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Light and Flying retire - Page 13

Forum Index > Closed
356 CommentsPost a Reply
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Strela
Profile Joined October 2011
Netherlands1896 Posts
September 17 2013 21:20 GMT
#241
On September 17 2013 16:00 Khai wrote:
T_T When will the bad news end? I hope this doesn't mean Woongjin is disbanding, the sc2 scene has been shrinking way too fast...

Never until the game dies out. People retire all the time its not just in sc2
nighcol
Profile Joined January 2012
298 Posts
September 17 2013 21:23 GMT
#242
On September 18 2013 03:28 Elroi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 18 2013 02:32 Canucklehead wrote:
Someone put an endangered species sign up because elephants are being hunted to extinction!

yeah we have a gstl with what? 4 teams? including soul and Azubu who will break up any day.its sc2, not kespa.


GSTL was hit with the IM, MVP & Prime apparently trying to join the big boys in Kespa more than anything else. I don't think teams switching leagues is really a sign of SC2 dying.
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7032 Posts
September 17 2013 21:25 GMT
#243
On September 18 2013 04:57 sjukungen1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 18 2013 03:41 GeNi wrote:
People need to understand that players retire and that does not mean that the "scene is dead" or sc2 is "dying". When Michael Jordan retired, Basketball did not die. New, younger players rose and the scene is the same as when he played. Sc2 will see younger players rise and help the scene of sc2. The transition from having legends/old bw players retire is necessary if new legends are to be made.



Except they didn't change basketball to basketball 2 which made a lot of the current players lose interest in the game.

What if all baseball players were forced to switch to softball? (it's more accessible!)
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
SupLilSon
Profile Joined October 2011
Malaysia4123 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-17 21:38:21
September 17 2013 21:37 GMT
#244
On September 18 2013 06:25 Grumbels wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 18 2013 04:57 sjukungen1 wrote:
On September 18 2013 03:41 GeNi wrote:
People need to understand that players retire and that does not mean that the "scene is dead" or sc2 is "dying". When Michael Jordan retired, Basketball did not die. New, younger players rose and the scene is the same as when he played. Sc2 will see younger players rise and help the scene of sc2. The transition from having legends/old bw players retire is necessary if new legends are to be made.



Except they didn't change basketball to basketball 2 which made a lot of the current players lose interest in the game.

What if all baseball players were forced to switch to softball? (it's more accessible!)

More applicable, imagine if they removed the 3-point line and made the hoop 5ft instead of 10... What would happen to all the centers who make their living on being tall? Or the players who's value comes from their 3-point shot?

Nvm, your analogy is perfectly fine also :D
Phyanketto
Profile Joined September 2011
United States611 Posts
September 17 2013 21:48 GMT
#245
On September 18 2013 06:37 SupLilSon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 18 2013 06:25 Grumbels wrote:
On September 18 2013 04:57 sjukungen1 wrote:
On September 18 2013 03:41 GeNi wrote:
People need to understand that players retire and that does not mean that the "scene is dead" or sc2 is "dying". When Michael Jordan retired, Basketball did not die. New, younger players rose and the scene is the same as when he played. Sc2 will see younger players rise and help the scene of sc2. The transition from having legends/old bw players retire is necessary if new legends are to be made.



Except they didn't change basketball to basketball 2 which made a lot of the current players lose interest in the game.

What if all baseball players were forced to switch to softball? (it's more accessible!)

More applicable, imagine if they removed the 3-point line and made the hoop 5ft instead of 10... What would happen to all the centers who make their living on being tall? Or the players who's value comes from their 3-point shot?

Nvm, your analogy is perfectly fine also :D

These are both really good analogies. Watching Flash and Jaedong play SC2 is like watching Lebron James and Michael Jordan play middle-school basketball. And all the people in the audience have no respect for how fucking good they are.
세 가지 제어
DinoToss
Profile Joined August 2013
Poland507 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-17 22:14:51
September 17 2013 21:59 GMT
#246
On September 18 2013 05:34 lolfail9001 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 18 2013 05:29 Frumpysnoo wrote:
Old players leave, new players come. It's the way things have always been, and it will continue to happen. It's nice to reminisce the times of players that were once great, but them leaving is not all loom and gloom. Best of luck to them both!

It is true, but since there are no announcements of new players (keep it fair, who knew about Sora before WCG streak :D?) it looks all doom more than anything.

It looks doom and has some merit to it, cause people like Light and Flying were still vital part of their teams despite being on an edge of retirement. No it's more like without them it's the big loss to the team. Its not the "they are dead weight" it's rather, they are old and washed out or want to go but we need them.

