I know this is a touchy thing on these forums, to talk about balance, but after David Kim's assertion that Hydralisks with speed are the most successful HotS unit, I feel it is worth discussing.
Hydralisks have been notorious since the release of WOL for just not being a unit worth using. If I had to pick an epitome game, I would point all the way back to Idra vs MC game 6 at MLG way back in 2011.
The last fight comes down to almost pure hydralisk (with an upgrade advantage) vs pure stalker, and the stalkers win. This is great because you don't have to deal with any nonsense about splash damage, bad engagements (idra had the concave on MCs army) or anything else other than the fact that Hydras can't kill Stalkers straight up. I guess you could point to the DT in the hydra lines and the corruptors overhead, but you could also point to the infestors and fungals. This is as close to a pure Hydra vs pure Stalker fight that you will ever see at this level of play. As far as I'm concerned, this single fight proves that every argument about Hydras being great vs gateway units and Protoss needing splash to deal with them is a fallacy. Hydras just plain suck, even in their best situations.
While I think this is an important upgrade to the utility of the Hydralisk, it still doesn't address the problem: Hydralisks can't win fights for one glaringly huge reason. They can't take a hit worth a damn!
Sadly, while I think this is the biggest problem for the Hydralisk, I don't think it is the ONLY problem for the hydralisk.
Also important is the tech required to make Hydralisks a viable pick. To save typing out the wall of text, we will just say that a Zerg player must invest 400 minerals, 400 gas, 220 seconds, and a drone before having a functional unit. This does not contribute to the overall success and flexibility of the race, the ONLY thing you gain for all this investment is the Hydralisk.
I had made a blog post to rant about this the other night after having a bad gaming session where Hydras failed me over and over, but the more I think about it, the more I feel it is an important issue that is worth being legitimately discussed. I don't buy David Kims statement. I feel like Widow Mines, Hellbats, and Void Rays have all had much more impact on the way the game is played today than Hydralisks. While the unit is somewhat functional, it is still not a tech I ever want to pursue or feel good about when using. It is a crutch I am force to lean on, and a rickety one at that, and yet Zerg is more reliant on the Hydralisk than ever before, especially in ZvP.
I know I'm not the only one who feels this way, what can we, as players, do about it?
Well I think the problem is as you mention as Zerg you have very few options when you scout an air based composition, and often your only realistic option is that hydra den. I was pretty disapointed to find out that zerg got no new anti-air options in hots. Spores are nice but you really want something that is a little less static. For example the standard response against quick phoenix in ZvP is 1-2 spores in each base, yet the phoneix are able to constatly snipe drones and unless they mess up they will not lose a single phoenix to the spores. infested terrans and fungals were nerfed a while back, and i think something can be done to those abilities for example give IT upgrades back.
ironically the race with the best and most accesible anti air (terran) got an awesome tool against air (wm). wish zerg had gotten something like that instead.
On August 02 2013 01:23 Durmaz21 wrote: Well I think the problem is as you mention as Zerg you have very few options when you scout an air based composition, and often your only realistic option is that hydra den. I was pretty disapointed to find out that zerg got no new anti-air options in hots. Spores are nice but you really want something that is a little less static. For example the standard response against quick phoenix in ZvP is 1-2 spores in each base, yet the phoneix are able to constatly snipe drones and unless they mess up they will not lose a single phoenix to the spores. infested terrans and fungals were nerfed a while back, and i think something can be done to those abilities for example give IT upgrades back.
ironically the race with the best and most accesible anti air (terran) got an awesome tool against air (wm). wish zerg had gotten something like that instead.
And I thought the response to Phoenix was to take a fourth and hold down the 'D' key
On August 02 2013 01:26 aka_star wrote: Marines beat hydra straight up lol
instant fire > missle attack
If I am not mistaken, a marine takes up less space than a hydra so more marines can shoot and also if I am not mistaken marines scales better with uppgrades. Also medivacs are good
On August 02 2013 01:24 K3Nyy wrote: Hydralisks are good. We've watched so many games lately where they're essential in PvZ.
Linking a game where Idra had the smaller army, a terrible concave and supply invested in drones and Corrupters in 2011 doesn't mean that they're bad.
I agree that they are incredibly essential in PvZ lately, but as a Zerg player, I never feel they're good. Any fight where you would say they "SHOULD" win tends to go 50/50 IMO. Void Rays beat them often enough that it doesn't feel like a solid win to be using hydra tech vs them, but what else do I have? Gateway units, especially Zealots, seem to tear Hydras apart if you give them a chance, and then there is all the AoE on top of that. When Hydras are countered so hard by things like Archons, Templar, and Colossi, why are they so mediocre against the things they're supposed to be good against?
As far as the quality of Idras play in that game, I think you can see his mentality is shot, but that's not the point, the point is WE ARE TOLD HYDRAS ARE SOOOO GOOD VS STALKERS, and clearly, they are not.
On August 02 2013 01:23 Durmaz21 wrote: Well I think the problem is as you mention as Zerg you have very few options when you scout an air based composition, and often your only realistic option is that hydra den. I was pretty disapointed to find out that zerg got no new anti-air options in hots. Spores are nice but you really want something that is a little less static. For example the standard response against quick phoenix in ZvP is 1-2 spores in each base, yet the phoneix are able to constatly snipe drones and unless they mess up they will not lose a single phoenix to the spores. infested terrans and fungals were nerfed a while back, and i think something can be done to those abilities for example give IT upgrades back.
ironically the race with the best and most accesible anti air (terran) got an awesome tool against air (wm). wish zerg had gotten something like that instead.
