On July 30 2013 23:24 Wombat_NI wrote: Biscuit laying it down, good stuff.
@I agree with your sentiment that females are judged as a group, males as individuals like you say. However, I do see the worst elements of the scene being held up as representative of 'gamers', which I guess is reasonably comparable.
Yeah, but that "worse element of the scene being held up as representative of gamers" is done by people outside the gamer community, much like a lot of the notions about women in gaming is held by people outside of the female community.
Yeah a pretty reasonable assessment. That said, Destiny did face some censure, at least ostensibly because his image was seen as negative for the industry's growth into pastures new.
The censure came with a huge backlash if I recall.
He attacked a woman, when it got out that he did there was immediate backlash from women, sponsors did not agree with it, lots of people poured in defending Destiny's attack.
But yes, when Destiny makes a fool of himself we call his shit out. However, it seems that when a woman makes a fool of herself we call out women as a whole.
In other words, when destiny decides ridicule women, we don't see that as all males in sc2 wanting to ridicule women, we see that as just destiny doing it. When a woman shows skin, the community treats it as all women showing skin.
On July 30 2013 23:24 Wombat_NI wrote: Biscuit laying it down, good stuff.
@I agree with your sentiment that females are judged as a group, males as individuals like you say. However, I do see the worst elements of the scene being held up as representative of 'gamers', which I guess is reasonably comparable.
Yeah, but that "worse element of the scene being held up as representative of gamers" is done by people outside the gamer community, much like a lot of the notions about women in gaming is held by people outside of the female community.
Do you realize of ridiculous that sound to lump 3.5 billions people into one 'community' ? btw: you can substitute male/female in the lst part of your sentence, and that works just as well (or poorly actually)
On July 30 2013 11:05 scDeluX wrote: In the simplest, girls simply aren't interested in competitive gaming.
Demographic for competitive RTS are probably 99% 14-25yo mens.
You tell women what they are interested in and use math to do it. You go.
He does not tell _women_ anything, he is making an observation... and 'probably 99% 14-25yo mens' is not math, it is just a wild guess.... just because there are digits in a sentence does not make it 'math'
Yeah, that obeservation is a little sexist.
Yes it is a little. and sure, many post in this thread _are_ a _lot_ sexist (from both side btw).
Just like if I said "Its simple, all women like shoes because I see a lot of them shopping for shoes and TV shows also show them shopping for shoes".
Yep, that is the problem, when lumping people in huge categories... Then again no-one is being offended that there are a wide disparity in _average_ ownership of pair of shoes Nor I have seen argument that men don't have as many pair of shoes in average because they are detered to do so by an hostile environment in shoe shops or in the shoe industry...
Or better yet, play the game I like to play when I want to know if a comment is sexist. Replace the word "Women" or "Girls" with "Black people" and then tell me if you would feel comfortable saying that phrase out loud, in public. If the answer is "holy shit that sounds super racist", the comment is likely pretty sexist.
Well, to take the OP topic... I don't see many black caster either... is that a sign that e-sport is racist ?
On July 30 2013 17:47 Opera wrote: From what I read, a women can not appear on stream without getting messages which have nothing to do with the game or the content they are providing to the viewers.
Let me use a cultural reference that as a French you should get (although this may be getting a bit too old of a reference... ) "Oh Patriiiiick...." iow, based on that position, Patrick Bruel should have been discouraged from having a singing career due to a _lot_ of attention from the opposite sex, unrelated to his singing talent (or lack thereof).
maybe I should quote the wisdom of these days : :-) Allo ? Allo, t'es une fille et t'as pas de shampoing ?"
Evitons le français, et évitons d'essayer de deviner l'âge des autres
The difference is that Patrick Bruel got the attention he chose to look for. Female streamers get sexual harassment. One based his career on the attention he got from teenage girls (just like any boys band), the others are just trying to share some game content with the community.
On July 30 2013 07:23 Nerski wrote: The simple answer to this...there hasn't been a lot of female commentators who managed to build a huge audience allowing them to be wanted by events to cast.
Some math for you that's really easy to understand so you get the why better.
If your options for say MLG....Sean, who has a following of will say based even half of twitter followers a good 50k+ fans. Your other option is random female X who has maybe tried to build a following but has maybe 10k fans.
Considering your sponsorship #'s & opportunities are largely dictated by eyeballs who are you going to choose?
When more females draw those kinds of followings leagues will gladly feature them.
It's the same kind of math that leads to personalities tending to get paid more in esports then the players. # of eyeballs you draw = money in your pocket.
As comparison. A female sc2 personality and caster Livinpink has almost 8600 followers. Nathanias(an excellent caster in my opinion) has less than half that at under 4000. Axeltoss has 5000. SNM has just under 1000. Consider that there might be more to being a caster than having a lot of twitter followers.
To be fair I didn't come right out and say they'd have to have the ability to commentate as well. Meaning an in depth knowledge of the game, ability to speak, ability to work well with other people etc.
There are also in fairness other factors like, do you expect to get paid?
It will still hold true that there is very very few commentators who were both female, and possessed the right abilities. Then in addition to that built a following on a level that guarantees a league the level eyeballs they want.
