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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 9874

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4789 Posts
February 09 2018 01:17 GMT
#197461
On February 09 2018 10:12 Plansix wrote:


This sums up Rand Paul right now. And a lot of Republicans worried about the debt.


spending is different than tax cuts. he isn't the hypocrite here.

He is right that spending should be cut, but at most he'll get an overnight shutdown which in my mind doesn't count as a shutdown at all.
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
February 09 2018 01:18 GMT
#197462
Always good to see Trump staffers taking each other down.

hasuprotoss
Profile Blog Joined March 2004
United States4612 Posts
February 09 2018 01:22 GMT
#197463
On February 09 2018 10:17 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2018 10:12 Plansix wrote:
https://twitter.com/MayaMacGuineas/status/961755138548555776

This sums up Rand Paul right now. And a lot of Republicans worried about the debt.


spending is different than tax cuts. he isn't the hypocrite here.

He is right that spending should be cut, but at most he'll get an overnight shutdown which in my mind doesn't count as a shutdown at all.


He voted for a tax cut that increased the debt but isn't a hypocrite for being worried about the debt?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?viewdays=0&show_part=5 <--- Articles Section on TL
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 09 2018 01:24 GMT
#197464
On February 09 2018 10:17 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2018 10:12 Plansix wrote:
https://twitter.com/MayaMacGuineas/status/961755138548555776

This sums up Rand Paul right now. And a lot of Republicans worried about the debt.


spending is different than tax cuts. he isn't the hypocrite here.

He is right that spending should be cut, but at most he'll get an overnight shutdown which in my mind doesn't count as a shutdown at all.

That isn’t how my bills work. Or the state budget of Oklahoma and Kentucky. But these are the people who vote to go to war and cut taxes. Cutting spending means losing elections or gutting their state’s budget.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23259 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-02-09 01:31:44
February 09 2018 01:28 GMT
#197465
For something like 40 years Republicans have had an intentional strategy of raising the deficit when they are in office and then using it to demand cuts when they aren't. The more you grow the deficit (for your own interests) the more cuts you get to demand, to match.

Like many aspects of our government, Trump's presence has made things a bit more obvious.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4789 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-02-09 01:38:14
February 09 2018 01:38 GMT
#197466
On February 09 2018 10:24 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2018 10:17 Introvert wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:12 Plansix wrote:
https://twitter.com/MayaMacGuineas/status/961755138548555776

This sums up Rand Paul right now. And a lot of Republicans worried about the debt.


spending is different than tax cuts. he isn't the hypocrite here.

He is right that spending should be cut, but at most he'll get an overnight shutdown which in my mind doesn't count as a shutdown at all.

That isn’t how my bills work. Or the state budget of Oklahoma and Kentucky. But these are the people who vote to go to war and cut taxes. Cutting spending means losing elections or gutting their state’s budget.


I don't pretend to know about those states beyond the reporting I see that, to say the least, I view as suspect. Nonetheless, you do have to cut spending if you cut taxes, generally speaking. Many states that cut taxes won't cut spending, because it's unpopular. There is nothing hypocritical about supporting both tax cuts and spending cuts.There are obviously hypocrites in both parties on this, but not for that reason.
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-02-09 01:45:28
February 09 2018 01:44 GMT
#197467
On February 09 2018 10:38 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2018 10:24 Plansix wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:17 Introvert wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:12 Plansix wrote:
https://twitter.com/MayaMacGuineas/status/961755138548555776

This sums up Rand Paul right now. And a lot of Republicans worried about the debt.


spending is different than tax cuts. he isn't the hypocrite here.

He is right that spending should be cut, but at most he'll get an overnight shutdown which in my mind doesn't count as a shutdown at all.

That isn’t how my bills work. Or the state budget of Oklahoma and Kentucky. But these are the people who vote to go to war and cut taxes. Cutting spending means losing elections or gutting their state’s budget.