Before 1 year passes it will be known if Korean scene is that bad in terms of new blood or not. In BW it was pretty visible when old guards retired and new guards took(TBLS JangBi, Fanta, and other top a-taemers started showing results within 1 year of each other, mostly). Current SC2 look is clouded because of Korean scene split and background noise which is foreign scene, which makes it harder to pinpoint the generation changes, than it was in monotheistic Kespa BW scene.

The other thing i wanted to mention is that, and in the purist's way is even more important than name changes, new people coming in and out. It is gameplay changes (or rather setting the bar higher) that happen when new blood enter the stream. The only magical "TBLS" of SC2 are probaly the three great early heroes, and im afraid the last one too are the MVP, MC and Nestea (with DRG spin off). They happened early, they punched heavily and the end.

It is pretty important to notice the difference between BW TBLS era which (imo) not coincidental with last and most skillful era of BW. And 3 kings of SC2 which not(imo) coincidental with the start of SC2 Korean Scene.

For me (call me negative nancy) not much changed when 150 old and new dogs entered the already established SC2 scene(Enter the Kespa). Im really reluctant to believe even the favored new youngins (i believe in progamer year theory, because it correlates nicely within BW and SC2 history) will change much. Yes military will come and take people, people will get bored, etc. And those people will be replaced with younger ones, but that's not the change we seek.

Further delving into the subject will be too much of a dead horse critisicm of SC2(look last MC woes), not a great topic to do that so but amazing analogy came to my mind.

Lets look at Nada, the most fruitful in terms of longevity character in BW. He started as Boxer rival, engaged into micro battles on 1 base, he transitioned into Iloveoov-Savior times and discovered the macro, on his last stand vs JangBi in MSL he copied the Flash build.

Im just saying this after seeing that Blizzard will take AH out of D3, blizzard can still make a soft reset, and this game I M H O needs one, just like D3 economy. I wouldn't call WoL->HotS much of a reset, honestly.
My wrist really started to flare up. My colossi number started to pile up and with the last of my concentration I prepared for a win.
DeathDyingDoomKiller
Profile Joined October 2012
Canada91 Posts
September 17 2013 22:07 GMT
#247
Flying noooo :C
Join the League of Evil. We have Murder, Evil, Blood, Grim Reaping, Killing, Death, Dying, Doom, Black, Dark Red, John Boehner, Reaper, Slaughter, and Kill-Death.
SupLilSon
Profile Joined October 2011
Malaysia4123 Posts
September 17 2013 22:11 GMT
#248
On September 18 2013 06:59 DinoToss wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 18 2013 05:34 lolfail9001 wrote:
On September 18 2013 05:29 Frumpysnoo wrote:
Old players leave, new players come. It's the way things have always been, and it will continue to happen. It's nice to reminisce the times of players that were once great, but them leaving is not all loom and gloom. Best of luck to them both!

It is true, but since there are no announcements of new players (keep it fair, who knew about Sora before WCG streak :D?) it looks all doom more than anything.

It looks doom and has some merit to it, cause people like Light and Flying were still vital part of their teams despite being on an edge of retirement. No it's more like without them it's the big loss to the team. Its not the "they are dead weight" it's rather, they are old and washed out or want to go but we need them.

Before 1 year passes it will be known if Korean scene is that bad in terms of new blood or not. In BW it was pretty visible when old guards retired and new guards took(TBLS JangBi, Fanta, and other top a-taemers started showing results within 1 year of each other, mostly). Current SC2 look is clouded because of Korean scene split and background noise which is foreign scene, which makes it harder to pinpoint the generation changes, than it was in monotheistic Kespa BW scene.

The other thing i wanted to mention is that, and in the purist's way is even more important than name changes, new people coming in and out. It is gameplay changes (or rather setting the bar higher) that happen when new blood enter the stream. The only magical "TBLS" of SC2 are probaly the three great early heroes, and im afraid the last one too are the MVP, MC and Nestea (with DRG spin off). They happened early, they punched heavily and the end.

It is pretty important to notice the difference between BW TBLS era which (imo) not coincidental with last and most skillful era of BW. And 3 kings of SC2 which not(imo) coincidental with start of SC2 Korean Scene. For me (call me negative nancy) not much changed when 150 old and new dogs entered the already established SC2 scene(Enter the Kespa). Im really reluctant to believe even the favored new youngins (i believe in progamer year theory, because it correlates nicely within BW and SC2 history) will change much. Yes military will come and take people, people will get bored, etc. And those people will be replaced with younger ones, but that's not the change we seek.

