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On July 30 2013 18:29 AxUU wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 17:47 Opera wrote:On July 30 2013 17:17 Nazca wrote:
I do get the "marry me", "I'd f*ck you hard", "You got nice tits" kinda bullshit. I'm very far from being an attention whore and more than anything, I love this game and I managed to make it my job which is absolutely amazing and for which I am more than thankful. I also get the hate, because I'm "only" diamond even though I consider that my level doesn't reflect my knowledge of the game seeing how little time I have to play.
Either way, and sorry for the long post, the only thing I wanna say is : I don't give a damn what people say about me. I LOVE THIS GAME and I intend to continue doing my job no matter what people may throw at me, simply because it's not part of my DNA to give up. I'd like to get to Masters, in all three races, just to make them shut up but again, I don't have time. For the rest, I think I do a good job and I think that my promotion and the fact that I got a contract has NOTHING to do with me being a girl, and everything with how hard I work.
These are the most important two paragraphs in the whole thread, with the ZombieGrub post about women not wanting to enter a male discussion. There are the most important posts because they reflect opinions and experience of women who work their ass off for making it in eSports. From what I read, a women can not appear on stream without getting messages which have nothing to do with the game or the content they are providing to the viewers. They get this bullshit just because of the way they are born ! This is the problem, no male casters/streamer has to deal with this kind of bullshit and that's why we have to listen to their experience. It's great that some women can deal with this and still not lose their passion for the game and the community. I would. Yeah but man, even though I know and realize that there are women out there just to play the damn game, I've seen female streamers who stream their face in a big picture and have the game in a little picture in the bottom left corner of the stream. That's something I'd definitely call whoring for attention. And what makes me mad is that people actually donate to these said women who clearly have no interest whatsoever in the game and often don't even play anything and just surf the net. However if a woman has made a career out of casting/playing/whatever, good for her.
There's several male casters that don't care all that much about the game (I think you know some of the more famous ones) and they don't get shit on for whoring themselves out for a game that they don't have much interest in.
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Northern Ireland26670 Posts
On July 30 2013 22:42 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 17:52 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 30 2013 17:47 Opera wrote:On July 30 2013 17:17 Nazca wrote:
I do get the "marry me", "I'd f*ck you hard", "You got nice tits" kinda bullshit. I'm very far from being an attention whore and more than anything, I love this game and I managed to make it my job which is absolutely amazing and for which I am more than thankful. I also get the hate, because I'm "only" diamond even though I consider that my level doesn't reflect my knowledge of the game seeing how little time I have to play.
Either way, and sorry for the long post, the only thing I wanna say is : I don't give a damn what people say about me. I LOVE THIS GAME and I intend to continue doing my job no matter what people may throw at me, simply because it's not part of my DNA to give up. I'd like to get to Masters, in all three races, just to make them shut up but again, I don't have time. For the rest, I think I do a good job and I think that my promotion and the fact that I got a contract has NOTHING to do with me being a girl, and everything with how hard I work.
These are the most important two paragraphs in the whole thread, with the ZombieGrub post about women not wanting to enter a male discussion. There are the most important posts because they reflect opinions and experience of women who work their ass off for making it in eSports. From what I read, a women can not appear on stream without getting messages which have nothing to do with the game or the content they are providing to the viewers. They get this bullshit just because of the way they are born ! This is the problem, no male casters/streamer has to deal with this kind of bullshit and that's why we have to listen to their experience. It's great that some women can deal with this and still not lose their passion for the game and the community. I would. Completely false. The ONLY difference is that it's not rooted in sexual comments, but in insults of every other kind. Tbh ZombieGrub's attitude pissed me off, but she's entitled to behave as she wants without getting abuse based on her gender. Nazca's post was nice though, in that it is coming from a woman in the scene, rather than being male conjecture, so that's good. True but false. Because Female get both sexist, irrespectfull AND insults. You don't see Total Biscuit viewer say : "you are fat, you are bald, "etc.. you read :" You suck; you are not good". But not some "show me your chest/dick" something. I'm no girl, but i seen my GF appeared on stream (only voice not face) for a 2vs2 with one of the master play of her team. And chat... on twitch (it was like 6viewers). 4of 'em were like : "show face, show tits, is she hot ?" etc... And the ONLY difference (sex rooted) is everything. Would you like to be moked on your physic ? On the size of your dick EVERYTIME you stream ? No i don't think so. You would tolerate insults or comments that you are gay or something. Well it's hard to explain what i mean.
Incontrol and Desrow would like a word.
I don't particularly mind vitriol thrown my way, but equally doesn't mean that everyone will be similarly minded, nor should they have to be.
