EPTedit: Oh my bad. I forgot that this is the part where you take one small part of what a person says, misinterpret it, respond to it, ignore everything else, and continuing arguing about something no one is talking about. If you need someone to talk to, have a conversation with one of your alts. Stop dicking up the thread for the rest of us.
The 2014 NHL Season - Two Accounts, No Cups - Page 148
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Flaccid
8896 Posts
edit: Oh my bad. I forgot that this is the part where you take one small part of what a person says, misinterpret it, respond to it, ignore everything else, and continuing arguing about something no one is talking about. If you need someone to talk to, have a conversation with one of your alts. Stop dicking up the thread for the rest of us. | ||
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lamprey1
Canada919 Posts
On April 09 2014 01:00 Flaccid wrote: TIL objectively looking at numbers = putting pyramids under the bench. Thanks for filling me in, bro. edit: Oh my bad. I forgot that this is the part where you take one small part of what a person says, misinterpret it, respond to it, ignore everything else, and continuing arguing about something no one is talking about. If you need someone to talk to, have a conversation with one of your alts. Stop dicking up the thread for the rest of us. if you're going to make some grand epistemological over generalization you'll get called on it. my comment was dead on topic. just because something is new doesn't mean it is good. AND its often hard to tell what is good or bad as new stuff comes forward. if you don't have a rebuttal for your over generalization dont needlessly flame. i've already told you me, TankGirl, and Raynor will play any of you guys in Zealot hockey. so quit screwing up the thread with dumb flames and hit the ice with ur zealot. | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32132 Posts
On April 09 2014 00:31 Flaccid wrote: Yeah, pretty much. Things like corsi are super simplistic and intuitive so it's hilarious when the Leafs are like "keep ur fancy-ma-stats outta our unfounded opinions, basement-dwelling nerdlingers." It's one thing to be accidentally ignorant, but another thing completely to be intentionally ignorant and proud of it. It's cute when people dismiss stats outright because they don't give you a complete, binary view of a hockey game. "It doesn't do everything therefore it does nothing!" It's like watching congressmen discuss climate change - the science is only 99%, and since it is not 100% it is therefore 0%. Take that, logic and reason. Those things are for losers. Hockey is a complicated game and nothing ever exists in a vacuum. It is a game of flow and the situations worth analyzing are much more abstract and harder to define than a sport like baseball. Everyone knows that intuitively. But that doesn't mean a picture can not be formed. A great example are the Vollman charts which give a visual representation of how a player is used and their effectiveness in that role. It's a great entry into seeing if a player is being used effectively and whether they are sinking or swimming. History always favors the progressives. It has to because human thought can never stop evolving. Eventually, things always move forward. So get on board or get left behind. Yeah that's what is so hilarious about Toronto's hatred of non-traditional stats. Pro-stat people are well aware of the current limitations, the differences between baseball/hockey, and that you can't use just one stat to make an evaluation of the club. Butttttttt when eeeeeverything points to Toronto being a lucky team that was overdue to regress hard from their unsustainable play, maybe it means something! Your congress example is dead fucking on hahaha. I really want to see if the team starts to value possession, zone starts and zone entry after this season. Most likely, they will ship out dudes like Phaneuf, who is still a pretty good player (for a dumb meathead) who is being used horribly wrong, or Kadri, who doesn't get enough offensive zone starts because the team and system is shit, and is forced to dump and chase rather than carry the zone, which he is really good at. I've seen a lot of debate about the future of Tortorella based on how badly the Canucks did this season. He kinda gets it with the advanced shit though (even if it is relying on gumption not so much understanding the newer stuff). He constantly deploys his third in their own end to give his top guys more ozs. His system just is not helpful for possession stats. Dump and chase is ok sometimes, but he has to loosen up and let his skill guys carry, and let his dman make breakout passes instead of that retarded pass and deflection by the forward at the blueline thing he did with the Rangers and now the Canucks. | ||
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lamprey1
Canada919 Posts
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/magazine-pyramid-power/ ![[image loading]](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-21liuRg5nTU/TaXyA2HpUZI/AAAAAAAAAak/GOtJNU8_6XA/s1600/RedKelly.jpg) sry Roger.  | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32132 Posts
