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On March 02 2013 00:30 AnomalySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2013 00:26 Plansix wrote:On March 02 2013 00:23 AnomalySC2 wrote:On March 02 2013 00:19 Plansix wrote:On March 02 2013 00:09 AnomalySC2 wrote:On March 01 2013 23:52 Plansix wrote:On March 01 2013 23:37 AnomalySC2 wrote:On March 01 2013 23:07 Plansix wrote:On March 01 2013 22:57 AnomalySC2 wrote:On March 01 2013 22:49 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
I was attacking you because you lacked factual information and were working for inference and your own personal thoughts. You were also attempting to make the SC2 is dying argument, which always gets me into rage mode because it so dumb. Now that there is overwhelming evidence that IPL is scaling back, I will say you inferred correctly. But they shutting down has nothing to do with SC2 in any way. I don't see how you can't connect SC2 to IPL's dying. If the games being played were good enough, people would watch and stay invested. Again, just common sense on my part, go ahead and attack me some more for expressing my opinion. Artosis said it best on SotG when he said “how can you have an opinion that’s so wrong. Opinions aren’t supposed to wrong.” The sale of IGN has nothing to do with SC2, but more that News Corp was looking to unload an unsuccessful site that was getting its lunch eaten by Giant Bomb, Game Spot and newcomers like Total Biscuit. Because IGN was sold, IPL now was in a place where they might not have funding for a while, so they needed to pull back on their events until they found a buyer/sponsor. The number of views on SC2 has nothing to do with any of those events. Even if 200K people watch IPL6, they might not have a buyer to help them run the next event or cover the cost of their employees until they run that event. To put it another way, IPL was put in a place where they didn’t know if any more money would be coming beyond what they had. So they are forced to go responsible route and decided not to bet all of it on a single event and hope that it was profitable enough to get them to IPL7. You don’t bet the entire business on one event, that is a terrible plan. But none of it has anything to do with SC2. Sorry, I just don't agree. I've grown up with Blizzard games, I know just how much higher quality the games that both BW and even TFT offered when compared to SC2. Imo Blizzard dropped the ball with SC2, and most recently D3. I still stand by my statement, if SC2 offered games that were as exciting or intense as most Professional BW games, then viewers would rise or at least stay consistent. Instead, we have had the scene slowly but surely shrinking over the past 3 years, and now IPL is simply not able to sustain itself any longer. I also think Gom expanding their tournament selection to more than just SC2 is even more evidence, they're likely not able to sustain themselves with the small viewership either. This is even with a partnership with Blizzard, whom are still raking in plenty of cash off WoW I assume. Well I disagree and I think you are cherry picking your information in an effort to make your point. GOM has moved into a new studio and has always been open to running other games. No company that runs events is going to run one game, ever. They will always be looking to expand their market and get more viewer. The idea one company would run SC2 until the end of time and never get involved in another game is unreasonable and simply cannot be used as proof that SC2 is shrinking. GOM owns a studio and they are going to use the studio to show more things that SC2. As for Blizzard, they make mistakes, but their launch games are also not the games we remember. SC prime was not amazing in any way and was completely broken, with no replays, shit maps and terrible balance. D2 prime was not the game people remember and love today. It was the expansions that made those games great, as Blizzard refined the games down to the experience we remember today. Your entitled to your opinion but you have little evidence to back it up beyond a few leaps of logic like GOM showing more than just SC2 and personal feelings. If you are going to express that opinion, that is fine, but don’t expect the people who strongly disagree to ignore it. There is a growing group of TL members that are extremely tired of the negativity in the community and are expressing that opinion as well. I am one of them and I see the same people expressing their frustration with the negativity. Indeed, it is just leaps in logic upon my part, and I absolutely don't expect everyone to view it the same way I do. However, I also would like to know your opinion on exactly why there has been so much negativity surrounding SC2 lately? That doesn't just happen for no reason at all, some people are just starting to see all the cracks, imo. Ok, last one and then I must do work. The negativity is coming from… the internet. People are negative on the internet because they are. Look at the launch of new Sim City, people are whining about how the game is being dumbed down and is bad. Look at the new Devil May Cry, more whining. But if you read up on those games, they got great reviews or have great feedback from people playing it, but still people bitch and whine. People claiming that the gaming is dying, that Apple slipping because they had less profitable quarter. Netflix is going under, TV is going to go away forever. Bookstores are going to disappear. Everyone thinks the sky is falling on the internet. Its world wide, anyone can find 15 people to agree with them on the internet and post a lot about something. But that doesn’t make it true. So that's it then, the internet is to blame? People are just inherently negative, and that's all there is to it? Grasping at straws are we? It is a perfect counter argument to “People are negative about SC2, so there must be a reason they are like that. And that reason is the game is bad and it is dying.” Once again, your proof for SC2 is dying is that people are negative about it on internet forums and the twitch numbers are sometimes lower than LoL. Uhh no, Twitch numbers have been sinking steadily for SC2. That's my point. And saying they're "sometimes" lower than LoL is a pretty big stretch, try something along the lines of, sometimes during major finals SC2 gets close to LoL's average viewer numbers. For instance, LoL is at 116k viewers right now, and WoL is at 5.8k.
Ok, see this is why you will never win this argument, because your evidence sucks and your wrong. Right now, the LCS is live, which the LoL main competitive league run by Riot, which always has around 100K viewers. Now there is nothing on for SC2 and all the most popular streamers aren’t on or and there is no major event right now. Stop using shitty information to make your point and then claiming that other times your information is fine when people point out that it is shitty. Blizzard’s Vengeance stream had 40K viewers to watch a show match and a trailer.
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On March 02 2013 00:39 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2013 00:30 AnomalySC2 wrote:On March 02 2013 00:26 Plansix wrote:On March 02 2013 00:23 AnomalySC2 wrote:On March 02 2013 00:19 Plansix wrote:On March 02 2013 00:09 AnomalySC2 wrote:On March 01 2013 23:52 Plansix wrote:On March 01 2013 23:37 AnomalySC2 wrote:On March 01 2013 23:07 Plansix wrote:On March 01 2013 22:57 AnomalySC2 wrote:
[quote]
I don't see how you can't connect SC2 to IPL's dying. If the games being played were good enough, people would watch and stay invested. Again, just common sense on my part, go ahead and attack me some more for expressing my opinion.
