked whether Putin had lost his mind.

Putin’s statements, however, were neither new nor crazy, although obviously one-sided and, to Western ears, occasionally bizarre. (The claim about “local self-defense forces” not being Russian soldiers was, to put it mildly, inconsistent with other reports.) Rather, they were the product of a worldview fairly widely shared among the Russian political elite, who believe that the West is out to get them. At any rate, the main audience for Putin’s statements was not Westerners but Russians, whom Putin would like to convince of the West’s nefarious ends. Putin sees the Ukrainian revolution not simply as a geostrategic defeat for Russia but one that was engineered in the West. He believes that the West instigated the revolution to bring the country into the Western orbit, despite its natural propensity to ally with Russia. Furthermore, he notes, the West was prepared to cynically make common cause with violent extreme nationalists to achieve its goals.

The behavior of Western diplomats during the revolution reinforced this viewpoint. For example, although the highlight for Western listeners from a leaked phone conversation between Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt earlier this year was Nuland’s blunt declaration “Fuck the EU,” the important part of the conversation for Russian observers was the seemingly casual way in which Nuland indicated her preferences about the best political course of action for “Yats” and “Klitsch,” the Ukrainian opposition leaders Arseniy Yatsenyuk and Vitali Klitschko. Russia thus sees U.S. claims that it did not interfere in the Ukrainian revolution and that it wants Ukrainians “to determine their own future” as hypocritical and even mendacious.

Moreover, for Putin, the recent Ukrainian revolution was just the latest episode in a long-term and cynical game the West has played to try to bring former Soviet republics such as Belarus, Georgia, Moldova, and Ukraine into the Western orbit, including through externally sponsored “regime change.” He sees both the 2003 Georgian Rose Revolution and the 2004 Ukrainian Orange Revolution through this lens. And that view was further reinforced in 2008 when NATO committed to eventual membership for Georgia and Ukraine.

Worse, Putin and his circle believe that the West has every intention of infecting Russia with what pro-Putin commentators call the “Orange plague,” referring to the 2004 Ukrainian Revolution. Putin believes his domestic opponents are part of the same conspiracy to weaken Russia; in November 2007, he told supporters that “those who oppose us…need a weak, sick state,” accusing them of being “jackals” scavenging for foreign support. Putin’s fears were seemingly confirmed when large public protests broke out in Moscow after falsified parliamentary elections in December 2011. When Hillary Clinton, the U.S. Secretary of State at the time, criticized the conduct of the elections, Putin stated that opposition leaders “heard the signal and with the support of the U.S. State Department began active work." In June 2013, Putin again complained about Western double standards and interference, maintaining that the U.S. diplomatic mission “works together [with] and directly supports the Russian opposition.” Accordingly, over the last several years, he has worked to limit foreign influence in Russia, including by prohibiting the U.S. Agency for International Development from operating inside the country.

STRONG, SELF-CONFIDENT, AND STABLE

Although it would be easy to dismiss Putin’s suspicions about nefarious Western intentions as propaganda for domestic consumption only, this vision has been articulated too often (including in unscripted settings) by too many Russian elites for too many years to ignore. What the United States sees as democracy promotion Putin sees as encouragement for regime change. On one level, he is right; if Russia had a more open political system, his ability to hold onto power might be threatened.

In the face of this perceived threat, Putin’s central goal is not to re-create the Soviet Union, although his proposed Eurasian Economic Union is a step in that direction, but to hang on to power at home. Accentuating the threat from the West -- and the costs of revolution in Ukraine -- are signals to all Russians about the importance of internal stability (and thus the continuation of the current political system, with Putin at its top). He went out of his way in his March 4 press conference to stress the much higher standard of living in Russia compared to Ukraine, and maintained that if the Ukrainian state had been “strong, self-confident, and stable” then chaos would have been averted.

The Ukrainian revolution is particularly troublesome for Putin because it comes at a time of growing concern about the fragility of the Russian political and economic system, and the Ukrainians’ complaints about their regime -- dissatisfaction with a corrupt kleptocracy based on close links between ruling elites and economic oligarchs provided fuel to the revolution -- are echoed in Russia. Some of Putin’s closest acquaintances from his St. Petersburg past have grown fabulously wealthy, and many of these same people profited handsomely from contracts for the Sochi Olympics. The Russian opposition leader Alexi Navalny’s meme about how the ruling United Russia party is the “party of swindlers and thieves” was one of the most effective opposition slogans during the 2011–2012 protests.