I don't pretend to know about those states beyond the reporting I see that, to say the least, I view as suspect. Nonetheless, you do have to cut spending if you cut taxes, generally speaking. Many states that cut taxes won't cut spending, because it's unpopular. There is nothing hypocritical about supporting both tax cuts and spending cuts.There are obviously hypocrites in both parties on this, but not for that reason.

They couldn’t keep their schools open 5 days a week. They put mileage caps on state police. Rural nursing homes closed. The problem is that when you’re talking about cutting services people rely on, which is why it’s unpopular. “Spending” isn’t some abstract thing in these cases. It impacts real people who don’t have other options.

I say this so much about conservatives, but you all want to do these things and want none of the responsibility for the outcome. From immigration to taxes.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23259 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-02-09 01:48:17
February 09 2018 01:47 GMT
#197468
On February 09 2018 10:38 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2018 10:24 Plansix wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:17 Introvert wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:12 Plansix wrote:
https://twitter.com/MayaMacGuineas/status/961755138548555776

This sums up Rand Paul right now. And a lot of Republicans worried about the debt.


spending is different than tax cuts. he isn't the hypocrite here.

He is right that spending should be cut, but at most he'll get an overnight shutdown which in my mind doesn't count as a shutdown at all.

That isn’t how my bills work. Or the state budget of Oklahoma and Kentucky. But these are the people who vote to go to war and cut taxes. Cutting spending means losing elections or gutting their state’s budget.


I don't pretend to know about those states beyond the reporting I see that, to say the least, I view as suspect. Nonetheless, you do have to cut spending if you cut taxes, generally speaking. Many states that cut taxes won't cut spending, because it's unpopular. There is nothing hypocritical about supporting both tax cuts and spending cuts.There are obviously hypocrites in both parties on this, but not for that reason.


I kinda wonder what the end game is. We know their policy concentrates more wealth at the top (wanting to eliminate the estate tax is probably the most blatant), you want less government spending and less taxes but till when?

Just as a rough estimate we recently have had ~$5-666 billion deficits, so presumably we need to cut at least that much spending, but how much more are we talking?

This also means that the concept that lower rates will bring in more/comparable revenue isn't really what Republicans/Conservatives even want. They don't want the government getting a penny more in revenue than it is now, and who knows how much less they think it should be getting.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4789 Posts
February 09 2018 01:48 GMT
#197469
On February 09 2018 10:44 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2018 10:38 Introvert wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:24 Plansix wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:17 Introvert wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:12 Plansix wrote:
https://twitter.com/MayaMacGuineas/status/961755138548555776

This sums up Rand Paul right now. And a lot of Republicans worried about the debt.


spending is different than tax cuts. he isn't the hypocrite here.

He is right that spending should be cut, but at most he'll get an overnight shutdown which in my mind doesn't count as a shutdown at all.

That isn’t how my bills work. Or the state budget of Oklahoma and Kentucky. But these are the people who vote to go to war and cut taxes. Cutting spending means losing elections or gutting their state’s budget.


I don't pretend to know about those states beyond the reporting I see that, to say the least, I view as suspect. Nonetheless, you do have to cut spending if you cut taxes, generally speaking. Many states that cut taxes won't cut spending, because it's unpopular. There is nothing hypocritical about supporting both tax cuts and spending cuts.There are obviously hypocrites in both parties on this, but not for that reason.

They couldn’t keep their schools open 5 days a week. They put mileage caps on state police. Rural nursing homes closed. The problem is that when you’re talking about cutting services people rely on, which is why it’s unpopular.

I say this so much about conservatives, but you all want to do these things and want none of the responsibility for the outcome. From immigration to taxes.


Meanwhile you manage to turn everything that happens into the GOP's fault. Nah, conservatives acknowledge cutting spending means government does less. In fact that's one of the upsides. Where on earth that last line comes from I have no idea.