Artosis said it best on SotG when he said “how can you have an opinion that’s so wrong. Opinions aren’t supposed to wrong.” The sale of IGN has nothing to do with SC2, but more that News Corp was looking to unload an unsuccessful site that was getting its lunch eaten by Giant Bomb, Game Spot and newcomers like Total Biscuit. Because IGN was sold, IPL now was in a place where they might not have funding for a while, so they needed to pull back on their events until they found a buyer/sponsor. The number of views on SC2 has nothing to do with any of those events. Even if 200K people watch IPL6, they might not have a buyer to help them run the next event or cover the cost of their employees until they run that event. To put it another way, IPL was put in a place where they didn’t know if any more money would be coming beyond what they had. So they are forced to go responsible route and decided not to bet all of it on a single event and hope that it was profitable enough to get them to IPL7. You don’t bet the entire business on one event, that is a terrible plan. But none of it has anything to do with SC2. Sorry, I just don't agree. I've grown up with Blizzard games, I know just how much higher quality the games that both BW and even TFT offered when compared to SC2. Imo Blizzard dropped the ball with SC2, and most recently D3. I still stand by my statement, if SC2 offered games that were as exciting or intense as most Professional BW games, then viewers would rise or at least stay consistent. Instead, we have had the scene slowly but surely shrinking over the past 3 years, and now IPL is simply not able to sustain itself any longer. I also think Gom expanding their tournament selection to more than just SC2 is even more evidence, they're likely not able to sustain themselves with the small viewership either. This is even with a partnership with Blizzard, whom are still raking in plenty of cash off WoW I assume. Well I disagree and I think you are cherry picking your information in an effort to make your point. GOM has moved into a new studio and has always been open to running other games. No company that runs events is going to run one game, ever. They will always be looking to expand their market and get more viewer. The idea one company would run SC2 until the end of time and never get involved in another game is unreasonable and simply cannot be used as proof that SC2 is shrinking. GOM owns a studio and they are going to use the studio to show more things that SC2. As for Blizzard, they make mistakes, but their launch games are also not the games we remember. SC prime was not amazing in any way and was completely broken, with no replays, shit maps and terrible balance. D2 prime was not the game people remember and love today. It was the expansions that made those games great, as Blizzard refined the games down to the experience we remember today. Your entitled to your opinion but you have little evidence to back it up beyond a few leaps of logic like GOM showing more than just SC2 and personal feelings. If you are going to express that opinion, that is fine, but don’t expect the people who strongly disagree to ignore it. There is a growing group of TL members that are extremely tired of the negativity in the community and are expressing that opinion as well. I am one of them and I see the same people expressing their frustration with the negativity. Indeed, it is just leaps in logic upon my part, and I absolutely don't expect everyone to view it the same way I do. However, I also would like to know your opinion on exactly why there has been so much negativity surrounding SC2 lately? That doesn't just happen for no reason at all, some people are just starting to see all the cracks, imo. Ok, last one and then I must do work. The negativity is coming from… the internet. People are negative on the internet because they are. Look at the launch of new Sim City, people are whining about how the game is being dumbed down and is bad. Look at the new Devil May Cry, more whining. But if you read up on those games, they got great reviews or have great feedback from people playing it, but still people bitch and whine. People claiming that the gaming is dying, that Apple slipping because they had less profitable quarter. Netflix is going under, TV is going to go away forever. Bookstores are going to disappear. Everyone thinks the sky is falling on the internet. Its world wide, anyone can find 15 people to agree with them on the internet and post a lot about something. But that doesn’t make it true. So that's it then, the internet is to blame? People are just inherently negative, and that's all there is to it? Grasping at straws are we? It is a perfect counter argument to “People are negative about SC2, so there must be a reason they are like that. And that reason is the game is bad and it is dying.” Once again, your proof for SC2 is dying is that people are negative about it on internet forums and the twitch numbers are sometimes lower than LoL. Uhh no, Twitch numbers have been sinking steadily for SC2. That's my point. And saying they're "sometimes" lower than LoL is a pretty big stretch, try something along the lines of, sometimes during major finals SC2 gets close to LoL's average viewer numbers. For instance, LoL is at 116k viewers right now, and WoL is at 5.8k. Ok, see this is why you will never win this argument, because your evidence sucks and your wrong. Right now, the LCS is live, which the LoL main competitive league run by Riot, which always has around 100K viewers. Now there is nothing on for SC2 and all the most popular streamers aren’t on or and there is no major event right now. Stop using shitty information to make your point and then claiming that other times your information is fine when people point out that it is shitty. Blizzard’s Vengeance stream had 40K viewers to watch a show match and a trailer.
Even without the LCS, there are always at least 50k viewers or more. TSM members get 25k+ viewers on a daily basis. SC2 seems to fit around 8k-15k on average. And no I'm not "wrong", go look for yourself instead of mindlessly attacking me for no apparent reason.
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On March 02 2013 00:42 AnomalySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2013 00:39 Plansix wrote:On March 02 2013 00:30 AnomalySC2 wrote:On March 02 2013 00:26 Plansix wrote:On March 02 2013 00:23 AnomalySC2 wrote:On March 02 2013 00:19 Plansix wrote:On March 02 2013 00:09 AnomalySC2 wrote:On March 01 2013 23:52 Plansix wrote:On March 01 2013 23:37 AnomalySC2 wrote:On March 01 2013 23:07 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Artosis said it best on SotG when he said “how can you have an opinion that’s so wrong. Opinions aren’t supposed to wrong.” The sale of IGN has nothing to do with SC2, but more that News Corp was looking to unload an unsuccessful site that was getting its lunch eaten by Giant Bomb, Game Spot and newcomers like Total Biscuit. Because IGN was sold, IPL now was in a place where they might not have funding for a while, so they needed to pull back on their events until they found a buyer/sponsor. The number of views on SC2 has nothing to do with any of those events. Even if 200K people watch IPL6, they might not have a buyer to help them run the next event or cover the cost of their employees until they run that event.