Russia’s domestic outlook is also considerably less rosy than it was in 2008, when Russian troops went into Georgia, and elite confidence in the Kremlin is consequently weaker. In 2008, Putin’s popularity ratings were at an all-time high (over 80 percent), Russia had experienced eight years of sustained economic growth of roughly seven percent a year, and world oil prices had temporarily shot to over $140 per barrel (although the average for the whole year was slightly less than $100 per barrel). Today, Putin is still popular (over 60 percent approval ratings), but the economic outlook is very different. Growth in 2013 was a mere 1.4 percent, and this at a time when the price of oil has remained over $100 per barrel for three years straight. Oil and gas revenues account for over half of Russian budget receipts, but it now takes world oil prices of around $110–115 per barrel to balance the budget, compared to $20 per barrel in 2005. Further, the Russian state-controlled energy giants of Rosneft (oil) and Gazprom (gas) have been slow to keep up with revolutionary changes in world energy production and transportation, such as hydrofracking and liquid natural gas.



Russian elites are increasingly concerned that Russia’s economic stagnation is not temporary but systemic, a product of accumulated problems and inefficiencies. Last year, the Ministry of Economic Development downgraded its long-range economic growth projections from annual increases of 4.3 to 2.5 percent, well below the rates to which Russia had grown accustomed in the 2000s. Productivity and investment remain low, and human capital spending (spending on education and health care) suffers at the expense of higher salaries for state officials and an ambitious defense buildup, which has been marked by corruption, cost overruns, and unrealistic targets. Russia is economically uncompetitive with developed economies, which have innovative and productive work forces, and poorer countries, which have lower wages and competitive manufacturing industries, and thus more dependent than ever on oil and gas exports.

The consensus view among most Russian economists, and a view endorsed both by Putin and Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev, is that Russia needs institutional reforms to encourage investment, reduce capital flight, and modernize and diversify the economy. But “institutional reform” is simply code for a stronger rule of law, less corruption, and more robust protection of private property rights. All of these changes are unlikely absent broader political reforms that increase accountability, transparency, and competition -- in other words, a total reversal of Russian politics since Putin came to power.

Finally, the image of Putin as Russia’s unrivaled strongman is at best an oversimplification. The current Russian regime is not a monolith but a fractious group of competing oligarchs, clans, and temporary alliances. The security elites (the so-called siloviki) who surround Putin may agree that the West is a threat and that Russia needs to restrict domestic opposition in the name of stability, but they are also often at odds with each other, especially when there are bribes to be extorted. Just last week, a turf dispute between the Federal Security Service and the Ministry of Internal Affairs led to recriminations, dismissals, and arrests. Meanwhile, the prosecutor’s office has been locked in bitter conflict with the Investigative Committee for several years. Putin’s Russia is more a disordered police state than a well-ordered one.

OFF RAMP

The Economist presciently observed in early February that “the danger for the world is that a weaker Mr. Putin may be a more aggressive one, in Ukraine and elsewhere.” Indeed, even if we accept that Putin blames the West for the Ukraine crisis, his Crimean démarche seems both emotional and dangerously provocative. Certainly, understanding Putin’s worldview and the real problems and challenges facing his regime does not excuse Russian actions in Crimea, but it does provide a better standpoint from which to end the crisis than a framework emphasizing alleged innate Russian characteristics or overemphasizing the Russian challenge.

A good start would be to avoid as much as possible a zero-sum framing of the Ukraine crisis, in which a victory for Russia is a loss for the West, and vice versa. Economic sanctions targeted on the Russian political and economic elite, along the lines being proposed by the United States, are much more likely to have a positive effect than confrontational steps, especially military ones, that will simply confirm for Putin that he is right about the West’s real and nefarious intentions. Recent proposals to provide Putin an “off ramp” by brokering a diplomatic agreement for Russia to pull back its troops while international monitors come in to prevent human rights violations are smart. The West should also push Kiev “to clean up its act” and legitimize itself, not only through new elections but also with efforts to reach out to politicians from Ukraine’s south and east that were previously allied with Yanukovych. That would undercut Putin’s stated concern about the illegitimacy of the new government and about the need for a “humanitarian mission” to “defend Ukrainian citizens.” A commitment by Ukraine’s current leaders to honor the Russian Black Sea Fleet basing agreement and not push for NATO membership would also help.