People rely on the government too much, that's kind of one of the issues conservatives have had with this country for decades. "None of the responsibility" rofl. You go ahead and continue to conflate the different elements of the right and blame whichever one suits in the moment, I'll just watch.
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4789 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-02-09 01:53:04
February 09 2018 01:50 GMT
#197470
On February 09 2018 10:47 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2018 10:38 Introvert wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:24 Plansix wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:17 Introvert wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:12 Plansix wrote:
https://twitter.com/MayaMacGuineas/status/961755138548555776

This sums up Rand Paul right now. And a lot of Republicans worried about the debt.


spending is different than tax cuts. he isn't the hypocrite here.

He is right that spending should be cut, but at most he'll get an overnight shutdown which in my mind doesn't count as a shutdown at all.

That isn’t how my bills work. Or the state budget of Oklahoma and Kentucky. But these are the people who vote to go to war and cut taxes. Cutting spending means losing elections or gutting their state’s budget.


I don't pretend to know about those states beyond the reporting I see that, to say the least, I view as suspect. Nonetheless, you do have to cut spending if you cut taxes, generally speaking. Many states that cut taxes won't cut spending, because it's unpopular. There is nothing hypocritical about supporting both tax cuts and spending cuts.There are obviously hypocrites in both parties on this, but not for that reason.


I kinda wonder what the end game is. We know their policy concentrates more wealth at the top (wanting to eliminate the estate tax is probably the most blatant), you want less government spending and less taxes but till when?

Just as a rough estimate we recently have had ~$5-666 billion deficits, so presumably we need to cut at least that much spending, but how much more are we talking?

This also means that the concept that lower rates will bring in more/comparable revenue isn't really what Republicans/Conservatives even want. They don't want the government getting a penny more in revenue than it is now, and who knows how much less they think it should be getting.


The same objection could be made to the left, but with more force. You can only go so far in the "less government" direction. how much MORE should the government be doing? I've told you this before but demanding some endstate like "government revenue should be x dollars and not higher" is dumb and not an argument made in good faith. I won't ask you for Utopia and you won't ask me, seems well enough for TL at least.

+ Show Spoiler +
I could outline what a government I like would look like, but these specifics are unhelpful. Needless to say I won't do so here.
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
February 09 2018 01:56 GMT
#197471
On February 09 2018 10:38 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2018 10:24 Plansix wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:17 Introvert wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:12 Plansix wrote:
https://twitter.com/MayaMacGuineas/status/961755138548555776

This sums up Rand Paul right now. And a lot of Republicans worried about the debt.


spending is different than tax cuts. he isn't the hypocrite here.

He is right that spending should be cut, but at most he'll get an overnight shutdown which in my mind doesn't count as a shutdown at all.

That isn’t how my bills work. Or the state budget of Oklahoma and Kentucky. But these are the people who vote to go to war and cut taxes. Cutting spending means losing elections or gutting their state’s budget.


I don't pretend to know about those states beyond the reporting I see that, to say the least, I view as suspect. Nonetheless, you do have to cut spending if you cut taxes, generally speaking. Many states that cut taxes won't cut spending, because it's unpopular. There is nothing hypocritical about supporting both tax cuts and spending cuts.There are obviously hypocrites in both parties on this, but not for that reason.

it's pretty obviously hypocrisy:
he claims to care about the debt.
then he votes for a tax cut without corresponding spending cuts to pay for it.
thus he voted to increase the debt.

if he had supported a tax and spending cut that was revenue neutral, it'd be fine; but that's not what he did, hence the justifiable charge of hypocrisy.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 09 2018 01:56 GMT
#197472
On February 09 2018 10:48 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2018 10:44 Plansix wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:38 Introvert wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:24 Plansix wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:17 Introvert wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:12 Plansix wrote:
https://twitter.com/MayaMacGuineas/status/961755138548555776

This sums up Rand Paul right now. And a lot of Republicans worried about the debt.


spending is different than tax cuts. he isn't the hypocrite here.

He is right that spending should be cut, but at most he'll get an overnight shutdown which in my mind doesn't count as a shutdown at all.

That isn’t how my bills work. Or the state budget of Oklahoma and Kentucky. But these are the people who vote to go to war and cut taxes. Cutting spending means losing elections or gutting their state’s budget.