To put it another way, IPL was put in a place where they didn’t know if any more money would be coming beyond what they had. So they are forced to go responsible route and decided not to bet all of it on a single event and hope that it was profitable enough to get them to IPL7. You don’t bet the entire business on one event, that is a terrible plan. But none of it has anything to do with SC2.
Sorry, I just don't agree. I've grown up with Blizzard games, I know just how much higher quality the games that both BW and even TFT offered when compared to SC2. Imo Blizzard dropped the ball with SC2, and most recently D3. I still stand by my statement, if SC2 offered games that were as exciting or intense as most Professional BW games, then viewers would rise or at least stay consistent. Instead, we have had the scene slowly but surely shrinking over the past 3 years, and now IPL is simply not able to sustain itself any longer. I also think Gom expanding their tournament selection to more than just SC2 is even more evidence, they're likely not able to sustain themselves with the small viewership either. This is even with a partnership with Blizzard, whom are still raking in plenty of cash off WoW I assume. Well I disagree and I think you are cherry picking your information in an effort to make your point. GOM has moved into a new studio and has always been open to running other games. No company that runs events is going to run one game, ever. They will always be looking to expand their market and get more viewer. The idea one company would run SC2 until the end of time and never get involved in another game is unreasonable and simply cannot be used as proof that SC2 is shrinking. GOM owns a studio and they are going to use the studio to show more things that SC2. As for Blizzard, they make mistakes, but their launch games are also not the games we remember. SC prime was not amazing in any way and was completely broken, with no replays, shit maps and terrible balance. D2 prime was not the game people remember and love today. It was the expansions that made those games great, as Blizzard refined the games down to the experience we remember today. Your entitled to your opinion but you have little evidence to back it up beyond a few leaps of logic like GOM showing more than just SC2 and personal feelings. If you are going to express that opinion, that is fine, but don’t expect the people who strongly disagree to ignore it. There is a growing group of TL members that are extremely tired of the negativity in the community and are expressing that opinion as well. I am one of them and I see the same people expressing their frustration with the negativity. Indeed, it is just leaps in logic upon my part, and I absolutely don't expect everyone to view it the same way I do. However, I also would like to know your opinion on exactly why there has been so much negativity surrounding SC2 lately? That doesn't just happen for no reason at all, some people are just starting to see all the cracks, imo. Ok, last one and then I must do work. The negativity is coming from… the internet. People are negative on the internet because they are. Look at the launch of new Sim City, people are whining about how the game is being dumbed down and is bad. Look at the new Devil May Cry, more whining. But if you read up on those games, they got great reviews or have great feedback from people playing it, but still people bitch and whine. People claiming that the gaming is dying, that Apple slipping because they had less profitable quarter. Netflix is going under, TV is going to go away forever. Bookstores are going to disappear. Everyone thinks the sky is falling on the internet. Its world wide, anyone can find 15 people to agree with them on the internet and post a lot about something. But that doesn’t make it true. So that's it then, the internet is to blame? People are just inherently negative, and that's all there is to it? Grasping at straws are we? It is a perfect counter argument to “People are negative about SC2, so there must be a reason they are like that. And that reason is the game is bad and it is dying.” Once again, your proof for SC2 is dying is that people are negative about it on internet forums and the twitch numbers are sometimes lower than LoL. Uhh no, Twitch numbers have been sinking steadily for SC2. That's my point. And saying they're "sometimes" lower than LoL is a pretty big stretch, try something along the lines of, sometimes during major finals SC2 gets close to LoL's average viewer numbers. For instance, LoL is at 116k viewers right now, and WoL is at 5.8k. Ok, see this is why you will never win this argument, because your evidence sucks and your wrong. Right now, the LCS is live, which the LoL main competitive league run by Riot, which always has around 100K viewers. Now there is nothing on for SC2 and all the most popular streamers aren’t on or and there is no major event right now. Stop using shitty information to make your point and then claiming that other times your information is fine when people point out that it is shitty. Blizzard’s Vengeance stream had 40K viewers to watch a show match and a trailer. Even without the LCS, there are always at least 50k viewers or more. TSM members get 25k+ viewers on a daily basis. SC2 seems to fit around 8k-15k on average.
and what does that say about the sustainability of IPL? that's right. absolutely nothing.
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On March 02 2013 00:20 AnomalySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2013 00:14 Plansix wrote:On March 02 2013 00:07 AnomalySC2 wrote:On March 01 2013 23:45 DarkLordOlli wrote:On March 01 2013 23:43 AnomalySC2 wrote:On March 01 2013 23:41 eviltomahawk wrote:On March 01 2013 23:39 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Funny because GOM just moved to a bigger, better, more expensive studio and their production for SC2 has only been getting better. That doesn't make sense. Their production costs money. Adding games is a sign that they're doing well, not the other way around. I also like to add that GOM ran Warcraft 3, World of Warcraft, and A.V.A. leagues alongside their BW leagues back in the day. GOMtv running multiple leagues for multiple games is hardly unusual. 3 years of running only SC2 tournaments, and now that viewer numbers are way down across the board, they start to expand their tournament roster. Yep, not unusual. Where exactly are you getting their viewership numbers from? Also how do you explain their new expensive studio with that logic? I'm getting my viewer numbers from Twitch.tv, and the general amount of activity forums see relating to SC2 events. Those are terrible metrics to gauge SC2 by and doing is incredibly naïve. That is like gauging the popularity of a TV show by the activity on forums and number of views on their youtube page. I watch SC2 on my TV and don’t post in live update threads often. You can’t just taking the limited about of front facing information available and then make a grand statement like SC2 is dying. And if you do, be prepared to be shouted down by people who know better. But I have wasted enough time on the forums this morning. I have appeals that must be dismissed and motions for sanctions to draft. Ok and I'm also just factoring in, you know, the closure of one of SC2's largest tournaments and all the player retirements/team closures or mergers that have happened recently.......
