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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-02 03:36:54
March 02 2018 03:35 GMT
#199921
So you are saying that you totally believe the claims put forth in a lawsuit specifically designed to argue his case and not prove any defenses for google? Because he has not proven his claims to be true.

You could be right. But the dude could also be a bad employee that blames minorities for taking his job. But you can take him at face value at if you want believe him. I do not and will wait to see how this all plays out.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
mozoku
Profile Joined September 2012
United States708 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-02 04:06:15
March 02 2018 03:39 GMT
#199922
Are you deliberately ignoring the corroboration by multiple independent sources from the WSJ + Damore?

Do you even require one-fifth this standard of evidence to buy into the average NYT/WaPo leak about the Trump administration?


Even if you're okay with absolute discrimination against whites (which is a morally awful position, but w/e for now), how is this not a huge injustice to Asians? Their college admissions are waaay harder than everyone else, they're underrepresented in law schools, they primarily face a horrible lottery-based immigration system, and then they face employment discrimination when they apply for jobs. If you're an Asian contemplating emigration to the US, is there any way America could make them feel less welcome?

Nobody in politics gives a shit about defending their interests. The GOP has too many racists to help them, and Dems obviously only make noise for groups from whom they think they can help them with elections.

Will anyone condemn YouTube for that, at least? If you can't see there's a problem with how Asians are treated, I have no idea how I'm supposed to see you as someone interested in fairness instead of a simple Dem puppet.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-02 04:09:57
March 02 2018 03:54 GMT
#199923
Are we talking about the same article? Because it says “some of his claims...” Not all of his claims. It also says that google is being sued for allowing a woman being discriminated against. Did you miss that part too? Or does that lawsuit not count?

I see no reason to take this article as some sort final proof that Google is discriminating against white men. It might be proof they have a completely fucked office culture, which wouldn’t shock me.

Edit: lol “why doesnt everyone agree with my assessment of this grave injustice and validate my outrage”
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
mozoku
Profile Joined September 2012
United States708 Posts
March 02 2018 04:08 GMT
#199924
On March 02 2018 12:54 Plansix wrote:
Are we talking about the same article? Because it says “some of his claims...” Not all of his claims. It also says that google is being sued for allowing a woman being discriminated against. Did you miss that part too? Or does that lawsuit not count?

I see no reason to take this article as some sort final proof that Google is discriminating against white men. It might be proof they have a completely fucked office culture, which wouldn’t shock me.

Okay, I actually believe you're just having a brain fart moment.
People familiar with YouTube’s and Google’s hiring practices in interviews corroborated some of the lawsuit’s allegations, including the hiring freeze of white and Asian technical employees, and YouTube’s use of quotas.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
March 02 2018 04:12 GMT
#199925
Quotas are generally bad and it’s a shitty way to hire people. It would be bad if it turned out to be true.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 02 2018 04:16 GMT
#199926
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
March 02 2018 04:19 GMT
#199927
That's also the kind of wording that's a lawyer's wet dream, which means it's likely not nearly that clear cut. In the same vein that you wouldn't see "don't hire black people" written anywhere explicitly.

Your link is also incorrect, and WSJ is paywalled as well? So I can't even read the article.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 02 2018 04:21 GMT
#199928
The outdoor retailer REI has suspended its relationship with a company that supplies some of its most popular brands, including CamelBak and Giro, because the conglomerate also manufactures guns and ammunition.

REI said on Thursday that it would place a hold on any future orders with Vista Outdoor, a conglomerate that recently acquired several popular adventure brands that have long been featured in REI locations. But Vista Outdoor also owns Savage Arms, a gun manufacturer and retailer that stocks several models of semi-automatic “modern sporting rifles.” Such manufacturers are facing backlash after the school shooting in Parkland, Florida, that left 17 people dead.

The Seattle-based REI said it had been in discussions with Vista Outdoor for the past week, and that the two companies’ relationship would be put on hold since REI learned that Vista Outdoor would not make a public statement “that outlines a clear plan of action” regarding common-sense gun control measures.

“REI does not sell guns. We believe that it is the job of companies that manufacture and sell guns and ammunition to work towards common sense solutions that prevent the type of violence that happened in Florida last month,” REI said in a statement. “We have decided to place a hold on future orders of products that Vista sells through REI while we assess how Vista proceeds. Companies are showing they can contribute if they are willing to lead. We encourage Vista to do just that.”