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United States6752 Posts
On July 30 2013 22:44 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 22:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 22:25 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2013 22:22 Nekovivie wrote:On July 30 2013 18:29 AxUU wrote:Yeah but man, even though I know and realize that there are women out there just to play the damn game, I've seen female streamers who stream their face in a big picture and have the game in a little picture in the bottom left corner of the stream. That's something I'd definitely call whoring for attention. So they have their face on their stream? I think you'll find most streamers do this, and these ones being female has nothing to do with it. You make it sound like girls shouldn't show their webcams in public, like some ridiculous middle east tradition where they don't let women do anything. You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face. We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)" Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way. People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
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United States6752 Posts
On July 30 2013 22:45 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 22:42 FFW_Rude wrote:On July 30 2013 17:52 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 30 2013 17:47 Opera wrote:On July 30 2013 17:17 Nazca wrote:
I do get the "marry me", "I'd f*ck you hard", "You got nice tits" kinda bullshit. I'm very far from being an attention whore and more than anything, I love this game and I managed to make it my job which is absolutely amazing and for which I am more than thankful. I also get the hate, because I'm "only" diamond even though I consider that my level doesn't reflect my knowledge of the game seeing how little time I have to play.
Either way, and sorry for the long post, the only thing I wanna say is : I don't give a damn what people say about me. I LOVE THIS GAME and I intend to continue doing my job no matter what people may throw at me, simply because it's not part of my DNA to give up. I'd like to get to Masters, in all three races, just to make them shut up but again, I don't have time. For the rest, I think I do a good job and I think that my promotion and the fact that I got a contract has NOTHING to do with me being a girl, and everything with how hard I work.
These are the most important two paragraphs in the whole thread, with the ZombieGrub post about women not wanting to enter a male discussion. There are the most important posts because they reflect opinions and experience of women who work their ass off for making it in eSports. From what I read, a women can not appear on stream without getting messages which have nothing to do with the game or the content they are providing to the viewers. They get this bullshit just because of the way they are born ! This is the problem, no male casters/streamer has to deal with this kind of bullshit and that's why we have to listen to their experience. It's great that some women can deal with this and still not lose their passion for the game and the community. I would. Completely false. The ONLY difference is that it's not rooted in sexual comments, but in insults of every other kind. Tbh ZombieGrub's attitude pissed me off, but she's entitled to behave as she wants without getting abuse based on her gender. Nazca's post was nice though, in that it is coming from a woman in the scene, rather than being male conjecture, so that's good. True but false. Because Female get both sexist, irrespectfull AND insults. You don't see Total Biscuit viewer say : "you are fat, you are bald, "etc.. you read :" You suck; you are not good". But not some "show me your chest/dick" something. I'm no girl, but i seen my GF appeared on stream (only voice not face) for a 2vs2 with one of the master play of her team. And chat... on twitch (it was like 6viewers). 4of 'em were like : "show face, show tits, is she hot ?" etc... And the ONLY difference (sex rooted) is everything. Would you like to be moked on your physic ? On the size of your dick EVERYTIME you stream ? No i don't think so. You would tolerate insults or comments that you are gay or something. Well it's hard to explain what i mean. Incontrol and Desrow would like a word. I don't particularly mind vitriol thrown my way, but equally doesn't mean that everyone will be similarly minded, nor should they have to be.
And incontrol hates it every time. Gets caught up in it almost every time.
I remember in one state of the game how he said he wanted to take a dump on a troll live on stage just to make people know that they can be held accountable.
Why? Because it is sickening that a grandmasters player gets called fat as if it matters.
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On July 30 2013 22:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 22:44 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2013 22:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 22:25 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2013 22:22 Nekovivie wrote:On July 30 2013 18:29 AxUU wrote:Yeah but man, even though I know and realize that there are women out there just to play the damn game, I've seen female streamers who stream their face in a big picture and have the game in a little picture in the bottom left corner of the stream. That's something I'd definitely call whoring for attention. So they have their face on their stream? I think you'll find most streamers do this, and these ones being female has nothing to do with it. You make it sound like girls shouldn't show their webcams in public, like some ridiculous middle east tradition where they don't let women do anything. You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face. We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)" Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way. People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular. I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body. I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed. It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
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On July 30 2013 22:32 Nekovivie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 22:25 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2013 22:22 Nekovivie wrote:On July 30 2013 18:29 AxUU wrote:Yeah but man, even though I know and realize that there are women out there just to play the damn game, I've seen female streamers who stream their face in a big picture and have the game in a little picture in the bottom left corner of the stream. That's something I'd definitely call whoring for attention. So they have their face on their stream? I think you'll find most streamers do this, and these ones being female has nothing to do with it. You make it sound like girls shouldn't show their webcams in public, like some ridiculous middle east tradition where they don't let women do anything. You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face. Surely that is more down to the audience than the individual.