You're obviously not that bright of an individual so I'll try and make this simple for you.
You seem to be one of the people who highlights and bookmarks every single negative thing, and fails to note the important positives/facts. Almost every single team that has closed in the past 6 months has been a result of poor management, and not "SC2 Dying". In fact, we've had an equal number, if not greater number of teams pop up in the last few months on a positive track compared to the mismanaged teams that have fallen to the wayside. Sponsorship of teams is also UP despite what you'd probably like to believe. Almost every single retirement in the past 6 months has either been attributed to lack of relevancy in the scene, or no desire to make the switch to Heart of the Swarm, not "SC2 Dying". IPL 6's closure is not due to "SC2 Dying" which would be a mind-numbingly retarded assumption in the first place considering under the previous NewsCorp ownership they were already set to do 4 events this year with the GOAL of breaking even by the last event, but rather due to the fact that IGN as a whole is being set up on a market and therefore needs to be "groomed" and that means trimming excess fat in the budget, namely the flashy IPL division.
People like you are GOING to be the reason SC2 declines if you continue to put your blinders on and tunnel vision on the negative, so I would like to kindly suggest that you take them off and look at the big picture before you make yourself look even more foolish and drag some more poor, idiotic hive-mind followers onto the "SC2 is dying" train.
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On March 02 2013 00:42 AnomalySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2013 00:39 Plansix wrote:On March 02 2013 00:30 AnomalySC2 wrote:On March 02 2013 00:26 Plansix wrote:On March 02 2013 00:23 AnomalySC2 wrote:On March 02 2013 00:19 Plansix wrote:On March 02 2013 00:09 AnomalySC2 wrote:On March 01 2013 23:52 Plansix wrote:On March 01 2013 23:37 AnomalySC2 wrote:On March 01 2013 23:07 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Artosis said it best on SotG when he said “how can you have an opinion that’s so wrong. Opinions aren’t supposed to wrong.” The sale of IGN has nothing to do with SC2, but more that News Corp was looking to unload an unsuccessful site that was getting its lunch eaten by Giant Bomb, Game Spot and newcomers like Total Biscuit. Because IGN was sold, IPL now was in a place where they might not have funding for a while, so they needed to pull back on their events until they found a buyer/sponsor. The number of views on SC2 has nothing to do with any of those events. Even if 200K people watch IPL6, they might not have a buyer to help them run the next event or cover the cost of their employees until they run that event.
To put it another way, IPL was put in a place where they didn’t know if any more money would be coming beyond what they had. So they are forced to go responsible route and decided not to bet all of it on a single event and hope that it was profitable enough to get them to IPL7. You don’t bet the entire business on one event, that is a terrible plan. But none of it has anything to do with SC2.
Sorry, I just don't agree. I've grown up with Blizzard games, I know just how much higher quality the games that both BW and even TFT offered when compared to SC2. Imo Blizzard dropped the ball with SC2, and most recently D3. I still stand by my statement, if SC2 offered games that were as exciting or intense as most Professional BW games, then viewers would rise or at least stay consistent. Instead, we have had the scene slowly but surely shrinking over the past 3 years, and now IPL is simply not able to sustain itself any longer. I also think Gom expanding their tournament selection to more than just SC2 is even more evidence, they're likely not able to sustain themselves with the small viewership either. This is even with a partnership with Blizzard, whom are still raking in plenty of cash off WoW I assume. Well I disagree and I think you are cherry picking your information in an effort to make your point. GOM has moved into a new studio and has always been open to running other games. No company that runs events is going to run one game, ever. They will always be looking to expand their market and get more viewer. The idea one company would run SC2 until the end of time and never get involved in another game is unreasonable and simply cannot be used as proof that SC2 is shrinking. GOM owns a studio and they are going to use the studio to show more things that SC2. As for Blizzard, they make mistakes, but their launch games are also not the games we remember. SC prime was not amazing in any way and was completely broken, with no replays, shit maps and terrible balance. D2 prime was not the game people remember and love today. It was the expansions that made those games great, as Blizzard refined the games down to the experience we remember today. Your entitled to your opinion but you have little evidence to back it up beyond a few leaps of logic like GOM showing more than just SC2 and personal feelings. If you are going to express that opinion, that is fine, but don’t expect the people who strongly disagree to ignore it. There is a growing group of TL members that are extremely tired of the negativity in the community and are expressing that opinion as well. I am one of them and I see the same people expressing their frustration with the negativity. Indeed, it is just leaps in logic upon my part, and I absolutely don't expect everyone to view it the same way I do. However, I also would like to know your opinion on exactly why there has been so much negativity surrounding SC2 lately? That doesn't just happen for no reason at all, some people are just starting to see all the cracks, imo. Ok, last one and then I must do work. The negativity is coming from… the internet. People are negative on the internet because they are. Look at the launch of new Sim City, people are whining about how the game is being dumbed down and is bad. Look at the new Devil May Cry, more whining. But if you read up on those games, they got great reviews or have great feedback from people playing it, but still people bitch and whine. People claiming that the gaming is dying, that Apple slipping because they had less profitable quarter. Netflix is going under, TV is going to go away forever. Bookstores are going to disappear. Everyone thinks the sky is falling on the internet. Its world wide, anyone can find 15 people to agree with them on the internet and post a lot about something. But that doesn’t make it true. So that's it then, the internet is to blame? People are just inherently negative, and that's all there is to it? Grasping at straws are we? It is a perfect counter argument to “People are negative about SC2, so there must be a reason they are like that. And that reason is the game is bad and it is dying.” Once again, your proof for SC2 is dying is that people are negative about it on internet forums and the twitch numbers are sometimes lower than LoL. Uhh no, Twitch numbers have been sinking steadily for SC2. That's my point. And saying they're "sometimes" lower than LoL is a pretty big stretch, try something along the lines of, sometimes during major finals SC2 gets close to LoL's average viewer numbers. For instance, LoL is at 116k viewers right now, and WoL is at 5.8k. Ok, see this is why you will never win this argument, because your evidence sucks and your wrong. Right now, the LCS is live, which the LoL main competitive league run by Riot, which always has around 100K viewers. Now there is nothing on for SC2 and all the most popular streamers aren’t on or and there is no major event right now. Stop using shitty information to make your point and then claiming that other times your information is fine when people point out that it is shitty. Blizzard’s Vengeance stream had 40K viewers to watch a show match and a trailer. Even without the LCS, there are always at least 50k viewers or more. TSM members get 25k+ viewers on a daily basis. SC2 seems to fit around 8k-15k on average. And no I'm not "wrong", go look for yourself instead of mindlessly attacking me for no apparent reason. Only one Dota 2 player breaks 5k viewers, sorry guys Dota 2 is dying.