And I thought the response to Phoenix was to take a fourth and hold down the 'D' key
well im talking about how to counter the phoenix, obviously yeah you usually feel pretty safe droning up and expanding but the point here being that the only reasonable defense against early phoenix are spores
I feel like hydras are still very good. For example in ZvP there is a timing window where once hydras pop out if you go attack with your roach hydra army you should win. But the biggest problem in my opinion is not the fact of the Hydra at all I personally think it is that Zerg does not have enough answers when scouting air based play (specifically Protoss)
On August 02 2013 01:16 Jermstuddog wrote: I know this is a touchy thing on these forums, to talk about balance, but after David Kim's assertion that Hydralisks with speed are the most successful HotS unit, I feel it is worth discussing.
Hydralisks have been notorious since the release of WOL for just not being a unit worth using. If I had to pick an epitome game, I would point all the way back to Idra vs MC game 6 at MLG way back in 2011.
The last fight comes down to almost pure hydralisk (with an upgrade advantage) vs pure stalker, and the stalkers win. This is great because you don't have to deal with any nonsense about splash damage, bad engagements (idra had the concave on MCs army) or anything else other than the fact that Hydras can't kill Stalkers straight up. I guess you could point to the DT in the hydra lines and the corruptors overhead, but you could also point to the infestors and fungals. This is as close to a pure Hydra vs pure Stalker fight that you will ever see at this level of play. As far as I'm concerned, this single fight proves that every argument about Hydras being great vs gateway units and Protoss needing splash to deal with them is a fallacy. Hydras just plain suck, even in their best situations.
While I think this is an important upgrade to the utility of the Hydralisk, it still doesn't address the problem: Hydralisks can't win fights for one glaringly huge reason. They can't take a hit worth a damn!
Sadly, while I think this is the biggest problem for the Hydralisk, I don't think it is the ONLY problem for the hydralisk.
Also important is the tech required to make Hydralisks a viable pick. To save typing out the wall of text, we will just say that a Zerg player must invest 400 minerals, 400 gas, 220 seconds, and a drone before having a functional unit. This does not contribute to the overall success and flexibility of the race, the ONLY thing you gain for all this investment is the Hydralisk.
I had made a blog post to rant about this the other night after having a bad gaming session where Hydras failed me over and over, but the more I think about it, the more I feel it is an important issue that is worth being legitimately discussed. I don't buy David Kims statement. I feel like Widow Mines, Hellbats, and Void Rays have all had much more impact on the way the game is played today than Hydralisks. While the unit is somewhat functional, it is still not a tech I ever want to pursue or feel good about when using. It is a crutch I am force to lean on, and a rickety one at that, and yet Zerg is more reliant on the Hydralisk than ever before, especially in ZvP.
I know I'm not the only one who feels this way, what can we, as players, do about it?
It's funny how your whole argument is based on your single unit composition not being strong enough. Any intelligent zerg knows there's a time and place for massing hydras. Any terran ball consists of 4 units (mmm+widow mine). Any protoss ball consists of at least 4 units (colossus, ht(archon), stalker zealot). And here you are crying about your pure hydra ball melting? Even in zvz you don't make pure hydras for obvious reason....
On August 02 2013 01:24 K3Nyy wrote: Hydralisks are good. We've watched so many games lately where they're essential in PvZ.
Linking a game where Idra had the smaller army, a terrible concave and supply invested in drones and Corrupters in 2011 doesn't mean that they're bad.
I agree that they are incredibly essential in PvZ lately, but as a Zerg player, I never feel they're good. Any fight where you would say they "SHOULD" win tends to go 50/50 IMO. Void Rays beat them often enough that it doesn't feel like a solid win to be using hydra tech vs them, but what else do I have? Gateway units, especially Zealots, seem to tear Hydras apart if you give them a chance, and then there is all the AoE on top of that. When Hydras are countered so hard by things like Archons, Templar, and Colossi, why are they so mediocre against the things they're supposed to be good against?
As far as the quality of Idras play in that game, I think you can see his mentality is shot, but that's not the point, the point is WE ARE TOLD HYDRAS ARE SOOOO GOOD VS STALKERS, and clearly, they are not.
Do you go pure hydra or something? You do realize zerg has units other than hydra, right? Get some lings/roaches to tank (maybe even ultras) = effective army.
Just a question, what league are you? And why link a vod that was 2 years ago when hydras were actually shit and no one used them?
Hydralisks are an easily massable unit that deals high dps to anything on land or ground, and with upgrades it has good speed and range to boot.
That sort of unit can easily be made way too strong, such that players will simply build it en masse. Units have to have drawbacks, and if you buff Hydra health and reduce cost, then it really doesn't have many. It's no different from saying "Stalkers aren't cost efficient and do crap dps for cost, lets buff them"--it's a dumb idea, because those sort of all purpose units need to have importance weaknesses and cost inefficiencies or the matchup will come to revolve around them.
Hydra is a good unit, but has a limited shelf life after which its a waste of supply and gas.
When you add up the time to get to Lair and then the two upgrades unless you go dual Hydralisk Den's ( never seen this in SC2 yet btw ), the window to use it is small. Verses Terran stimmed 2/2 Bio mangles them along with Roaches, and v Protoss Colossus or storm disintegrate them.
At least Muta or Infesters have a roll later in the game which is i guess the reason few Zergs go for them unless its a timing attack.
Still see them in ZvZ pretty regularly i suppose, its a shame when you consider it was such an important unit in BW
Wasn't there a whine thread about the Hydra's HP/cost ration earlier today already? What is it with Zerg, it's not like you are suffering at all to need a buff right now o.O Hydralisks are no core unit, with that much I agree, but they fulfill plenty of roles in your army. They are fine, really.
EPT