There may still be some space to defuse the Crimean crisis. Unfortunately, the March 6 fast-tracking of a Crimean referendum on unification with Russia, if Putin is behind it, suggests that he decided to speed right past the “off ramp” and head straight for formal annexation. In that case, the prospects for positive-sum outcomes will have shrunk considerably. If Russia does formally annex Crimea, the United States and Europe should go ahead with sanctions, in order to hit Russian elites in their pocketbooks. In the medium term, the United States should help Central and Eastern European governments to diversify their energy supplies, away from their dependence on Russian gas.

Finally, annexation and its inevitable consequences of sanctions and isolation for Russia would probably also mean a further strengthening of the fortress mentality that is already dominant among Putin’s circle. He might choose to tighten the screws domestically even more. Such steps would not, however, create either the economic prosperity or the political stability that Putin desires and which ordinary Russians deserve.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Caller
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Poland8075 Posts
March 07 2014 15:13 GMT
#4687
Holy crap that's the autobus station in Simferopol
Watch me fail at Paradox: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397564
Infini
Profile Joined September 2010
Poland12 Posts
March 07 2014 15:14 GMT
#4688
I've read through every single page of this thread, and I gotta say, the amount of bias you people show against Russia is a bit sad for me.

Most people here are like "OF COURSE ! Russia is brainwashing their population", "OF COURSE ! Russia is the only evil element in this whole situation", "OF COURSE ! every Russian posting in here is a brainwashed bloodthirsty maniac"... I mean, come on guys.

I'm a Pole, one side of my family was practically wiped out by the Russians (during WW2), and I can't bring myself to feel this scary amount of blind hatred, which many of you seem to think is the only appropriate reaction towards Russia and its actions.

Perhaps, just perhaps, the Russians aren't the only people being brainwashed by the media every day. Perhaps there's some other countries besides Russia whose leaders steer their population towards a certain mindset. Perhaps just being a westerner doesn't automatically make you right and your country the absolute role model of lawfulness and complete moral correctness. Perhaps we are none better.
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
March 07 2014 15:20 GMT
#4689
Perhaps. (As you like that word a lot...) But one should go for the explanation with the most evidence and prevalent arguments.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18835 Posts
March 07 2014 15:20 GMT
#4690
There's a difference between making an honest appraisal of the situation, one that acknowledges the information war going on around us, and languishing in the pit of relativism, too afraid to make a commitment to anything of substance. You're suggesting we go with the latter, and to that I say nay. This isn't about considering ourselves better, it is about calling a homophobic, invading spade a spade.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
March 07 2014 15:27 GMT
#4691
it's kind of easier for people who are in constant doubt to doubt the side the majority follows, because not doing so would be giving up on doubting. the conspiracy theorist is kind of epistemicly mad.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
March 07 2014 15:33 GMT
#4692
On March 07 2014 23:49 Ghanburighan wrote:
https://twitter.com/BBCWillVernon/status/441947835047899136

How on earth can they think that sending observers from the only country that stands to gain from the referendum will grant them legitimacy O_o

Why would you think they think so ? It is a PR move, probably mostly targeted for the internal consumption in Russia and to keep the pretense. International diplomacy is mostly about pretense and keeping the image.
radiatoren
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Denmark1907 Posts
March 07 2014 15:34 GMT
#4693
On March 07 2014 23:51 m4ini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2014 23:49 Ghanburighan wrote:
https://twitter.com/BBCWillVernon/status/441947835047899136

How on earth can they think that sending observers from the only country that stands to gain from the referendum will grant them legitimacy O_o



"Observers = legitimate, we saw this in russian TV".


Actually that is pretty much in line with what other informations are available:
TV station replaced
Jamming communication
As long as you can keep the information war in Russias favour untill the march 16 elections they can claim the crimean people have spoken. Sending observers from Russia is not for the west, it is for making the Crimean people trust in the results of the election.
Repeat before me
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
March 07 2014 15:37 GMT
#4694
On March 08 2014 00:05 Ghanburighan wrote:
Anyone have a working FA subscription?

https://twitter.com/ForeignAffairs/status/441946372645076992

was able to see it without one.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21916 Posts
March 07 2014 15:39 GMT
#4695
On March 08 2014 00:14 Infini wrote:
I've read through every single page of this thread, and I gotta say, the amount of bias you people show against Russia is a bit sad for me.

