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Waxangel
United States33171 Posts
Woongjin Stars'  Light and  Flying have announced their retirement. Light stated that military service weighed into his decision, as well as other endeavors he hoped to pursue. Flying said he was not considering military service immediately, and planned to study English.
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Lunareste
United States3596 Posts
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CloudMage
Canada221 Posts
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Khai
Australia551 Posts
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Malinor
Germany4719 Posts
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corpsepose
1678 Posts
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Ensue
United States144 Posts
On September 17 2013 16:00 Khai wrote: T_T When will the bad news end? I hope this doesn't mean Woongjin is disbanding, the sc2 scene has been shrinking way too fast... By the time proleague starts, I would think all the bad news would be over... until then? | ||
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RoyaleBrainSlug
United States295 Posts
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
The downsizing of the Korean SC2 scene will continue, and it has to continue until we reach a sustainable level. | ||
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
FLYING YOU JACKASS how could you do this to me | ||
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Keeemy
Finland7855 Posts
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zSnowy
United Kingdom51 Posts
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ETisME
12321 Posts
with all these kespa pro retiring (and I am expecting a lot more soon to follow up due to age and military training etc), I wonder what will PL do soon. the KR scene barely has any upcoming player now | ||
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Tobblish
Sweden6404 Posts
Best of luck to Light and Flying. | ||
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Delphiki
Philippines1955 Posts
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Lunareste
United States3596 Posts
On September 17 2013 16:04 ETisME wrote: copied and pasted from the other thread: with all these kespa pro retiring (and I am expecting a lot more soon to follow up due to age and military training etc), I wonder what will PL do soon. the KR scene barely has any upcoming player now KR scene has plenty of upcoming players now. Those players aren't in KeSPA though, they're in the eSF. | ||
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Mahanaim
Korea (South)1002 Posts
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
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xuanzue
Colombia1747 Posts
now they are only streaming LoL. we need coach park makes a miracle and save starcraft | ||
GTR
51393 Posts
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WoodenSky
France66 Posts
MORE PLEASE, MORE | ||
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Patate
Canada441 Posts
On September 17 2013 16:06 xuanzue wrote: once upon a time, OGN transmitted starcraft. now they are only streaming LoL. we need coach park makes a miracle and save starcraft The only ones who could have saved it was Blizzard but they didn't listen. Oh well, more ex-pros for Afreeca BW !! :D | ||
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Thinasy
2856 Posts
The Army is getting invaded by former Starcraft pros | ||
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Pontius Pirate
United States1557 Posts
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Birdie
New Zealand4438 Posts
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29 fps
United States5723 Posts
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Kergy
Peru2011 Posts
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dcemuser
United States3248 Posts
On September 17 2013 16:09 Patate wrote: The only ones who could have saved it was Blizzard but they didn't listen. Oh well, more ex-pros for Afreeca BW !! :D I'm not convinced of that, honestly. If Blizzard did everything perfectly, would the current situation (which is actually still pretty good for an esport, mind you) be 100% avoided? I doubt it. I'm not saying Blizzard doesn't bear blame, but we knew literally years ago that there were too many Korean SC2 players. 16 teams was just an unsustainable number, especially with the rise of MOBAs. We will see it shrink back to 8 teams and probably see at least 5-10 more retirements until we finally get to a reasonable level of players in Korea again. | ||
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Torpedo.Vegas
United States1890 Posts
On September 17 2013 16:07 GTR wrote: Who would have thought that Free and Stork are still around after all of these retirements. What if they are banking on these retirements. Removing competition through.....alternative means.... "Good...Good.....give into your military obligations" - Free "All according to plan...soon I shall soar once more" -Stork | ||
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Laryleprakon
New Zealand9496 Posts
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digmouse
China6327 Posts
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NiHiLuSsc2
United States50 Posts
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bokchoi
Korea (South)9498 Posts
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
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Grovbolle
Denmark3804 Posts
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]343[
United States10328 Posts
and wow, wasn't flying still decently good? | ||
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Nomzter
Sweden2802 Posts
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Sprouter
United States1724 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9359 Posts
On September 17 2013 16:15 dcemuser wrote: I'm not convinced of that, honestly. If Blizzard did everything perfectly, would the current situation (which is actually still pretty good for an esport, mind you) be 100% avoided? I doubt it. I'm not saying Blizzard doesn't bear blame, but we knew literally years ago that there were too many Korean SC2 players. 16 teams was just an unsustainable number, especially with the rise of MOBAs. We will see it shrink back to 8 teams and probably see at least 5-10 more retirements until we finally get to a reasonable level of players in Korea again. 100% perfect from an esports perspective would be F2P. However, that likely wouldn't make sense from a monetary perspective (at leat it would be very risky - as Blizzard doesn't have enough experience with this type of business model). | ||
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writer22816
United States5775 Posts
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
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Brutaxilos
United States2622 Posts
I liked flying... | ||
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dr0pship
Canada520 Posts
flash next? | ||
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Taosu
Ukraine1074 Posts
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ETisME
12321 Posts
On September 17 2013 16:05 Lunareste wrote: KR scene has plenty of upcoming players now. Those players aren't in KeSPA though, they're in the eSF. any example? I had been missing out on Code A and GSTL, so maybe I am missing something? | ||
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NotSorry
United States6722 Posts
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BlackPanther
United States872 Posts
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Guileful
Kazakhstan137 Posts
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GreenMash
Norway1746 Posts
On September 17 2013 16:29 ETisME wrote: any example? I had been missing out on Code A and GSTL, so maybe I am missing something? To name a few : Avenge, Sora, Patiance and Super | ||
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51452 Posts
him and sOs together were good fun protoss' to watch! GL to them both | ||
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On September 17 2013 16:29 ETisME wrote: any example? I had been missing out on Code A and GSTL, so maybe I am missing something? Bunny, HammEr, Sora, SonGDuri, Pigbaby, hitmaN, SSanaEE, Trust and Solar are all new-ish (meaning no significant BW experience, if at all) Kespa players with potential | ||
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FlyingSheeP
China45 Posts
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
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nimdil
Poland3748 Posts
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BlackPanther
United States872 Posts
On September 17 2013 16:38 nimdil wrote: I wonder why all the players won't announce retirement at the same time. To continually shock and disappoint us over a long period of time. | ||
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Akaann
Switzerland82 Posts
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nighcol
298 Posts
On September 17 2013 16:41 BlackPanther wrote: To continually shock and disappoint us over a long period of time. I actually wonder if this is better or worse. Guess it partly depends on if you think the resulting continued publicity of this might have any positive effect. People are already shouting that the game is dead with this trickle, imagine what they would be saying if it was a mass retirement in one go. | ||
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myminerals
560 Posts
On September 17 2013 16:02 RoyaleBrainSlug wrote: The best terran who never won a tournament retired :C so long Light and GL in the military! Sea... | ||
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Gorilla23
United States339 Posts
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myminerals
560 Posts
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slowbacontron
United States7722 Posts
Light, I was waiting for the day you would score bank on my fantasy team.. Why must these guys retire T_T | ||
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myminerals
560 Posts
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TaShadan
Germany1965 Posts
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Glioburd
France1911 Posts
, happy he quits SC2, not happy for programing. Good luck to him ! | ||
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NeThZOR
South Africa7387 Posts
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GumBa
United Kingdom31935 Posts
Will miss you light! And flying was quite good Hope woongjin pick up some good players as replacements | ||
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sharkie
Austria18334 Posts
On September 17 2013 16:02 RoyaleBrainSlug wrote: The best terran who never won a tournament retired :C so long Light and GL in the military! Sea, Midas, Iris were all better :p | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
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BabyRomatic
259 Posts
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DinoToss
Poland507 Posts
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Hermanoid
Sweden213 Posts
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figq
12519 Posts
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Dakure
United States513 Posts
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shin_toss
Philippines2589 Posts
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jackslater
Russian Federation604 Posts
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Necosarius
Sweden4042 Posts
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saroir
Germany244 Posts
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DinoToss
Poland507 Posts
On September 17 2013 17:36 Necosarius wrote: Hope to see Light stream some BW, his TvZ was amazing! GL to both Light and Flying <3 Actually he was seen on fish playing BW 2-3 months ago. AFAIR | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
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FoShao
United States256 Posts
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robson1
3632 Posts
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KivTM
Australia90 Posts
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suddendeathTV
Sweden388 Posts
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Srontgorrth
United States204 Posts
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DinoToss
Poland507 Posts
On September 17 2013 17:57 Srontgorrth wrote: wow, what's going on with all these kespa pros jumping ship? really sad to see... Not enough girls screaming and hiding their faces ;( While every pro has his own reasons for retirement, we can say that everyone of them were hit by downsizing of Starcraft brand in Korea. Seeing God young ho of BW asking fans to show, because chairs are empty. | ||
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Glioburd
France1911 Posts
It depends of the period. | ||
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Skynx
Turkey7150 Posts
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Topdoller
United Kingdom3860 Posts
All we need now is for Flash and Jeadong to "retire" and move to SSL too | ||
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Nerchio
Poland2633 Posts
On September 17 2013 17:57 Srontgorrth wrote: wow, what's going on with all these kespa pros jumping ship? really sad to see... I will explain in to you, most of them already know what life besides Starcraft2 looks like. Let's take the big starts like Boxer/Nada, they had their time and they come to a new game which is far inferior to what they were playing. No point in staying. Starcraft2 will end up with a few foreigners and koreans that don't see life besides the game so they keep holding to it even if they don't enjoy playing. | ||
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Patate
Canada441 Posts
On September 17 2013 18:06 Nerchio wrote: I will explain in to you, most of them already know what life besides Starcraft2 looks like. Let's take the big starts like Boxer/Nada, they had their time and they come to a new game which is far inferior to what they were playing. No point in staying. Starcraft2 will end up with a few foreigners and koreans that don't see life besides the game so they keep holding to it even if they don't enjoy playing. Wow! I did not expect you to say this | ||
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Glioburd
France1911 Posts
On September 17 2013 18:06 Nerchio wrote: I will explain in to you, most of them already know what life besides Starcraft2 looks like. Let's take the big starts like Boxer/Nada, they had their time and they come to a new game which is far inferior to what they were playing. No point in staying. Starcraft2 will end up with a few foreigners and koreans that don't see life besides the game so they keep holding to it even if they don't enjoy playing. I'd not have said it better xd | ||
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
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braller
96 Posts
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DinoToss
Poland507 Posts
On September 17 2013 18:04 Topdoller wrote: Looks like the elephant is rapidly going extinct. Good news for Broodwar fans mind you if these two do the SSL thing its going to get stacked with quality. In fact at this rate SSL will be a higher quality tournament than SC2 Code S lol All we need now is for Flash and Jeadong to "retire" and move to SSL too I doubt that will happen soon, im pretty sure Jaedong won't, F & J were properly marketed before switch and their value is quite high even if they are slumpin(not winning everything as they supposed to). See Jaedong doing well both on market side and not bad on results side. However Flash is the tricky one, he always had his drive to be the best of the best, he proclaimed he is gonna be legend and win everything. So the obstacle for him may be the biggest one, there may be point where he will think to himself "Well it's not worth it ill just sit on my prize winning and go studying/army". | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On September 17 2013 18:06 Nerchio wrote: I will explain in to you, most of them already know what life besides Starcraft2 looks like. Let's take the big starts like Boxer/Nada, they had their time and they come to a new game which is far inferior to what they were playing. No point in staying. Starcraft2 will end up with a few foreigners and koreans that don't see life besides the game so they keep holding to it even if they don't enjoy playing. I'm pretty sure there'll be people who enjoy playing the game. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