If there was a female version of Sean, or Dan/Nick/Marcus out there I 100% guarantee you she'd be getting gigs. Fact of the matter is there isn't yet or we'd already see her. Until there is we simply are going to see less females in the industry commentating.
Example of a female who fit the above I forget her name but there is a female COD commentator doing quite well for herself last I checked.
On July 30 2013 07:23 Nerski wrote: The simple answer to this...there hasn't been a lot of female commentators who managed to build a huge audience allowing them to be wanted by events to cast.
Some math for you that's really easy to understand so you get the why better.
If your options for say MLG....Sean, who has a following of will say based even half of twitter followers a good 50k+ fans. Your other option is random female X who has maybe tried to build a following but has maybe 10k fans.
Considering your sponsorship #'s & opportunities are largely dictated by eyeballs who are you going to choose?
When more females draw those kinds of followings leagues will gladly feature them.
It's the same kind of math that leads to personalities tending to get paid more in esports then the players. # of eyeballs you draw = money in your pocket.
As comparison. A female sc2 personality and caster Livinpink has almost 8600 followers. Nathanias(an excellent caster in my opinion) has less than half that at under 4000. Axeltoss has 5000. SNM has just under 1000. Consider that there might be more to being a caster than having a lot of twitter followers.
To be fair I didn't come right out and say they'd have to have the ability to commentate as well. Meaning an in depth knowledge of the game, ability to speak, ability to work well with other people etc.
There are also in fairness other factors like, do you expect to get paid?
It will still hold true that there is very very few commentators who were both female, and possessed the right abilities. Then in addition to that built a following on a level that guarantees a league the level eyeballs they want.
If there was a female version of Sean, or Dan/Nick/Marcus out there I 100% guarantee you she'd be getting gigs. Fact of the matter is there isn't yet or we'd already see her. Until there is we simply are going to see less females in the industry commentating.
Example of a female who fit the above I forget her name but there is a female COD commentator doing quite well for herself last I checked.
No I think you have it backwards. Day9, DJWheat, Apollo are not successful casters because they are popular. They are popular (in social media metrics) because they are successful Casters/esports personalities.
Edit: reread your post, and we are apparently saying pretty much the same thing.
On July 31 2013 01:19 Opera wrote: Evitons le français, et évitons d'essayer de deviner l'âge des autres
sorry, I was not trying to guess your age, I just realized, as I was typing, that my cultural reference was getting a big aged, and _may_ not be picked-up (that is also why I spelled out his name later :-)
The difference is that Patrick Bruel got the attention he chose to look for. Female streamers get sexual harassment. One based his career on the attention he got from teenage girls (just like any boys band), the others are just trying to share some game content with the community.
Well, 'the community' comprise a sizeable number of teenage boys. Should they know better than saying 'nice tits' as an introductory sentence to a stranger... sure. Then again, sex and nudity is such a taboo in the US that it is not that surprizing to see so many ill-adjusted teens. (I do not usually follow twitter chat or reddit, neither in english nor in french, so maybe this is just as bad in french chat... and I'm too old to have first hand knowledge on teen-chat behavior, since chat did not exist when I was a teen, nor did ISP for that matter :-)
The point being that such part of your audience also come with the territory. Just as Patrick Bruel teenage girls fanbase.. I don't think that Patrick Bruel could have avoided it, even if he had chosen too, short of not being a singer at all.
Also, boys/girls bands are incredibly sexists.
yes they are indeed... but that is not to say that they are evil and should be banned from the world. There are _plenty_ of entertainment form that I find anywhere from disgusting to indifferent... but to each its own. thankfully no one forced me to go to a Patrick Bruel concert, or to a Spice Grils one either for that mattter :-).
yes they are indeed... but that is not to say that they are evil and should be banned from the world. There are _plenty_ of entertainment form that I find anywhere from disgusting to indifferent... but to each its own. thankfully no one forced me to go to a Patrick Bruel concert, or to a Spice Grils one either for that mattter :-).
Yes it is. At least in the form they always existed. If there was a band which was incredibly racist or antisemitic there would be pitchforks everywhere and they would be banned form performing anywhere (just look at what happened with Dieudonné). I know it's hard to proceed because of the world we live in, especially as a male, but sexism is as bad as racism. Sexism is not just sexual harassment or kitchen jokes, just as racism is not just KKK or nazism.
Given the audience's casting requirements and complaints, the things that are often looked for:
- play by play - analysis
In many ways it feels like a no-win situation, because people tend to demand at the minimum, Master-league level analysis, and as for play-by-play, they don't want someone to just read what's off of the screen. So you can see the barrier to entry alone is fairly high(whether it be for men or women).
While you don't necessarily need Masters-league knowledge to convey play-by-play action, care also needs to be taken to not be overly critical just because the player misses his inject by 2 seconds or overly harp on this or that. Some of the better casters make a point to showcase the pro's ability.
I do believe the focus should be on the game and not on the individual. GOMTV went through a great deal of different casters back in 2011 like a trial period so I kind of liked that.
So in short it's not about whether you're a man or woman. It's about being well-suited for the job.
On July 30 2013 18:29 AxUU wrote:Yeah but man, even though I know and realize that there are women out there just to play the damn game, I've seen female streamers who stream their face in a big picture and have the game in a little picture in the bottom left corner of the stream. That's something I'd definitely call whoring for attention.
