EPTUkraine Crisis - Page 161
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On March 04 2014 03:55 mahrgell wrote: o.O Germany was a democracy before WW1, Japan was a democracy before WW2... (and their emperor even remained in power..) And good that we now quote 18th century revolutions(without any outside help) as 'military intervention' Japan was a military dictatorship before WW2, their democracy was overthrown in the early 30s, the Emperor held no governing powers like the German one. Germany was a 'democracy' where all major decisions were made the Kaiser and his conservative Chancellor. | ||
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Saumure
France404 Posts
On March 04 2014 03:53 xDaunt wrote: I hope everyone who has previously given the US shit for its "abuses" as the world super power are enjoying what they're seeing. This is a nice glimpse into what the post-Pax Americana future looks like. How nice of you to put abuses in "." | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5219 Posts
On March 04 2014 03:49 Lonyo wrote: So like... Ukraine has a democratically elected government. People don't like what they are doing so they force them out. EU sides with the rebels because it's in their interest. Russia sides with the ex-Government because it's in their interest. Rebels decide to oppress the Russian-leaning citizens. Russia steps in to protect them, the EU complains because Russia is protecting citizens from oppression at the hands of rebels who took power by force. And so Russia are the bad guys. 2 sides to every story. You left out the part where Russia is going to annex Crimea (the Duma is preparing the bill as we speak), and what they are doing is against international law. http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/03/03/crimea-now-under-de-facto-russian-control-as-west-scrambles-to-ramp-up-diplomatic-pressure/ Don't forget that Hitler stepped into Czechoslovakia for the same reason, to protect Germans. Then just decided to annex the country. Hmm... On March 04 2014 03:58 Ghanburighan wrote: Why are we talking about BronzeKnee's random claims? They aren't even related to the topic. No one if forcing you to respond to me, if people want to talk me, that is their choice. Prove what I've said is random claim, don't just claim it. Or are you just mad that I'm making good points you can't respond to? Possibly pro-Russian? | ||
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Saryph
United States1955 Posts
On March 04 2014 03:51 Saryph wrote: Starting to see reports that assault on Ukrainian naval HQ has begun. They're saying that baseball bat wielding titushki, with Russian soldiers with machine-guns backing them up. Can anyone tell me more about this site and if my google translate is wrong? http://glavcom.ua/news/189682.html Also there are reports of Russian tugboats blocking the Ukrainian navy into their own harbor, preventing their ability to move during the Russian's ultimatum to surrender or else. | ||
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
On March 04 2014 03:53 xDaunt wrote: I hope everyone who has previously given the US shit for its "abuses" as the world super power are enjoying what they're seeing. This is a nice glimpse into what the post-Pax Americana future looks like. It isn't really America's place to intervene in the Ukraine, as it is more of a European issue. The reason that the British public are so against war (such as Syria) is because we do not think that we should of been involved in GW Bush's wars. Afghanistan was a revenge attack against a suitable target because you could not actually attack the people responsible for 9/11. Iraq had no WMD's and was just GW finishing what his father started. See how easy it is to make the situation fit biased pre-existing beliefs? | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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Sent.
Poland9296 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5219 Posts
On March 04 2014 04:05 Sent. wrote: I don't think Russia wants or needs to annex Crimea. They can just make it another Abkhazia/Transnistria. I'd say they want to... The Duma is preparing the bill right now to annex Crimea... http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/03/03/crimea-now-under-de-facto-russian-control-as-west-scrambles-to-ramp-up-diplomatic-pressure/ | ||
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Saryph
United States1955 Posts
![[image loading]](http://images.unian.net/photos/2014_03/1393867525-5710-kryim.jpg) An image put together by journalists of Russian positions at key points in Crimean peninsula. Source If google translated something wrong, or if that is an unreliable source, would someone let me know? | ||
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Jaaaaasper
United States10225 Posts
On March 04 2014 04:05 Nyxisto wrote: Although historic resemblances come to mind here please don't act like Putin is literally Hitler. The decisions that need to be made here are very concrete and I doubt that "hey, the situation vaguely remembers me of Hitler annexing Czechoslovakia about a hundred years ago" is a very good argument. Well he is taking the "protecting ethnic russians" right out of the hitler play book, and a british leader named chamlberlain's manhood did just shrivel back up into his body. And he has rigged elections while claiming to be the beloved leader of his nation, and he is setting a minority up to be discriminated against and even lynched to distract his people from the shit hes doing,so this is better than most of the times a world leader has been called literally hitler. | ||
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Saumure
France404 Posts
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SilentchiLL
Germany1405 Posts
On March 04 2014 03:54 BronzeKnee wrote: I did not fail to bring up another source. I brought a recent and relevant source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Georgia–Russia_crisis Listen, the fact of the matter is, this is just like WW2 in a lot ways. I'm well versed in history, I've studied it for most of life. Are there differences? Sure, but nothing is ever exactly alike. However, the reasoning for the invasion and diplomatic stance of nations is nearly exactly the same. Hitler used the same reasoning that Putin is using to take over Czechoslovakia and Poland: to protect native Germans and German speakers. That is the reason Russian troops currently occupy Ukraine, to protect native Russians and Russian speakers. Is it not? Don't argue, because that is the reason Russia is giving. But now they want to annex Crimea and build a bridge from Russia to Crimea to bypass Ukraine. From protection of native Russians to annexation... where have I seen that before? Oh right, Czechoslovakia, prior to WW2. And where I have seen the the European