|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On December 04 2017 10:51 Uldridge wrote:
Please explain to me how literally being able to do what you want because every basic necessity is accounted for isn't individual freedom..
Most of us live in countries where all basic necessities are already accounted for and where we can do what we want. That has already been realized.
When you let people do what they want the first thing they'd do is get rid of your robot overlord. That's the biggest flaw in this whole logic, you somehow think if you put your AI ruler up we'll all sing kumbaya. We have built capitalism on top of that system, it already exists
|
On December 04 2017 10:52 Sermokala wrote:
Please explain to me how you can literally be able to conceive of a system that accounts for every basic necessity? The god robot will be made by men not god. It will be flawed.
Do you think we don't already have enough resources to feed and house every single human? Are you kidding right now?
Objectivity is not a human's modus operandi. The "God Robot" will be able to at least approximate that initially and it'll only ameliorate itself further.
Come on dude, all you need to do is reflect a small moment on all the waste the West alone produces every day that can still be or should've been a resource for someone else. It's absolutely disgusting.
On December 04 2017 10:59 Nyxisto wrote:
Most of us live in countries where all basic necessities are already accounted for and where we can do what we want. That has already been realized.
You're repulsive if you actually think that's true
When you let people do what they want the first thing they'd do is get rid of your robot overlord. That's the biggest flaw in this whole logic, you somehow think if you put your AI ruler up we'll all sing kumbaya.
I don't understand why we'd need to get rid of the Robot Overlord.
No, I expect people to find out what makes them truly happy instead of living under the crushing weight of fear of losing the basic necessities. How many people you think are truly happy or live truly meaningful lives?
We have built capitalism on top of that system, it already exists
I don't understand this sentence.
|
On December 04 2017 11:01 Uldridge wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2017 10:52 Sermokala wrote:
Please explain to me how you can literally be able to conceive of a system that accounts for every basic necessity? The god robot will be made by men not god. It will be flawed. Do you think we don't already have enough resources to feed and house every single human? Are you kidding right now? Objectivity is not a human's modus operandi. The "God Robot" will be able to at least approximate that initially and it'll only ameliorate itself further. Come on dude, all you need to do is reflect a small moment on all the waste the West alone produces every day that can still be or should've been a resource for someone else. It's absolutely disgusting.
We have the resources to feed and house everyone because of the system that made it profitable to be able to feed and house as many people as we have today. You're acting as if the situation we're in now being inherent to the system we've followed up until now wasn't created inherently by the system we've been following up until now. You can advocate for urban homesteading and public welfare but you can't complain at the same time about the system that gives you the capability to fix it in the same way.
|
Your glorious machine is already realised, It's called the modern state. It's a little more clunky and produces a little more paper, but if I want an apartment, food and basic insurance I can already get that. I don't need science fiction for it. The problem is that none of it matters. People will still build markets, they'll still trade and they'll still compete and produce inequality because that's a lot more fun than just sitting around on your basic income.
The kind of egalitarianism you're longing for has been realised a few decades ago, you just haven't noticed it yet. People do this in video games. We're on a starcraft subreddit for crying out loud. Do you prefer playing yourself or do you sit around all day watching the computer play itself?
|
On December 04 2017 11:10 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2017 11:01 Uldridge wrote:On December 04 2017 10:52 Sermokala wrote:
Please explain to me how you can literally be able to conceive of a system that accounts for every basic necessity? The god robot will be made by men not god. It will be flawed. Do you think we don't already have enough resources to feed and house every single human? Are you kidding right now? Objectivity is not a human's modus operandi. The "God Robot" will be able to at least approximate that initially and it'll only ameliorate itself further. Come on dude, all you need to do is reflect a small moment on all the waste the West alone produces every day that can still be or should've been a resource for someone else. It's absolutely disgusting. We have the resources to feed and house everyone because of the system that made it profitable to be able to feed and house as many people as we have today. You're acting as if the situation we're in now being inherent to the system we've followed up until now wasn't created inherently by the system we've been following up until now. You can advocate for urban homesteading and public welfare but you can't complain at the same time about the system that gives you the capability to fix it in the same way.