So they have their face on their stream? I think you'll find most streamers do this, and these ones being female has nothing to do with it.
You make it sound like girls shouldn't show their webcams in public, like some ridiculous middle east tradition where they don't let women do anything.
You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face.
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens way too much and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that. Whether or not this is due to societal pressures or not, that's up to you to decide. However, don't pretend that the SC2 community is driving females away; it's not.
On July 30 2013 18:29 AxUU wrote:Yeah but man, even though I know and realize that there are women out there just to play the damn game, I've seen female streamers who stream their face in a big picture and have the game in a little picture in the bottom left corner of the stream. That's something I'd definitely call whoring for attention.
So they have their face on their stream? I think you'll find most streamers do this, and these ones being female has nothing to do with it.
You make it sound like girls shouldn't show their webcams in public, like some ridiculous middle east tradition where they don't let women do anything.
You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face.
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens way too much and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
So wait, if one female SC2 play is doing that, it justifies critiquing all of them on using sex appeal to hook viewer? We can't treat them a separate people, on a case by case basis? Or are all females the same and using the same tricks to hook viewers?
Also, I don't many women who are not competitive on some level and anything claims otherwise are just made up. I have deal with the some fierce female competitors in all walks of life, so I don’t really know where that stereotype comes from or why people keep claiming its true.
On July 31 2013 03:02 superstartran wrote: Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop.
Until dum dum males stop falling for it you mean. Dudes need to start looking in the mirror if they want the answers to some of these questions.
On July 30 2013 18:29 AxUU wrote:Yeah but man, even though I know and realize that there are women out there just to play the damn game, I've seen female streamers who stream their face in a big picture and have the game in a little picture in the bottom left corner of the stream. That's something I'd definitely call whoring for attention.
So they have their face on their stream? I think you'll find most streamers do this, and these ones being female has nothing to do with it.
You make it sound like girls shouldn't show their webcams in public, like some ridiculous middle east tradition where they don't let women do anything.
You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face.
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens far more often and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
Did you really attempt to refute that statement by pointing out that Mia Rose shows her chest and hence that means that all women shows their chest?
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified.
What Mia Rose does is what she herself does, it isn't what the female community does. Much like Destiny being a dick is what Destiny does, not what the entire male community does.
You can't say "Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop" just because Mia Rose does it.
Nor can you say that
you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified
and then conclude that
gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
When the only person giving that female caster a bad name is the person who thinks the criticism is justified.
And just how exactly is it white knighting to talk about incontrol and Destiny? People like you keep throwing that word around whenever you come into threads like this but how exactly is it white knighting to say that when people make fun of incontrol's weight, they don't project it to all male gamers and just incrontrol?
On July 30 2013 18:29 AxUU wrote:Yeah but man, even though I know and realize that there are women out there just to play the damn game, I've seen female streamers who stream their face in a big picture and have the game in a little picture in the bottom left corner of the stream. That's something I'd definitely call whoring for attention.
So they have their face on their stream? I think you'll find most streamers do this, and these ones being female has nothing to do with it.
You make it sound like girls shouldn't show their webcams in public, like some ridiculous middle east tradition where they don't let women do anything.
You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face.
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens way too much and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
So wait, if one female SC2 play is doing that, it justifies critiquing all of them on using sex appeal to hook viewer? We can't treat them a separate people, on a case by case basis? Or are all females the same and using the same tricks to hook viewers?
Also, I don't many women who are not competitive on some level and anything claims otherwise are just made up. I have deal with the some fierce female competitors in all walks of life, so I don’t really know where that stereotype comes from or why people keep claiming its true.
It's not one female player; it's multiple female personalities/players that far outnumber the ones that produce actual quality content. A vast majority of female personalities on twitch are streaming not because they enjoy streaming; they just enjoy attention. The females that try to simply stream and go based on their talents are few and far in between, so stop pretending like it's not an issue. I'll make a bet with you, for every 'non sex based' female channel you can find, I can find 3 other channels that are using sex appeal.
And read the fucking studies. Women generally do not like competitive environments. Those studies were done in a non-gender biased way. So stop spouting your nonsense and come up with some evidence for once.
On July 30 2013 18:29 AxUU wrote:Yeah but man, even though I know and realize that there are women out there just to play the damn game, I've seen female streamers who stream their face in a big picture and have the game in a little picture in the bottom left corner of the stream. That's something I'd definitely call whoring for attention.
So they have their face on their stream? I think you'll find most streamers do this, and these ones being female has nothing to do with it.
You make it sound like girls shouldn't show their webcams in public, like some ridiculous middle east tradition where they don't let women do anything.
You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face.
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens far more often and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
Did you really attempt to refute that statement by pointing out that Mia Rose shows her chest and hence that means that all women shows their chest?
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified.
What Mia Rose does is what she herself does, it isn't what the female community does. Much like Destiny being a dick is what Destiny does, not what the entire male community does.
You can't say "Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop" just because Mia Rose does it.
gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
When the only person giving that female caster a bad name is the person who thinks the criticism is justified.