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On March 02 2013 00:42 AnomalySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2013 00:39 Plansix wrote:On March 02 2013 00:30 AnomalySC2 wrote:On March 02 2013 00:26 Plansix wrote:On March 02 2013 00:23 AnomalySC2 wrote:On March 02 2013 00:19 Plansix wrote:On March 02 2013 00:09 AnomalySC2 wrote:On March 01 2013 23:52 Plansix wrote:On March 01 2013 23:37 AnomalySC2 wrote:On March 01 2013 23:07 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Artosis said it best on SotG when he said “how can you have an opinion that’s so wrong. Opinions aren’t supposed to wrong.” The sale of IGN has nothing to do with SC2, but more that News Corp was looking to unload an unsuccessful site that was getting its lunch eaten by Giant Bomb, Game Spot and newcomers like Total Biscuit. Because IGN was sold, IPL now was in a place where they might not have funding for a while, so they needed to pull back on their events until they found a buyer/sponsor. The number of views on SC2 has nothing to do with any of those events. Even if 200K people watch IPL6, they might not have a buyer to help them run the next event or cover the cost of their employees until they run that event.
To put it another way, IPL was put in a place where they didn’t know if any more money would be coming beyond what they had. So they are forced to go responsible route and decided not to bet all of it on a single event and hope that it was profitable enough to get them to IPL7. You don’t bet the entire business on one event, that is a terrible plan. But none of it has anything to do with SC2.
Sorry, I just don't agree. I've grown up with Blizzard games, I know just how much higher quality the games that both BW and even TFT offered when compared to SC2. Imo Blizzard dropped the ball with SC2, and most recently D3. I still stand by my statement, if SC2 offered games that were as exciting or intense as most Professional BW games, then viewers would rise or at least stay consistent. Instead, we have had the scene slowly but surely shrinking over the past 3 years, and now IPL is simply not able to sustain itself any longer. I also think Gom expanding their tournament selection to more than just SC2 is even more evidence, they're likely not able to sustain themselves with the small viewership either. This is even with a partnership with Blizzard, whom are still raking in plenty of cash off WoW I assume. Well I disagree and I think you are cherry picking your information in an effort to make your point. GOM has moved into a new studio and has always been open to running other games. No company that runs events is going to run one game, ever. They will always be looking to expand their market and get more viewer. The idea one company would run SC2 until the end of time and never get involved in another game is unreasonable and simply cannot be used as proof that SC2 is shrinking. GOM owns a studio and they are going to use the studio to show more things that SC2. As for Blizzard, they make mistakes, but their launch games are also not the games we remember. SC prime was not amazing in any way and was completely broken, with no replays, shit maps and terrible balance. D2 prime was not the game people remember and love today. It was the expansions that made those games great, as Blizzard refined the games down to the experience we remember today. Your entitled to your opinion but you have little evidence to back it up beyond a few leaps of logic like GOM showing more than just SC2 and personal feelings. If you are going to express that opinion, that is fine, but don’t expect the people who strongly disagree to ignore it. There is a growing group of TL members that are extremely tired of the negativity in the community and are expressing that opinion as well. I am one of them and I see the same people expressing their frustration with the negativity. Indeed, it is just leaps in logic upon my part, and I absolutely don't expect everyone to view it the same way I do. However, I also would like to know your opinion on exactly why there has been so much negativity surrounding SC2 lately? That doesn't just happen for no reason at all, some people are just starting to see all the cracks, imo. Ok, last one and then I must do work. The negativity is coming from… the internet. People are negative on the internet because they are. Look at the launch of new Sim City, people are whining about how the game is being dumbed down and is bad. Look at the new Devil May Cry, more whining. But if you read up on those games, they got great reviews or have great feedback from people playing it, but still people bitch and whine. People claiming that the gaming is dying, that Apple slipping because they had less profitable quarter. Netflix is going under, TV is going to go away forever. Bookstores are going to disappear. Everyone thinks the sky is falling on the internet. Its world wide, anyone can find 15 people to agree with them on the internet and post a lot about something. But that doesn’t make it true. So that's it then, the internet is to blame? People are just inherently negative, and that's all there is to it? Grasping at straws are we? It is a perfect counter argument to “People are negative about SC2, so there must be a reason they are like that. And that reason is the game is bad and it is dying.” Once again, your proof for SC2 is dying is that people are negative about it on internet forums and the twitch numbers are sometimes lower than LoL. Uhh no, Twitch numbers have been sinking steadily for SC2. That's my point. And saying they're "sometimes" lower than LoL is a pretty big stretch, try something along the lines of, sometimes during major finals SC2 gets close to LoL's average viewer numbers. For instance, LoL is at 116k viewers right now, and WoL is at 5.8k. Ok, see this is why you will never win this argument, because your evidence sucks and your wrong. Right now, the LCS is live, which the LoL main competitive league run by Riot, which always has around 100K viewers. Now there is nothing on for SC2 and all the most popular streamers aren’t on or and there is no major event right now. Stop using shitty information to make your point and then claiming that other times your information is fine when people point out that it is shitty. Blizzard’s Vengeance stream had 40K viewers to watch a show match and a trailer. Even without the LCS, there are always at least 50k viewers or more. TSM members get 25k+ viewers on a daily basis. SC2 seems to fit around 8k-15k on average. And no I'm not "wrong", go look for yourself instead of mindlessly attacking me for no apparent reason.