Further delving into the subject will be too much of a dead horse critisicm of SC2(look last MC woes), not a great topic to do that so but amazing analogy came to my mind.

Lets look at Nada, the most fruitful in terms of longevity character in BW. He started as Boxer rival, engaged into micro battles on 1 base, he transitioned into Iloveoov-Savior times and discovered the macro, on his last stand vs JangBi in MSL he copied the Flash build.


Interesting post and I think a lot of people share the same sentiment. To me as a pretty uninformed noob, SC2 just doesn't seem to have the same depth or complexity as BW. So many units are designed for a specific role or a purpose, leaving little room for creativity and innovation. I wouldn't be surprised if the HotS metagame remains stagnant until Blizz patches something or LotV comes around.
Cheren
Profile Blog Joined September 2013
United States2911 Posts
September 17 2013 22:13 GMT
#249
On September 18 2013 06:48 Phyanketto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 18 2013 06:37 SupLilSon wrote:
On September 18 2013 06:25 Grumbels wrote:
On September 18 2013 04:57 sjukungen1 wrote:
On September 18 2013 03:41 GeNi wrote:
People need to understand that players retire and that does not mean that the "scene is dead" or sc2 is "dying". When Michael Jordan retired, Basketball did not die. New, younger players rose and the scene is the same as when he played. Sc2 will see younger players rise and help the scene of sc2. The transition from having legends/old bw players retire is necessary if new legends are to be made.



Except they didn't change basketball to basketball 2 which made a lot of the current players lose interest in the game.

What if all baseball players were forced to switch to softball? (it's more accessible!)

More applicable, imagine if they removed the 3-point line and made the hoop 5ft instead of 10... What would happen to all the centers who make their living on being tall? Or the players who's value comes from their 3-point shot?

Nvm, your analogy is perfectly fine also :D

These are both really good analogies. Watching Flash and Jaedong play SC2 is like watching Lebron James and Michael Jordan play middle-school basketball. And all the people in the audience have no respect for how fucking good they are.


Watching Bomber vs Jaedong was like watching Michael Jordan switch from basketball to baseball and strike out to pitches he'd never seen before, except with a lot more people thinking he'd do well.
GTPGlitch
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
5061 Posts
September 17 2013 22:22 GMT
#250
On September 18 2013 06:48 Phyanketto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 18 2013 06:37 SupLilSon wrote:
On September 18 2013 06:25 Grumbels wrote:
On September 18 2013 04:57 sjukungen1 wrote:
On September 18 2013 03:41 GeNi wrote:
People need to understand that players retire and that does not mean that the "scene is dead" or sc2 is "dying". When Michael Jordan retired, Basketball did not die. New, younger players rose and the scene is the same as when he played. Sc2 will see younger players rise and help the scene of sc2. The transition from having legends/old bw players retire is necessary if new legends are to be made.



Except they didn't change basketball to basketball 2 which made a lot of the current players lose interest in the game.

What if all baseball players were forced to switch to softball? (it's more accessible!)

More applicable, imagine if they removed the 3-point line and made the hoop 5ft instead of 10... What would happen to all the centers who make their living on being tall? Or the players who's value comes from their 3-point shot?

Nvm, your analogy is perfectly fine also :D

These are both really good analogies. Watching Flash and Jaedong play SC2 is like watching Lebron James and Michael Jordan play middle-school basketball. And all the people in the audience have no respect for how fucking good they are.


Uh, no, because middle school basketball is the same as normal basketball... Basket->baseball is a much better comparison
Jo Byung Se #1 fan | CJ_Rush(reborn) fan | Liquid'Jinro(ret) fan | Liquid'Taeja fan | oGsTheSuperNada fan | Iris[gm](ret) fan |
SupLilSon
Profile Joined October 2011
Malaysia4123 Posts
September 17 2013 22:23 GMT
#251
On September 18 2013 07:22 GTPGlitch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 18 2013 06:48 Phyanketto wrote:
On September 18 2013 06:37 SupLilSon wrote:
On September 18 2013 06:25 Grumbels wrote:
On September 18 2013 04:57 sjukungen1 wrote:
On September 18 2013 03:41 GeNi wrote:
People need to understand that players retire and that does not mean that the "scene is dead" or sc2 is "dying". When Michael Jordan retired, Basketball did not die. New, younger players rose and the scene is the same as when he played. Sc2 will see younger players rise and help the scene of sc2. The transition from having legends/old bw players retire is necessary if new legends are to be made.



