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On March 02 2014 20:21 whiteLotus wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 20:10 r.Evo wrote:On March 02 2014 19:52 whiteLotus wrote:
Yep im pretty sure all 3 baltic countries are very worried right now, cuz this just shows how easy it is for russia to do what they want, NATO or not, no one would help them. How is that even a comparison? NATO has zero business in Ukraine. NATO has a LOT of business when it comes to protecting actual member states which is kind of the whole point. "NATO has no business in Ukraine, it protects Poland and the Baltic states, etc etc." - in theory yes. The same question always gets asked when it comes to collective defense... are we willing to sacrifice Chicago for Riga, New York for Talinn, Los Angeles for Vilnius? The short-term answer would be to let the Russians have their buffer zone back, with the understanding that no further expansion would be tolerated, in order to ensure peace. If this sounds familiar, its because it's what happened to Czechoslovakia in 1938, in an attempt to satiate Germany. In doing so, it fundamentally undermines the premise of collective defense, and puts a vast number of European countries on notice that America won't protect them. This would encourage arms buildups, decreased American influence, and could encourage Russia to try and expand its reach further westward, bit by bit.
Everyone knows this including Putin which is exactly why the rest of NATO has an interest in protecting the Baltic states. I don't think Putin has the guts to invade the Baltics at least not yet. It's very risky for little benefit.
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On March 02 2014 19:27 MyrMindservant wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 18:55 AleXoundOS wrote:On March 02 2014 17:52 Sub40APM wrote:On March 02 2014 17:44 AleXoundOS wrote:On March 02 2014 17:16 AA.spoon wrote:
Yanoukovich got impeached live on television. Why do you keep denying it?
I'm not defending Yanukovich, but there was no impeachment. How the procedure must be held according to Ukrainian laws www.uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Імпічмент: + Show Spoiler +Процедура імпічменту
* не менш як 226 народних депутатів ініціюють питання про усунення Президента України з поста;
* парламент створює спеціальну тимчасову слідчу комісію, до якої входять спеціальний прокурор і спеціальні слідчі;
* висновки і пропозиції тимчасової слідчої комісії розглядаються на засіданні Верховної Ради України;
* за наявності підстав не менш як 300 народних депутатів приймають рішення про звинувачення Президента України;
* Конституційний суд виносить висновок щодо додержання конституційної процедури розслідування і розгляду справи про імпічмент;
* Верховний Суд України підтверджує наявність у діях обвинувачуваного ознак державної зради чи іншого злочину;
* не менш як 338 парламентаріїв приймають рішення про усунення Президента України з поста;
* виконання обов'язків Президента України покладається на Прем'єр-міністра України
Here is the actual text of the constitution, not a wikipedia page. Стаття 111. Президент України може бути усунений з поста Верховною Радою України в порядку імпічменту у разі вчинення ним державної зради або іншого злочину.
{Офіційне тлумачення частини першої статті 111 див. в Рішенні Конституційного Суду № 19-рп/2003 від 10.12.2003}
Питання про усунення Президента України з поста в порядку імпічменту ініціюється більшістю від конституційного складу Верховної Ради України.
Для проведення розслідування Верховна Рада України створює спеціальну тимчасову слідчу комісію, до складу якої включаються спеціальний прокурор і спеціальні слідчі.
Висновки і пропозиції тимчасової слідчої комісії розглядаються на засіданні Верховної Ради України.
За наявності підстав Верховна Рада України не менш як двома третинами від її конституційного складу приймає рішення про звинувачення Президента України.
Рішення про усунення Президента України з поста в порядку імпічменту приймається Верховною Радою України не менш як трьома четвертими від її конституційного складу після перевірки справи Конституційним Судом України і отримання його висновку щодо додержання конституційної процедури розслідування і розгляду справи про імпічмент та отримання висновку Верховного Суду України про те, що діяння, в яких звинувачується Президент України, містять ознаки державної зради або іншого злочину. http://zakon4.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/254%D0%BA/96-%D0%B2%D1%80/page3 I will just post google translate of this so that you won't say that I composed it: The decision to remove the President of Ukraine from office on impeachment adopted by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine of not less than three-fourths of its constitutional composition after checking case the Constitutional Court of Ukraine and getting his opinion on compliance with the constitutional procedure of investigation and impeachment proceedings and obtaining the opinion of the Supreme Court of Ukraine that of which the accused the President of Ukraine, contain elements of state treason or other crime.Only Verhovna Rada of Ukraine made decision without any court. True, but Constitutional Court of Ukraine was completely in the pocket of Yanukovich.