I don't pretend to know about those states beyond the reporting I see that, to say the least, I view as suspect. Nonetheless, you do have to cut spending if you cut taxes, generally speaking. Many states that cut taxes won't cut spending, because it's unpopular. There is nothing hypocritical about supporting both tax cuts and spending cuts.There are obviously hypocrites in both parties on this, but not for that reason.

They couldn’t keep their schools open 5 days a week. They put mileage caps on state police. Rural nursing homes closed. The problem is that when you’re talking about cutting services people rely on, which is why it’s unpopular.

I say this so much about conservatives, but you all want to do these things and want none of the responsibility for the outcome. From immigration to taxes.


Meanwhile you manage to turn everything that happens into the GOP's fault. Nah, conservatives acknowledge cutting spending means government does less. In fact that's one of the upsides. Where on earth that last line comes from I have no idea.

People rely on the government too much, that's kind of one of the issues conservatives have had with this country for decades. "None of the responsibility" rofl. You go ahead and continue to conflate the different elements of the right and blame whichever one suits in the moment, I'll just watch.

The GOO overwhelming controls those legislators and could write any budget they wanted. They couldn’t make it work because the “boom” from the tax cuts never came. They were forced to cut essential services. That is the reality of these tax cuts. The economy isn’t going to leap up to 5% GDP.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23259 Posts
February 09 2018 01:58 GMT
#197473
On February 09 2018 10:50 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2018 10:47 GreenHorizons wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:38 Introvert wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:24 Plansix wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:17 Introvert wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:12 Plansix wrote:
https://twitter.com/MayaMacGuineas/status/961755138548555776

This sums up Rand Paul right now. And a lot of Republicans worried about the debt.


spending is different than tax cuts. he isn't the hypocrite here.

He is right that spending should be cut, but at most he'll get an overnight shutdown which in my mind doesn't count as a shutdown at all.

That isn’t how my bills work. Or the state budget of Oklahoma and Kentucky. But these are the people who vote to go to war and cut taxes. Cutting spending means losing elections or gutting their state’s budget.


I don't pretend to know about those states beyond the reporting I see that, to say the least, I view as suspect. Nonetheless, you do have to cut spending if you cut taxes, generally speaking. Many states that cut taxes won't cut spending, because it's unpopular. There is nothing hypocritical about supporting both tax cuts and spending cuts.There are obviously hypocrites in both parties on this, but not for that reason.


I kinda wonder what the end game is. We know their policy concentrates more wealth at the top (wanting to eliminate the estate tax is probably the most blatant), you want less government spending and less taxes but till when?

Just as a rough estimate we recently have had ~$5-666 billion deficits, so presumably we need to cut at least that much spending, but how much more are we talking?

This also means that the concept that lower rates will bring in more/comparable revenue isn't really what Republicans/Conservatives even want. They don't want the government getting a penny more in revenue than it is now, and who knows how much less they think it should be getting.


The same objection could be made to the left. how much MORE should the government be doing? I've told you this before but demanding some endstate like "government revenue should be x dollars and not higher" is dumb and not an argument made in good faith. I won't ask you for Utopia and you won't ask me, seems well enough for TL at least.


Well the government doesn'thave to do much if people just stop appropriating the surplus value of countless workers into the hands of a few people

So it's not really the same at all.

You want to cut spending and revenue to the government you gotta have a floor. "Like there's no way the government could run on less than X" then we can see what a government can do with that much money.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4789 Posts
February 09 2018 01:59 GMT
#197474
On February 09 2018 10:56 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2018 10:48 Introvert wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:44 Plansix wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:38 Introvert wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:24 Plansix wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:17 Introvert wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:12 Plansix wrote:
https://twitter.com/MayaMacGuineas/status/961755138548555776

This sums up Rand Paul right now. And a lot of Republicans worried about the debt.


spending is different than tax cuts. he isn't the hypocrite here.

He is right that spending should be cut, but at most he'll get an overnight shutdown which in my mind doesn't count as a shutdown at all.