Except they didn't change basketball to basketball 2 which made a lot of the current players lose interest in the game.

What if all baseball players were forced to switch to softball? (it's more accessible!)

More applicable, imagine if they removed the 3-point line and made the hoop 5ft instead of 10... What would happen to all the centers who make their living on being tall? Or the players who's value comes from their 3-point shot?

Nvm, your analogy is perfectly fine also :D

These are both really good analogies. Watching Flash and Jaedong play SC2 is like watching Lebron James and Michael Jordan play middle-school basketball. And all the people in the audience have no respect for how fucking good they are.


Uh, no, because middle school basketball is the same as normal basketball... Basket->baseball is a much better comparison


Its more like going from Baseball to Teaball, similar game, just removes a lot of the skill which differentiates batters.
GTPGlitch
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
5061 Posts
September 17 2013 22:32 GMT
#252
On September 18 2013 07:23 SupLilSon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 18 2013 07:22 GTPGlitch wrote:
On September 18 2013 06:48 Phyanketto wrote:
On September 18 2013 06:37 SupLilSon wrote:
On September 18 2013 06:25 Grumbels wrote:
On September 18 2013 04:57 sjukungen1 wrote:
On September 18 2013 03:41 GeNi wrote:
People need to understand that players retire and that does not mean that the "scene is dead" or sc2 is "dying". When Michael Jordan retired, Basketball did not die. New, younger players rose and the scene is the same as when he played. Sc2 will see younger players rise and help the scene of sc2. The transition from having legends/old bw players retire is necessary if new legends are to be made.



Except they didn't change basketball to basketball 2 which made a lot of the current players lose interest in the game.

What if all baseball players were forced to switch to softball? (it's more accessible!)

More applicable, imagine if they removed the 3-point line and made the hoop 5ft instead of 10... What would happen to all the centers who make their living on being tall? Or the players who's value comes from their 3-point shot?

Nvm, your analogy is perfectly fine also :D

These are both really good analogies. Watching Flash and Jaedong play SC2 is like watching Lebron James and Michael Jordan play middle-school basketball. And all the people in the audience have no respect for how fucking good they are.


Uh, no, because middle school basketball is the same as normal basketball... Basket->baseball is a much better comparison


Its more like going from Baseball to Teaball, similar game, just removes a lot of the skill which differentiates batters.


...not really... Just the skills that you need to differentiate yourself are different, and there's a lot more emphasis on individual style. Just because flash is doing pretty bad and jaedong isn't the best ever of all time doesn't make it less skill...
Jo Byung Se #1 fan | CJ_Rush(reborn) fan | Liquid'Jinro(ret) fan | Liquid'Taeja fan | oGsTheSuperNada fan | Iris[gm](ret) fan |
DinoToss
Profile Joined August 2013
Poland507 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-17 22:35:24
September 17 2013 22:32 GMT
#253
On September 18 2013 07:11 SupLilSon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 18 2013 06:59 DinoToss wrote:
On September 18 2013 05:34 lolfail9001 wrote:
On September 18 2013 05:29 Frumpysnoo wrote:
Old players leave, new players come. It's the way things have always been, and it will continue to happen. It's nice to reminisce the times of players that were once great, but them leaving is not all loom and gloom. Best of luck to them both!

It is true, but since there are no announcements of new players (keep it fair, who knew about Sora before WCG streak :D?) it looks all doom more than anything.

It looks doom and has some merit to it, cause people like Light and Flying were still vital part of their teams despite being on an edge of retirement. No it's more like without them it's the big loss to the team. Its not the "they are dead weight" it's rather, they are old and washed out or want to go but we need them.

Before 1 year passes it will be known if Korean scene is that bad in terms of new blood or not. In BW it was pretty visible when old guards retired and new guards took(TBLS JangBi, Fanta, and other top a-taemers started showing results within 1 year of each other, mostly). Current SC2 look is clouded because of Korean scene split and background noise which is foreign scene, which makes it harder to pinpoint the generation changes, than it was in monotheistic Kespa BW scene.

The other thing i wanted to mention is that, and in the purist's way is even more important than name changes, new people coming in and out. It is gameplay changes (or rather setting the bar higher) that happen when new blood enter the stream. The only magical "TBLS" of SC2 are probaly the three great early heroes, and im afraid the last one too are the MVP, MC and Nestea (with DRG spin off). They happened early, they punched heavily and the end.