Numerous petitions have been calling for some of the nation’s biggest retailers, including REI, to end their relationships with gun manufacturers and firearm lobbying groups like the National Rifle Association. This week, Dick’s Sporting Goods and Walmart said they would no longer sell guns to anyone under the age of 21. Dick’s also said it would immediately end all sales of assault-style rifles and high-capacity magazines in its stores.

Companies including Delta, Hertz and MetLife have also terminated their relationships with the NRA in the weeks following the Parkland shooting.

CamelBak, one of the companies owned by Vista Outdoors, said efforts to boycott the brand were misplaced after another outdoor retailer, Canada’s Mountain Equipment Co-op, announced that it would suspend orders of the company’s products.

“Our brand falls within the Outdoor Products segment of our company, which operates separately from Vista Outdoor’s Shooting Sports segment,” CamelBak said in a statement. “Since 1989, CamelBak has been committed to forever changing the way people hydrate and perform. Our passion and love for the outdoors is unchanged. We are deeply committed to the individuals and communities we serve and we proudly partner with organizations to promote the enjoyment of the outdoors.“

REI has been no stranger to political statements in recent months. CEO Jerry Stritzke said he was “mad as hell” after the Trump administration decided to dramatically scale back two national monuments in Utah ― Bears Ears, which was cut by about 85 percent, and Grand Staircase-Escalante, which was reduced roughly by half.

“REI will not retreat from our strong belief that there is common ground in the outdoors,” the company said at the time. “We will continue to pursue bipartisan support to protect public lands and prevent death by a thousand cuts. REI members can be assured that we will honor our shared passion for our public lands, dedicating time and resources to leaving them healthier for future generations.”


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
March 02 2018 04:23 GMT
#199929
I think I'm perfectly content to just let the courts hear their argument and make a ruling on this one rather than free associate about who is in the wrong.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-02 04:27:12
March 02 2018 04:25 GMT
#199930
On March 02 2018 13:19 WolfintheSheep wrote:
That's also the kind of wording that's a lawyer's wet dream, which means it's likely not nearly that clear cut. In the same vein that you wouldn't see "don't hire black people" written anywhere explicitly.

Your link is also incorrect, and WSJ is paywalled as well? So I can't even read the article.

I find it hard to believe that there an email at google telling HR there is a “freeze” on hiring white or Asian people. But I bet there is a creative attorney out there planning on arguing that googles diversity program was an “effective” freeze.

Edit: I am will wait for the discovery. Google could be that dumb. But that is staggering levels of stupid.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
mozoku
Profile Joined September 2012
United States708 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-02 04:43:48
March 02 2018 04:28 GMT
#199931
On March 02 2018 13:19 WolfintheSheep wrote:
That's also the kind of wording that's a lawyer's wet dream, which means it's likely not nearly that clear cut. In the same vein that you wouldn't see "don't hire black people" written anywhere explicitly.

Your link is also incorrect, and WSJ is paywalled as well? So I can't even read the article.

I quoted the entire article already, and quoted the relevant passage twice. The paywall is irrelevant because you already have the article. The relevant passage isn't from a lawyer, it's from the article.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you missed my original post, but otherwise this is a prominent example of the reading comprehension that xDaunt correctly whines about regularly.

We have at least 4 independent sources alleging diversity queues, publicly known policies from Google that align with the practice, and it comes from a company that has had complaints about its overbearing political culture in the past. Furthermore, I fail to see how there's any reasonable basis on which to doubt the Journal's source credibility for this article. Investors seem worried as well.

I agree that we should let the courts hear it out before a legal decision is made, but considering Plansix is infamous for saying "this thread isn't a court", the median poster here believes 95% of single source Trump administration leaks from antagonistic media outlets, and is perfectly comfortable with Twitter mob justice on #MeToo, forgive me for having a laugh here when these same people are demanding ~5x the evidence standard all of a sudden when such unofficial evidence points against their favored political groups.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
March 02 2018 04:34 GMT
#199932
On March 02 2018 13:16 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
https://twitter.com/JuddLegum/status/969410653676015616

This is a particularly idiotic tweet. Yeah, let's ignore the fact that Trump ran on a platform of increased protectionism (particularly as it pertained to the steel industry) and pretend that his tariff proposal is something that he conjured up on a whim after seeing a commercial on FoxNews. You should be embarrassed for posting this.
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-02 04:41:23
March 02 2018 04:40 GMT
#199933
On March 02 2018 13:28 mozoku wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2018 13:19 WolfintheSheep wrote:
That's also the kind of wording that's a lawyer's wet dream, which means it's likely not nearly that clear cut. In the same vein that you wouldn't see "don't hire black people" written anywhere explicitly.