also Gillis just got canned | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On April 09 2014 02:11 QuanticHawk wrote: Yeah that's what is so hilarious about Toronto's hatred of non-traditional stats. Pro-stat people are well aware of the current limitations, the differences between baseball/hockey, and that you can't use just one stat to make an evaluation of the club. Butttttttt when eeeeeverything points to Toronto being a lucky team that was overdue to regress hard from their unsustainable play, maybe it means something! Your congress example is dead fucking on hahaha. I really want to see if the team starts to value possession, zone starts and zone entry after this season. Most likely, they will ship out dudes like Phaneuf, who is still a pretty good player (for a dumb meathead) who is being used horribly wrong, or Kadri, who doesn't get enough offensive zone starts because the team and system is shit, and is forced to dump and chase rather than carry the zone, which he is really good at. I've seen a lot of debate about the future of Tortorella based on how badly the Canucks did this season. He kinda gets it with the advanced shit though (even if it is relying on gumption not so much understanding the newer stuff). He constantly deploys his third in their own end to give his top guys more ozs. His system just is not helpful for possession stats. Dump and chase is ok sometimes, but he has to loosen up and let his skill guys carry, and let his dman make breakout passes instead of that retarded pass and deflection by the forward at the blueline thing he did with the Rangers and now the Canucks. Well the good news for Torts -- I think -- is that the greedy slum owners of the Cancuks are way too cheap to hand over 10 or whatever million they still owe him and fire him. But I also think it seems like he does best when the team is made up of mostly grindy 2nd line types and a great goalie like his earlier years with the Rangers and not that great when management drapes him with theoretically stars he seems to overplay. It almost feels like the Rangers got worse and worse as more fancy stars were added to the lineup. | ||
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lamprey1
Canada919 Posts
according to "advanced metrics" and "hockey abstract" and all these tall foreheads who have every letter in the greek alphabet memorized but still can't prove the fundamental theorem of calculus... Scotty Bowman is the best coach in the history of the NHL. Bowman's favourite method of measuring a player is direct observation supplemented with various stats. even such simple things as the length of the players reach and what hand he shoots with. Bowman's ability throughout his career to pick out a center on his bench that would win a face off draw against another specific center comes from direct observation of how that player goes about winning a face-off draw. this is just 1 example where direct observation is the foundation method in decision making. i can name 2387438743897 others... and if u listen to Bowman talk.. now that he is an old man.. he'll tell u. the best "puck possession team" in the history of the NHL is the 1977 Montreal Canadiens. and this is also where our statisticians reverse cause and effect. did bowman run around yelling at his guys to hold onto the puck all the time? no, they acquired guys who are elite puck handlers. he implored Pollock to acquire elite puck handlers, elite in terms of pure talent. and he strived to have all his players improve the puck handlings skills.. passing it flipping it.. chipping it.... the CAUSE is amazing puck handling abilities of the individual players and the EFFECT is TEAM PUCK CONTROL. how do you identify the next Mario Lemieux? via direct observation. and even with all that elite puck handling and uber-skill Bowman still knew when to send Robinson over the boards to find their opponents toughest forward and beat him half to death. but , instead we have a bunch of forum gods running around claiming Quenneville invented the idea of puck possession and stan and scotty bowman have nothing to do with Chicago's success... and instead of drafting Guy Lafleur lets hop up and down and yell at Jim Korn not to dump the puck in. are the new statistics being defined all trash , no they are not? they are a tool to aid in evaluation. just like they were in 1953 and 1983 and 2013. but, anything new must be met by skepticism before being adopted. otherwise every team in MLB would be running around on astroturf and every NHL hockey team would have 10 miniature pyramids under their bench. | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32132 Posts