It is pretty important to notice the difference between BW TBLS era which (imo) not coincidental with last and most skillful era of BW. And 3 kings of SC2 which not(imo) coincidental with start of SC2 Korean Scene. For me (call me negative nancy) not much changed when 150 old and new dogs entered the already established SC2 scene(Enter the Kespa). Im really reluctant to believe even the favored new youngins (i believe in progamer year theory, because it correlates nicely within BW and SC2 history) will change much. Yes military will come and take people, people will get bored, etc. And those people will be replaced with younger ones, but that's not the change we seek.

Further delving into the subject will be too much of a dead horse critisicm of SC2(look last MC woes), not a great topic to do that so but amazing analogy came to my mind.

Lets look at Nada, the most fruitful in terms of longevity character in BW. He started as Boxer rival, engaged into micro battles on 1 base, he transitioned into Iloveoov-Savior times and discovered the macro, on his last stand vs JangBi in MSL he copied the Flash build.


Interesting post and I think a lot of people share the same sentiment. To me as a pretty uninformed noob, SC2 just doesn't seem to have the same depth or complexity as BW. So many units are designed for a specific role or a purpose, leaving little room for creativity and innovation. I wouldn't be surprised if the HotS metagame remains stagnant until Blizz patches something or LotV comes around.


If Blizzard cuts *something* from SC2, and adds something improved, that will change the flow of all MUs, maybe reset the economy system? Throw a goddamn wrench Blizzard, make people wonder what is the most optimal way of playing for themselves and not make them open Innovation replay and see "ah so this is TvZ".

We are already past the last stadium of BW growth in SC2, because everyone plays macro and everyone fight for last 5% efficiency on pro level, its no wonder there are almost no inventors and geniuses in SC2 anymore.
My wrist really started to flare up. My colossi number started to pile up and with the last of my concentration I prepared for a win.
LeapofFaith
Profile Joined November 2011
United States446 Posts
September 17 2013 22:48 GMT
#254
Woongjin Stars whyy ):
PerSe
Profile Joined June 2013
United Kingdom550 Posts
September 17 2013 23:13 GMT
#255
Whatever your opinions on SC2 might be, it isn't an easier game than BW, because the skill cap is still ridiculously high and nobody will reach it. That it happens to be easier to macro doesn't make the game ezpz, it just means the skill differentiation occurs in other areas of game play.

Having said that, there are some problems with the way SC2 seems to play out, that makes it less appealing to watch. The economy system, the way the units clump up, the posturing deathballs and then 5 sec battle that decides the game...
Shana
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Indonesia1814 Posts
September 17 2013 23:52 GMT
#256
This is gonna be good for sospa scene should they decided to play BW again.
Believing in what lies ahead. | That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet.
Jaaaaasper
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
United States10225 Posts
September 17 2013 23:56 GMT
#257
Well maybe this means they're going afreeca, so I'm fairly okay with this. I also hope to see some new faces in pl, but I'm not sure how many new people are going into pro sc2 in korea.
Hey do you want to hear a joke? Chinese production value. | I thought he had a aegis- Ayesee | When did 7ing mad last have a good game, 2012?
Xiphos
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada7507 Posts
September 18 2013 00:30 GMT
#258
On September 18 2013 08:13 PerSe wrote:
Whatever your opinions on SC2 might be, it isn't an easier game than BW, because the skill cap is still ridiculously high and nobody will reach it. That it happens to be easier to macro doesn't make the game ezpz, it just means the skill differentiation occurs in other areas of game play.

Having said that, there are some problems with the way SC2 seems to play out, that makes it less appealing to watch. The economy system, the way the units clump up, the posturing deathballs and then 5 sec battle that decides the game...


Yeah it is still a game that decides who have more skills in those aspects but I understand why people won't find it appealing as BW was a constant struggle to get a head and crawling back into the game with crazy plays which SC2 rarely have and BW constantly possesses.
2014 - ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ Raise your bows brood warriors! ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ
TemujinGK
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States483 Posts
September 18 2013 00:32 GMT
#259
I guess we're just going to have a serious changing of the guard. Proleague is either going to have one of the most interesting seasons yet, or one of the most boring.
"Pikachu and Protoss are both yellow, Coincidence?" ~apexMorroW
larse
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
1611 Posts
September 18 2013 00:36 GMT
#260
[image loading]

KeSPA team's retirement list since the last SPL (Green is retired and yellow is rumored to retire) (A few mistakes)
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