That isn’t how my bills work. Or the state budget of Oklahoma and Kentucky. But these are the people who vote to go to war and cut taxes. Cutting spending means losing elections or gutting their state’s budget.


I don't pretend to know about those states beyond the reporting I see that, to say the least, I view as suspect. Nonetheless, you do have to cut spending if you cut taxes, generally speaking. Many states that cut taxes won't cut spending, because it's unpopular. There is nothing hypocritical about supporting both tax cuts and spending cuts.There are obviously hypocrites in both parties on this, but not for that reason.

They couldn’t keep their schools open 5 days a week. They put mileage caps on state police. Rural nursing homes closed. The problem is that when you’re talking about cutting services people rely on, which is why it’s unpopular.

I say this so much about conservatives, but you all want to do these things and want none of the responsibility for the outcome. From immigration to taxes.


Meanwhile you manage to turn everything that happens into the GOP's fault. Nah, conservatives acknowledge cutting spending means government does less. In fact that's one of the upsides. Where on earth that last line comes from I have no idea.

People rely on the government too much, that's kind of one of the issues conservatives have had with this country for decades. "None of the responsibility" rofl. You go ahead and continue to conflate the different elements of the right and blame whichever one suits in the moment, I'll just watch.

The GOO overwhelming controls those legislators and could write any budget they wanted. They couldn’t make it work because the “boom” from the tax cuts never came. They were forced to cut essential services. That is the reality of these tax cuts. The economy isn’t going to leap up to 5% GDP.


I'm not sure you are reading what I'm writing. You are just responding to the person in your head.
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4789 Posts
February 09 2018 02:02 GMT
#197475
On February 09 2018 10:58 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2018 10:50 Introvert wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:47 GreenHorizons wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:38 Introvert wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:24 Plansix wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:17 Introvert wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:12 Plansix wrote:
https://twitter.com/MayaMacGuineas/status/961755138548555776

This sums up Rand Paul right now. And a lot of Republicans worried about the debt.


spending is different than tax cuts. he isn't the hypocrite here.

He is right that spending should be cut, but at most he'll get an overnight shutdown which in my mind doesn't count as a shutdown at all.

That isn’t how my bills work. Or the state budget of Oklahoma and Kentucky. But these are the people who vote to go to war and cut taxes. Cutting spending means losing elections or gutting their state’s budget.


I don't pretend to know about those states beyond the reporting I see that, to say the least, I view as suspect. Nonetheless, you do have to cut spending if you cut taxes, generally speaking. Many states that cut taxes won't cut spending, because it's unpopular. There is nothing hypocritical about supporting both tax cuts and spending cuts.There are obviously hypocrites in both parties on this, but not for that reason.


I kinda wonder what the end game is. We know their policy concentrates more wealth at the top (wanting to eliminate the estate tax is probably the most blatant), you want less government spending and less taxes but till when?

Just as a rough estimate we recently have had ~$5-666 billion deficits, so presumably we need to cut at least that much spending, but how much more are we talking?

This also means that the concept that lower rates will bring in more/comparable revenue isn't really what Republicans/Conservatives even want. They don't want the government getting a penny more in revenue than it is now, and who knows how much less they think it should be getting.


The same objection could be made to the left. how much MORE should the government be doing? I've told you this before but demanding some endstate like "government revenue should be x dollars and not higher" is dumb and not an argument made in good faith. I won't ask you for Utopia and you won't ask me, seems well enough for TL at least.


Well the government doesn'thave to do much if people just stop appropriating the surplus value of countless workers into the hands of a few people

So it's not really the same at all.

You want to cut spending and revenue to the government you gotta have a floor. "Like there's no way the government could run on less than X" then we can see what a government can do with that much money.