And just how exactly is it white knighting to talk about incontrol and Destiny? People like you keep throwing that word around whenever you come into threads like this but how exactly is it white knighting to say that when people make fun of incontrol's weight, they don't project it to all male gamers and just incrontrol?
1) A vast majority of females have done nothing but attention whore and or use their gender to steal money/used it to their own advantage. This is not something I made up; a vast majority of female personalities have commented on this already through their own video blogs. Want proof? Here you go.
2) People project Incontrol's 'fatness' all the time on the rest of the SC2 community, as well as Destiny's immaturity. Stop pretending that this is an exclusive 'female hate fest' when it's not. This is a 'stop bitching about a non-existent problem.'
3) Go onto Twitch, look up every female streamer. Tell me how many use sex appeal vs not using sex appeal. I can almost guarantee sex appeal out numbers non-sex appeal 3:1.
You're white knighting because you're bitching about a non-existent problem. In fact, it's almost an advantage to be a female in the SC2 community/gaming community in general, simply because you're going to get way more attention.
i somewhere heared, that women casters are not wanted that much, because of that one study that says, that men aren't really good at listening to high pitched voices ( women voices ) and sometimes even find them annoying.
So they have their face on their stream? I think you'll find most streamers do this, and these ones being female has nothing to do with it.
You make it sound like girls shouldn't show their webcams in public, like some ridiculous middle east tradition where they don't let women do anything.
You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face.
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens way too much and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
So wait, if one female SC2 play is doing that, it justifies critiquing all of them on using sex appeal to hook viewer? We can't treat them a separate people, on a case by case basis? Or are all females the same and using the same tricks to hook viewers?
Also, I don't many women who are not competitive on some level and anything claims otherwise are just made up. I have deal with the some fierce female competitors in all walks of life, so I don’t really know where that stereotype comes from or why people keep claiming its true.
It's not one female player; it's multiple female personalities/players that far outnumber the ones that produce actual quality content. A vast majority of female personalities on twitch are streaming not because they enjoy streaming; they just enjoy attention. The females that try to simply stream and go based on their talents are few and far in between, so stop pretending like it's not an issue. I'll make a bet with you, for every 'non sex based' female channel you can find, I can find 3 other channels that are using sex appeal.
And read the fucking studies. Women generally do not like competitive environments. Those studies were done in a non-gender biased way. So stop spouting your nonsense and come up with some evidence for once.
So they have their face on their stream? I think you'll find most streamers do this, and these ones being female has nothing to do with it.
You make it sound like girls shouldn't show their webcams in public, like some ridiculous middle east tradition where they don't let women do anything.
You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face.
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens far more often and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
Did you really attempt to refute that statement by pointing out that Mia Rose shows her chest and hence that means that all women shows their chest?
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified.
What Mia Rose does is what she herself does, it isn't what the female community does. Much like Destiny being a dick is what Destiny does, not what the entire male community does.
You can't say "Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop" just because Mia Rose does it.
Nor can you say that
you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified
and then conclude that
gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
When the only person giving that female caster a bad name is the person who thinks the criticism is justified.
And just how exactly is it white knighting to talk about incontrol and Destiny? People like you keep throwing that word around whenever you come into threads like this but how exactly is it white knighting to say that when people make fun of incontrol's weight, they don't project it to all male gamers and just incrontrol?
1) A vast majority of females have done nothing but attention whore and or use their gender to steal money/used it to their own advantage. This is not something I made up; a vast majority of female personalities have commented on this already through their own video blogs. Want proof? Here you go.
2) People project Incontrol's 'fatness' all the time on the rest of the SC2 community, as well as Destiny's immaturity. Stop pretending that this is an exclusive 'female hate fest' when it's not. This is a 'stop bitching about a non-existent problem.'
3) Go onto Twitch, look up every female streamer. Tell me how many use sex appeal vs not using sex appeal. I can almost guarantee sex appeal out numbers non-sex appeal 3:1.
You're white knighting because you're bitching about a non-existent problem. In fact, it's almost an advantage to be a female in the SC2 community/gaming community in general, simply because you're going to get way more attention.
Did you read them? The only differences came about when the context of the tasks were changed, the tasks themselves remained the same. And you know what that context was? Willingness to enter tournaments. They both had similar results and had similar consistencies, but only when given the choice to enter a tournament or not is when differences became involved. Last I checked, laddering is not a fucking tournament. Neither is casting.
Since you decided to edit your piece by adding in your response to my post, I'll do the same.
Show me the thread here on TL that has reached more than 30 pages about how everyone is as fat as incontrol. You can't, because people trolling incontrol does not translate to them trolling the scene they are in. Lots of people outside of esports associate being fat with video games--but 90% of those people have no idea who incontrol is.
In fact, the only time I've seen long threads here on TL where the community associates itself with an individual is Destiny. Multiple times now people start threads defending destiny's attacks on women and people of color as normal things to do. They get most upset when it is suggested that treating women like he treated them is punished by sponsors.
You see, a large community here on TL does something very consistently. They defend men who make fun of women, and then they post studies they didn't actually read to try to "prove" that women are inferior.
You posted three Stanford studies that showed women being as successful as men at performing tasks but being less willing to play a role they're socially expected not to perform. They didn't "hold back" because they're bad at competition, those studies showed that the only held back when the tasks they are asked to perform were relabeled.