Yes some pros are going to stream BW for a while and will probably play until their military service, but do people honestly think these people will play BW full time again? I know this forum is based entirely around eSports and the progaming scene, but being a BW progamer was not exactly a brilliant life, I mean look at Flash. He did pretty much nothing but practice 12-15 hours a day and he missed out on so many things. The only thing that went well for Flash is he made so much bank with that practice that it outweighed the issue. There's just not enough money for those sorts of people to want to go back to BW and if anything they'll either try to get into LoL or just move on with a relatively normal life. It's a shame Flying and Light are retiring, but people don't seem to realise that being a progamer is still not a long time career path for a lot of people and many who have been doing it for years already now, especially after the transition to a new game might not either be making enough money to want to continue, or get bored with whatever game it is they're playing. | ||
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pellejohnson
United States1931 Posts
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On September 17 2013 16:28 9heart wrote: more fodder for killer in SSL flash next? Light, fodder for killer? Jokes! I fear if light comes to SSL killer never wins again...unless light happens to meet a protoss first. | ||
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DinoToss
Poland507 Posts
On September 17 2013 18:17 DarkLordOlli wrote: I'm pretty sure there'll be people who enjoy playing the game. Who says there won't be? Its just the previous generation had their own dreams and new generation has their own dreams. Generally there is a disconnect between them. Its natural. One party is being honest and other party is also being honest. | ||
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Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
Zergs cry everywhere. | ||
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liberate71
Australia10252 Posts
On September 17 2013 17:44 FoShao wrote: It just so happens that now is the time where old BW pros are getting to that age where military service is daunting. still sad to see them go though Exactly, everyone is quick to blame it on SC2 not being BW though. Flash will retire and go to military service and people will lose their shit. | ||
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Lorch
Germany3671 Posts
Really sad about light though, such a talanted terran T.T @ETisME: There are more pro gamers right now than there have ever been for bw in korea. And trust me there are still plenty of kids capable of winning code s that you have never heard off. | ||
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saddaromma
1129 Posts
On September 17 2013 18:30 liberate71 wrote: Exactly, everyone is quick to blame it on SC2 not being BW though. Flash will retire and go to military service and people will lose their shit. I don't see any new players up and coming. | ||
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liberate71
Australia10252 Posts
On September 17 2013 18:33 saddaromma wrote: I don't see any new players up and coming. Be honest, have you been looking?  There are plenty... most of the time people are all like "whos this random korean" eg: Ruin - he owned it up in the pre-season of GSTL last season, but then didnt manage to get into Code S or anything... I'm sure he will develop, hes surrounded by beast Protoss players. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On September 17 2013 18:33 saddaromma wrote: I don't see any new players up and coming. Ruin, Ssanaee, Sora, Madbull are all players that have shown good amounts of talent. I just doubt that you're looking very hard. Because they're not the only ones. There's plenty of talent on Kespa B teams that you've never heard of and there's plenty of young players living with esf teams but not really playing regularly in GSTL + individual leagues are hard as hell to get into. | ||
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DinoToss
Poland507 Posts
On September 17 2013 18:32 Lorch wrote: Why so sad about flying? He was really awesome in bw but in star 2 his builds were some of the wierdest shit I have ever seen. Really sad about light though, such a talanted terran T.T @ETisME: There are more pro gamers right now than there have ever been for bw in korea. And trust me there are still plenty of kids capable of winning code s that you have never heard off. If you didnt need to win a courage or get special invite there would be tons of progamer in BW. Becoming a progamer was journey itself, Jaedong for example got after 6th or 7th courage (don't remember). BW progaming scene was simply different than current Esports scenes or previous ones. BW scene consisted of only big sponsors, clans, and semi pro houses were not included. BW proscene was mostly driven by quality over quantity as the main goal was to present a systematic televised league, you could probably double the size of teams and players in peak of BW but the quality would drop and you wouldn't be able to showcase it properly on TV. | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
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KaiserKieran
United States615 Posts
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XsebT
Denmark2980 Posts
On September 17 2013 18:30 liberate71 wrote: Exactly, everyone is quick to blame it on SC2 not being BW though. Flash will retire and go to military service and people will lose their shit. This is of course just speculation, but I really doubt these retirements had happened already if kespa and OGN hadn't moved over to sc2. On the other hand, bw was already on a slow decline in S Korea pre sc2 (which is only natural) - at least as I see it. Maybe, just maybe, this is a chance to...reboot the system. The only thing that really needs to happen, is to get bw on television again - thus attract sponsorships. These players going back to bw and streaming it (plus earning money from it) is a clear reflection of two things. 1. The players passion is BW (This is not to say anything bad about sc2, but it is just not what they grew up with and became good at. As with any sport, for you to master it, the urge to become the best, there must be a specific passion towards exactly what you're doing to keep going. It's just not given, that they should experience this twice in their life - after all, sc2 is vastly different from bw). 2. There is still a drive from the public for them to keep playing (shown through donations). | ||
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arb
Noobville17920 Posts
best of luck if they don't though. | ||
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sushiman
Sweden2691 Posts
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Doraemon
Australia14949 Posts
more sad newss | ||
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
Military, College, SoSPA? | ||
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bouboule
American Samoa62 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
On September 17 2013 18:49 XsebT wrote: This is of course just speculation, but I really doubt these retirements had happened already if kespa and OGN hadn't moved over to sc2. On the other hand, bw was already on a slow decline in S Korea pre sc2 (which is only natural) - at least as I see it. Maybe, just maybe, this is a chance to...reboot the system. The only thing that really needs to happen, is to get bw on television again - thus attract sponsorships. These players going back to bw and streaming it (plus earning money from it) is a clear reflection of two things. 1. The players passion is BW (This is not to say anything bad about sc2, but it is just not what they grew up with and became good at. As with any sport, for you to master it, the urge to become the best, there must be a specific passion towards exactly what you're doing to keep going. It's just not given, that they should experience this twice in their life - after all, sc2 is vastly different from bw). 2. There is still a drive from the public for them to keep playing (shown through donations). Once they switched there was no going back. | ||
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Elroi
Sweden5588 Posts
god damn that's so sad. he was one of the great BW players: such a reliable PL player for MBC all those years. I remember the days when Flash and Light stomped every zerg alive.... Flying... I will miss him too. Crazy style of play. I hope they will stream BW. On September 17 2013 18:32 Lorch wrote: Why so sad about flying? He was really awesome in bw but in star 2 his builds were some of the wierdest shit I have ever seen. Really sad about light though, such a talanted terran T.T @ETisME: There are more pro gamers right now than there have ever been for bw in korea. And trust me there are still plenty of kids capable of winning code s that you have never heard off. No way. These rosters were stacked in BW... and all the teams had b-teams that played in another league. | ||
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XsebT
Denmark2980 Posts
On September 17 2013 19:05 thezanursic wrote: Once they switched there was no going back. We'll just have to see about that. No way of telling quite yet. But one thing is for sure: Brood War is not just like any other game. Different laws of ESPORT nature applies to Brood War. ^^ | ||
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
On September 17 2013 18:32 Lorch wrote: Why so sad about flying? He was really awesome in bw but in star 2 his builds were some of the wierdest shit I have ever seen. Really sad about light though, such a talanted terran T.T @ETisME: There are more pro gamers right now than there have ever been for bw in korea. And trust me there are still plenty of kids capable of winning code s that you have never heard off. You have no idea what you are talking about... | ||
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bluQ
Germany1724 Posts
On September 17 2013 19:14 XsebT wrote: We'll just have to see about that. No way of telling quite yet. But one thing is for sure: Brood War is not just like any other game. Different laws of ESPORT nature applies to Brood War. ^^ And would BW have stand a chance against the LoL hype? SC2 kinda couldn't but could an old game like BW do it? I doubt it, even though it was a great game. | ||
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
On September 17 2013 19:10 Elroi wrote: No way. These rosters were stacked in BW... and all the teams had b-teams that played in another league. + a billion skilled amateurs and semi-pros. | ||
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noneforall
125 Posts
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SystemXN
China105 Posts
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[Silverflame]
Germany640 Posts
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herMan
Japan2053 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4803 Posts
On September 17 2013 16:51 myminerals wrote: good bye Light, the second terran after Flash who could play with Jaedong on par. Yes, Light had sick TvZ, but you seem to be forgetting about ForGG (and FBH). | ||
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reminisce12
Australia318 Posts
On September 17 2013 19:20 bluQ wrote: And would BW have stand a chance against the LoL hype? SC2 kinda couldn't but could an old game like BW do it? I doubt it, even though it was a great game. | ||
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reminisce12
Australia318 Posts
why wouldnt it? esports will always need a rts, a 1v1 game different from moba games which are team based. | ||
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reminisce12
Australia318 Posts
On September 17 2013 20:33 herMan wrote: Fucking sc2 is dying posts make me cringe. It is inevitable for a lot of the kespa guys to retire since they tend to be pretty old bw veterans. What did you expect, Flash playing sc2 when he's 30 years old? People grow up. except these pplz are not 30, especially someone as young as flying. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8614 Posts
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PerSe
United Kingdom550 Posts
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Dingodile
4133 Posts
I cant think they just realize this/last week "ok no sc2 anymore". | ||
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Sinedd
Poland7052 Posts
good choice ! | ||
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VIPlol
United States43 Posts
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nighcol
298 Posts
On September 17 2013 20:55 reminisce12 wrote: except these pplz are not 30, especially someone as young as flying. Well, in State of Play even Jaedong seemed to be getting comments from his family about already being old for progaming or something and his age was also highlighted at that event for Kespa players in the film. I think there may be some age related pressure based on that. I guess the elephants weren't as dominant as expected in the SC2 scene and now they're downsizing en masse. We're left guessing at the reasons for these players' retirements but my take would be that it's a little bit of everything: age, less interest in the game, perceived difficulty of making it in SC2, forced choice between retiring or starting to look for a non-Kespa team, Starcraft in general no longer being in the limelight in Korea.... | ||
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{ToT}ColmA
Japan3260 Posts
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
On September 17 2013 21:09 Dingodile wrote: I am wondering if they wanted quit earlier but didnt do because of (respect to) proleague was running or the player aren't/weren't allowed to quit (contract) during the proleague. I cant think they just realize this/last week "ok no sc2 anymore". kespa contracts running out and I guess alot of people get a slimmer paycheck. But yes switching to another thing even if it is the same genre has a mass quitting effect always. And while BW and Sc2 are pretty close overall in design, some parts weight differently. Would have happened even if Sc2 would be the biggest thing in esport. To bad though really liked light. I am curious how BW and Sc2 would look right now if kespa wouldn't have tried to sabotage the Sc2 release. Instead of late switching to a game they did permanent damage to trying to take it over and wonder why they fail and why the game is low on interest for them. But maybe it was their plan all along, kill Sc2 and make Blizzard take revenge on BW. Play the victim and go into the final form taking over everything and then switch to LoL. Kefka would be proud. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On September 17 2013 21:27 nighcol wrote: Well, in State of Play even Jaedong seemed to be getting comments from his family about already being old for progaming or something and his age was also highlighted at that event for Kespa players in the film. I think there may be some age related pressure based on that. I guess the elephants weren't as dominant as expected in the SC2 scene and now they're downsizing en masse. We're left guessing at the reasons for these players' retirements but my take would be that it's a little bit of everything: age, less interest in the game, perceived difficulty of making it in SC2, forced choice between retiring or starting to look for a non-Kespa team, Starcraft in general no longer being in the limelight in Korea.... yeah, there was even a scene where he asks himself if that progaming career wasnt just waste of time. (cause his friends go to school, have free time and girlfriends , etc). It isnt all about the actual gameplay of sc2, i bet most of the time the situation of being a progamer at a certain age in addition to the decline in the starcraft scene (which comes with salary cuts) is reason enough to retire and enjoy some freetime before u go to military. srsly it isnt always about the gamer not enjoying the game..^^ | ||