Most people here are like "OF COURSE ! Russia is brainwashing their population", "OF COURSE ! Russia is the only evil element in this whole situation", "OF COURSE ! every Russian posting in here is a brainwashed bloodthirsty maniac"... I mean, come on guys.

I'm a Pole, one side of my family was practically wiped out by the Russians (during WW2), and I can't bring myself to feel this scary amount of blind hatred, which many of you seem to think is the only appropriate reaction towards Russia and its actions.

Perhaps, just perhaps, the Russians aren't the only people being brainwashed by the media every day. Perhaps there's some other countries besides Russia whose leaders steer their population towards a certain mindset. Perhaps just being a westerner doesn't automatically make you right and your country the absolute role model of lawfulness and complete moral correctness. Perhaps we are none better.


Do you believe Fascist Nazis are in charge in the Ukraine?
Do you believe Fascist Nazis are trying to murder Russians in Crimea?
Do you believe armed Russians are occupying Crimea?

People are blaming the Russians because the evidence is stacked against them.
People are calling some of the posters here brainwashed because there opinions are so far removed from perceived reality.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
mijagi182
Profile Joined March 2011
Poland797 Posts
March 07 2014 15:40 GMT
#4696
On March 08 2014 00:14 Infini wrote:
I've read through every single page of this thread, and I gotta say, the amount of bias you people show against Russia is a bit sad for me.

Most people here are like "OF COURSE ! Russia is brainwashing their population", "OF COURSE ! Russia is the only evil element in this whole situation", "OF COURSE ! every Russian posting in here is a brainwashed bloodthirsty maniac"... I mean, come on guys.

I'm a Pole, one side of my family was practically wiped out by the Russians (during WW2), and I can't bring myself to feel this scary amount of blind hatred, which many of you seem to think is the only appropriate reaction towards Russia and its actions.

Perhaps, just perhaps, the Russians aren't the only people being brainwashed by the media every day. Perhaps there's some other countries besides Russia whose leaders steer their population towards a certain mindset. Perhaps just being a westerner doesn't automatically make you right and your country the absolute role model of lawfulness and complete moral correctness. Perhaps we are none better.


So you say we are brainwashed or what? If you Perhaps think we are, maybe you will give us your take on the situation?
oh in the sun sun having fun
snailz
Profile Joined April 2011
Croatia900 Posts
March 07 2014 15:41 GMT
#4697
On March 08 2014 00:14 Infini wrote:
I've read through every single page of this thread, and I gotta say, the amount of bias you people show against Russia is a bit sad for me.

Most people here are like "OF COURSE ! Russia is brainwashing their population", "OF COURSE ! Russia is the only evil element in this whole situation", "OF COURSE ! every Russian posting in here is a brainwashed bloodthirsty maniac"... I mean, come on guys.

I'm a Pole, one side of my family was practically wiped out by the Russians (during WW2), and I can't bring myself to feel this scary amount of blind hatred, which many of you seem to think is the only appropriate reaction towards Russia and its actions.

Perhaps, just perhaps, the Russians aren't the only people being brainwashed by the media every day. Perhaps there's some other countries besides Russia whose leaders steer their population towards a certain mindset. Perhaps just being a westerner doesn't automatically make you right and your country the absolute role model of lawfulness and complete moral correctness. Perhaps we are none better.


can you really it dumb it down to bias against xy nation? or west vs east indoctrination?

i've looked up your profile and it's obvious you've been lurking around here for quite a long time. so you should know how previous discussions around international diplomacy shaped up. my question to you, if it was fair for vast majority of TL to critize US doing similiar things in the past, now that Russian Federation is doing them, can we really absolve them only on a basis they are "the enemy we don't know" and that's making us paranoid and bias? i for one don't think that's fair, and am of the opinion that Russia - same as every other country that's been trashed on these boards (not just the World Police of America) - should be held accountable for its actions, by the same criteria that was used to pass judgement on other hostile nations in certain situations in a past decade or so.
"I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch." - intrigue
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
March 07 2014 15:42 GMT
#4698
On March 08 2014 00:37 oneofthem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 08 2014 00:05 Ghanburighan wrote:
Anyone have a working FA subscription?

https://twitter.com/ForeignAffairs/status/441946372645076992

was able to see it without one.