When the only thing messing you up is the label of a product/activity and not the activity itself--that shows cultural bias.
So they have their face on their stream? I think you'll find most streamers do this, and these ones being female has nothing to do with it.
You make it sound like girls shouldn't show their webcams in public, like some ridiculous middle east tradition where they don't let women do anything.
You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face.
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens way too much and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
So wait, if one female SC2 play is doing that, it justifies critiquing all of them on using sex appeal to hook viewer? We can't treat them a separate people, on a case by case basis? Or are all females the same and using the same tricks to hook viewers?
Also, I don't many women who are not competitive on some level and anything claims otherwise are just made up. I have deal with the some fierce female competitors in all walks of life, so I don’t really know where that stereotype comes from or why people keep claiming its true.
It's not one female player; it's multiple female personalities/players that far outnumber the ones that produce actual quality content. A vast majority of female personalities on twitch are streaming not because they enjoy streaming; they just enjoy attention. The females that try to simply stream and go based on their talents are few and far in between, so stop pretending like it's not an issue. I'll make a bet with you, for every 'non sex based' female channel you can find, I can find 3 other channels that are using sex appeal.
And read the fucking studies. Women generally do not like competitive environments. Those studies were done in a non-gender biased way. So stop spouting your nonsense and come up with some evidence for once.
So they have their face on their stream? I think you'll find most streamers do this, and these ones being female has nothing to do with it.
You make it sound like girls shouldn't show their webcams in public, like some ridiculous middle east tradition where they don't let women do anything.
You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face.
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens far more often and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
Did you really attempt to refute that statement by pointing out that Mia Rose shows her chest and hence that means that all women shows their chest?
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified.
What Mia Rose does is what she herself does, it isn't what the female community does. Much like Destiny being a dick is what Destiny does, not what the entire male community does.
You can't say "Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop" just because Mia Rose does it.
Nor can you say that
you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified
and then conclude that
gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
When the only person giving that female caster a bad name is the person who thinks the criticism is justified.
And just how exactly is it white knighting to talk about incontrol and Destiny? People like you keep throwing that word around whenever you come into threads like this but how exactly is it white knighting to say that when people make fun of incontrol's weight, they don't project it to all male gamers and just incrontrol?
1) A vast majority of females have done nothing but attention whore and or use their gender to steal money/used it to their own advantage. This is not something I made up; a vast majority of female personalities have commented on this already through their own video blogs. Want proof? Here you go.
2) People project Incontrol's 'fatness' all the time on the rest of the SC2 community, as well as Destiny's immaturity. Stop pretending that this is an exclusive 'female hate fest' when it's not. This is a 'stop bitching about a non-existent problem.'
3) Go onto Twitch, look up every female streamer. Tell me how many use sex appeal vs not using sex appeal. I can almost guarantee sex appeal out numbers non-sex appeal 3:1.
You're white knighting because you're bitching about a non-existent problem. In fact, it's almost an advantage to be a female in the SC2 community/gaming community in general, simply because you're going to get way more attention.
Stand back folks, this guy is going to tell us why women stream. He has checked in with all of them and has confirmed the majority do not like games, but love to be looked at over the internet. Nothing like a young man telling us exactly how women work. I need this information because living with one isn't enough for me.
And lets get this quote out there right now:
A vast majority of females have done nothing but attention whore and or use their gender to steal money/used it to their own advantage.
Let us just remember that this post was in response: "Why can't we just take each female stream and caster on a case by case basis and treat them all like seperate people?" Clearly someone doesn't want to do that.
On July 30 2013 22:25 Plansix wrote: [quote] You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face.
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens way too much and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
So wait, if one female SC2 play is doing that, it justifies critiquing all of them on using sex appeal to hook viewer? We can't treat them a separate people, on a case by case basis? Or are all females the same and using the same tricks to hook viewers?
Also, I don't many women who are not competitive on some level and anything claims otherwise are just made up. I have deal with the some fierce female competitors in all walks of life, so I don’t really know where that stereotype comes from or why people keep claiming its true.
It's not one female player; it's multiple female personalities/players that far outnumber the ones that produce actual quality content. A vast majority of female personalities on twitch are streaming not because they enjoy streaming; they just enjoy attention. The females that try to simply stream and go based on their talents are few and far in between, so stop pretending like it's not an issue. I'll make a bet with you, for every 'non sex based' female channel you can find, I can find 3 other channels that are using sex appeal.
And read the fucking studies. Women generally do not like competitive environments. Those studies were done in a non-gender biased way. So stop spouting your nonsense and come up with some evidence for once.
On July 31 2013 03:26 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 31 2013 03:02 superstartran wrote:
On July 30 2013 23:13 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 30 2013 23:00 Plansix wrote:
On July 30 2013 22:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 30 2013 22:44 Plansix wrote:
On July 30 2013 22:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 30 2013 22:25 Plansix wrote: [quote] You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face.
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens far more often and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
Did you really attempt to refute that statement by pointing out that Mia Rose shows her chest and hence that means that all women shows their chest?
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified.