Yes you can and should. Otherwise we'd still be using Oldowan tools.
|
On December 04 2017 11:12 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2017 11:10 Sermokala wrote:On December 04 2017 11:01 Uldridge wrote:On December 04 2017 10:52 Sermokala wrote:
Please explain to me how you can literally be able to conceive of a system that accounts for every basic necessity? The god robot will be made by men not god. It will be flawed. Do you think we don't already have enough resources to feed and house every single human? Are you kidding right now? Objectivity is not a human's modus operandi. The "God Robot" will be able to at least approximate that initially and it'll only ameliorate itself further. Come on dude, all you need to do is reflect a small moment on all the waste the West alone produces every day that can still be or should've been a resource for someone else. It's absolutely disgusting. We have the resources to feed and house everyone because of the system that made it profitable to be able to feed and house as many people as we have today. You're acting as if the situation we're in now being inherent to the system we've followed up until now wasn't created inherently by the system we've been following up until now. You can advocate for urban homesteading and public welfare but you can't complain at the same time about the system that gives you the capability to fix it in the same way. Yes you can and should. Otherwise we'd still be using Oldowan tools.
I know I'm on a gaming forum saying this while I play two games and watch youtube videos but what a geek. How far up your ass are you that you think that making a reference to ancient tools that everyone had to google helps you in any way. We weren't humans 2.5 million years ago. We didn't conveive of ecnomic systems outside of maybe the last couple hundred years. But you think you're clever enough somehow by saying "capatalism is bad man" by bringing in the scientific name for the earliest recorded tools used.
You have no ideological standing and are just complaining to complain. We get you don't want to be relevant but you can at least aspire to legitimacy.
|
On December 04 2017 11:10 Sermokala wrote:
We have the resources to feed and house everyone because of the system that made it profitable to be able to feed and house as many people as we have today. You're acting as if the situation we're in now being inherent to the system we've followed up until now wasn't created inherently by the system we've been following up until now. You can advocate for urban homesteading and public welfare but you can't complain at the same time about the system that gives you the capability to fix it in the same way.
The system is inefficient. It's brought us to where we're now, but for me personally it doesn't cut it. I'll never deny the system we've created didn't put us in present day situation; and I understand that we've definitely come a long way.
But what I'm saying is that the situation as it is now won't change for the better. The divide between rich and poor will only grow larger and current society can't keep up with newer technologies. Rich people will soon be able to genetically engineer their babies (if it hasn't been done already) and poor people, well, they'll just have to get cancer and die or deal with their "inferior genes" or something.
I don't like the fact that supermarkets need to throw out food
I don't like the fact that we export our locally produced potatoes to some random ass country on the other side of the globe because it's cheaper
I don't like the fact that people break their backs to barely get by
I don't like the fact that stuff takes ages before they get done (infrastructural, administration systems, ...)
I don't like the fact that insurance companies can leverage health care coverage or a potential for livelihood for money or human behavior
I don't like the fact that pharma companies leverage desperate people who want to prolong their lives with a few weeks or months for a few extra bucks
I don't like the fact that potential world changing technologies get shelved because there's no market for it
Edit: let's add some more
I don't like the fact that we're killing off our biodiversity because we're advancing our comfort
I don't like the fact we're dumping massive amounts of waste in third world countries because when we can't see it, it doesn't exist
I don't like the fact that there are more cars than people in the world
I don't like the fact that we box countless of animals in way too small cages because there's a demand for meat and chicken and whatever cravings we have
This is just a snapshot of a "working system" that completely sickens me to the core and which can be solved by automation and by absolving of the system we've built.