The 2011-12 Rangers were by far his best group, and that was because the first liners were did their job well and guys like Dubinsky and Anisimov soaked up hard minutes on the third and still chipped in offensively. IIRC, Dubi had some a ~35% ozs that year. And I think he was still positive on possession. | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On April 09 2014 04:12 QuanticHawk wrote: His style of play requires the top line to produce with the extra time they get (the Sedins didn't) and it needs good, fast depth players who can score with limited time and harder zone starts (The Canuck depth players were dogshit this year). The 2011-12 Rangers were by far his best group, and that was because the first liners were did their job well and guys like Dubinsky and Anisimov soaked up hard minutes on the third and still chipped in offensively. IIRC, Dubi had some a ~35% ozs that year. And I think he was still positive on possession. Ya, he clearly overplayed the Sedins, but agreed, basically the Canucks were exposed that most people saw them as, a one line team that covered up a lot of weakness in the lower lines. Which youd think would be enough to get the GM fired but you dont fire your pet puppet until people stop showing up to the games. | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32132 Posts
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lamprey1
Canada919 Posts
http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/10750038/vancouver-canucks-fire-president-gm-mike-gillis Bowman's puck possession philosophy is explained in 1966 to the Montreal Junior Canadiens in glorious black and white at 5:44 of "Legends of Hockey". 1966... what a guy. Steve Yzerman, 1998, "Scotty Bowman is the leader of our team and its his team". | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On April 09 2014 04:30 QuanticHawk wrote: Honestly, an extra 2+ minutes a night on average shouldn't result in a total collapse in production. They started slowing down as early as December. And it isn't like they were lighting the world on fire prior to that. They were hovering around .7-.8ppg. They slid further, the crap depth was exposed and poof. 2 minutes a night builds up, and AV had them playing very favorable matchups in their later years because he clearly saw the writing on the wall too for them. But its not that crazy. Naslund had a similar kind of statistical collapse in his last two years in Vancouver. Anyway, Gillis leaves behind a lot of landmines -- Burrows at 4.5, the Twins at 14 million, Kesler? Edler and his non movement clause. Lets see who they get to rebuild. | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32132 Posts
On April 09 2014 05:01 Sub40APM wrote: 2 minutes a night builds up, and AV had them playing very favorable matchups in their later years because he clearly saw the writing on the wall too for them. But its not that crazy. Naslund had a similar kind of statistical collapse in his last two years in Vancouver. Anyway, Gillis leaves behind a lot of landmines -- Burrows at 4.5, the Twins at 14 million, Kesler? Edler and his non movement clause. Lets see who they get to rebuild. From AV's last year to this year, their ozs dropped about %5 from 65ish to 60ish. That's still pretty good and their qualcomp is about the same. The three years prior that though, going form oldest to most recent, they were 60ish, 70ish and almost 80%. Damn. I think Kesler is absolutely tradable at that rate. Even if he stays a 50ish point player vs the 70point player of a few years back, $5m/2 years left is totally reasonable for a good two way, shoot first guy in your top 6. The rest are definitely tough sells. Twins at 7 per for 4 more years/until they're 37 when they're already declining. Burrows is shit and has three more years and he's already 32. Edler, I actually don't think is that bad. He had a shit season, but he's still a dman who has put up 40+ a few times, and come close to it a few more seasons. And he's still young. | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
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Orcasgt24
Canada3238 Posts
On April 09 2014 05:29 Sub40APM wrote: Edler's year this year has been as surprising as the Twins to me personally, I also view him as a 40+ dmen but he just looks like shit now. But he had that back injury so who knows. Kesler is tradeable the way Schneider or Luongo were, first you need a team where theyll go and second you need a GM who is prepared to take picks. And since some people are already calling for fucking Trevor Linden -- just think about that -- to be brought in I am mildly skeptical how brave the new hire will be . Canucks fans should look at Edmonton to see how good of an idea it is to make former popular players managers. Hopefully they don't offer Linden anything | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32132 Posts
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On April 09 2014 05:31 Orcasgt24 wrote: Canucks fans should look at Edmonton to see how good of an idea it is to make former popular players managers. Hopefully they don't offer Linden anything well, they hired a former player agent with 0 executive experience as their first GM choice so once you set that pattern, you can only go up right. | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
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lamprey1
Canada919 Posts
Reimer doing his Felix Potvin imitation on a shot from the top of the face off circle the guy has zero confidence. | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
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