What Mia Rose does is what she herself does, it isn't what the female community does. Much like Destiny being a dick is what Destiny does, not what the entire male community does.
You can't say "Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop" just because Mia Rose does it.
Nor can you say that
you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified
and then conclude that
gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
When the only person giving that female caster a bad name is the person who thinks the criticism is justified.
And just how exactly is it white knighting to talk about incontrol and Destiny? People like you keep throwing that word around whenever you come into threads like this but how exactly is it white knighting to say that when people make fun of incontrol's weight, they don't project it to all male gamers and just incrontrol?
1) A vast majority of females have done nothing but attention whore and or use their gender to steal money/used it to their own advantage. This is not something I made up; a vast majority of female personalities have commented on this already through their own video blogs. Want proof? Here you go.
2) People project Incontrol's 'fatness' all the time on the rest of the SC2 community, as well as Destiny's immaturity. Stop pretending that this is an exclusive 'female hate fest' when it's not. This is a 'stop bitching about a non-existent problem.'
3) Go onto Twitch, look up every female streamer. Tell me how many use sex appeal vs not using sex appeal. I can almost guarantee sex appeal out numbers non-sex appeal 3:1.
You're white knighting because you're bitching about a non-existent problem. In fact, it's almost an advantage to be a female in the SC2 community/gaming community in general, simply because you're going to get way more attention.
Did you read them? The only differences came about when the context of the tasks were changed, the tasks themselves remained the same. And you know what that context was? Willingness to enter tournaments. They both had similar results and had similar consistencies, but only when given the choice to enter a tournament or not is when differences became involved. Last I checked, laddering is not a fucking tournament. Neither is casting.
You clearly read the top lines of the studies and that's it.
Men perform signicantly higher in mixed tournaments than under both noncompetitive incentive schemes, the piece rate and the random pay. The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test that compares performance of men in mixed tournaments with the piece rate is 0.001, while for the comparison to the random pay treatment it is 0.006.
In a mixed tournament situation, men perform significantly higher than the women did. That's exactly the same situation that you have in the caster/pro gamer/etc. world. Men and women in the same setting, competing against each other for tournament winnings, job positions, etc.
Every single study will tell you that men perform significantly higher when there is an incentive to perform. Women generally do not, especially in a mixed gender situation.
On July 30 2013 22:25 Plansix wrote: [quote] You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face.
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens way too much and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
So wait, if one female SC2 play is doing that, it justifies critiquing all of them on using sex appeal to hook viewer? We can't treat them a separate people, on a case by case basis? Or are all females the same and using the same tricks to hook viewers?
Also, I don't many women who are not competitive on some level and anything claims otherwise are just made up. I have deal with the some fierce female competitors in all walks of life, so I don’t really know where that stereotype comes from or why people keep claiming its true.
It's not one female player; it's multiple female personalities/players that far outnumber the ones that produce actual quality content. A vast majority of female personalities on twitch are streaming not because they enjoy streaming; they just enjoy attention. The females that try to simply stream and go based on their talents are few and far in between, so stop pretending like it's not an issue. I'll make a bet with you, for every 'non sex based' female channel you can find, I can find 3 other channels that are using sex appeal.
And read the fucking studies. Women generally do not like competitive environments. Those studies were done in a non-gender biased way. So stop spouting your nonsense and come up with some evidence for once.
On July 31 2013 03:26 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 31 2013 03:02 superstartran wrote:
On July 30 2013 23:13 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 30 2013 23:00 Plansix wrote:
On July 30 2013 22:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 30 2013 22:44 Plansix wrote:
On July 30 2013 22:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 30 2013 22:25 Plansix wrote: [quote] You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face.
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens far more often and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
Did you really attempt to refute that statement by pointing out that Mia Rose shows her chest and hence that means that all women shows their chest?
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified.
What Mia Rose does is what she herself does, it isn't what the female community does. Much like Destiny being a dick is what Destiny does, not what the entire male community does.
You can't say "Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop" just because Mia Rose does it.
Nor can you say that
you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified
and then conclude that
gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
When the only person giving that female caster a bad name is the person who thinks the criticism is justified.
And just how exactly is it white knighting to talk about incontrol and Destiny? People like you keep throwing that word around whenever you come into threads like this but how exactly is it white knighting to say that when people make fun of incontrol's weight, they don't project it to all male gamers and just incrontrol?
1) A vast majority of females have done nothing but attention whore and or use their gender to steal money/used it to their own advantage. This is not something I made up; a vast majority of female personalities have commented on this already through their own video blogs. Want proof? Here you go.
2) People project Incontrol's 'fatness' all the time on the rest of the SC2 community, as well as Destiny's immaturity. Stop pretending that this is an exclusive 'female hate fest' when it's not. This is a 'stop bitching about a non-existent problem.'
3) Go onto Twitch, look up every female streamer. Tell me how many use sex appeal vs not using sex appeal. I can almost guarantee sex appeal out numbers non-sex appeal 3:1.
You're white knighting because you're bitching about a non-existent problem. In fact, it's almost an advantage to be a female in the SC2 community/gaming community in general, simply because you're going to get way more attention.