no its not lol shes abusing lonely nerd virgins its abhorrent because she is trashing girl gamers names imo
http://www.twitch.tv/gemieee/c/2634288
http://www.twitch.tv/gemieee/c/2550725
im sure they watch her for her gameplay. im not sure what cosplay has to do with gaming but to me, this is basically boothbabe nonsense that appeals to the wrong side of gaming.
its hard for serious "girl gamers" casters or whatever to be taken seriously when this girl and others like her do this. you reap what you sew and girls so far (not all) are sewing the seeds of sex before talent in the gamer world. its hardly the guys fault for acting the way they do. lets also consider what the game characters look like. show me a game character (nova, kerrigan) that are not "sexy".
this topic is so over in that we who are at least intelligent enough to know that any talented girl caster will be treated equally yet im so compelled to continually put down those that think gaming is sexist when its honestly not that. its unfiltered internet and guys are horny while girls less so. if a girl is bad at something with gaming, she is gonna catch shit, if shes good she wont.
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United States6752 Posts
On July 30 2013 23:00 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 22:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 22:44 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2013 22:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 22:25 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2013 22:22 Nekovivie wrote:On July 30 2013 18:29 AxUU wrote:Yeah but man, even though I know and realize that there are women out there just to play the damn game, I've seen female streamers who stream their face in a big picture and have the game in a little picture in the bottom left corner of the stream. That's something I'd definitely call whoring for attention. So they have their face on their stream? I think you'll find most streamers do this, and these ones being female has nothing to do with it. You make it sound like girls shouldn't show their webcams in public, like some ridiculous middle east tradition where they don't let women do anything. You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face. We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)" Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way. People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular. I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body. I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed. It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line. That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
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its hard for serious "girl gamers" casters or whatever to be taken seriously when this girl and others like her do this. you reap what you sew and girls so far (not all) are sewing the seeds of sex before talent in the gamer world. its hardly the guys fault for acting the way they do. lets also consider what the game characters look like. show me a game character (nova, kerrigan) that are not "sexy".
Sew is with a needle and thread. Sow has to do with planting seeds. So the idiom actually goes, "you reap what you sow."
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But anyone can GET HYPE
Loool no. Most people can't even form a coherent sentence let alone GET HYPE. Any pro-player can do analysis, there's an overabundance of analysis men for SC2, since every pro is better than pretty much any analytical caster at it. GETTING HYPE (ie. play-by-play, y'know, the sports industry standard for commentary) is something that only a few people in this scene can actually do properly because it requires actual communication skills and stamina, something most people don't have.
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Northern Ireland26670 Posts
Biscuit laying it down, good stuff.
@I agree with your sentiment that females are judged as a group, males as individuals like you say. However, I do see the worst elements of the scene being held up as representative of 'gamers', which I guess is reasonably comparable.
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On July 30 2013 23:22 TotalBiscuit wrote:Loool no. Most people can't even form a coherent sentence let alone GET HYPE. Any pro-player can do analysis, there's an overabundance of analysis men for SC2, since every pro is better than pretty much any analytical caster at it. GETTING HYPE (ie. play-by-play, y'know, the sports industry standard for commentary) is something that only a few people in this scene can actually do properly because it requires actual communication skills and stamina, something most people don't have.
Wait you are telling us that broadcasting isn't a skill we are all born with? That is more than just talking fast and discribing whats on screen? That is takes practice, effort and might be hard? I don't think the people in this thread are ready for this level of honesty.
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United States6752 Posts
On July 30 2013 23:24 Wombat_NI wrote:
Biscuit laying it down, good stuff.
@I agree with your sentiment that females are judged as a group, males as individuals like you say. However, I do see the worst elements of the scene being held up as representative of 'gamers', which I guess is reasonably comparable.
Yeah, but that "worse element of the scene being held up as representative of gamers" is done by people outside the gamer community, much like a lot of the notions about women in gaming is held by people outside of the female community.