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
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FlukyS
Ireland485 Posts
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Darkhorse
United States23455 Posts
On September 17 2013 16:02 RoyaleBrainSlug wrote: The best terran who never won a tournament retired :C so long Light and GL in the military! But but... Supernova! | ||
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MrMotionPicture
United States4327 Posts
Good luck in the future. | ||
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lessQQmorePEWPEW
Jamaica921 Posts
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forumtext
575 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On September 17 2013 16:00 Khai wrote: T_T When will the bad news end? I hope this doesn't mean Woongjin is disbanding, the sc2 scene has been shrinking way too fast... We all knew it was coming though with the shrinkage. Only so many roster slots now guys. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
On September 17 2013 22:02 StarStruck wrote: We all knew it was coming though with the shrinkage. Only so many roster slots now guys. But Light and Flying were A-teamers. | ||
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amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
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renaissanceMAN
United States1840 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
A-teamers that are older(compared to kids like MKP and Leenock) and looking at military service at some point during their lives. I am sure that getting that shit out of the way is always in the back of their minds and they have an exact dollar value that makes it worth it for them to say on a team. This was always going to happen when ESF players and Kespa players all started fighting over the same SC2 dollars. | ||
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Caladan
Germany1238 Posts
They were pretty decent in SCBW, but never made it through in SC2. Also the Korean teams aim to reduce their team size. So all in all, it's no surprise. Farewell, Light! Liked your SCBW games. | ||
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c0ldfusion
United States8293 Posts
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Sovano
United States1503 Posts
On September 17 2013 22:21 c0ldfusion wrote: lol Flying. eSports is the best place to study English... That's why so many Koreans progamers can speak English right? /sarcasm (though a few can) He's probably looking to major in English for his studies then I suppose which isn't a bad choice. | ||
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Qualitytime
Sweden5 Posts
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OopsOopsBaby
Singapore3425 Posts
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purakushi
United States3300 Posts
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shid0x
Korea (South)5014 Posts
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Crais
Canada2136 Posts
When will it end.... | ||
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Krogan
Sweden375 Posts
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MythZero
Korea (South)102 Posts
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
I remember Flying mostly for the Jaedong game. Not that Flying did anything special, but who can ever forget THAT game? Mainly this: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.minus.com/iBg5UCJqVxyzx.gif) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0ybXS.jpg) | ||
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Zerg.Zilla
Hungary5029 Posts
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SHOOG
United States1639 Posts
I enjoyed watching them both play and hope they happy future in whatever they decide to do. | ||
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
Guys, people retire all the time in "sports." You can't play forever. It's no big deal. | ||
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CrayonPopChoa
Canada761 Posts
On September 17 2013 22:54 danl9rm wrote: Didn't Light say, once upon a time, in an interview that he wasn't interested in playing sc2 the slightest bit and would retire after BW ended? Guys, people retire all the time in "sports." You can't play forever. It's no big deal. Except that so far the majority of the old BW guys that retired from SC2 went back to BW and are competing in amateur leagues and streaming online. They are not retiring from gaming, they are fed up with SC2 and going back to BW. Some have flat out said they dont enjoy sc2 like Jangbi, Sea.. some you can speculate its cause they arent as successful as they were in BW but at the end of the day they are leaving one game that has the money, all the funding, big sponsors, blizzard backing and giving all that up for BW. | ||
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Holdenintherye
Canada1441 Posts
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
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NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
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Clbull
United Kingdom1439 Posts
On September 17 2013 20:55 reminisce12 wrote: except these pplz are not 30, especially someone as young as flying. My suggestion to herMan. Don't go on /r/starcraftcirclejerk. You'll have an aneurysm. | ||
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riyanme
Philippines940 Posts
bye bye... hoping to see proleague with fresh faces... | ||
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asdfOu
United States2089 Posts
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Ettick
United States2434 Posts
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40186 Posts
On September 17 2013 23:20 Ettick wrote: What is up with all these retirements? Contracts ending, KeSPA making space for LoL stuff and whatnot. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 17 2013 23:20 Ettick wrote: What is up with all these retirements? Large number of BW players making the switch to a new game and some of them deciding they want to go into military service, rather than continue with SC2. Think of it as a major sports team moving to a new city and a group of players transferring to other teams or retiring. Except that they need to go to the military by law, so they just retire. Also, that League of Legends thing taking the spotlight. | ||
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Otolia
France5805 Posts
I'm a bit sad to see them quitting but WJS has so much upcoming players who also need to have the spotlight. BrAvO had an excellent run in the first half of the PL and others will too. | ||
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Elroi
Sweden5588 Posts
On September 17 2013 23:24 Plansix wrote: Large number of BW players making the switch to a new game and some of them deciding they want to go into military service, rather than continue with SC2. Think of it as a major sports team moving to a new city and a group of players transferring to other teams or retiring. Except that they need to go to the military by law, so they just retire. Also, that League of Legends thing taking the spotlight. and the following of the new SC is like 1/10 of that of the old one. | ||
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nighcol
298 Posts
On September 17 2013 23:04 ChoiSulli wrote: Except that so far the majority of the old BW guys that retired from SC2 went back to BW and are competing in amateur leagues and streaming online. They are not retiring from gaming, they are fed up with SC2 and going back to BW. Some have flat out said they dont enjoy sc2 like Jangbi, Sea.. some you can speculate its cause they arent as successful as they were in BW but at the end of the day they are leaving one game that has the money, all the funding, big sponsors, blizzard backing and giving all that up for BW. It's different from doing it professionally though. I'd be pretty shocked if any pro retiring from any game would ever completely give up gaming. Not enjoying it anymore because of SC2 or because of waning popularity, smaller compensation, hard competition in a game with which you had to start from the beginning again, reaching a certain age... all valid reasons to stop competing professionally. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 17 2013 23:31 Elroi wrote: and the following of the new SC is like 1/10 of what it used to be. In Korea for sure, but it didn't have a huge amount of competition before. League was always going to hit hard in that region, BW, SC2 or otherwise. The SC2 scene the other regions seems to be holding steady and keeping up. As long as the NA and EU teams don't also start closing their doors, I'll start worrying. | ||
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Shellshock
United States97276 Posts
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zyce
United States649 Posts
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1ntrigue
Australia948 Posts
On September 17 2013 16:02 RoyaleBrainSlug wrote: The best terran who never won a tournament retired :C so long Light and GL in the military! Did Sea ever win a tournament? Not including SOSPA era, I mean. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
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sharkie
Austria18334 Posts
On September 18 2013 00:06 Markwerf wrote: Not really worried about all these retirements lately, most of them were basically just BW players that tried sc2 shortly and pretty much just retired as BW ended. Only Jangbi was sort of an upset considering I thought he could do really well in sc2. Not strange though some of these slightly older gamers don't like sc2, sequels are always hated by diehard fans of the original because they simply differ from the original and the diehard fans obviously like practically everything from the original. Yet near carbon copies of an original never sell.. Flying was doing better than Jangbi in Code S... | ||
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MiQ
Canada312 Posts
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mjuuy
Norway506 Posts
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city42
1656 Posts
On September 17 2013 16:02 RoyaleBrainSlug wrote: The best terran who never won a tournament retired :C so long Light and GL in the military! Midas has been retired for a while now. | ||
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Marjosz
39 Posts
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9172 Posts
Pretty sure Sea holds that title anyway. | ||
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Dontkillme
Korea (South)806 Posts
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ZeromuS
Canada13386 Posts
On September 17 2013 23:40 Shellshock wrote: I guess I'm more surprised to see Flying retire than Light. Light had pretty much disappeared at the end of ProLeague. Sad to see them both go but not too unexpected with the downsizing of a lot of teams in Korea. Yeah, can't be too sad about the reality of money. Oh well, best of luck to these guys in the future! :D | ||
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nighcol
298 Posts
On September 18 2013 00:08 sharkie wrote: Flying was doing better than Jangbi in Code S... Not really doing better currently. He did get ro16 during S1 but had fallen down to challenger league. JangBi's retirement was more shocking since he was on the rise and forfeited his spot in Premier for this season when retiring. | ||
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Advocado
Denmark994 Posts
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leakey
United States21 Posts
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shaftofpleasure
Korea (North)1375 Posts
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TelecoM
United States10664 Posts
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Kal_rA
United States2925 Posts
LOL Queens for days :D + Show Spoiler + come back to bw jaedong! | ||
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shaftofpleasure
Korea (North)1375 Posts
On September 18 2013 01:06 Kal_rA wrote: Fav game of light: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7oIgkT9qfo LOL Queens for days :D + Show Spoiler + come back to bw jaedong! this would be mine :D | ||
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Fuell
Netherlands3111 Posts
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IAmBelieve
Canada70 Posts
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WonnaPlay
Netherlands912 Posts
so sad right now.. Normally I don't even comment on topics like this :'( | ||
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vndestiny
Singapore3438 Posts
On September 18 2013 00:20 Scarecrow wrote: Pretty sure Sea holds that title anyway. ahem... Iris .... | ||
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
Best Terrans to never win a SL, I'd say: 1. Sea 2. Midas 3. Light 4. Iris Light's really only known for his TvZ, but my god that TvZ... Unspoiler for awesomeness: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Atf34Tz.png) The only blip was a 9 game (!!) TvZ span where he only played JD and still went an impressive 4-5 against the Tyrant. | ||
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
It's painfull watching our childhood go like that but... we will have other to cheer for, and those to remember. | ||
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mango_destroyer
Canada3914 Posts
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Canucklehead
Canada5074 Posts
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tomastaz
United States976 Posts
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Boundz(DarKo)
5311 Posts
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a9arnn
United States1537 Posts
They've had some great games in the past, sucks that they're gonna leave | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On September 18 2013 02:45 a9arnn wrote: T_T NOOOoo. I'm hoping the Stars can bounce back from this, especially ZerO! Losing Flying and Light is really big. They've had some great games in the past, sucks that they're gonna leave ZerO is rumored to be leaving as well because of his depression from losing that OSL vs JangBi. I hear that he was crying to sleep for days afterward. | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40186 Posts
On September 18 2013 02:32 Canucklehead wrote: Someone put an endangered species sign up because elephants are being hunted to extinction! They are hunting themselves down to be fair... | ||
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Shinta)
United States1716 Posts