Stand back folks, this guy is going to tell us why women stream. He has checked in with all of them and has confirmed the majority do not like games, but love to be looked at over the internet. Nothing like a young man telling us exactly how women work. I need this information because living with one isn't enough for me.
And lets get this quote out there right now:
A vast majority of females have done nothing but attention whore and or use their gender to steal money/used it to their own advantage.
Let us just remember that this post was in response: "Why can't we just take each female stream and caster on a case by case basis and treat them all like seperate people?" Clearly someone doesn't want to do that.
Stand back guys, I quoted Tara Babcock, a female personality and all of a sudden I'm a chauvinistic pig. Did you even bother to watch the video? Nothing like the Great White Knight Plansix to come to the rescue of all these not so innocent female streamers.
On July 30 2013 22:36 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens way too much and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
So wait, if one female SC2 play is doing that, it justifies critiquing all of them on using sex appeal to hook viewer? We can't treat them a separate people, on a case by case basis? Or are all females the same and using the same tricks to hook viewers?
Also, I don't many women who are not competitive on some level and anything claims otherwise are just made up. I have deal with the some fierce female competitors in all walks of life, so I don’t really know where that stereotype comes from or why people keep claiming its true.
It's not one female player; it's multiple female personalities/players that far outnumber the ones that produce actual quality content. A vast majority of female personalities on twitch are streaming not because they enjoy streaming; they just enjoy attention. The females that try to simply stream and go based on their talents are few and far in between, so stop pretending like it's not an issue. I'll make a bet with you, for every 'non sex based' female channel you can find, I can find 3 other channels that are using sex appeal.
And read the fucking studies. Women generally do not like competitive environments. Those studies were done in a non-gender biased way. So stop spouting your nonsense and come up with some evidence for once.
On July 31 2013 03:26 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 31 2013 03:02 superstartran wrote:
On July 30 2013 23:13 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 30 2013 23:00 Plansix wrote:
On July 30 2013 22:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 30 2013 22:44 Plansix wrote:
On July 30 2013 22:36 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens far more often and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
Did you really attempt to refute that statement by pointing out that Mia Rose shows her chest and hence that means that all women shows their chest?
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified.
What Mia Rose does is what she herself does, it isn't what the female community does. Much like Destiny being a dick is what Destiny does, not what the entire male community does.
You can't say "Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop" just because Mia Rose does it.
Nor can you say that
you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified
and then conclude that
gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
When the only person giving that female caster a bad name is the person who thinks the criticism is justified.
And just how exactly is it white knighting to talk about incontrol and Destiny? People like you keep throwing that word around whenever you come into threads like this but how exactly is it white knighting to say that when people make fun of incontrol's weight, they don't project it to all male gamers and just incrontrol?
1) A vast majority of females have done nothing but attention whore and or use their gender to steal money/used it to their own advantage. This is not something I made up; a vast majority of female personalities have commented on this already through their own video blogs. Want proof? Here you go.
2) People project Incontrol's 'fatness' all the time on the rest of the SC2 community, as well as Destiny's immaturity. Stop pretending that this is an exclusive 'female hate fest' when it's not. This is a 'stop bitching about a non-existent problem.'
3) Go onto Twitch, look up every female streamer. Tell me how many use sex appeal vs not using sex appeal. I can almost guarantee sex appeal out numbers non-sex appeal 3:1.
You're white knighting because you're bitching about a non-existent problem. In fact, it's almost an advantage to be a female in the SC2 community/gaming community in general, simply because you're going to get way more attention.
Did you read them? The only differences came about when the context of the tasks were changed, the tasks themselves remained the same. And you know what that context was? Willingness to enter tournaments. They both had similar results and had similar consistencies, but only when given the choice to enter a tournament or not is when differences became involved. Last I checked, laddering is not a fucking tournament. Neither is casting.
You clearly read the top lines of the studies and that's it.
Men perform signicantly higher in mixed tournaments than under both noncompetitive incentive schemes, the piece rate and the random pay. The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test that compares performance of men in mixed tournaments with the piece rate is 0.001, while for the comparison to the random pay treatment it is 0.006.
In a mixed tournament situation, men perform significantly higher than the women did. That's exactly the same situation that you have in the caster/pro gamer/etc. world. Men and women in the same setting, competing against each other for tournament winnings, job positions, etc.
Every single study will tell you that men perform significantly higher when there is an incentive to perform. Women generally do not, especially in a mixed gender situation.
A fourth one?
Sure.
In the benchmark treatment, the pay- off to participants depends only on their own performance: each one is paid a xed piece rate for every maze solved over a period of fteen minutes. We nd no statistically signicant gender difference in performance.
The task itself is simple and does not change (navigating a maze). When put in a tournament format, the women performed similarly to when they were not in a tournament format, the men performed better in a tournament format.
In that study, the women were neither encouraged nor discouraged by the format of the activity. The men tried harder in the activity. When outside of a tournament setting, both the men and women performed equally. Hence, the only difference is that the men cared more than the women--that's it.
On July 30 2013 22:36 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens way too much and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
So wait, if one female SC2 play is doing that, it justifies critiquing all of them on using sex appeal to hook viewer? We can't treat them a separate people, on a case by case basis? Or are all females the same and using the same tricks to hook viewers?