response for diplomacy to solve invasions? Oh right, prior WW2. That's a nice little source you got there. But once again you ignore what doesn't fit your view completely, Georgia wasn't a NATO country back then, it was an aspiring member on the road to become one, it was also not way as clear cut as the case with the ukraine or any other nation Russia may invade afterwards is. And if you are so "well versed" in history, how the hell do you manage to ignore the gigantic differences between the world we had back then and the world we have now? The stance of nations are exactly the same you say? No they aren't, not by a long shot, Putin isn't ready to go to war with the western world as Hitler was, there are also no empty promises from monarchs nowadays and the entire worldview of countries is different, with the trauma of the second world war and the time under the soviets the eastern nations will also react very different and to a lesser degree so will the rest of the world. The very thing you cite as a "proof" for your scenario to play out is a reason why it probably won't happen that way. Stop using "historic" reasons like that, the world changed in a lot of ways, only people with an extremely simplified view of things would accept the world wars as good examples for probable diplomatic outcomes nowadays. And do not tell me not to argue, the given reasons are pretty different as well since even with the russian provocations nothing has actually happened to the "russian citizens" Putin wants to protect and it's quite obvious that it's just a thinly veiled attempt to create a casus belli so he can try to keep the Ukraine as a vassal. You talk about a "european response" in your post and compare it to the times before WW2, yet you YET AGAIN completely ignore the obvious things that don't fit your worldview. As divided as europe still is today, we are WAY closer diplomatically, economically and politically to each other nowadays. On March 04 2014 04:03 BronzeKnee wrote: No one if forcing you to respond to me, if people want to talk me, that is their choice. Prove what I've said is random claim, don't just claim it. Or are you just mad that I'm making good points you can't respond to? Possibly pro-Russian? Are shouldn't you prove your random claim before you ask people to disprove it? | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
On March 04 2014 04:10 Jaaaaasper wrote: Well he is taking the "protecting ethnic russians" right out of the hitler play book, and a british leader named chamlberlain's manhood did just shrivel back up into his body. And he has rigged elections while claiming to be the beloved leader of his nation, and he is setting a minority up to be discriminated against and even lynched to distract his people from the shit hes doing,so this is better than most of the times a world leader has been called literally hitler. And since Putin = Hitler the western forces need to declare war against Russia right now because that's the only reasonable course of action since everything else is weak and spineless. Am I understanding you and and BronzeKnee correct? | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6272 Posts
On March 04 2014 03:55 mahrgell wrote: o.O Germany was a democracy before WW1, Japan was a democracy before WW2... (and their emperor even remained in power..) And good that we now quote 18th century revolutions(without any outside help) as 'military intervention' The American revolution did have help from the outside from the French and West-Germany was forced back into a democracy after a war. | ||
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plgElwood
Germany518 Posts
Donezk, charkow will be next I guess | ||
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Jaaaaasper
United States10225 Posts
On March 04 2014 04:18 r.Evo wrote: And since Putin = Hitler the western forces need to declare war against Russia right now because that's the only reasonable course of action since everything else is weak and spineless. Am I understanding you and and BronzeKnee correct? I don't think I said war needs to be declared now, I just said this is a less shitty literally hitler claim than just about every other time it was claimed. If you actually thought before knee jerking, you would notice that all I said was the comp was better than most times it used. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On March 04 2014 04:10 Jaaaaasper wrote: Well he is taking the "protecting ethnic russians" right out of the hitler play book, and a british leader named chamlberlain's manhood did just shrivel back up into his body. And he has rigged elections while claiming to be the beloved leader of his nation, and he is setting a minority up to be discriminated against and even lynched to distract his people from the shit hes doing,so this is better than most of the times a world leader has been called literally hitler. The playing field is very different now. The economy of Europe and the US combined are now 15x larger than Russias. We have weapons around now that I don't want to see being used in a WW III scenario. Russia isn't a superpower any more. Sharp economic sanctions, especially hitting the Russian leadership and important state companies are probably way more potent now then getting into a military conflict. Russia, simply for economic reasons, can't afford to mess up it's relationships much more. We already have the bigger leverage and can sit this one out. | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
The most important thing is for us – the United States – to make sure that we don’t go off without the European community,” Reid said Monday in the Capitol. “We have to work with them. Their interests are really paramount if we are going to do sanctions of some kind. We have to have them on board with us.” | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On March 04 2014 04:22 Nyxisto wrote: The playing field is very different now. The economy of Europe and the US combined are now 15x larger than Russias. We have weapons around now that I don't want to see being used in a WW III scenario. Russia isn't a superpower any more. Sharp economic sanctions, especially hitting the Russian leadership and important state companies are probably way more potent now then getting into a military conflict. Russia, simply for economic reasons, can't afford to mess up it's relationships much more. We already have the bigger leverage and can sit this one out. This is the right attitude, there no need for any actual blood shed but since the UK government has already decided that London's financial markets will not be closed to Russians and Russian assets will not be targeted then all that will happen is a visa ban. Seems like a cheap price to pay for someone invading and annexing parts of a country. | ||
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