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On July 30 2013 23:02 Gr33n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 22:32 Nekovivie wrote:On July 30 2013 22:25 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2013 22:22 Nekovivie wrote:On July 30 2013 18:29 AxUU wrote:Yeah but man, even though I know and realize that there are women out there just to play the damn game, I've seen female streamers who stream their face in a big picture and have the game in a little picture in the bottom left corner of the stream. That's something I'd definitely call whoring for attention. So they have their face on their stream? I think you'll find most streamers do this, and these ones being female has nothing to do with it. You make it sound like girls shouldn't show their webcams in public, like some ridiculous middle east tradition where they don't let women do anything. You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face. Surely that is more down to the audience than the individual. no its not lol shes abusing lonely nerd virgins its abhorrent because she is trashing girl gamers names imo http://www.twitch.tv/gemieee/c/2634288http://www.twitch.tv/gemieee/c/2550725im sure they watch her for her gameplay. im not sure what cosplay has to do with gaming but to me, this is basically boothbabe nonsense that appeals to the wrong side of gaming. its hard for serious "girl gamers" casters or whatever to be taken seriously when this girl and others like her do this. you reap what you sew and girls so far (not all) are sewing the seeds of sex before talent in the gamer world. its hardly the guys fault for acting the way they do. lets also consider what the game characters look like. show me a game character (nova, kerrigan) that are not "sexy". this topic is so over in that we who are at least intelligent enough to know that any talented girl caster will be treated equally yet im so compelled to continually put down those that think gaming is sexist when its honestly not that. its unfiltered internet and guys are horny while girls less so. if a girl is bad at something with gaming, she is gonna catch shit, if shes good she wont.
There's a lot of streams, each streamer has their own gimmick to pull in viewers. For example, IdrA's is just being a douche to people he plays against. There is nothing wrong with it. This prejudice against women doing what they want is probably a good part in why there aren't many women in esports.
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On July 30 2013 11:29 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 11:05 scDeluX wrote:
In the simplest, girls simply aren't interested in competitive gaming.
Demographic for competitive RTS are probably 99% 14-25yo mens.
You tell women what they are interested in and use math to do it. You go.
He does not tell _women_ anything, he is making an observation... and 'probably 99% 14-25yo mens' is not math, it is just a wild guess.... just because there are digits in a sentence does not make it 'math'
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On July 30 2013 23:33 shmget wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 11:29 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2013 11:05 scDeluX wrote:
In the simplest, girls simply aren't interested in competitive gaming.
Demographic for competitive RTS are probably 99% 14-25yo mens.
You tell women what they are interested in and use math to do it. You go. He does not tell _women_ anything, he is making an observation... and 'probably 99% 14-25yo mens' is not math, it is just a wild guess.... just because there are digits in a sentence does not make it 'math'
Yeah, that obeservation is a little sexist. Just like if I said "Its simple, all women like shoes because I see a lot of them shopping for shoes and TV shows also show them shopping for shoes".
Or better yet, play the game I like to play when I want to know if a comment is sexist. Replace the word "Women" or "Girls" with "Black people" and then tell me if you would feel comfortable saying that phrase out loud, in public. If the answer is "holy shit that sounds super racist", the comment is likely pretty sexist.
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Northern Ireland26670 Posts
On July 30 2013 23:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 23:24 Wombat_NI wrote:
Biscuit laying it down, good stuff.
@I agree with your sentiment that females are judged as a group, males as individuals like you say. However, I do see the worst elements of the scene being held up as representative of 'gamers', which I guess is reasonably comparable. Yeah, but that "worse element of the scene being held up as representative of gamers" is done by people outside the gamer community, much like a lot of the notions about women in gaming is held by people outside of the female community.
Yeah a pretty reasonable assessment. That said, Destiny did face some censure, at least ostensibly because his image was seen as negative for the industry's growth into pastures new.
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How many male sc2 players are there per female sc2 player?
How many sc2 players are there per caster?
I think you will find it unsurprising that there aren't (m)any female sc2 casters.
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On July 30 2013 16:20 Gr33n wrote:
look at scarlett. shes a he and no one gives a shit anymore.
That actually puzzle me: why would anyone have given a shit at all to start with ?
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On July 30 2013 17:17 Nazca wrote:
Hi all,
I'll try to cover all that's been said here but it might get lenghty...
Thanks for your input.... and it was not 'lengthy' :-)
Les interviews francais => anglais => coréen => anglais => francais sont un drole d'exercise :-)
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[QUOTE]On July 30 2013 17:47 Opera wrote:
[QUOTE]On July 30 2013 17:17 Nazca wrote:
From what I read, a women can not appear on stream without getting messages which have nothing to do with the game or the content they are providing to the viewers.
[/QUOTE]
Let me use a cultural reference that as a French you should get (although this may be getting a bit too old of a reference... )
"Oh Patriiiiick...."
iow, based on that position, Patrick Bruel should have been discouraged from having a singing career due to a _lot_ of attention from the opposite sex, unrelated to his singing talent (or lack thereof).
maybe I should quote the wisdom of these days : :-)
Allo ? Allo, t'es une fille et t'as pas de shampoing ?"
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EPT