On September 17 2013 16:00 Khai wrote: T_T When will the bad news end? I hope this doesn't mean Woongjin is disbanding, the sc2 scene has been shrinking way too fast... It's not necessarily bad news. SC2 has too many pro gamers right now so it's a good thing that it's downsizing for the moment. We can only hope that the field gets bigger in a smarter way to allow for an up scaling of players later on. Korea is getting closer to being at an optimal level, they just need to focus more on the professional scene whereas it seems they are going away from professionalism a little bit to make way for a more leinient and, imo, less efficient style of management. Korea is going to be in a weird stage for a while though. Gonna take over a year before they are comfortable with their set up I presume. In any case though, SC2 is going to remain healthy for quite some time, so no need to worry ^_^ It is sad to see the individuals who leave though. Especially Flying whom I wanted to succeed at SC2. Wish them the best! | ||
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L1ghtning
Sweden353 Posts
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40186 Posts
On September 18 2013 02:55 L1ghtning wrote: I hope Light plays in Sospa. His TvZ was so inspiring. Flash and Light were the main reasons why I settled with terran. When seeing Light play TvZ you never knew what to expect but it always ended up the same, with him making the zerg look like a noob. His TvT was also top class at times, but he seemed to struggle more than average with TvP, most likely because you can't boss your opponent around in TvP. It's been said somewhere he refused invite to Sospa. | ||
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Kal_rA
United States2925 Posts
On September 18 2013 02:12 Crisium wrote: Light is the best TvZ player to never win a SL, certainly. But his TvP was always considered sub par, and his TvT was only good; rarely great. Best Terrans to never win a SL, I'd say: 1. Sea 2. Midas 3. Light 4. Iris Light's really only known for his TvZ, but my god that TvZ... Unspoiler for awesomeness: + Show Spoiler + The only blip was a 9 game (!!) TvZ span where he only played JD and still went an impressive 4-5 against the Tyrant. Dude for my post a little higher up where I added a vid for the JD game I went through his TvZ TLPD and was blown away by his TvZ win rate... He was on literally on fire. Respect. + Show Spoiler + Still, JD > Light. teehee | ||
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Kal_rA
United States2925 Posts
On September 18 2013 01:08 shaftofpleasure wrote: this would be mine :D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzPiDOh9430 Hahhahah I remember the watching that the next day and being like omgwtffffffffzz | ||
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
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vult
United States9400 Posts
Miss you dood. | ||
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Frex
Finland888 Posts
On September 18 2013 01:08 shaftofpleasure wrote: this would be mine :D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzPiDOh9430 I never played BW multiplayer but that game just makes me want to live the BW times. No wonder the pros quit when you see the games they used to play. Stuff like that doesn´t exist in SC2 :< | ||
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Elroi
Sweden5588 Posts
On September 18 2013 02:32 Canucklehead wrote: Someone put an endangered species sign up because elephants are being hunted to extinction! yeah we have a gstl with what? 4 teams? including soul and Azubu who will break up any day.its sc2, not kespa. | ||
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DMXD
United States4064 Posts
On September 18 2013 02:12 Crisium wrote: Light is the best TvZ player to never win a SL, certainly. But his TvP was always considered sub par, and his TvT was only good; rarely great. Best Terrans to never win a SL, I'd say: 1. Sea 2. Midas 3. Light 4. Iris Light's really only known for his TvZ, but my god that TvZ... Unspoiler for awesomeness: + Show Spoiler + The only blip was a 9 game (!!) TvZ span where he only played JD and still went an impressive 4-5 against the Tyrant. Light was awesome, one of the few terrans that go full bio against zerg when every other terrans will do the bio to mech switch. | ||
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GeNi
United States49 Posts
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Badfatpanda
United States9719 Posts
But Flying D:::: There were moments when he clearly grasped the game and was up there with the best Toss after release but recently he has been kinda meh in PL. It's a shame because his playstyle was original, I never really followed him in BW but best of luck to both! | ||
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DinoToss
Poland507 Posts
On September 18 2013 01:08 shaftofpleasure wrote: this would be mine :D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzPiDOh9430 Jaedong infests 2nd command center Light: poker face Tempest's goon takes 30+ marines Light: poker face Good ol' light. | ||
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Advantageous
China1350 Posts
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Mortal
2943 Posts
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Hall0wed
United States8486 Posts
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AnachronisticAnarchy
United States2957 Posts
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sjukungen1
Burkina Faso59 Posts
On September 18 2013 03:41 GeNi wrote: People need to understand that players retire and that does not mean that the "scene is dead" or sc2 is "dying". When Michael Jordan retired, Basketball did not die. New, younger players rose and the scene is the same as when he played. Sc2 will see younger players rise and help the scene of sc2. The transition from having legends/old bw players retire is necessary if new legends are to be made. Except they didn't change basketball to basketball 2 which made a lot of the current players lose interest in the game. | ||
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Josh_Video
Canada798 Posts
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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
ITS SO SAD i loved light and i SUPER LOVED flying | ||
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IMR
70 Posts
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GWdeathscythe
Brazil1091 Posts
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Intricate
Canada127 Posts
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Frumpysnoo
United States247 Posts
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40186 Posts
On September 18 2013 05:29 Frumpysnoo wrote: Old players leave, new players come. It's the way things have always been, and it will continue to happen. It's nice to reminisce the times of players that were once great, but them leaving is not all loom and gloom. Best of luck to them both! It is true, but since there are no announcements of new players (keep it fair, who knew about Sora before WCG streak :D?) it looks all doom more than anything. | ||
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Taipoka
Brazil1224 Posts
On September 18 2013 04:57 sjukungen1 wrote: Except they didn't change basketball to basketball 2 which made a lot of the current players lose interest in the game. Haha nice shot. 3 points for you. :D | ||
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Strela
Netherlands1896 Posts
On September 17 2013 16:00 Khai wrote: T_T When will the bad news end? I hope this doesn't mean Woongjin is disbanding, the sc2 scene has been shrinking way too fast... Never until the game dies out. People retire all the time its not just in sc2  | ||
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nighcol
298 Posts
On September 18 2013 03:28 Elroi wrote: yeah we have a gstl with what? 4 teams? including soul and Azubu who will break up any day.its sc2, not kespa. GSTL was hit with the IM, MVP & Prime apparently trying to join the big boys in Kespa more than anything else. I don't think teams switching leagues is really a sign of SC2 dying. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
On September 18 2013 04:57 sjukungen1 wrote: Except they didn't change basketball to basketball 2 which made a lot of the current players lose interest in the game. What if all baseball players were forced to switch to softball? (it's more accessible!) | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On September 18 2013 06:25 Grumbels wrote: What if all baseball players were forced to switch to softball? (it's more accessible!) More applicable, imagine if they removed the 3-point line and made the hoop 5ft instead of 10... What would happen to all the centers who make their living on being tall? Or the players who's value comes from their 3-point shot? Nvm, your analogy is perfectly fine also :D | ||
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Phyanketto
United States505 Posts
On September 18 2013 06:37 SupLilSon wrote: More applicable, imagine if they removed the 3-point line and made the hoop 5ft instead of 10... What would happen to all the centers who make their living on being tall? Or the players who's value comes from their 3-point shot? Nvm, your analogy is perfectly fine also :D These are both really good analogies. Watching Flash and Jaedong play SC2 is like watching Lebron James and Michael Jordan play middle-school basketball. And all the people in the audience have no respect for how fucking good they are. | ||
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DinoToss
Poland507 Posts
On September 18 2013 05:34 lolfail9001 wrote: It is true, but since there are no announcements of new players (keep it fair, who knew about Sora before WCG streak :D?) it looks all doom more than anything. It looks doom and has some merit to it, cause people like Light and Flying were still vital part of their teams despite being on an edge of retirement. No it's more like without them it's the big loss to the team. Its not the "they are dead weight" it's rather, they are old and washed out or want to go but we need them. Before 1 year passes it will be known if Korean scene is that bad in terms of new blood or not. In BW it was pretty visible when old guards retired and new guards took(TBLS JangBi, Fanta, and other top a-taemers started showing results within 1 year of each other, mostly). Current SC2 look is clouded because of Korean scene split and background noise which is foreign scene, which makes it harder to pinpoint the generation changes, than it was in monotheistic Kespa BW scene. The other thing i wanted to mention is that, and in the purist's way is even more important than name changes, new people coming in and out. It is gameplay changes (or rather setting the bar higher) that happen when new blood enter the stream. The only magical "TBLS" of SC2 are probaly the three great early heroes, and im afraid the last one too are the MVP, MC and Nestea (with DRG spin off). They happened early, they punched heavily and the end. It is pretty important to notice the difference between BW TBLS era which (imo) not coincidental with last and most skillful era of BW. And 3 kings of SC2 which not(imo) coincidental with the start of SC2 Korean Scene. For me (call me negative nancy) not much changed when 150 old and new dogs entered the already established SC2 scene(Enter the Kespa). Im really reluctant to believe even the favored new youngins (i believe in progamer year theory, because it correlates nicely within BW and SC2 history) will change much. Yes military will come and take people, people will get bored, etc. And those people will be replaced with younger ones, but that's not the change we seek. Further delving into the subject will be too much of a dead horse critisicm of SC2(look last MC woes), not a great topic to do that so but amazing analogy came to my mind. Lets look at Nada, the most fruitful in terms of longevity character in BW. He started as Boxer rival, engaged into micro battles on 1 base, he transitioned into Iloveoov-Savior times and discovered the macro, on his last stand vs JangBi in MSL he copied the Flash build. Im just saying this after seeing that Blizzard will take AH out of D3, blizzard can still make a soft reset, and this game I M H O needs one, just like D3 economy. I wouldn't call WoL->HotS much of a reset, honestly. | ||
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DeathDyingDoomKiller
Canada91 Posts
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On September 18 2013 06:59 DinoToss wrote: It looks doom and has some merit to it, cause people like Light and Flying were still vital part of their teams despite being on an edge of retirement. No it's more like without them it's the big loss to the team. Its not the "they are dead weight" it's rather, they are old and washed out or want to go but we need them. Before 1 year passes it will be known if Korean scene is that bad in terms of new blood or not. In BW it was pretty visible when old guards retired and new guards took(TBLS JangBi, Fanta, and other top a-taemers started showing results within 1 year of each other, mostly). Current SC2 look is clouded because of Korean scene split and background noise which is foreign scene, which makes it harder to pinpoint the generation changes, than it was in monotheistic Kespa BW scene. The other thing i wanted to mention is that, and in the purist's way is even more important than name changes, new people coming in and out. It is gameplay changes (or rather setting the bar higher) that happen when new blood enter the stream. The only magical "TBLS" of SC2 are probaly the three great early heroes, and im afraid the last one too are the MVP, MC and Nestea (with DRG spin off). They happened early, they punched heavily and the end. It is pretty important to notice the difference between BW TBLS era which (imo) not coincidental with last and most skillful era of BW. And 3 kings of SC2 which not(imo) coincidental with start of SC2 Korean Scene. For me (call me negative nancy) not much changed when 150 old and new dogs entered the already established SC2 scene(Enter the Kespa). Im really reluctant to believe even the favored new youngins (i believe in progamer year theory, because it correlates nicely within BW and SC2 history) will change much. Yes military will come and take people, people will get bored, etc. And those people will be replaced with younger ones, but that's not the change we seek. Further delving into the subject will be too much of a dead horse critisicm of SC2(look last MC woes), not a great topic to do that so but amazing analogy came to my mind. Lets look at Nada, the most fruitful in terms of longevity character in BW. He started as Boxer rival, engaged into micro battles on 1 base, he transitioned into Iloveoov-Savior times and discovered the macro, on his last stand vs JangBi in MSL he copied the Flash build. Interesting post and I think a lot of people share the same sentiment. To me as a pretty uninformed noob, SC2 just doesn't seem to have the same depth or complexity as BW. So many units are designed for a specific role or a purpose, leaving little room for creativity and innovation. I wouldn't be surprised if the HotS metagame remains stagnant until Blizz patches something or LotV comes around. | ||
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Cheren
United States2911 Posts
On September 18 2013 06:48 Phyanketto wrote: These are both really good analogies. Watching Flash and Jaedong play SC2 is like watching Lebron James and Michael Jordan play middle-school basketball. And all the people in the audience have no respect for how fucking good they are. Watching Bomber vs Jaedong was like watching Michael Jordan switch from basketball to baseball and strike out to pitches he'd never seen before, except with a lot more people thinking he'd do well. | ||
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GTPGlitch
5061 Posts
On September 18 2013 06:48 Phyanketto wrote: These are both really good analogies. Watching Flash and Jaedong play SC2 is like watching Lebron James and Michael Jordan play middle-school basketball. And all the people in the audience have no respect for how fucking good they are. Uh, no, because middle school basketball is the same as normal basketball... Basket->baseball is a much better comparison | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On September 18 2013 07:22 GTPGlitch wrote: Uh, no, because middle school basketball is the same as normal basketball... Basket->baseball is a much better comparison Its more like going from Baseball to Teaball, similar game, just removes a lot of the skill which differentiates batters. | ||