Saw it myself now. Weird. I guess I didn't try hard enough. Updated the above post with the text of the article.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Lord Tolkien
Profile Joined November 2012
United States12083 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-07 15:51:32
March 07 2014 15:50 GMT
#4699
On March 08 2014 00:05 Ghanburighan wrote:
Anyone have a working FA subscription?

https://twitter.com/ForeignAffairs/status/441946372645076992

Yes.

I'm leery of using it for this, but here.

+ Show Spoiler +
Russian President Vladimir Putin’s startling military takeover of Crimea in response to the February revolution in Kiev left Western leaders scrambling. Internationally, Putin seems the master grand strategist, just as he had after his successful effort in September 2013 to head off potential aerial strikes on Syria. At home, he appears equally in command, having ruled Russia for the last 15 years, with another ten years a distinct possibility. It would be a mistake, however, to overestimate Putin or Russia -- or to underestimate how badly his gambit in Ukraine could turn out for him. Finding a way out of this crisis requires an understanding both of why Putin instigated it and of how it will affect his rule.

Putin’s thinking was on display in a March 4 press conference, his first public statement since the Crimea crisis began. He referred to the events in Kiev not as a revolution but as “an anticonstitutional coup and armed seizure of power,” calling the current authorities in Kiev “illegitimate.” He blamed the West for interference in Ukraine, drawing a comparison to “America employees of some laboratory … conducting experiments like on rats, not understanding the consequences of what they are doing.” And he denied that Russia had deployed forces in Crimea, but reserved the right to do so (and not only in Crimea) to protect the local population. Several Western journalists immediately asked whether Putin had lost his mind.

Putin’s statements, however, were neither new nor crazy, although obviously one-sided and, to Western ears, occasionally bizarre. (The claim about “local self-defense forces” not being Russian soldiers was, to put it mildly, inconsistent with other reports.) Rather, they were the product of a worldview fairly widely shared among the Russian political elite, who believe that the West is out to get them. At any rate, the main audience for Putin’s statements was not Westerners but Russians, whom Putin would like to convince of the West’s nefarious ends. Putin sees the Ukrainian revolution not simply as a geostrategic defeat for Russia but one that was engineered in the West. He believes that the West instigated the revolution to bring the country into the Western orbit, despite its natural propensity to ally with Russia. Furthermore, he notes, the West was prepared to cynically make common cause with violent extreme nationalists to achieve its goals.

The behavior of Western diplomats during the revolution reinforced this viewpoint. For example, although the highlight for Western listeners from a leaked phone conversation between Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt earlier this year was Nuland’s blunt declaration “Fuck the EU,” the important part of the conversation for Russian observers was the seemingly casual way in which Nuland indicated her preferences about the best political course of action for “Yats” and “Klitsch,” the Ukrainian opposition leaders Arseniy Yatsenyuk and Vitali Klitschko. Russia thus sees U.S. claims that it did not interfere in the Ukrainian revolution and that it wants Ukrainians “to determine their own future” as hypocritical and even mendacious.

Moreover, for Putin, the recent Ukrainian revolution was just the latest episode in a long-term and cynical game the West has played to try to bring former Soviet republics such as Belarus, Georgia, Moldova, and Ukraine into the Western orbit, including through externally sponsored “regime change.” He sees both the 2003 Georgian Rose Revolution and the 2004 Ukrainian Orange Revolution through this lens. And that view was further reinforced in 2008 when NATO committed to eventual membership for Georgia and Ukraine.

Worse, Putin and his circle believe that the West has every intention of infecting Russia with what pro-Putin commentators call the “Orange plague,” referring to the 2004 Ukrainian Revolution. Putin believes his domestic opponents are part of the same conspiracy to weaken Russia; in November 2007, he told supporters that “those who oppose us…need a weak, sick state,” accusing them of being “jackals” scavenging for foreign support. Putin’s fears were seemingly confirmed when large public protests broke out in Moscow after falsified parliamentary elections in December 2011. When Hillary Clinton, the U.S. Secretary of State at the time, criticized the conduct of the elections, Putin stated that opposition leaders “heard the signal and with the support of the U.S. State Department began active work." In June 2013, Putin again complained about Western double standards and interference, maintaining that the U.S. diplomatic mission “works together [with] and directly supports the Russian opposition.” Accordingly, over the last several years, he has worked to limit foreign influence in Russia, including by prohibiting the U.S. Agency for International Development from operating inside the country.