Your link is also incorrect, and WSJ is paywalled as well? So I can't even read the article.

I quoted the entire article already, and quoted the relevant passage twice. The paywall is irrelevant because you already have the article. The relevant passage isn't from a lawyer, it's from the article.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you missed my original post, but otherwise this is a prominent example of the reading comprehension that xDaunt correctly whines about regularly.

Most people here post snippets of articles. Apparently you didn't, but I had no way of knowing that.

And yes, I know a lawyer didn't write that passage. Hence what I said, it's not that clear cut.

Anyway, in the meantime I found a USA Today article that had the same thing, and isn't paywalled:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2018/03/01/google-accused-lawsuit-excluding-white-and-asian-men-hiring-boost-diversity/387532002/
Wilberg also alleges that management deleted emails and other records of diversity requirements. He says he was fired in November for complaining to his managers and human resources about the "illegal and discriminatory hiring practices."

And there's the line between bullshit lawsuit and corporate illegal activity. The discovery process will find if there were deleted emails, but I find it hard to believe they scrubbed a year's worth (or several years?) of an entire department's marching orders.


(on a somewhat related note, I find it amusing there's another lawsuit from someone fired in the same month for the exact opposite reasons: https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2018/02/21/google-engineer-says-he-fired-fighting-racism-sexism/361452002/)
Average means I'm better than half of you.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-02 04:44:09
March 02 2018 04:43 GMT
#199934
Have we considered that google just fires people if they talk about discrimination in any way, regardless of skin color or gender? Then everyone gets to be right.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
March 02 2018 04:57 GMT
#199935
On March 02 2018 10:49 ticklishmusic wrote:
Interestingly, PwC (big accounting/ professional services firm) is being sued for ageism by two middle aged guys who insist that on-campus recruiting ruined their chances of getting jobs there.

+ Show Spoiler [ because WSJ paywall] +


Hundreds of large employers travel to college campuses each year to recruit entry-level workers, a tradition two rejected PricewaterhouseCoopers applicants argued this week hurts the chances for men and women over 40 to land those same jobs.

Attorneys for the unsuccessful candidates—men who applied to PwC dozens of times in their late 40s and early 50s—aimed to convince San Francisco District Judge Jon Tigar on Tuesday that 14,000 older workers were similarly disadvantaged by the accounting firm’s system of finding applicants at university career fairs and school-affiliated job websites, over a four-year period.

PwC disproportionately hires younger workers for its tax and assurance business units, steers more seasoned applicants into part-time and seasonal roles, and “fosters an age-conscious workplace in which youth is highly valued,” the litigants alleged.

In court, PwC argued its hiring practices are merit-based, and that campus recruiting is an efficient and effective approach used by many large employers. Kirkland & Ellis LLP attorney Emily Nicklin said the firm hires less than 5% of the 300,000 applicants who seek its U.S. positions annually.

The company’s hiring decisions have “nothing to do with age,” Ms. Nicklin said. Claims that older applicants are steered away from full-time roles are false, she added.

Professional-services firms such as PwC, Accenture PLC and McKinsey & Co. are among the largest employers of college finance and accounting majors and graduates of master’s in business administration programs.

London-based PwC is a top recruiter for M.B.A.s from elite schools such as University of Chicago’s Booth School of Business and Carnegie Mellon University’s Tepper School of Business. The firm ranked among the top 25 most attractive employers for M.B.A.s in part because of its culture and advancement opportunities for new hires, according to a 2017 survey by employer-branding consultancy Universum.

The case highlights a demographic clash in the job market, coinciding with technology-driven changes that affect the way Americans work—factors that will continue to pressure employers in the future, say management researchers and economists. The case could also affect the way large companies recruit top talent from business schools if the courts decide a hiring practice discriminates, even unintentionally, against older applicants.