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GTPGlitch
5061 Posts
On September 18 2013 07:23 SupLilSon wrote: Its more like going from Baseball to Teaball, similar game, just removes a lot of the skill which differentiates batters. ...not really... Just the skills that you need to differentiate yourself are different, and there's a lot more emphasis on individual style. Just because flash is doing pretty bad and jaedong isn't the best ever of all time doesn't make it less skill... | ||
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DinoToss
Poland507 Posts
On September 18 2013 07:11 SupLilSon wrote: Interesting post and I think a lot of people share the same sentiment. To me as a pretty uninformed noob, SC2 just doesn't seem to have the same depth or complexity as BW. So many units are designed for a specific role or a purpose, leaving little room for creativity and innovation. I wouldn't be surprised if the HotS metagame remains stagnant until Blizz patches something or LotV comes around. If Blizzard cuts *something* from SC2, and adds something improved, that will change the flow of all MUs, maybe reset the economy system? Throw a goddamn wrench Blizzard, make people wonder what is the most optimal way of playing for themselves and not make them open Innovation replay and see "ah so this is TvZ". We are already past the last stadium of BW growth in SC2, because everyone plays macro and everyone fight for last 5% efficiency on pro level, its no wonder there are almost no inventors and geniuses in SC2 anymore. | ||
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LeapofFaith
United States446 Posts
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PerSe
United Kingdom550 Posts
Having said that, there are some problems with the way SC2 seems to play out, that makes it less appealing to watch. The economy system, the way the units clump up, the posturing deathballs and then 5 sec battle that decides the game... | ||
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Shana
Indonesia1814 Posts
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Jaaaaasper
United States10225 Posts
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On September 18 2013 08:13 PerSe wrote: Whatever your opinions on SC2 might be, it isn't an easier game than BW, because the skill cap is still ridiculously high and nobody will reach it. That it happens to be easier to macro doesn't make the game ezpz, it just means the skill differentiation occurs in other areas of game play. Having said that, there are some problems with the way SC2 seems to play out, that makes it less appealing to watch. The economy system, the way the units clump up, the posturing deathballs and then 5 sec battle that decides the game... Yeah it is still a game that decides who have more skills in those aspects but I understand why people won't find it appealing as BW was a constant struggle to get a head and crawling back into the game with crazy plays which SC2 rarely have and BW constantly possesses. | ||
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TemujinGK
United States483 Posts
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larse
1611 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/nUeWq14.jpg) KeSPA team's retirement list since the last SPL (Green is retired and yellow is rumored to retire) (A few mistakes) | ||
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
On September 18 2013 09:36 larse wrote: KeSPA team's retirement list since the last SPL (Green is retired and yellow is rumored to retire) (A few mistakes) really that many KT players are rumored to be retired? | ||
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
edit : I won't look at kt the same any more this crew of mercenaries and rag tag team pummel skt to oblivion when things were rough and impossible and because of that they have my respect forever. Flash isn't the only guy who make kt rolster a memorable team its because of these crucial member of teams who are supporting flash that made kt rolster who they are today.. | ||
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
"All eSports help each other, building the scene together", they said. Bollocks, I say! I did enjoy the last progleague a lot, it's so ad that it's changing so much. Is this really mostly due to WCS? Is it more to do with LoL (and maybe DotA and WoT)? Is there another factor playing an even larger part? | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
On September 18 2013 09:37 Dodgin wrote: really that many KT players are rumored to be retired? They did not show up in a few KT's group activities, so here come the rumors. | ||
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9172 Posts
On September 18 2013 09:36 larse wrote: KeSPA team's retirement list since the last SPL (Green is retired and yellow is rumored to retire) (A few mistakes) It makes me wonder how many of the retirements were pushed rather than genuine. The relatively even spread suggests teams are all reducing their rosters for the next season. If they do need to cut a certain quota, those close to military service make the most sense. I'm expecting KT to have 2-3 retirements shortly including Mind and Hoejja. | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
On September 18 2013 09:36 larse wrote: KeSPA team's retirement list since the last SPL (Green is retired and yellow is rumored to retire) (A few mistakes) there are a few mistakes in the table, as the title says. Major isn't retired. Another mistake is that ALBM didn't retire but is in WW. | ||
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Arco
United States2090 Posts
On September 18 2013 08:13 PerSe wrote: Whatever your opinions on SC2 might be, it isn't an easier game than BW, because the skill cap is still ridiculously high and nobody will reach it. That it happens to be easier to macro doesn't make the game ezpz, it just means the skill differentiation occurs in other areas of game play. Having said that, there are some problems with the way SC2 seems to play out, that makes it less appealing to watch. The economy system, the way the units clump up, the posturing deathballs and then 5 sec battle that decides the game... Can you tell me about these other areas of skill differentiation? Decision making? Metagaming? Macro, as you stated, is easier. Micro is also much easier. Those are two huge aspects of RTS fundamentals being easier. That means multitasking is also easier. How does that make the game harder? Mechanically it's very simple compared to StarCraft. Not trying to say that StarCraft 2 is "easy," but comparing the mechanical difficulty of it to StarCraft it is obvious which is more difficult. It's not like StarCraft didn't have decision making or metagaming. | ||
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Hesmyrr
Canada5776 Posts
He had been one of my favourite Terrans | ||
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VManOfMana
United States764 Posts
On September 18 2013 09:41 Fuchsteufelswild wrote: LoL is killing my RTS eSports and my Woongjin and other players I loved! ㅠ_____ㅠ "All eSports help each other, building the scene together", they said. Bollocks, I say! I did enjoy the last progleague a lot, it's so ad that it's changing so much. Is this really mostly due to WCS? Is it more to do with LoL (and maybe DotA and WoT)? Is there another factor playing an even larger part? LOL is not responsible for SC2 being not enjoyable to play nor watch compared to its competition nor predecesor. It's not like people can only like one game at a time. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
On September 18 2013 09:56 Xiphos wrote: And the most deplorable thing is that because of SC2's lack of popularity, the option to perpetually keep playing the game in military service is no longer there because of Airforce's departure. This really sucks man. I find it interesting there's no ACE team for LoL, might not be because of sc2 that it no longer exists. | ||
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GTPGlitch
5061 Posts
On September 18 2013 09:49 Arco wrote: Can you tell me about these other areas of skill differentiation? Decision making? Metagaming? Macro, as you stated, is easier. Micro is also much easier. Those are two huge aspects of RTS fundamentals being easier. That means multitasking is also easier. How does that make the game harder? Mechanically it's very simple compared to StarCraft. Not trying to say that StarCraft 2 is "easy," but comparing the mechanical difficulty of it to StarCraft it is obvious which is more difficult. It's not like StarCraft didn't have decision making or metagaming. Please tell me how micro is easier in star2... Speaking as a Terran player, there is so much more that requires micro to minimize damage than in bw... Ghost vs ht, splitting vs colossi, splitting vs banes, splitting vs fungals, mitigating forcefields, rapid positioning and redeployment of widow mines while also splitting bio, and so on.. And everything dies quick and clumps easy, so micro becomes a lot more urgent and necessary in big fights | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On September 18 2013 07:11 SupLilSon wrote: Interesting post and I think a lot of people share the same sentiment. To me as a pretty uninformed noob, SC2 just doesn't seem to have the same depth or complexity as BW. So many units are designed for a specific role or a purpose, leaving little room for creativity and innovation. I wouldn't be surprised if the HotS metagame remains stagnant until Blizz patches something or LotV comes around. I would actually say it is the opposite. Brrodwar units were much more specialized and well thought out. Each unit had a particular set of niches that did not overlap with any other unit in the same faction. This caused the units to be really effective at what they did. Units were tools, a means to an end, and forced players to tech certain ways to get their own unit tool to solve problems created by another unit tool. In short, not only were units balanced against other races, they were also balanced against their own races so every unit was really good at each unit's role but that role was limited so you don't have units on the same faction competing with other units in the same faction. One of the biggest errors that Blizzard made in SCII I feel was to make the units too random and unfocussed and weakening unit niches so you end up with big a-move blobs and specialized units that you don't use because something else is better at the job. Not only that but that something else that is better is better at lots of things... | ||
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WeRRa
378 Posts
On September 18 2013 10:02 GTPGlitch wrote: Please tell me how micro is easier in star2... Speaking as a Terran player, there is so much more that requires micro to minimize damage than in bw... Ghost vs ht, splitting vs colossi, splitting vs banes, splitting vs fungals, mitigating forcefields, rapid positioning and redeployment of widow mines while also splitting bio, and so on.. And everything dies quick and clumps easy, so micro becomes a lot more urgent and necessary in big fights The micro terran needs now, is nothing compared to what it is was in bw. All the stuff people call now really good micro, was standart stuff you learned at the lowest lvl in bw. You surely never played bw, otherwise you would talk not such nonsense. | ||
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N.geNuity
United States5112 Posts
difference is brood war you need to micro constantly since about the 6 minute mark (depends on openings, etc, but generally can do a FD expo tvp or like a 1 barrack expand tvz; tvt also generally became early expo) where sc2 you *can* mill around until 1 engagement that decides the game. 10 seconds of micro as opposed to about 10 minutes of micro determines the game. | ||
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aLt_F4tw
Canada47 Posts
NOoooooooooooooooooooooooo ! | ||
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GTPGlitch
5061 Posts
On September 18 2013 10:25 WeRRa wrote: The micro terran needs now, is nothing compared to what it is was in bw. All the stuff people call now really good micro, was standart stuff you learned at the lowest lvl in bw. You surely never played bw, otherwise you would talk not such nonsense. Silly me, how could I not notice all the 4M pushing and forcefields and colossi and infestors in bw, a game where the pathing had units way more spread than in star2 and had much longer engagements | ||
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metzninja
New Zealand626 Posts
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PH
United States6173 Posts
On September 17 2013 16:02 RoyaleBrainSlug wrote: The best terran who never won a tournament retired :C so long Light and GL in the military! No that's Sea. | ||
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Arco
United States2090 Posts
On September 18 2013 10:02 GTPGlitch wrote: Please tell me how micro is easier in star2... Speaking as a Terran player, there is so much more that requires micro to minimize damage than in bw... Ghost vs ht, splitting vs colossi, splitting vs banes, splitting vs fungals, mitigating forcefields, rapid positioning and redeployment of widow mines while also splitting bio, and so on.. And everything dies quick and clumps easy, so micro becomes a lot more urgent and necessary in big fights - Splitting is in Brood War - Wraith/Mutalisk micro - Vulture micro - Shuttle/Reaver micro - Cloning spells (no smartcast) - 12 units per control group - The need to create concaves before every battle while dealing with terrible AI Most importantly of all: - Units in Brood War can be manipulated to increase their effectiveness in some cases by a whopping 10x, whereas in StarCraft 2 units can be manipulated to increase their effectiveness between 1.5 and 1.55x, according to Day9. Video below. + Show Spoiler + Day9 video about SC vs SC2 micro Day9 in Korea at a BW MSL Ro8 match instead of a SC2 GSTL Final (SlayerS going for a second GSTL title) | ||
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DyEnasTy
United States3714 Posts
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Arco
United States2090 Posts
On September 18 2013 10:46 GTPGlitch wrote: Silly me, how could I not notice all the 4M pushing and forcefields and colossi and infestors in bw, a game where the pathing had units way more spread than in star2 and had much longer engagements Obviously you never played BW because you never tried to A-Move dragoons into chokes which clumped up and got massacred by splash damage against Siege Tanks (which had higher damage in BW by far) and Spider Mines, played Bio TvZ against Plague and Lurkers, or split Muta stacks via cloning 1 by 1 against Irradiate. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On September 18 2013 11:06 Arco wrote: - Splitting is in Brood War - Wraith/Mutalisk micro - Vulture micro - Shuttle/Reaver micro - Cloning spells (no smartcast) - 12 units per control group - The need to create concaves before every battle while dealing with terrible AI Most importantly of all: - Units in Brood War can be manipulated to increase their effectiveness in some cases by a whopping 10x, whereas in StarCraft 2 units can be manipulated to increase their effectiveness between 1.5 and 1.55x, according to Day9. Video below. + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxx55e1ZQCY Day9 video about SC vs SC2 micro http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ak1ramFDaIA Day9 in Korea at a BW MSL Ro8 match instead of a SC2 GSTL Final (SlayerS going for a second GSTL title) Idk you are forgetting manly things here... Such as tank positioning. Lurker/Defiler composition MnM control, yes the REAL kind Carrier micro Storm casting Zealot bombing Dragoon moving. | ||