Yeah, I am done arguing with you at this point. Clearly you will just use the point that LoL has more viewers on a daily basis and that means that SC2 is going to die. And when people just point to the same piece of evidence and claim “look the number is lower than the other number” I check out. I mean that theory flies in the face of all logic and how the world works, but you are entitled to your flawed opinion. After all, we all know that the NFL is the only sport in the US, since it has the most viewers. Baseball, Golf, tennis and hockey, those are all dying and are going to go away. All TV shows that that are not number #1, dead to the world. Music that isn’t top of the charts, will also fail.
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On March 02 2013 00:44 ratbert wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2013 00:42 AnomalySC2 wrote:On March 02 2013 00:39 Plansix wrote:On March 02 2013 00:30 AnomalySC2 wrote:On March 02 2013 00:26 Plansix wrote:On March 02 2013 00:23 AnomalySC2 wrote:On March 02 2013 00:19 Plansix wrote:On March 02 2013 00:09 AnomalySC2 wrote:On March 01 2013 23:52 Plansix wrote:On March 01 2013 23:37 AnomalySC2 wrote:
[quote]
Sorry, I just don't agree. I've grown up with Blizzard games, I know just how much higher quality the games that both BW and even TFT offered when compared to SC2. Imo Blizzard dropped the ball with SC2, and most recently D3. I still stand by my statement, if SC2 offered games that were as exciting or intense as most Professional BW games, then viewers would rise or at least stay consistent. Instead, we have had the scene slowly but surely shrinking over the past 3 years, and now IPL is simply not able to sustain itself any longer.
I also think Gom expanding their tournament selection to more than just SC2 is even more evidence, they're likely not able to sustain themselves with the small viewership either. This is even with a partnership with Blizzard, whom are still raking in plenty of cash off WoW I assume. Well I disagree and I think you are cherry picking your information in an effort to make your point. GOM has moved into a new studio and has always been open to running other games. No company that runs events is going to run one game, ever. They will always be looking to expand their market and get more viewer. The idea one company would run SC2 until the end of time and never get involved in another game is unreasonable and simply cannot be used as proof that SC2 is shrinking. GOM owns a studio and they are going to use the studio to show more things that SC2. As for Blizzard, they make mistakes, but their launch games are also not the games we remember. SC prime was not amazing in any way and was completely broken, with no replays, shit maps and terrible balance. D2 prime was not the game people remember and love today. It was the expansions that made those games great, as Blizzard refined the games down to the experience we remember today. Your entitled to your opinion but you have little evidence to back it up beyond a few leaps of logic like GOM showing more than just SC2 and personal feelings. If you are going to express that opinion, that is fine, but don’t expect the people who strongly disagree to ignore it. There is a growing group of TL members that are extremely tired of the negativity in the community and are expressing that opinion as well. I am one of them and I see the same people expressing their frustration with the negativity. Indeed, it is just leaps in logic upon my part, and I absolutely don't expect everyone to view it the same way I do. However, I also would like to know your opinion on exactly why there has been so much negativity surrounding SC2 lately? That doesn't just happen for no reason at all, some people are just starting to see all the cracks, imo. Ok, last one and then I must do work. The negativity is coming from… the internet. People are negative on the internet because they are. Look at the launch of new Sim City, people are whining about how the game is being dumbed down and is bad. Look at the new Devil May Cry, more whining. But if you read up on those games, they got great reviews or have great feedback from people playing it, but still people bitch and whine. People claiming that the gaming is dying, that Apple slipping because they had less profitable quarter. Netflix is going under, TV is going to go away forever. Bookstores are going to disappear. Everyone thinks the sky is falling on the internet. Its world wide, anyone can find 15 people to agree with them on the internet and post a lot about something. But that doesn’t make it true. So that's it then, the internet is to blame? People are just inherently negative, and that's all there is to it? Grasping at straws are we? It is a perfect counter argument to “People are negative about SC2, so there must be a reason they are like that. And that reason is the game is bad and it is dying.” Once again, your proof for SC2 is dying is that people are negative about it on internet forums and the twitch numbers are sometimes lower than LoL. Uhh no, Twitch numbers have been sinking steadily for SC2. That's my point. And saying they're "sometimes" lower than LoL is a pretty big stretch, try something along the lines of, sometimes during major finals SC2 gets close to LoL's average viewer numbers. For instance, LoL is at 116k viewers right now, and WoL is at 5.8k. Ok, see this is why you will never win this argument, because your evidence sucks and your wrong. Right now, the LCS is live, which the LoL main competitive league run by Riot, which always has around 100K viewers. Now there is nothing on for SC2 and all the most popular streamers aren’t on or and there is no major event right now. Stop using shitty information to make your point and then claiming that other times your information is fine when people point out that it is shitty. Blizzard’s Vengeance stream had 40K viewers to watch a show match and a trailer. Even without the LCS, there are always at least 50k viewers or more. TSM members get 25k+ viewers on a daily basis. SC2 seems to fit around 8k-15k on average. and what does that say about the sustainability of IPL? that's right. absolutely nothing.
well LoL has been ipl's main game for ages.
so there has to be some link in there
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hey proleague. can we get some Doa + Catspajamas going?
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Staring at twitter hoping to see updates is like watching paint dry!!! i could care less about the speculation going on in this forum, where are some facts!?!?!
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On March 02 2013 00:50 Gamegene wrote:
hey proleague. can we get some Doa + Catspajamas going?
Far and away the best casting duo in sc2 history.
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On March 02 2013 00:50 Gamegene wrote:
hey proleague. can we get some Doa + Catspajamas going?
I second this dont really enjoy the current casting duo.