It would be just as unfair if I asked you to tell me exactly what the tax rates should be and how much government should spend on everything. You would say "as much as it needs to do x" and that's about what I would say, unless I'm in DC writing budgets.
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23259 Posts
February 09 2018 02:08 GMT
#197476
On February 09 2018 11:02 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2018 10:58 GreenHorizons wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:50 Introvert wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:47 GreenHorizons wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:38 Introvert wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:24 Plansix wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:17 Introvert wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:12 Plansix wrote:
https://twitter.com/MayaMacGuineas/status/961755138548555776

This sums up Rand Paul right now. And a lot of Republicans worried about the debt.


spending is different than tax cuts. he isn't the hypocrite here.

He is right that spending should be cut, but at most he'll get an overnight shutdown which in my mind doesn't count as a shutdown at all.

That isn’t how my bills work. Or the state budget of Oklahoma and Kentucky. But these are the people who vote to go to war and cut taxes. Cutting spending means losing elections or gutting their state’s budget.


I don't pretend to know about those states beyond the reporting I see that, to say the least, I view as suspect. Nonetheless, you do have to cut spending if you cut taxes, generally speaking. Many states that cut taxes won't cut spending, because it's unpopular. There is nothing hypocritical about supporting both tax cuts and spending cuts.There are obviously hypocrites in both parties on this, but not for that reason.


I kinda wonder what the end game is. We know their policy concentrates more wealth at the top (wanting to eliminate the estate tax is probably the most blatant), you want less government spending and less taxes but till when?

Just as a rough estimate we recently have had ~$5-666 billion deficits, so presumably we need to cut at least that much spending, but how much more are we talking?

This also means that the concept that lower rates will bring in more/comparable revenue isn't really what Republicans/Conservatives even want. They don't want the government getting a penny more in revenue than it is now, and who knows how much less they think it should be getting.


The same objection could be made to the left. how much MORE should the government be doing? I've told you this before but demanding some endstate like "government revenue should be x dollars and not higher" is dumb and not an argument made in good faith. I won't ask you for Utopia and you won't ask me, seems well enough for TL at least.


Well the government doesn'thave to do much if people just stop appropriating the surplus value of countless workers into the hands of a few people

So it's not really the same at all.

You want to cut spending and revenue to the government you gotta have a floor. "Like there's no way the government could run on less than X" then we can see what a government can do with that much money.


It would be just as unfair if I asked you to tell me exactly what the tax rates should be and how much government should spend on everything. You would say "as much as it needs to do x" and that's about what I would say, unless I'm in DC writing budgets.


I'm not really looking for a detailed analysis, I could say I need the government to bring the distribution of surplus value to a more reasonable level of fairness. Something like 15-1 maybe nothing more than 100-1 (under certain circumstances) or maybe something close.

What I'm looking for is something like "~50% of current revenue is where I'd like to see it" more or less. With some idea of the sectors it would be coming from. It's not a manifesto it's just a rough idea of what it is you want.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 09 2018 02:09 GMT
#197477
On February 09 2018 10:59 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2018 10:56 Plansix wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:48 Introvert wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:44 Plansix wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:38 Introvert wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:24 Plansix wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:17 Introvert wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:12 Plansix wrote:
https://twitter.com/MayaMacGuineas/status/961755138548555776

This sums up Rand Paul right now. And a lot of Republicans worried about the debt.


spending is different than tax cuts. he isn't the hypocrite here.

He is right that spending should be cut, but at most he'll get an overnight shutdown which in my mind doesn't count as a shutdown at all.

That isn’t how my bills work. Or the state budget of Oklahoma and Kentucky. But these are the people who vote to go to war and cut taxes. Cutting spending means losing elections or gutting their state’s budget.


I don't pretend to know about those states beyond the reporting I see that, to say the least, I view as suspect. Nonetheless, you do have to cut spending if you cut taxes, generally speaking. Many states that cut taxes won't cut spending, because it's unpopular. There is nothing hypocritical about supporting both tax cuts and spending cuts.There are obviously hypocrites in both parties on this, but not for that reason.

They couldn’t keep their schools open 5 days a week. They put mileage caps on state police. Rural nursing homes closed. The problem is that when you’re talking about cutting services people rely on, which is why it’s unpopular.