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Arco
United States2090 Posts
On September 18 2013 11:13 Xiphos wrote: Idk you are forgetting manly things here... Such as tank positioning. Lurker/Defiler composition MnM control, yes the REAL kind Carrier micro Storm casting Zealot bombing Dragoon moving. Yes, just a small list of examples...there are many many techniques in BW. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
BUT BUT because of the other aspects like actual harass units like toss' storm drop, Terran's vulture raids and bionic drops, Zerg, overlord drop/muta supports AND by the fact that macroing was much harder and had a more effect into the gameplay, you can sort of CLAW your way back into the game unlike SC2. | ||
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Darkhorse
United States23455 Posts
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9172 Posts
On September 18 2013 11:20 Xiphos wrote: you can sort of CLAW your way back into the game unlike SC2. You're so biased it's ridiculous, comebacks happen regularly in SC2 and if there's a significant skill difference the weaker player virtually can't win, even if they get a lead. If you can't claw your way back it's because you're not as good as you think you are. | ||
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LuckyMacro
United States1482 Posts
On September 18 2013 02:12 Crisium wrote: Light is the best TvZ player to never win a SL, certainly. But his TvP was always considered sub par, and his TvT was only good; rarely great. Best Terrans to never win a SL, I'd say: 1. Sea 2. Midas 3. Light 4. Iris Light's really only known for his TvZ, but my god that TvZ... Unspoiler for awesomeness: + Show Spoiler + The only blip was a 9 game (!!) TvZ span where he only played JD and still went an impressive 4-5 against the Tyrant. Midas number 1 for me Light's tvz wassss pretty freaken beautiful. Should rewatch some of those games. | ||
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GTPGlitch
5061 Posts
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On September 18 2013 11:37 Scarecrow wrote: You're so biased it's ridiculous, comebacks happen regularly in SC2 and if there's a significant skill difference the weaker player virtually can't win, even if they get a lead. If you can't claw your way back it's because you're not as good as you think you are. Everytime I see a comeback happening, it is mostly because of the lead player blew it by doing something stupid. Like Innovation vs MVP in WCS Grand Final Season 1 Inno got a huge lead with his medivac/hellbat combination and gained a huge map presence. Then MVP tech switched to Vikings to shut down medivac. Innovation went bogus and dogmatically stuck with Medivac/hellbat marine tank combosition and got all of his medivac shut down and gg for him. Case in point: being adamantly stupid. MVP did have a few good engagement there with what he have but it was mainly due to Bogus' stubbornness that he won. And there is no reason for petulances like name calling. EDIT: It was actually in WCS Grand Final Season 1 | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On September 18 2013 02:12 Crisium wrote: Light is the best TvZ player to never win a SL, certainly. But his TvP was always considered sub par, and his TvT was only good; rarely great. Best Terrans to never win a SL, I'd say: 1. Sea 2. Midas 3. Light 4. Iris Light's really only known for his TvZ, but my god that TvZ... Unspoiler for awesomeness: + Show Spoiler + The only blip was a 9 game (!!) TvZ span where he only played JD and still went an impressive 4-5 against the Tyrant. Holy, all those wins :O I've only ever watched several of his TvZs but man, this guy is frickin good if his TvZ record is like that Oo; Where does he compare with Flash? I'm guessing equal in TvZ? Either way, sad to see light and flying go. I remember light's first PL SCII game where he rolled over Fantasy with sheer macro and flying knocked out Stephano with the same 4 gate build(+1 attack as well, more delayed in 2nd) back in Code S or something. | ||
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palexhur
Colombia730 Posts
On September 18 2013 11:54 Xiphos wrote: Everytime I see a comeback happening, it is mostly because of the lead player blew it by doing something stupid. Like Innovation vs MVP in MLG. Inno got a huge lead with his medivac/hellbat combination and gained a huge map presence. Then MVP tech switched to Vikings to shut down medivac. Innovation went bogus and dogmatically stuck with Medivac/hellbat marine tank combosition and got all of his medivac shut down and gg for him. Case in point: being adamantly stupid. MVP did have a few good engagement there with what he have but it was mainly due to Bogus' stubbornness that he won. Actually you are right Xiphos, when I see a comeback in SC2, most of the time is becuase the leading player just threw the game, I dont even remember the name of the players but that happens in DH Bucarest like two or three times (one game was TvT with one having a very bad engagement where he lost all his army), I like much more BW than SC2 but I watch SC2 and I think the one being biased is you Scarecrow. | ||
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shaftofpleasure
Korea (North)1375 Posts
I'm tired of all these SC2 people claiming that their game is as equally hard as BW yet in BW few can claim to be the best while in SC2, almost everyone in a sponsored is considered the best by their peers. | ||
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DreamChaser
1649 Posts
On September 17 2013 16:04 Delphiki wrote: Too many retirements I don't visit TL as often but i swear i see at least one decent name retiring every time i look on that side bar. | ||
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On September 18 2013 12:04 shaftofpleasure wrote: SC2 should make their own pimpest plays. With the amount of players claiming they are hella good, there should be a long list of pimp plays we can watch and let's try to compare those to BW. for example, are there any games comparable to Boxer vs Joyo? I'm tired of all these SC2 people claiming that their game is as equally hard as BW yet in BW few can claim to be the best while in SC2, almost everyone in a sponsored is considered the best by their peers. BW is clearly harder mechanically. Anyone who argues otherwise is nuts. But mechanics isn't the only thing that makes a game difficult. Decision making and strategy in SC2 is far more difficult because everything is so punishing and quick. Unless you keep making the right decisions you can let your opponent back in the game. In a way, the fact that there isn't a steady list of dominant players just shows how difficult it is to master that side of SC2; basically, noone has done it yet. Whether or not that is the kind of 'difficult' or 'hard' that makes the game more pleasing to watch is beside the point that both games have facets that are harder than the other. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On September 18 2013 11:54 Xiphos wrote: Everytime I see a comeback happening, it is mostly because of the lead player blew it by doing something stupid. Like Innovation vs MVP in MLG. Inno got a huge lead with his medivac/hellbat combination and gained a huge map presence. Then MVP tech switched to Vikings to shut down medivac. Innovation went bogus and dogmatically stuck with Medivac/hellbat marine tank combosition and got all of his medivac shut down and gg for him. Case in point: being adamantly stupid. MVP did have a few good engagement there with what he have but it was mainly due to Bogus' stubbornness that he won. And there is no reason for petulances like name calling. gotta agree with this. MVP won that game because Innovation didn't take advantage of being ahead so much and just sat back allowing MVP to macro up then lost lots of engagements then mvp made the right decision and sieging his natural = GG. I gotta agree. It's easier to come back in BW because of how macro works. Forgetting to go back and make units compared to forgetting to click a control group and make units. One is easier and one is harder imo. Anyways, let's focus on light and flying retiring. Someone mentioned light said he won't stream BW | ||
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shaftofpleasure
Korea (North)1375 Posts
On September 18 2013 12:11 lichter wrote: BW is clearly harder mechanically. Anyone who argues otherwise is nuts. But mechanics isn't the only thing that makes a game difficult. Decision making and strategy in SC2 is far more difficult because everything is so punishing and quick. Unless you keep making the right decisions you can let your opponent back in the game. In a way, the fact that there isn't a steady list of dominant players just shows how difficult it is to master that side of SC2; basically, noone has done it yet. Whether or not that is the kind of 'difficult' or 'hard' that makes the game more pleasing to watch is beside the point that both games have facets that are harder than the other. What the fuck are you talking about? Do you think BW doesn't have this? It practically created the Decision making + strategy in RTS. SC2 is a rock/paper/scissors game. It is not complicated. Decision making and strategy is almost non-existent in SC2 because there is no time for it. It's all about countering what your opponents is making and that is not fucking strategy and this is based on most games I saw. You do not see that in BW. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On September 18 2013 12:04 shaftofpleasure wrote: SC2 should make their own pimpest plays. With the amount of players claiming they are hella good, there should be a long list of pimp plays we can watch and let's try to compare those to BW. for example, are there any games comparable to Boxer vs Joyo? I'm tired of all these SC2 people claiming that their game is as equally hard as BW yet in BW few can claim to be the best while in SC2, almost everyone in a sponsored is considered the best by their peers. What? Doesn't make any sense haha. There are like 4-5 players that we say can pretend to the title of "best". Like 1 or 2 per race... And players don't claim shit, it's the community who likes to give them titles and make power rankings. | ||
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shaftofpleasure
Korea (North)1375 Posts
On September 18 2013 12:19 ZenithM wrote: What? Doesn't make any sense haha. There are like 4-5 players that we say can pretend to the title of "best". Like 1 or 2 per race... and in BW there's 1. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Well, there is hardly more than one guy playing the game now so it's not that hard. But seriously, was there? You're thinking Flash? He was certainly the most successful, but was he the best at the end of BW? Not Jangbi? Not Fantasy? | ||
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shaftofpleasure
Korea (North)1375 Posts
On September 18 2013 12:25 ZenithM wrote: Well, there is hardly more than one guy playing the game now so it's not that hard. But seriously, was there? You're thinking Flash? He was certainly the most successful, but was he the best at the end of BW? Not Jangbi? Not Fantasy? It depends on your bias. And no, not Jangbi. He may won the last but he's not the best. Nor is Flash, successful but not the best. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On September 18 2013 12:29 shaftofpleasure wrote: It depends on your bias. And no, not Jangbi. He may won the last but he's not the best. Nor is Flash, successful but not the best. LOL ok man. So there is 1, but there is one per TL user? That's fine by me, I for one think that MarineKing is the single best SC2 player. | ||
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On September 18 2013 12:18 shaftofpleasure wrote: What the fuck are you talking about? Do you think BW doesn't have this? It practically created the Decision making + strategy in RTS. SC2 is a rock/paper/scissors game. It is not complicated. Decision making and strategy is almost non-existent in SC2 because there is no time for it. It's all about countering what your opponents is making and that is not fucking strategy and this is based on most games I saw. You do not see that in BW. Of course BW has this. But in BW it is possible to make up for lapses in judgement with superior micro and macro. It is more difficult in SC2 to separate one's mechanics from the rest of the pack since these aspects of the game are easier. The only differentiator between most of the top players is their decision making, strategy (builds, overarching game plans), tactics (army movement, flanks, harass, etc), star sense and mental fortitude. The lack of other differentiators, coupled with death balls and terrible terrible damage, amplify the importance of the abovementioned factors. Mistakes and bad decisions in SC2 are more punishing. One wrong stim and you lose. One wrong unsiege on creep and you lose. One wrong move command on your mutas and you lose. A bunch of badly placed forcefields and you lose. Perhaps the approach of making fewer mistakes, as opposed to playing better, ends up making a lot of SC2 games dull or unsatisfying--for example, the Inno vs Mvp game mentioned where Xiphos attributes the win to Innovation's mistakes--but that does not mean the game is any easier (or any harder, for that matter). I find that the rock-paper-scissors argument is true to a certain extent, but it does not invalidate the strategic depth of SC2. It's more like rock-paper-scissors-lizard-superman-shoes-wallet-felafel-textbook..... | ||
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Kashll
United States1117 Posts
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
I can go on and on and on. Decision-making/strategy isn't far more difficult, it's just more punishing in some aspects (two different things). It'd be more difficult if SC2 actually introduced more/different elements that players would have to consider (like idk, neutral creeps, night/day system, heroes .. :d), but SC2 and BW are essentially the same game but w/ different units and different graphics/engine so it's really the same .. | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
On September 18 2013 12:31 lichter wrote: Of course BW has this. But in BW it is possible to make up for lapses in judgement with superior micro and macro. It is more difficult in SC2 to separate one's mechanics from the rest of the pack since these aspects of the game are easier. The only differentiator between most of the top players is their decision making, strategy (builds, overarching game plans), tactics (army movement, flanks, harass, etc), star sense and mental fortitude. The lack of other differentiators, coupled with death balls and terrible terrible damage, amplify the importance of the abovementioned factors. Mistakes and bad decisions in SC2 are more punishing. One wrong stim and you lose. One wrong unsiege on creep and you lose. One wrong move command on your mutas and you lose. A bunch of badly placed forcefields and you lose. Perhaps the approach of making fewer mistakes, as opposed to playing better, ends up making a lot of SC2 games dull or unsatisfying--for example, the Inno vs Mvp game mentioned where Xiphos attributes the win to Innovation's mistakes--but that does not mean the game is any easier (or any harder, for that matter). I find that the rock-paper-scissors argument is true to a certain extent, but it does not invalidate the strategic depth of SC2. It's more like rock-paper-scissors-lizard-superman-shoes-wallet-felafel-textbook..... But it can be said that most of the strategic depth in SC2 is disturbingly tied to having the right composition. A game of counters hence the rock-paper-scissors vibe. If a player's composition is slightly wrong to the ideal one.. it can be so punishing to the point where the player's entire army gets wiped out so fast in an head on engagement. I would not have made this statement if SC2 had high ground mechanics because this could be used to counter balance the counters in an engagement. Unfortunately SC2 has none of those so the cool looking terrain rarely means much outside positioning. I think this is one of the most frustrating aspect of this game. A good example I can think of is.. comparing a cloaked wraith opener to a cloaked banshee opener. The game is far too punishing for even the slightest of mistakes, especially when it is a compositional one where as in BW, there was alot more general units which meant that you were winning not because of the composition but rather from micro/macro/decision making/engagements etc. I can't remember the last time i thought the player won because of the better composition in BW (outside that free vs Hiya game with cloaked wraiths and nukes xD vs protoss). | ||