Millennials, who were born between 1981 and 1997, recently overwhelmed the number of 35- to 50-year-olds in the workforce, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. However, the bureau’s economists project that the number of workers over 65 will grow faster than any other age group in the coming years, as Americans delay retirement longer.

That shift has stoked subtle stereotypes about older workers’ performance and willingness to learn, which can have tangible effects on their careers, said Michael North, assistant professor of management and organizations at New York University’s Stern School of Business.

A February 2017 report by the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco found that younger job applicants were more likely to receive callbacks from employers than older ones, in an experiment using fake résumés.

Federal complaints of age discrimination filed to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission and lawsuits by workers who say they were pushed out have become more common in recent years. But cases like the one against PwC, which applies the federal Age Discrimination in Employment Act to job applicants, have little legal precedent.

An engineer who was rejected by Alphabet Inc.’s Google sued the tech firm for age discrimination, which the company denies. That case is continuing, but a federal judge in January said in a related case that it is unclear whether the federal age-discrimination law applies to the hiring process.

Court documents filed ahead of Tuesday’s hearing offer a rare glimpse into the well-oiled machine of recruiting by privately held consulting and accounting firms such as PwC.

In dozens of pages of corporate policies, interviews, and emails between recruiters, the litigants paint a portrait of a company where older and younger applicants seeking jobs as associates, experienced associates and senior associates often have different fates. The firm hired about 18% of the applicants who were under 40 to its tax and assurance business, compared with 3% of candidates over that age, according to a statistical analysis of more than 100,000 candidates submitted by the plaintiffs, using PwC data.

Ms. Nicklin called the statistical analysis “fundamentally flawed.”

A PwC spokeswoman said half of the company’s full-time hires in 2018 will come from campus-recruiting efforts, and candidates with relevant work experience will make up the other half.

The judge is expected to decide whether to add the roughly 14,000 other older workers who didn’t get job offers from PwC to the case in the coming weeks.

A ruling on whether a bias for young recruits prevented those applicants from getting jobs at PwC could be years away.


My anecdotal experience is that recruitment is just a circus. PwC didn't offer me an interview when I was doing on-campus recruiting, even though I got interviews with a lot of similar if not more prestigious firms. Recruiters are people, and they're just as derpy as anyone else.


You were definitely entitled to an interview with PwC.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
March 02 2018 04:58 GMT
#199936


Yet another reason to ignore anything that comes out of the house Intelligence Committee.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-02 05:04:19
March 02 2018 05:03 GMT
#199937
On March 02 2018 13:28 mozoku wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2018 13:19 WolfintheSheep wrote:
That's also the kind of wording that's a lawyer's wet dream, which means it's likely not nearly that clear cut. In the same vein that you wouldn't see "don't hire black people" written anywhere explicitly.

Your link is also incorrect, and WSJ is paywalled as well? So I can't even read the article.

I quoted the entire article already, and quoted the relevant passage twice. The paywall is irrelevant because you already have the article. The relevant passage isn't from a lawyer, it's from the article.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you missed my original post, but otherwise this is a prominent example of the reading comprehension that xDaunt correctly whines about regularly.

We have at least 4 independent sources alleging diversity queues, publicly known policies from Google that align with the practice, and it comes from a company that has had complaints about its overbearing political culture in the past. Furthermore, I fail to see how there's any reasonable basis on which to doubt the Journal's source credibility for this article. Investors seem worried as well.

I agree that we should let the courts hear it out before a legal decision is made, but considering Plansix is infamous for saying "this thread isn't a court", the median poster here believes 95% of single source Trump administration leaks from antagonistic media outlets, and is perfectly comfortable with Twitter mob justice on #MeToo, forgive me for having a laugh here when these same people are demanding ~5x the evidence standard all of a sudden when such unofficial evidence points against their favored political groups.


If I'm reading this right, the worst case scenario is Google is employing affirmative action in its hiring. The overrepresented groups that already have an abundance of job opportunities are being disfavored, and they are hiring minorities and women instead. The problem with the argument that Google's action here is morally bad is that the groups being "discriminated" against are already advantaged and overrepresented.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-02 05:23:06
March 02 2018 05:19 GMT
#199938
I doubt this is the reason she resigned as how will she pay her legal bills? Unless Trump's legal team is also covering her as well.