STRONG, SELF-CONFIDENT, AND STABLE

Although it would be easy to dismiss Putin’s suspicions about nefarious Western intentions as propaganda for domestic consumption only, this vision has been articulated too often (including in unscripted settings) by too many Russian elites for too many years to ignore. What the United States sees as democracy promotion Putin sees as encouragement for regime change. On one level, he is right; if Russia had a more open political system, his ability to hold onto power might be threatened.

In the face of this perceived threat, Putin’s central goal is not to re-create the Soviet Union, although his proposed Eurasian Economic Union is a step in that direction, but to hang on to power at home. Accentuating the threat from the West -- and the costs of revolution in Ukraine -- are signals to all Russians about the importance of internal stability (and thus the continuation of the current political system, with Putin at its top). He went out of his way in his March 4 press conference to stress the much higher standard of living in Russia compared to Ukraine, and maintained that if the Ukrainian state had been “strong, self-confident, and stable” then chaos would have been averted.

The Ukrainian revolution is particularly troublesome for Putin because it comes at a time of growing concern about the fragility of the Russian political and economic system, and the Ukrainians’ complaints about their regime -- dissatisfaction with a corrupt kleptocracy based on close links between ruling elites and economic oligarchs provided fuel to the revolution -- are echoed in Russia. Some of Putin’s closest acquaintances from his St. Petersburg past have grown fabulously wealthy, and many of these same people profited handsomely from contracts for the Sochi Olympics. The Russian opposition leader Alexi Navalny’s meme about how the ruling United Russia party is the “party of swindlers and thieves” was one of the most effective opposition slogans during the 2011–2012 protests.

Russia’s domestic outlook is also considerably less rosy than it was in 2008, when Russian troops went into Georgia, and elite confidence in the Kremlin is consequently weaker. In 2008, Putin’s popularity ratings were at an all-time high (over 80 percent), Russia had experienced eight years of sustained economic growth of roughly seven percent a year, and world oil prices had temporarily shot to over $140 per barrel (although the average for the whole year was slightly less than $100 per barrel). Today, Putin is still popular (over 60 percent approval ratings), but the economic outlook is very different. Growth in 2013 was a mere 1.4 percent, and this at a time when the price of oil has remained over $100 per barrel for three years straight. Oil and gas revenues account for over half of Russian budget receipts, but it now takes world oil prices of around $110–115 per barrel to balance the budget, compared to $20 per barrel in 2005. Further, the Russian state-controlled energy giants of Rosneft (oil) and Gazprom (gas) have been slow to keep up with revolutionary changes in world energy production and transportation, such as hydrofracking and liquid natural gas.

Russian elites are increasingly concerned that Russia’s economic stagnation is not temporary but systemic, a product of accumulated problems and inefficiencies. Last year, the Ministry of Economic Development downgraded its long-range economic growth projections from annual increases of 4.3 to 2.5 percent, well below the rates to which Russia had grown accustomed in the 2000s. Productivity and investment remain low, and human capital spending (spending on education and health care) suffers at the expense of higher salaries for state officials and an ambitious defense buildup, which has been marked by corruption, cost overruns, and unrealistic targets. Russia is economically uncompetitive with developed economies, which have innovative and productive work forces, and poorer countries, which have lower wages and competitive manufacturing industries, and thus more dependent than ever on oil and gas exports.

The consensus view among most Russian economists, and a view endorsed both by Putin and Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev, is that Russia needs institutional reforms to encourage investment, reduce capital flight, and modernize and diversify the economy. But “institutional reform” is simply code for a stronger rule of law, less corruption, and more robust protection of private property rights. All of these changes are unlikely absent broader political reforms that increase accountability, transparency, and competition -- in other words, a total reversal of Russian politics since Putin came to power.

Finally, the image of Putin as Russia’s unrivaled strongman is at best an oversimplification. The current Russian regime is not a monolith but a fractious group of competing oligarchs, clans, and temporary alliances. The security elites (the so-called siloviki) who surround Putin may agree that the West is a threat and that Russia needs to restrict domestic opposition in the name of stability, but they are also often at odds with each other, especially when there are bribes to be extorted. Just last week, a turf dispute between the Federal Security Service and the Ministry of Internal Affairs led to recriminations, dismissals, and arrests. Meanwhile, the prosecutor’s office has been locked in bitter conflict with the Investigative Committee for several years. Putin’s Russia is more a disordered police state than a well-ordered one.