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
Again, the argument isn't that BW lacks strategic depth or that its depth itself is inferior to SC2. That's an incredulous claim. The argument is that, because there are smaller margins for differentiators of skill in SC2 (because micro and mechanics are easier), the importance of strategy and decision making is elevated, and their impact on the game is increased. This in turn makes those aspects more difficult because there are fewer ways to recoup from mistakes in those aspects through other means. In fact, SC2's oft maligned counter-recounter system also makes strategy harder because the margins for error are tighter. It is a shallow type of difficulty, I agree, but we aren't arguing the quality of the game here, just different modes of difficulty. I am not arguing that SC2 is somehow superior to BW, or that it has more depth. They are similar in many ways, and they are different in many ways as well, and that is a completely different argument. But to insist that BW is absolutely more difficult (in a 'what it takes to win' over other competitors sort of way) in every aspect to SC2 is pure bias. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On September 18 2013 13:31 lichter wrote: Of course those same things happen in BW; a lot of the units and the general concept of the game is the same. But big battles in BW often happen at lower supplies and smaller portions of one's army. This means that big engagements and mistakes in those engagements don't always result in the loss of one's entire army and don't always allow an immediate counter attack to simply win. Also, it is possible to hold off superior numbers of troops with micro and multitask (rallying units effectively, producing units consistently, for example). Again, the argument isn't that BW lacks strategic depth or that its depth itself is inferior to SC2. That's an incredulous claim. The argument is that, because there are smaller margins for differentiators of skill in SC2 (because micro and mechanics are easier), the importance of strategy and decision making is elevated, and their impact on the game is increased. This in turn makes those aspects more difficult because there are fewer ways to recoup from mistakes in those aspects through other means. In fact, SC2's oft maligned counter-recounter system also makes strategy harder because the margins for error are tighter. It is a shallow type of difficulty, I agree, but we aren't arguing the quality of the game here, just different modes of difficulty. I am not arguing that SC2 is somehow superior to BW, or that it has more depth. They are similar in many ways, and they are different in many ways as well, and that is a completely different argument. But to insist that BW is absolutely more difficult (in a 'what it takes to win' over other competitors sort of way) in every aspect to SC2 is pure bias. gotta agree with some of these points. I think this relates to the terrible terrible damage that keeps getting thrown around. If you make a single mistake, it's harder to recover unlike in BW where mechanics are important thus you can get rolled right away. SCII is heavily focused on composition and if your composition isn't the right one, you'll get rolled easy. I do want to say that I think decision making in both games is very important but strategy though, I think strategy in SCII is much harder due to how fast units kill each other. In a way, it means you have to micro faster to gain an advantage but in another way, it also means there is less opportunity for micro. It's also the reason you can do many different strategies and make them work. It comes down to your execution, micro and decision making but that's harder if you have to play a certain way in SCII. | ||
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9172 Posts
On September 18 2013 13:21 YyapSsap wrote: I can't remember the last time i thought the player won because of the better composition in BW You must have a terrible memory, it happens regularly. BC/wraith/carrier/muta switches. Mixing in extra firebats for a bust vs lings. Going deep six vs protoss. Bio-goliath vs zerg. Probably the most composition dependent mu is zerg vs mech as it has plenty of options and unit mixes for both players become really important. The mu's that are less composition based are the ones that are so stable that you see the same comp's played out again and again. On September 18 2013 13:41 ArvickHero wrote: that's not strategy/decision-making being more difficult, it's just winning consistently is more difficult in SC2 due to design. I'd like to see a comparison of individual winrates for prepared leagues (GSL + PL vs OSL/MSL + PL). Win rates for the top players don't seem that different to those in BW. I doubt guys like JD and Taeja are getting lucky, they seem to be amazingly consistent lately. | ||
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On September 18 2013 13:41 ArvickHero wrote: that's not strategy/decision-making being more difficult, it's just winning consistently is more difficult in SC2 due to design. I am not sure we mean 'difficult' in the same way here. I think a lot of people are stuck in the mindset that every argument is actually about which is the better game, and that tarnishes everything with bias. It isn't the case. Discussions can be had about both games without having to imply either being universally better or superior or one being deficient. | ||
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Indrium
United States2236 Posts
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO | ||
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On September 18 2013 13:49 lichter wrote: I am not sure we mean 'difficult' in the same way here. I think a lot of people are stuck in the mindset that every argument is actually about which is the better game, and that tarnishes everything with bias. It isn't the case. Discussions can be had about both games without having to imply either being universally better or superior or one being deficient. well no I'm not even arguing that BW is better or w/e. I'm objectively defining more difficult as "harder to perform/execute/figure out". And when you look at the two, it's the same level of difficulty, because both games are essentially the same in terms of strategy and decision-making. BW's micro can be considered more difficult overall due to UI limitations and such, but SC2 has it's own quirks that can make its micro more difficult in certain aspects (forcefielding, clumping). In the case of BW and SC2 though, the difficulty in executing/creating strategies and builds are essentially the same. You're arguing that SC2 places more importance on these aspects, because they have a bigger relative impact on the game, and therefore is more difficult. That's like saying strategy in Advance Wars is more difficult than SC2 strategy, because strategy has a bigger relative impact in AW (since there's no micro). more important =/= more difficult | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
On September 18 2013 13:49 Scarecrow wrote: You must have a terrible memory, it happens regularly. BC/wraith/carrier/muta switches. Mixing in extra firebats for a bust vs lings. Going deep six vs protoss. Bio-goliath vs zerg. Probably the most composition dependent mu is zerg vs mech has plenty of options and unit mixes for both players becomes really important. The mu's that are less composition based are the ones that are so stable that you see the same comp's played out again and again.. I don't quite agree with your statement that it happened on a regular basis. The biggest difference is that a comp switch in SC2 is far more effective than BW. Sure the opposition went for surprise BC (for one you cant rush for these things or good luck trying), but it isn't the end of the world. I start getting MASS goliaths/turret rings everywhere because I can immediately activate by plan B i.e. turtle with tanks/turrets/goliaths then get my own set of BCs. Carrier switches also are a risk because the moment it is detected, say hello to an endless amount of goliaths. Its quite different because in SC2, a tech switch = your units getting hard countered = just 1A to their base into victory. BW quite didn't work like that because you couldn't just 1A your army. They would instantly produce the units that was required to deal with the new threat. Sure the momentum swings the other way but no way its the end of the game unlike SC2. Deep six? thats more of an all in cheese that rarely sees the light of the day because the success rate is so low. The thing about BW is that its so rare to pull out a fast one to seal the deal (relying purely on comp alone vs execution/micro). All three races have very very strong AA units (goliaths, scourge, corsairs/storms/archons w/e) so switching to an air composition is very difficult to pull off. Ground units tend to not hard counter each other so generally speaking, you can hold up your own. I guess the damage system also attribute to this unit dynamics in BW. The fact of the matter is that for instance in the TvZ matchup, just because he produced A units doesnt necessarily mean im going to flat out die because of no unit B to counter. A good analogy would be in SC2 mentality, oh he got marines, so i better get lurkers or im going to die since mutas will just evaporate. But the fact is that you might not even need lurkers and rely 100% on mutas alone (say hello to JDs mutas.. frightening to watch) even if they have a friggn science vessel. Its quite hard to portray what im trying to say unless you've seen/played a ton of games but its clear enough that it was less punishing in the BW meta if you were "outcomped" unless its something along the lines of i dont have AA and you only got air units (or i got no ovies and DTs are everywhere).. Only because of the high ground mechanics, possibly pathing, less hard counters (especially the air vs ground unit relationship) and the ability to micro the unit for x10 the effectiveness to overcome these "out-comped" scenarios. | ||
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chaosTheory_14cc
Canada1270 Posts
On September 18 2013 09:36 larse wrote: That's not even KT anymore. KTFlash will never have been more true. Well that aside hopefully we'll get to see Light stream BW. | ||
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Phyanketto
United States505 Posts
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On September 18 2013 14:23 ArvickHero wrote: well no I'm not even arguing that BW is better or w/e. I'm objectively defining difficult as "harder to perform/execute/figure out". And when you look at the two, it's the same level of difficulty, because both games are essentially the same in terms of strategy and decision-making. BW's micro can be considered more difficult overall due to UI limitations and such, but SC2 has it's own quirks that can make its micro more difficult in certain aspects (forcefielding, clumping). In the case of BW and SC2 though, the difficulty in executing/creating strategies and builds are essentially the same. You're arguing that SC2 places more importance on these aspects, because they have a bigger relative impact on the game, and therefore is more difficult. That's like saying strategy in Advance Wars is more difficult than SC2 strategy, because strategy has a bigger relative impact in AW (since there's no micro). more important =/= more difficult The equation I propose isn't as straightforward as you present. As mentioned earlier: 1. Players have fewer avenues of differentiation due to the improvements/simplification in UI and mico/macro mechanics. 2. Because it is difficult to gain an advantage through these means, the impact of strategy and decision making is heightened. 3. Build orders and compositions are more precise in SC2 (due to counter-recounter), and there are very few catch-all builds. All ins are also understood to be stronger in SC2. This makes scouting early on very important, as missing a gas count on a single geyser can mean the difference between victory and defeat. For example, droning up to ~65 as opposed to ~58 against an immortal sentry all in can spell disaster for a player scouting late. 4. A proper counter or composition is necessary when facing certain others (roaches necessary versus hellbat marauder timings; corruptors vs mass phoenix; ghosts vs HTs; etc). You can't just stick with your composition and win with micro/macro. Again, knowing what your opponent is doing is necessary if you want to counter it effectively. Again, all of this is present in BW, but because of a combination of terrible terrible damage, easier macro and rallying, shorter battles, weaker defenders advantage, lesser impact of micro/macro strength, and more exact counter/recounter builds and compositions, there is a slimmer margin for error in choosing strategies and tactics. In BW there is more strategic leniency in terms of builds/compositions (since by game design it is not a series of hard-counters) as well as in their execution (since it is possible to make up the difference in micro/macro). So it's more like: Greater impact on outcome + Fewer ways to gain advantages + More exact builds + More exact compositions = More difficult Difficult can also mean that something causes hardships or is problematic. I don't know about Advance Wars so I cannot comment on that analogy. I suppose if I saw enough depth and complexity in its strategy (despite being less than that of BW or SC2) I would call it difficult, yes. | ||
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Phyanketto
United States505 Posts
On September 18 2013 15:17 lichter wrote: So it's more like: Greater impact on outcome + Fewer ways to gain advantages + More exact builds + More exact compositions = More difficult Difficult can also mean that something causes hardships or is problematic. I don't know about Advance Wars so I cannot comment on that analogy. I suppose if I saw enough depth and complexity in its strategy (despite being less than that of BW or SC2) I would call it difficult, yes. I recognize that you are trying to attribute coin-flips to strategy, but at the end of the day, SC2 is baseballs and BW is frisbees. | ||
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On September 18 2013 15:50 Phyanketto wrote: I recognize that you are trying to attribute coin-flips to strategy, but at the end of the day, SC2 is baseballs and BW is frisbees. It's not a sophisticated or interesting type of difficulty, I agree. | ||
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
Also in BW if you had the wrong comp, you lost, just like in SC2. I don't think I need to really extrapolate on this point. Leta vs Jaedong on Jade if you want to watch a game. So really, your equation is Greater impact + fewer ways to gain advantages. And I disagree that "fewer ways to gain advantages" actually counts, since we're arguing how difficult the strategy/decision-making is, not how you can win ezpz. So all you have is just greater impact, when the strategy is, again, essentially the same. | ||