But in recent weeks, Hicks became disillusioned with her job, people who’ve spoken with her told me. Her closeness to Trump meant she was also nearest to the hottest flames of the fires that have burned in the West Wing, the most intense being the Russia probe. Hicks has racked up substantial legal fees, one source told me. “She’s in immense personal jeopardy,” one Republican close to the White House said yesterday. “This is a sign the Mueller investigation is a lot more serious than any one of us thought.” (Hicks and the White House declined to comment.)

The tipping point for Hicks was more personal, sources said. She was “emotionally overwhelmed” by seeing herself in the headlines during her boyfriend Rob Porter’s domestic abuse scandal, one Hicks friend told me. Hicks expressed disbelief at the allegations that Porter beat his ex-wives. She’s recently told people she’s no longer dating Porter.

Another factor in her exit was her deteriorating relationship with Chief of Staff John Kelly. “He’s a wartime general and he’s turned the West Wing into a war zone,” the friend recalled Hicks complaining. Kelly blamed Hicks for orchestrating the White House’s defense of Porter, given her personal conflict in the story. According to two sources, in recent days Kelly informed Hicks he wanted Mercedes Schlapp, a senior strategic-communications adviser, to play a bigger role in the press office. “Well, if that’s what Kelly wants, it’s his call,” Hicks said, according to a person who spoke with her. Schlapp, married to Matt Schlapp, head of the American Conservative Union, which runs CPAC, is now a leading candidate for Hicks’s job.

Hicks’s decision to leave is the latest sign of how adept Kelly has been at reversing his own fortunes. Just weeks ago, the chief was on the ropes, his reputation for straight shooting in dire danger. It was revealed he’d promoted Porter even after he knew about the domestic abuse; and it was Kelly who helped blow up immigration-reform talks by calling DACA recipients “lazy.” “You know how Rahm Emanuel said, ‘Never let a good crisis go to waste?’ That’s what Kelly did,” a Republican close to the White House said. But at seemingly his lowest moment, Kelly pulled off a masterstroke by promulgating new security-clearance rules that neutralized his biggest West Wing rivals: Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump. “The Jivanka team is crumbling,” a person close to the White House said. A day before Hicks resigned, Kushner’s spokesman Josh Raffel announced he, too, was quitting. Between the relentless chaos of the West Wing and the looming Mueller investigation, even the most committed staffers are re-evaluating their options.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
March 02 2018 05:20 GMT
#199939
On March 02 2018 14:03 Doodsmack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2018 13:28 mozoku wrote:
On March 02 2018 13:19 WolfintheSheep wrote:
That's also the kind of wording that's a lawyer's wet dream, which means it's likely not nearly that clear cut. In the same vein that you wouldn't see "don't hire black people" written anywhere explicitly.

Your link is also incorrect, and WSJ is paywalled as well? So I can't even read the article.

I quoted the entire article already, and quoted the relevant passage twice. The paywall is irrelevant because you already have the article. The relevant passage isn't from a lawyer, it's from the article.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you missed my original post, but otherwise this is a prominent example of the reading comprehension that xDaunt correctly whines about regularly.

We have at least 4 independent sources alleging diversity queues, publicly known policies from Google that align with the practice, and it comes from a company that has had complaints about its overbearing political culture in the past. Furthermore, I fail to see how there's any reasonable basis on which to doubt the Journal's source credibility for this article. Investors seem worried as well.

I agree that we should let the courts hear it out before a legal decision is made, but considering Plansix is infamous for saying "this thread isn't a court", the median poster here believes 95% of single source Trump administration leaks from antagonistic media outlets, and is perfectly comfortable with Twitter mob justice on #MeToo, forgive me for having a laugh here when these same people are demanding ~5x the evidence standard all of a sudden when such unofficial evidence points against their favored political groups.


If I'm reading this right, the worst case scenario is Google is employing affirmative action in its hiring. The overrepresented groups that already have an abundance of job opportunities are being disfavored, and they are hiring minorities and women instead. The problem with the argument that Google's action here is morally bad is that the groups being "discriminated" against are already advantaged and overrepresented.

Legally, I'm pretty sure people can't be outright excluded from the entire hiring process based on race or gender. It's one thing to favour minority groups, another thing to completely deny a group.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13938 Posts
March 02 2018 05:25 GMT
#199940
Man 10k is coming up I wonder if the threads going to get closed as the landfill is filled up for the forum.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
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