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On March 02 2013 00:45 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2013 00:20 AnomalySC2 wrote:On March 02 2013 00:14 Plansix wrote:On March 02 2013 00:07 AnomalySC2 wrote:On March 01 2013 23:45 DarkLordOlli wrote:On March 01 2013 23:43 AnomalySC2 wrote:On March 01 2013 23:41 eviltomahawk wrote:On March 01 2013 23:39 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Funny because GOM just moved to a bigger, better, more expensive studio and their production for SC2 has only been getting better. That doesn't make sense. Their production costs money. Adding games is a sign that they're doing well, not the other way around. I also like to add that GOM ran Warcraft 3, World of Warcraft, and A.V.A. leagues alongside their BW leagues back in the day. GOMtv running multiple leagues for multiple games is hardly unusual. 3 years of running only SC2 tournaments, and now that viewer numbers are way down across the board, they start to expand their tournament roster. Yep, not unusual. Where exactly are you getting their viewership numbers from? Also how do you explain their new expensive studio with that logic? I'm getting my viewer numbers from Twitch.tv, and the general amount of activity forums see relating to SC2 events. Those are terrible metrics to gauge SC2 by and doing is incredibly naïve. That is like gauging the popularity of a TV show by the activity on forums and number of views on their youtube page. I watch SC2 on my TV and don’t post in live update threads often. You can’t just taking the limited about of front facing information available and then make a grand statement like SC2 is dying. And if you do, be prepared to be shouted down by people who know better. But I have wasted enough time on the forums this morning. I have appeals that must be dismissed and motions for sanctions to draft. Ok and I'm also just factoring in, you know, the closure of one of SC2's largest tournaments and all the player retirements/team closures or mergers that have happened recently....... You're obviously not that bright of an individual so I'll try and make this simple for you. You seem to be one of the people who highlights and bookmarks every single negative thing, and fails to note the important positives/facts. Almost every single team that has closed in the past 6 months has been a result of poor management, and not "SC2 Dying". In fact, we've had an equal number, if not greater number of teams pop up in the last few months on a positive track compared to the mismanaged teams that have fallen to the wayside. Sponsorship of teams is also UP despite what you'd probably like to believe. Almost every single retirement in the past 6 months has either been attributed to lack of relevancy in the scene, or no desire to make the switch to Heart of the Swarm, not "SC2 Dying". IPL 6's closure is not due to "SC2 Dying" which would be a mind-numbingly retarded assumption in the first place considering under the previous NewsCorp ownership they were already set to do 4 events this year with the GOAL of breaking even by the last event, but rather due to the fact that IGN as a whole is being set up on a market and therefore needs to be "groomed" and that means trimming excess fat in the budget, namely the flashy IPL division. People like you are GOING to be the reason SC2 declines if you continue to put your blinders on and tunnel vision on the negative, so I would like to kindly suggest that you take them off and look at the big picture before you make yourself look even more foolish and drag some more poor, idiotic hive-mind followers onto the "SC2 is dying" train.
Your entire post is utter bs, especially the parts about all the teams that closed, only closed, because they were managed poorly (LOL). However, I'd like to hone in specifically on the underlined part.
By saying skeptical posters, such as myself, are GOING to be the reason SC2 declines, implies that SC2 hasn't already declined. Which is purely false. The only tournament to see any growth in viewership is Dreamhack, the rest all have vastly lower viewer numbers according to Twitch.tv. No viewers, no money. No money, players/teams/tournaments start to go under, which is exactly what has been happening lately.
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On March 02 2013 00:45 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2013 00:20 AnomalySC2 wrote:On March 02 2013 00:14 Plansix wrote:On March 02 2013 00:07 AnomalySC2 wrote:On March 01 2013 23:45 DarkLordOlli wrote:On March 01 2013 23:43 AnomalySC2 wrote:On March 01 2013 23:41 eviltomahawk wrote:On March 01 2013 23:39 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Funny because GOM just moved to a bigger, better, more expensive studio and their production for SC2 has only been getting better. That doesn't make sense. Their production costs money. Adding games is a sign that they're doing well, not the other way around. I also like to add that GOM ran Warcraft 3, World of Warcraft, and A.V.A. leagues alongside their BW leagues back in the day. GOMtv running multiple leagues for multiple games is hardly unusual. 3 years of running only SC2 tournaments, and now that viewer numbers are way down across the board, they start to expand their tournament roster. Yep, not unusual. Where exactly are you getting their viewership numbers from? Also how do you explain their new expensive studio with that logic? I'm getting my viewer numbers from Twitch.tv, and the general amount of activity forums see relating to SC2 events. Those are terrible metrics to gauge SC2 by and doing is incredibly naïve. That is like gauging the popularity of a TV show by the activity on forums and number of views on their youtube page. I watch SC2 on my TV and don’t post in live update threads often. You can’t just taking the limited about of front facing information available and then make a grand statement like SC2 is dying. And if you do, be prepared to be shouted down by people who know better. But I have wasted enough time on the forums this morning. I have appeals that must be dismissed and motions for sanctions to draft. Ok and I'm also just factoring in, you know, the closure of one of SC2's largest tournaments and all the player retirements/team closures or mergers that have happened recently....... You're obviously not that bright of an individual so I'll try and make this simple for you. You seem to be one of the people who highlights and bookmarks every single negative thing, and fails to note the important positives/facts. Almost every single team that has closed in the past 6 months has been a result of poor management, and not "SC2 Dying". In fact, we've had an equal number, if not greater number of teams pop up in the last few months on a positive track compared to the mismanaged teams that have fallen to the wayside. Sponsorship of teams is also UP despite what you'd probably like to believe. Almost every single retirement in the past 6 months has either been attributed to lack of relevancy in the scene, or no desire to make the switch to Heart of the Swarm, not "SC2 Dying". IPL 6's closure is not due to "SC2 Dying" which would be a mind-numbingly retarded assumption in the first place considering under the previous NewsCorp ownership they were already set to do 4 events this year with the GOAL of breaking even by the last event, but rather due to the fact that IGN as a whole is being set up on a market and therefore needs to be "groomed" and that means trimming excess fat in the budget, namely the flashy IPL division. People like you are GOING to be the reason SC2 declines if you continue to put your blinders on and tunnel vision on the negative, so I would like to kindly suggest that you take them off and look at the big picture before you make yourself look even more foolish and drag some more poor, idiotic hive-mind followers onto the "SC2 is dying" train.