Also, I don't many women who are not competitive on some level and anything claims otherwise are just made up. I have deal with the some fierce female competitors in all walks of life, so I don’t really know where that stereotype comes from or why people keep claiming its true.
It's not one female player; it's multiple female personalities/players that far outnumber the ones that produce actual quality content. A vast majority of female personalities on twitch are streaming not because they enjoy streaming; they just enjoy attention. The females that try to simply stream and go based on their talents are few and far in between, so stop pretending like it's not an issue. I'll make a bet with you, for every 'non sex based' female channel you can find, I can find 3 other channels that are using sex appeal.
And read the fucking studies. Women generally do not like competitive environments. Those studies were done in a non-gender biased way. So stop spouting your nonsense and come up with some evidence for once.
On July 31 2013 03:26 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 31 2013 03:02 superstartran wrote:
On July 30 2013 23:13 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 30 2013 23:00 Plansix wrote:
On July 30 2013 22:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 30 2013 22:44 Plansix wrote:
On July 30 2013 22:36 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens far more often and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
Did you really attempt to refute that statement by pointing out that Mia Rose shows her chest and hence that means that all women shows their chest?
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified.
What Mia Rose does is what she herself does, it isn't what the female community does. Much like Destiny being a dick is what Destiny does, not what the entire male community does.
You can't say "Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop" just because Mia Rose does it.
Nor can you say that
you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified
and then conclude that
gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
When the only person giving that female caster a bad name is the person who thinks the criticism is justified.
And just how exactly is it white knighting to talk about incontrol and Destiny? People like you keep throwing that word around whenever you come into threads like this but how exactly is it white knighting to say that when people make fun of incontrol's weight, they don't project it to all male gamers and just incrontrol?
1) A vast majority of females have done nothing but attention whore and or use their gender to steal money/used it to their own advantage. This is not something I made up; a vast majority of female personalities have commented on this already through their own video blogs. Want proof? Here you go.
2) People project Incontrol's 'fatness' all the time on the rest of the SC2 community, as well as Destiny's immaturity. Stop pretending that this is an exclusive 'female hate fest' when it's not. This is a 'stop bitching about a non-existent problem.'
3) Go onto Twitch, look up every female streamer. Tell me how many use sex appeal vs not using sex appeal. I can almost guarantee sex appeal out numbers non-sex appeal 3:1.
You're white knighting because you're bitching about a non-existent problem. In fact, it's almost an advantage to be a female in the SC2 community/gaming community in general, simply because you're going to get way more attention.
Did you read them? The only differences came about when the context of the tasks were changed, the tasks themselves remained the same. And you know what that context was? Willingness to enter tournaments. They both had similar results and had similar consistencies, but only when given the choice to enter a tournament or not is when differences became involved. Last I checked, laddering is not a fucking tournament. Neither is casting.
You clearly read the top lines of the studies and that's it.
Men perform signicantly higher in mixed tournaments than under both noncompetitive incentive schemes, the piece rate and the random pay. The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test that compares performance of men in mixed tournaments with the piece rate is 0.001, while for the comparison to the random pay treatment it is 0.006.
In a mixed tournament situation, men perform significantly higher than the women did. That's exactly the same situation that you have in the caster/pro gamer/etc. world. Men and women in the same setting, competing against each other for tournament winnings, job positions, etc.
Every single study will tell you that men perform significantly higher when there is an incentive to perform. Women generally do not, especially in a mixed gender situation.
And you didn't read the study either, execpt for the part that agreed with your argument.
Whether the poor performance of women relative to men in mixed gender group tournaments is a rational response or a psychological phenomenon, our results show that single-sex tournaments elicit more comparable performance from women and men. Furthermore, in our experiments, running single-sex as opposed to mixed tournaments came at no cost. The performance of the winners of single-sex tournaments is no lower than of the winners of mixed-sex tournaments (even though the winners of the single-sex tournaments are constrained to be always half women and half men).
Which points out that the negative results in mixed touraments was due to the relationship between men and women and the dip in results was not present in the same sex touranments.
Also, you forgot the section:
While the reasons for the attrition rate of women in science and engineering remain unclear, there exists mounting evidence that the women’s low feelings of condence and competence play a key role. A recent report titled “Women’s Experiences in College Engineering” [Goodman, Cunningham, and Lachapelle 2002] shows that women are not dropping out of engineering programs because of poor performance. Many women who left mentioned negative aspects of their school’s climate such as competition, lack of support, and discouraging faculty and peers. Positive perceptions of self-condence were highly associated with staying in the program, and increased with the existence of mentor programs, opportunities for networking with practicing female engineers and clubs like the society for Women Engineers. In general, condence in one’s abilities and optimism have been shown to be strongly related to academic performance [Chemers, Hu, and Garcia 2001]. Furthermore, in male-dominated graduate programs, female students show lower feelings of competence than male students show [Ulku-Steiner, Kurtz-Costes, and Kinlaw 2000].
Where the study you cite specificly states that difference in results in likely a SOCIAL ISSUES relating to their school climate and other problems that have nothing to do with genetics.
The study you cited reports that you are incorrect and points out that women are likely to be as competative as men if there are not other social conditions in place.
You might want to trying reading them before citing them next time.
EPT