We cannot be assured how much independent it was. And claiming this you disrupt sovereignty of country breaking legitimacy that is based mainly on Constitutional Court, one of the main institutes of authority.
And saying that the new acting "president" who somehow bypassed Ukrainian laws is legit is a mistake too. Also nobody puts Yanukovich back (even in Russia despite saying that he's a president). But he is a president with 0 powers. New acting "president" is de facto president in the new theatre of government until the situation goes back to constitutional course and a new president will be elected.
EU, publicly supporting violation of laws is a bad precedent.
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On March 02 2014 20:29 rudimentalfeelthelov wrote:
Go Russia. Russia hwaiting!
a bit different thread here
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On March 02 2014 20:22 Uriel_SVK wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 20:13 zezamer wrote:
NATO will collapse if they fail to protect a member
NATO has no obligations to Ukraine But USA and GB guarantee territorial integrity of Ukraine, if they dont respond to this invasion it could lead to much bigger problems
They guarantee it as much as France and Great Britain guaranteed sovereignty of Poland before the Second World War. 
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I think it´s actually funnny.
Putin´s media claims "The Ukraine Nazis/fascists have taken Kiev not let them Take your lovely Krim" . We will help !
Seeing how a mass is manipulated by lies, and being aware thet Bush/Powell did THE EXACT SAME THING to "our half of the world" by claiming Irak has weapons of mass-destruction....
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This is a sad world we live in... maybe they could settle their disputes with a game of Starcraft?
Best Ukranian vs best Russian, Bo7
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On March 02 2014 20:38 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 20:22 Uriel_SVK wrote:On March 02 2014 20:13 zezamer wrote:
NATO will collapse if they fail to protect a member
NATO has no obligations to Ukraine But USA and GB guarantee territorial integrity of Ukraine, if they dont respond to this invasion it could lead to much bigger problems They guarantee it as much as France and Great Britain guaranteed sovereignty of Poland before the Second World War.
Im from slovakia so i know how that ended Maybe it would not end with second world war if GB and France would not ignore germany invasion.
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So russia has now declared war some sources claim?
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On March 02 2014 20:45 -Archangel- wrote:This is a sad world we live in... maybe they could settle their disputes with a game of Starcraft? Best Ukranian vs best Russian, Bo7
Actually I wonder what will happen to Navi after all of this. XBOCT lives in Yalta (Crimea), Dendi in Lviv and Funnik in Kharkov...
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On March 02 2014 20:40 plgElwood wrote:
Seeing how a mass is manipulated by lies, and being aware thet Bush/Powell did THE EXACT SAME THING to "our half of the world" by claiming Irak has weapons of mass-destruction....
Yeah, i understand your point, but to be completely honest, i think there were a lot of people who didn't "bought it". I don't know exactly how it went for other countries, but on Spain a 95% of the population was against Iraq's war.
Even if we have some Russians on this thread making mental gymnastics to try to justify the rash occupation, we can't take for granted that opinion is equally popular along the rest of the russians.
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On March 02 2014 20:46 Uriel_SVK wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 20:38 maybenexttime wrote:On March 02 2014 20:22 Uriel_SVK wrote:On March 02 2014 20:13 zezamer wrote:
NATO will collapse if they fail to protect a member
NATO has no obligations to Ukraine But USA and GB guarantee territorial integrity of Ukraine, if they dont respond to this invasion it could lead to much bigger problems They guarantee it as much as France and Great Britain guaranteed sovereignty of Poland before the Second World War. Im from slovakia so i know how that ended Maybe it would not end with second world war if GB and France would not ignore germany invasion.
In 30's Poland actually offered France and GB to preemptively strike Germany before the country would be ready for a war, several times. After the Treaty of Versailles Polish army was much stronger than the German one, even though our state was just reestablished. Combined with forces of France and Great Britain this would've been a quick affair. They, however, declined.
As for the war itself, I've read that French and British forces combined outnumbered German defence forces on their western border roughly 5:1 and German encampments were not even finished.
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On March 02 2014 20:48 unkkz wrote:
So russia has now declared war some sources claim?
Ukrainian official (Prime minister?) mentioned that Russia's actions are act of war and thus 'declaring' it.
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On March 02 2014 20:59 Grettin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 20:48 unkkz wrote:
So russia has now declared war some sources claim? Ukrainian official (Prime minister?) mentioned that Russia's actions are act of war and thus 'declaring' it.