You could at least be civil with your response. I'm not one to buy into the whole 'SC2 is dying zomg' thing either, but even you have to admit that, compared with the big events of 2011, 2012 (MLG Columbus, Dreamhack Winter 2011, etc., crowds, tournament viewership numbers, the whole nine yards have gotten smaller. That's not to say that the scene is dying out, but it is smaller than it used to be. Just compare viewership numbers between TSL 3 and TSL 4.
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On March 02 2013 00:53 yeaitooted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2013 00:50 Gamegene wrote:
hey proleague. can we get some Doa + Catspajamas going? I second this dont really enjoy the current casting duo.
I third this motion. All who oppose please say "nay". ... The "ayes" have it. The motion carries. I declare this motion to take effect immediately.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
wow, this Anomaly guy sure knows how to trash a thread.
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On March 02 2013 00:54 AnomalySC2 wrote:
Your entire post is utter bs, especially the parts about all the teams that closed, only closed, because they were managed poorly (LOL). However, I'd like to hone in specifically on the underlined part.
You mean to tell me you can honestly, with a straight face, tell me that teams like Eclypsia, mTw, SlayerS, Old Quantic, and apeX were managed well and took the best opportunities they could? You're either delusional or you actually believe everything you read on the internet in press releases. I'm not sure which is worse, especially because you're naive enough to think the only reasons teams would merge is due to financial problems.
By saying skeptical posters, such as myself, are GOING to be the reason SC2 declines, implies that SC2 hasn't already declined. Which is purely false. The only tournament to see any growth in viewership is Dreamhack, the rest all have vastly lower viewer numbers according to Twitch.tv. No viewers, no money. No money, players/teams/tournaments start to go under.
Most of the industry, unlike yourself, is able to realize that SC2 is currently in the lull of a mid-expansion switch, combined with the fact that it's the start of the year and the 2013 tournament circuit has yet to begin in full swing. Sitting here saying "SC2 is dead guys, nothing to see here, lets all go back to Call of Duty!" is going to be what actually permanently harms the scene.
Right now, most of the playerbase is waiting for HotS Retail Release before the circuit kicks back into an upswing and to everyone that currently puts money into the growth of eSports it's pretty blatantly apparent.
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Well, this thread has turned to trash. Hopefully we get news soon.
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On March 02 2013 01:01 marvellosity wrote:
wow, this Anomaly guy sure knows how to trash a thread.
A thread about the cancellation of a major SC2 tournament. You were expecting everyone to be all happy and cheerful about it in here? Specifically someone (that someone being me), whom called it in the last IPL thread and was absolutely assaulted on a personal level by about 5 individuals for connecting the dots.
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On March 02 2013 00:54 refmac_cys.cys wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2013 00:45 VirgilSC2 wrote:On March 02 2013 00:20 AnomalySC2 wrote:On March 02 2013 00:14 Plansix wrote:On March 02 2013 00:07 AnomalySC2 wrote:On March 01 2013 23:45 DarkLordOlli wrote:On March 01 2013 23:43 AnomalySC2 wrote:On March 01 2013 23:41 eviltomahawk wrote:On March 01 2013 23:39 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Funny because GOM just moved to a bigger, better, more expensive studio and their production for SC2 has only been getting better. That doesn't make sense. Their production costs money. Adding games is a sign that they're doing well, not the other way around. I also like to add that GOM ran Warcraft 3, World of Warcraft, and A.V.A. leagues alongside their BW leagues back in the day. GOMtv running multiple leagues for multiple games is hardly unusual. 3 years of running only SC2 tournaments, and now that viewer numbers are way down across the board, they start to expand their tournament roster. Yep, not unusual. Where exactly are you getting their viewership numbers from? Also how do you explain their new expensive studio with that logic? I'm getting my viewer numbers from Twitch.tv, and the general amount of activity forums see relating to SC2 events. Those are terrible metrics to gauge SC2 by and doing is incredibly naïve. That is like gauging the popularity of a TV show by the activity on forums and number of views on their youtube page. I watch SC2 on my TV and don’t post in live update threads often. You can’t just taking the limited about of front facing information available and then make a grand statement like SC2 is dying. And if you do, be prepared to be shouted down by people who know better. But I have wasted enough time on the forums this morning. I have appeals that must be dismissed and motions for sanctions to draft. Ok and I'm also just factoring in, you know, the closure of one of SC2's largest tournaments and all the player retirements/team closures or mergers that have happened recently....... You're obviously not that bright of an individual so I'll try and make this simple for you. You seem to be one of the people who highlights and bookmarks every single negative thing, and fails to note the important positives/facts. Almost every single team that has closed in the past 6 months has been a result of poor management, and not "SC2 Dying". In fact, we've had an equal number, if not greater number of teams pop up in the last few months on a positive track compared to the mismanaged teams that have fallen to the wayside. Sponsorship of teams is also UP despite what you'd probably like to believe. Almost every single retirement in the past 6 months has either been attributed to lack of relevancy in the scene, or no desire to make the switch to Heart of the Swarm, not "SC2 Dying". IPL 6's closure is not due to "SC2 Dying" which would be a mind-numbingly retarded assumption in the first place considering under the previous NewsCorp ownership they were already set to do 4 events this year with the GOAL of breaking even by the last event, but rather due to the fact that IGN as a whole is being set up on a market and therefore needs to be "groomed" and that means trimming excess fat in the budget, namely the flashy IPL division. People like you are GOING to be the reason SC2 declines if you continue to put your blinders on and tunnel vision on the negative, so I would like to kindly suggest that you take them off and look at the big picture before you make yourself look even more foolish and drag some more poor, idiotic hive-mind followers onto the "SC2 is dying" train. You could at least be civil with your response. I'm not one to buy into the whole 'SC2 is dying zomg' thing either, but even you have to admit that, compared with the big events of 2011, 2012 (MLG Columbus, Dreamhack Winter 2011, etc., crowds, tournament viewership numbers, the whole nine yards have gotten smaller. That's not to say that the scene is dying out, but it is smaller than it used to be. Just compare viewership numbers between TSL 3 and TSL 4.
The two events we had this year (IronSquid and IEM Katowice) were bigger and better than most of what we saw in 2011 and 2012.
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EPT