I say this so much about conservatives, but you all want to do these things and want none of the responsibility for the outcome. From immigration to taxes.


Meanwhile you manage to turn everything that happens into the GOP's fault. Nah, conservatives acknowledge cutting spending means government does less. In fact that's one of the upsides. Where on earth that last line comes from I have no idea.

People rely on the government too much, that's kind of one of the issues conservatives have had with this country for decades. "None of the responsibility" rofl. You go ahead and continue to conflate the different elements of the right and blame whichever one suits in the moment, I'll just watch.

The GOO overwhelming controls those legislators and could write any budget they wanted. They couldn’t make it work because the “boom” from the tax cuts never came. They were forced to cut essential services. That is the reality of these tax cuts. The economy isn’t going to leap up to 5% GDP.


I'm not sure you are reading what I'm writing. You are just responding to the person in your head.

They cut spending and people are now voting to raise taxes in those states. They sold people on an half backed idea we disproved in the 80s. Trickle down economics doesn’t work.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4789 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-02-09 02:19:14
February 09 2018 02:16 GMT
#197478
On February 09 2018 11:08 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2018 11:02 Introvert wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:58 GreenHorizons wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:50 Introvert wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:47 GreenHorizons wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:38 Introvert wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:24 Plansix wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:17 Introvert wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:12 Plansix wrote:
https://twitter.com/MayaMacGuineas/status/961755138548555776

This sums up Rand Paul right now. And a lot of Republicans worried about the debt.


spending is different than tax cuts. he isn't the hypocrite here.

He is right that spending should be cut, but at most he'll get an overnight shutdown which in my mind doesn't count as a shutdown at all.

That isn’t how my bills work. Or the state budget of Oklahoma and Kentucky. But these are the people who vote to go to war and cut taxes. Cutting spending means losing elections or gutting their state’s budget.


I don't pretend to know about those states beyond the reporting I see that, to say the least, I view as suspect. Nonetheless, you do have to cut spending if you cut taxes, generally speaking. Many states that cut taxes won't cut spending, because it's unpopular. There is nothing hypocritical about supporting both tax cuts and spending cuts.There are obviously hypocrites in both parties on this, but not for that reason.


I kinda wonder what the end game is. We know their policy concentrates more wealth at the top (wanting to eliminate the estate tax is probably the most blatant), you want less government spending and less taxes but till when?

Just as a rough estimate we recently have had ~$5-666 billion deficits, so presumably we need to cut at least that much spending, but how much more are we talking?

This also means that the concept that lower rates will bring in more/comparable revenue isn't really what Republicans/Conservatives even want. They don't want the government getting a penny more in revenue than it is now, and who knows how much less they think it should be getting.


The same objection could be made to the left. how much MORE should the government be doing? I've told you this before but demanding some endstate like "government revenue should be x dollars and not higher" is dumb and not an argument made in good faith. I won't ask you for Utopia and you won't ask me, seems well enough for TL at least.


Well the government doesn'thave to do much if people just stop appropriating the surplus value of countless workers into the hands of a few people

So it's not really the same at all.

You want to cut spending and revenue to the government you gotta have a floor. "Like there's no way the government could run on less than X" then we can see what a government can do with that much money.


It would be just as unfair if I asked you to tell me exactly what the tax rates should be and how much government should spend on everything. You would say "as much as it needs to do x" and that's about what I would say, unless I'm in DC writing budgets.


I'm not really looking for a detailed analysis, I could say I need the government to bring the distribution of surplus value to a more reasonable level of fairness. Something like 15-1 maybe nothing more than 100-1 (under certain circumstances) or maybe something close.

What I'm looking for is something like "~50% of current revenue is where I'd like to see it" more or less. With some idea of the sectors it would be coming from. It's not a manifesto it's just a rough idea of what it is you want.