OFF RAMP

The Economist presciently observed in early February that “the danger for the world is that a weaker Mr. Putin may be a more aggressive one, in Ukraine and elsewhere.” Indeed, even if we accept that Putin blames the West for the Ukraine crisis, his Crimean démarche seems both emotional and dangerously provocative. Certainly, understanding Putin’s worldview and the real problems and challenges facing his regime does not excuse Russian actions in Crimea, but it does provide a better standpoint from which to end the crisis than a framework emphasizing alleged innate Russian characteristics or overemphasizing the Russian challenge.

A good start would be to avoid as much as possible a zero-sum framing of the Ukraine crisis, in which a victory for Russia is a loss for the West, and vice versa. Economic sanctions targeted on the Russian political and economic elite, along the lines being proposed by the United States, are much more likely to have a positive effect than confrontational steps, especially military ones, that will simply confirm for Putin that he is right about the West’s real and nefarious intentions. Recent proposals to provide Putin an “off ramp” by brokering a diplomatic agreement for Russia to pull back its troops while international monitors come in to prevent human rights violations are smart. The West should also push Kiev “to clean up its act” and legitimize itself, not only through new elections but also with efforts to reach out to politicians from Ukraine’s south and east that were previously allied with Yanukovych. That would undercut Putin’s stated concern about the illegitimacy of the new government and about the need for a “humanitarian mission” to “defend Ukrainian citizens.” A commitment by Ukraine’s current leaders to honor the Russian Black Sea Fleet basing agreement and not push for NATO membership would also help.

There may still be some space to defuse the Crimean crisis. Unfortunately, the March 6 fast-tracking of a Crimean referendum on unification with Russia, if Putin is behind it, suggests that he decided to speed right past the “off ramp” and head straight for formal annexation. In that case, the prospects for positive-sum outcomes will have shrunk considerably. If Russia does formally annex Crimea, the United States and Europe should go ahead with sanctions, in order to hit Russian elites in their pocketbooks. In the medium term, the United States should help Central and Eastern European governments to diversify their energy supplies, away from their dependence on Russian gas.

Finally, annexation and its inevitable consequences of sanctions and isolation for Russia would probably also mean a further strengthening of the fortress mentality that is already dominant among Putin’s circle. He might choose to tighten the screws domestically even more. Such steps would not, however, create either the economic prosperity or the political stability that Putin desires and which ordinary Russians deserve.

Additionally, I don't expect an immediate, diplomatic or political outcome that isn't favorable to Russia, even if the situation is defused. At the very least, Putin will get an guarantee on continued basing rights in Sevastapol as a precondition and alleviate a significant security concern there, as a foregone conclusion in any negotiation; he has the upper hand, both effectively occupying the Crimea currently, as well as having popular support in the Crimea. And he does have a credible enough case to make based on international law; and self-determination is an enshrined right in international law. Note the UN charter.

Several parallels to be made to Kosovo, despite obvious differences. There is quite the degree of hypocrisy when Western nations are calling the vote for self-determination illegitimate, and arguing that the territorial integrity and sovereignty of Ukraine trumps that, given it contradicts NATO military interventions in the former Yugoslavia.


Now the long-term consequences of an annexation is more uncertain.


EDIT: Spoiler that shit, much scrolling. too wow
"His father is pretty juicy tbh." ~WaveofShadow
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
March 07 2014 15:50 GMT
#4700
On March 08 2014 00:20 Ghanburighan wrote:
Perhaps. (As you like that word a lot...) But one should go for the explanation with the most evidence and prevalent arguments.

But evidence that is available in this case can give you only facts. So for example evidence can tell you that there are Russian troops in Crimea and Russians are lying about that. But evidence here won't tell you anything about whether Russian actions is justified or whether West is also partially responsible for the crisis or whether being tough on Russia makes sense or myriad other topics that are discussed in this thread.

And opinions on those topics are pretty biased from most people, mostly based on their country of origin due to lifelong indoctrination of opinions prevalent in their society. I do not mean indoctrination as a pejorative word here, just as a description of the fact that our opinion on complex social problems is highly dependent on how our brain has been trained by the society we live in. Just as an example if you group opinion of people from Germany and compare them to opinions of people from Baltics, the difference is extremely visible. There is some consensus and I am not saying that no reasonable conclusion can be reached, but a lot of posts suffer from significant bias.

And in such biased atmosphere, where all information is going through "content massage" and manipulation on both sides, going to the prevalent argument is absolutely no guarantee of anything resembling the truth.
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