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On September 18 2013 15:54 ArvickHero wrote: No, builds and compositions are in no way more precise in SC2. A huge part of BW (I'm assuming we're talking about the pro level) were pros continually innovating and refining builds to the extreme limits, Flash being the best at this (and called God). Bisu dominated PvZ in 2011 for his incredibly refined timings, being just seconds faster than other pros. The most extreme variant of 2 hatch muta is called the 5:30 build (or something like that, maybe it was 6:30). Proleague was full of snipers that practiced specific timing builds (Dear vs Flash on Ground Zero is a good example). There might not be a wealth of community resources detailing builds down to the exact second like SC2 has, but that doesn't mean BW was in any way less exact. Also in BW if you had the wrong comp, you lost, just like in SC2. I don't think I need to really extrapolate on this point. Leta vs Jaedong on Jade if you want to watch a game. So really, your equation is Greater impact + fewer ways to gain advantages. And I disagree that "fewer ways to gain advantages" actually counts, since we're arguing how difficult the strategy/decision-making is, not how you can win ezpz. So all you have is just greater impact, when the strategy is, again, essentially the same. By precise I mean you must react a specific way consistently depending on what your opponent is doing, not in terms of timings. Sorry if that shouldn't have been the word I used. That is the nature of a counter/hard counter system. For example, it is a necessity to build hydras against mass voidrays (until super late game when you can afford enough infestors to fungal-lock). Can't go mass queens, because they lose to ground army + too slow. Can't go mass mutas because VRs are decent in small numbers, enough so that phoenixes off 2+ stargates counters it hard. Can't go corruptors because they melt. There are many other examples of builds being very strict in SC2, and while I do think it's inelegant, it makes the game difficult because if you respond wrong to what you see (it is a game of limited information), or interpret what you see wrong, you will probably lose. You and YyapSsap curiously disagree about the importance of BW compositions, so maybe it is better for you to have that discussion between yourselves, since you know more about that than I do (I only played BW casually with friends, ie BGH). I was going to compare 2base carrier vs goliaths (JangBi vs Fantasy in OSL, forget which map) to VR vs hydras but I'm not good enough to talk about it. However, I will argue that losing big battles in BW (due to compositions) isn't as punishing because of factors such as battles going on longer (longer time to prepare to defend with better composition), battles occurring at lower supply (available supply to build better composition assuming there is bank), battles occurring with less portion of your army (units spread out everywhere means you don't lose your whole army), stronger defenders advantage (high ground mechanics, stronger tanks, etc), and difficulty of macro and rallying (I sucked terribly at rallying). Not to mention snowballing deathballs. The impact of losing big battles due to composition isn't the same; you didn't instantly lose in BW, unlike in SC2. Anyway, I feel like if we have yet to reach an impasse we will reach one eventually, so I suppose we just see a game's strategic difficulty differently. It's too complex a picture (you andYyapSsap disagree on some points despite agreeing overall) and of course some aspects are more difficult for one while not as difficulty for the other. | ||
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DinoToss
Poland507 Posts
Well that may happen too, but more importantly the strategical weight that lies on this muta pack, or wraith pack, or reaver harass, or carrier pack etc. Can be sometimes comparable to 100 food of SC2. The outcome of how you perform with that small tool can dictate the future outcome of the game. You know, and your opponent knows it too, suddenly this makes harass a centric point of the game, this is not a mere resource lost tab scenario, after making the decision there is a point of execution and after that there is a stage of counter execution from your opponent. Within that small window, decision making, strategy and micro prowess happens. 10 minute of muta micro, more importantly 2 control group micro, completly mind blowing. The decision making, micro prowess, and strategical weight that lied on a 20 units is beyond the rulebook of SC2. This is beyond rulebook of SC2 hence i believe BW and SC2 are vastly different games. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
And Brood War might have an equal amount (or more) of strategic difficulty, but it doesn't have the same relative importance compared to SC2. This enables players whom are strategically challenged to perform well purely based on mechanical proficiency, but for two players that have equal mechanics you could still get a lot of mileage out of improving your strategies. (that's why Flash was so good) | ||
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Nekovivie
United Kingdom2599 Posts
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DinoToss
Poland507 Posts
On September 18 2013 17:08 Grumbels wrote: You could also lose all your mutalisks in BW to one single irradiate or archon. And BW too had coinflips in the build orders. I think that the games are more similar than some people like to admit and that they share some negatives and positives, but in these sort of discussions we divide into BW & SC2 camps and only see the negatives and such on one side. And Brood War might have an equal amount (or more) of strategic difficulty, but it doesn't have the same relative importance compared to SC2. This enables players whom are strategically challenged to perform well purely based on mechanical proficiency, but for two players that have equal mechanics you could still get a lot of mileage out of improving your strategies. (that's why Flash was so good) Im not sure if first paragraph holds truth at professional level, when you lose whole muta pack to archon or irradiate its your own fault for not microing. You can outmicro both archons and vessel's irradiate, at any given time, there is no point in time where its impossible. And it was done many times. You can say that SC2 and BW are similar on general in broad view but i can you give glimpses of BW and SC2 that does not exist in their counter parts, those may be glimpses to some and mountains of difference to others. If there was otherwise we would be all happy one big family. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1491 Posts
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nighcol
298 Posts
On September 19 2013 00:48 iFU.pauline wrote: I think this is a good news, if they could be more retirement in order to destroy sc2 scene and bring back brood war im all for it. Not that I think sc2 scene will get destroyed even if Kespa quits it completely but if it did, I think you'd just get two dead games. Believing in a BW revival in any big way seems like wishful thinking. | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40186 Posts
On September 19 2013 00:48 iFU.pauline wrote: I think this is a good news, if they could be more retirement in order to destroy sc2 scene and bring back brood war im all for it. You must be naive that players retiring from sc2 will bring back bw. LoL already killed both. | ||
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Cheren
United States2911 Posts
On September 19 2013 03:15 lolfail9001 wrote: You must be naive that players retiring from sc2 will bring back bw. LoL already killed both. SC2 is in a weird spot because it's the only RTS with a tournament circuit. So a lot of people who play/watch SC2 actually like the game, but a vocal minority hates it and only sticks around because there's nowhere else to go RTS-wise. | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40186 Posts
On September 19 2013 03:38 Cheren wrote: SC2 is in a weird spot because it's the only RTS with a tournament circuit. So a lot of people who play/watch SC2 actually like the game, but a vocal minority hates it and only sticks around because there's nowhere else to go RTS-wise. Yeah, though i understand bitterness of some BW elitists... | ||
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Taipoka
Brazil1224 Posts
On September 19 2013 03:42 lolfail9001 wrote: Yeah, though i understand bitterness of some BW elitists... As if SC2 people aren´t elitists :D "Our game is hardcore" "That game is for casuals" "Our game have older people. That game is for children". And so on | ||
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havok55
United States276 Posts
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40186 Posts
On September 19 2013 05:57 Taipoka wrote: As if SC2 people aren´t elitists :D "Our game is hardcore" "That game is for casuals" "Our game have older people. That game is for children". And so on SC2 is hardcore compared to MOBAs. MOBAs do not bring you wrist problems nearly as fast :D. Also, SC2 is best game for kids ever: you do not need to think alot in it :3 But yes, compared to competitive BW SC2 is more casual than console shooters are compared to anything. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 19 2013 05:57 Taipoka wrote: As if SC2 people aren´t elitists :D "Our game is hardcore" "That game is for casuals" "Our game have older people. That game is for children". And so on I do find the discussions about SC2 vs LoL/Dota 2 to be shockingly similar to the ones about BW vs SC2. Its almost as all the same points are made and both arguments are about as pointless. | ||
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Phyanketto
United States505 Posts
On September 19 2013 06:03 lolfail9001 wrote: SC2 is hardcore compared to MOBAs. MOBAs do not bring you wrist problems nearly as fast :D. Also, SC2 is best game for kids ever: you do not need to think alot in it :3 But yes, compared to competitive BW SC2 is more casual than console shooters are compared to anything. Good analogy. SC2 is the CoD to BW's Quake/CS1.6 | ||
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Burns
United States2300 Posts
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Xuther
United States6 Posts
On September 19 2013 14:00 Burns wrote: Well, military service is killing esports Killing esports? Esports is already dead buddy. | ||
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Sotoshi
United Kingdom24 Posts
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
On September 19 2013 03:38 Cheren wrote: SC2 is in a weird spot because it's the only RTS with a tournament circuit. So a lot of people who play/watch SC2 actually like the game, but a vocal minority hates it and only sticks around because there's nowhere else to go RTS-wise. One of the funniest statement. You should apply to blizzard. | ||
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Taipoka
Brazil1224 Posts
On September 19 2013 06:07 Plansix wrote: I do find the discussions about SC2 vs LoL/Dota 2 to be shockingly similar to the ones about BW vs SC2. Its almost as all the same points are made and both arguments are about as pointless. Nice point. Its all of the same. | ||
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saddaromma
1129 Posts
On September 19 2013 06:07 Plansix wrote: I do find the discussions about SC2 vs LoL/Dota 2 to be shockingly similar to the ones about BW vs SC2. Its almost as all the same points are made and both arguments are about as pointless. I don't think so. SC2 vs BW. People were shitting on SC2. LoL/Dota vs SC2. People are still shitting on SC2, though LoL gets some too. | ||
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theMagus
578 Posts
goodluck to the both of them! | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40186 Posts
On September 19 2013 19:48 saddaromma wrote: I don't think so. SC2 vs BW. People were shitting on SC2. LoL/Dota vs SC2. People are still shitting on SC2, though LoL gets some too. You mean The guys who like BW and it's korean scene shit on SC2, the guys who like SC2 are fine with BW (it's a different game, and good one too!). They guys who like MOBAs do not give a hell about SC2 (after all they are playing The Casual Trend) and SC2 fans are butthurt. After all the only thing similar about those arguments that are actually pointless. | ||
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saddaromma
1129 Posts
On September 19 2013 21:11 lolfail9001 wrote: You mean The guys who like BW and it's korean scene shit on SC2, the guys who like SC2 are fine with BW (it's a different game, and good one too!). They guys who like MOBAs do not give a hell about SC2 (after all they are playing The Casual Trend) and SC2 fans are butthurt. After all the only thing similar about those arguments that are actually pointless. what arguments are you refering to? | ||
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Taipoka
Brazil1224 Posts
This game is harder than that game. This game is for children that is for adults. This game is for casuals, that is for hardcore. This game needs more mechanics than that game. ... All pointless. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 20 2013 02:47 Taipoka wrote: This game is harder than that game. This game is for children that is for adults. This game is for casuals, that is for hardcore. This game needs more mechanics than that game. ... All pointless. The endless argument that "My game is better than your game. Its FACT. Let me tell you all the reasons it is FACT and then cite some reasons why your game is targeted a casuals(AKA, people who don't play my game because they aren't hard enough)." The endless and pointless discussion from people trying to shit on others good time. Cause its the internet. | ||
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saddaromma
1129 Posts
On September 20 2013 02:47 Taipoka wrote: This game is harder than that game. This game is for children that is for adults. This game is for casuals, that is for hardcore. This game needs more mechanics than that game. ... All pointless. These were the major points of BW fans when SC2 came out. But they're kinda rare now. | ||
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fireforce7
United States334 Posts
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QuackPocketDuck
410 Posts
Best of luck anyways | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On September 20 2013 11:00 QuackPocketDuck wrote: To study English? I thought being part of an international community is best way to learn quickly anyway, rather than actually learning of tutors / classes. Koreans afraid of speaking broken English or something, there no learning a language without using it. Best of luck anyways Time issue at hands. | ||
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gobbledydook
Australia2597 Posts
MC addressed this point very well you might want to go have a look | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On September 20 2013 11:21 gobbledydook wrote: MC addressed this point very well you might want to go have a look Then again MC is from a non-Korean organization. Check out "State of Play" and see how they get ahead in competition in Star's house. | ||
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asel
Germany1598 Posts
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igay
Australia1178 Posts
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broodwar2.0
Niue229 Posts
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Fisherr
2 Posts
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