Your first and second paragraph are not alike, and surely you can see that. Like you did in your first paragraph, I have goals in mind, not dollar amounts. Neither a conservative nor a liberal (nor progressive, nationalist, etc) has a philosophical commitment to a particular number for anything.
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23259 Posts
February 09 2018 02:25 GMT
#197479
On February 09 2018 11:16 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2018 11:08 GreenHorizons wrote:
On February 09 2018 11:02 Introvert wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:58 GreenHorizons wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:50 Introvert wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:47 GreenHorizons wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:38 Introvert wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:24 Plansix wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:17 Introvert wrote:
On February 09 2018 10:12 Plansix wrote:
https://twitter.com/MayaMacGuineas/status/961755138548555776

This sums up Rand Paul right now. And a lot of Republicans worried about the debt.


spending is different than tax cuts. he isn't the hypocrite here.

He is right that spending should be cut, but at most he'll get an overnight shutdown which in my mind doesn't count as a shutdown at all.

That isn’t how my bills work. Or the state budget of Oklahoma and Kentucky. But these are the people who vote to go to war and cut taxes. Cutting spending means losing elections or gutting their state’s budget.


I don't pretend to know about those states beyond the reporting I see that, to say the least, I view as suspect. Nonetheless, you do have to cut spending if you cut taxes, generally speaking. Many states that cut taxes won't cut spending, because it's unpopular. There is nothing hypocritical about supporting both tax cuts and spending cuts.There are obviously hypocrites in both parties on this, but not for that reason.


I kinda wonder what the end game is. We know their policy concentrates more wealth at the top (wanting to eliminate the estate tax is probably the most blatant), you want less government spending and less taxes but till when?

Just as a rough estimate we recently have had ~$5-666 billion deficits, so presumably we need to cut at least that much spending, but how much more are we talking?

This also means that the concept that lower rates will bring in more/comparable revenue isn't really what Republicans/Conservatives even want. They don't want the government getting a penny more in revenue than it is now, and who knows how much less they think it should be getting.


The same objection could be made to the left. how much MORE should the government be doing? I've told you this before but demanding some endstate like "government revenue should be x dollars and not higher" is dumb and not an argument made in good faith. I won't ask you for Utopia and you won't ask me, seems well enough for TL at least.


Well the government doesn'thave to do much if people just stop appropriating the surplus value of countless workers into the hands of a few people

So it's not really the same at all.

You want to cut spending and revenue to the government you gotta have a floor. "Like there's no way the government could run on less than X" then we can see what a government can do with that much money.


It would be just as unfair if I asked you to tell me exactly what the tax rates should be and how much government should spend on everything. You would say "as much as it needs to do x" and that's about what I would say, unless I'm in DC writing budgets.


I'm not really looking for a detailed analysis, I could say I need the government to bring the distribution of surplus value to a more reasonable level of fairness. Something like 15-1 maybe nothing more than 100-1 (under certain circumstances) or maybe something close.

What I'm looking for is something like "~50% of current revenue is where I'd like to see it" more or less. With some idea of the sectors it would be coming from. It's not a manifesto it's just a rough idea of what it is you want.


Your first and second paragraph are not alike, and surely you can see that. Like you did in your first paragraph, I have goals in mind, not dollar amounts. Neither a conservative or a liberal (or progressive, nationalist, etc) has a philosophical commitment to a particular number for anything.


Let me ask it this way (I'm genuinely curious), can you give me a description similar to the first one in your view?

I think of the main governing principal I see needing something like a federal gov to fulfill is redistributing the SV since the system we have has done such an extraordinarily terrible job (the whole 3 people having more wealth than half the country thing). Then that I gave you roughly what I think it should look like numerically. It's kinda obvious where the redistribution comes from/goes in my scenario so that's why I'm wondering where you would like to see these cuts. Not exhaustive, just some concrete examples like shave 5% of SS, cut foreign aid in half, is the military budget on the table? I'm not trying to be difficult I'm just genuinely confused.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 09 2018 02:27 GMT
#197480
I think GH is asking what does the conservative American look like. What is the end goal? What does reducing immigration and cutting government spending/services get us?
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
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