New president said same
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On March 02 2014 20:54 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 20:46 Uriel_SVK wrote:On March 02 2014 20:38 maybenexttime wrote:On March 02 2014 20:22 Uriel_SVK wrote:On March 02 2014 20:13 zezamer wrote:
NATO will collapse if they fail to protect a member
NATO has no obligations to Ukraine But USA and GB guarantee territorial integrity of Ukraine, if they dont respond to this invasion it could lead to much bigger problems They guarantee it as much as France and Great Britain guaranteed sovereignty of Poland before the Second World War. Im from slovakia so i know how that ended Maybe it would not end with second world war if GB and France would not ignore germany invasion. In 30's Poland actually offered France and GB to preemptively strike Germany before the country would be ready for a war, several times. After the Treaty of Versailles Polish army was much stronger than the German one, even though our state was just reestablished. Combined with forces of France and Great Britain this would've been a quick affair. They, however, declined. As for the war itself, I've read that French and British forces combined outnumbered German defence forces on their western border roughly 5:1 and German encampments were not even finished.
Well the British had virtually no forces in Europe at that time (only had 600,000 men there by May 1940 in comparison to the over 3 million Germany invaded France with) and the French army was large enough to do some serious damage to Germany but, as the Battle of France showed, it was so badly organised that it couldn't put up an effective defence let alone stage an invasion.
The reason Britain and France declined to attack Germany in the 30s is because they were trying to avoid war at all costs, they didn't want to be the aggressors and they were naive enough to think Hitler wasn't as much of a mad man as he was.
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On March 02 2014 21:29 jello_biafra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 20:54 maybenexttime wrote:On March 02 2014 20:46 Uriel_SVK wrote:On March 02 2014 20:38 maybenexttime wrote:On March 02 2014 20:22 Uriel_SVK wrote:On March 02 2014 20:13 zezamer wrote:
NATO will collapse if they fail to protect a member
NATO has no obligations to Ukraine But USA and GB guarantee territorial integrity of Ukraine, if they dont respond to this invasion it could lead to much bigger problems They guarantee it as much as France and Great Britain guaranteed sovereignty of Poland before the Second World War. Im from slovakia so i know how that ended Maybe it would not end with second world war if GB and France would not ignore germany invasion. In 30's Poland actually offered France and GB to preemptively strike Germany before the country would be ready for a war, several times. After the Treaty of Versailles Polish army was much stronger than the German one, even though our state was just reestablished. Combined with forces of France and Great Britain this would've been a quick affair. They, however, declined. As for the war itself, I've read that French and British forces combined outnumbered German defence forces on their western border roughly 5:1 and German encampments were not even finished. Well the British had virtually no forces in Europe at that time (only had 600,000 men there by May 1940 in comparison to the over 3 million Germany invaded France with) and the French army was large enough to do some serious damage to Germany but, as the Battle of France showed, it was so badly organised that it couldn't put up an effective defence let alone stage an invasion. The reason Britain and France declined to attack Germany in the 30s is because they were trying to avoid war at all costs, they didn't want to be the aggressors and they were naive enough to think Hitler wasn't as much of a mad man as he was.
Sort of like today, and we haven't established yet how much of a mad man Putin is. Well, history repeats itself.
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I'm scared. 30 thousand russians are living in Bulgaria. What if they feel threatened? We are so close - on the other side Black sea.
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I read an article in VoiceofRussia (The old pro-government media in Russia).
source
It is quoting the head of Crimeas council as saying:
"We have not asked NATO to send troops. This land belongs to the Russian world. We would like everyone to remember that. It’s a millennium-old history. The people of Russia and Ukraine belong to the Russian world," Konstantinov said.
So much for USA speaking in cold war terms...
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On March 02 2014 21:39 mdb wrote:
I'm scared. 30 thousand russians are living in Bulgaria. What if they feel threatened? We are so close - on the other side Black sea.
Just don't euromaiden and bring fascists to power and you'll be fine
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United States44403 Posts
On March 02 2014 21:41 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 21:39 mdb wrote:
I'm scared. 30 thousand russians are living in Bulgaria. What if they feel threatened? We are so close - on the other side Black sea. Just don't euromaiden and bring fascists to power and you'll be fine
"Do as we wish and we won't invade you"
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np guys, white-ra has this under control, he is deploying speshul taktiks as we speak.
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EPT