|
On December 04 2017 11:19 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2017 11:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 04 2017 11:10 Sermokala wrote:On December 04 2017 11:01 Uldridge wrote:On December 04 2017 10:52 Sermokala wrote:
Please explain to me how you can literally be able to conceive of a system that accounts for every basic necessity? The god robot will be made by men not god. It will be flawed. Do you think we don't already have enough resources to feed and house every single human? Are you kidding right now? Objectivity is not a human's modus operandi. The "God Robot" will be able to at least approximate that initially and it'll only ameliorate itself further. Come on dude, all you need to do is reflect a small moment on all the waste the West alone produces every day that can still be or should've been a resource for someone else. It's absolutely disgusting. We have the resources to feed and house everyone because of the system that made it profitable to be able to feed and house as many people as we have today. You're acting as if the situation we're in now being inherent to the system we've followed up until now wasn't created inherently by the system we've been following up until now. You can advocate for urban homesteading and public welfare but you can't complain at the same time about the system that gives you the capability to fix it in the same way. Yes you can and should. Otherwise we'd still be using Oldowan tools. I know I'm on a gaming forum saying this while I play two games and watch youtube videos but what a geek. How far up your ass are you that you think that making a reference to ancient tools that everyone had to google helps you in any way. We weren't humans 2.5 million years ago. We didn't conveive of ecnomic systems outside of maybe the last couple hundred years. But you think you're clever enough somehow by saying "capatalism is bad man" by bringing in the scientific name for the earliest recorded tools used. You have no ideological standing and are just complaining to complain. We get you don't want to be relevant but you can at least aspire to legitimacy.
The point was someone looked at the system that had provided for countless advancements and was the very underpinning of how they survived and moved forward and they looked at the old method and eventually concluded that was fucking stupid to do it that way now and moved on.
Capitalism must have that point like the Oldawan tools, Acheulean Handaxes, all the way up to VHS and everything else.
I suppose it's fair to argue about where we are on that path, but the idea that capitalism is the end-all-be-all system is foolishly narrow-minded.
|
“I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing,” Grassley said, “as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.”
www.desmoinesregister.com
|
On December 04 2017 11:23 Uldridge wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2017 11:10 Sermokala wrote:
We have the resources to feed and house everyone because of the system that made it profitable to be able to feed and house as many people as we have today. You're acting as if the situation we're in now being inherent to the system we've followed up until now wasn't created inherently by the system we've been following up until now. You can advocate for urban homesteading and public welfare but you can't complain at the same time about the system that gives you the capability to fix it in the same way. The system is inefficient. It's brought us to where we're now, but for me personally it doesn't cut it. I'll never deny the system we've created didn't put us in present day situation; and I understand that we've definitely come a long way. But what I'm saying is that the situation as it is now won't change for the better. The divide between rich and poor will only grow larger and current society can't keep up with newer technologies. Rich people will soon be able to genetically engineer their babies (if it hasn't been done already) and poor people, well, they'll just have to get cancer and die or deal with their "inferior genes" or something. I don't like the fact that supermarkets need to throw out food I don't like the fact that we export our locally produced potatoes to some random ass country on the other side of the globe because it's cheaper I don't like the fact that people break their backs to barely get by I don't like the fact that stuff takes ages before they get done (infrastructural, administration systems, ...) I don't like the fact that insurance companies can leverage health care coverage or a potential for livelihood for money or human behavior I don't like the fact that pharma companies leverage desperate people who want to prolong their lives with a few weeks or months for a few extra bucks I don't like the fact that potential world changing technologies get shelved because there's no market for it I don't like the fact that we're killing off our biodiversity because we're advancing our comfort I don't like the fact we're dumping massive amounts of waste in third world countries because when we can't see it, it doesn't exist I don't like the fact that there are more cars than people in the world This is just a snapshot of a "working system" that completely sickens me to the core and which can be solved by automation and the absolving of the system we've built.
Oh fuck the system that no one created and no one is responsible for is inefficient? Do you understand in the slightest what even the concept of capitalism is? No one up and went one day to say "capitalism begins now" and everyone just started doing capitalist things. Capitalism is little different then farming being better then hunting and gathering so people started farming more then hunting and gathering.
Man the system worked for us now but lets just scrap the system entirely and replace it with nothing because I don't like its faults and replace it with nothing because no one has any idea what to replace nothing with when there wasn't anything to replace in the first place with nothing because nothing was what we had before the nothing after nothing nothing.
That last paragraph is the summary of what you're arguing. You're just bitching about bad things because they're bad and complaining about inefficient things because they're inefficient. You're lacking in any sort of purpose that you're advocating for a divine robot to take over everything. You watched Terminator and thought the robots were the good guys and Schwarzenegger was a capitalist pig trying to oppress the people.
|
United States44410 Posts
On December 04 2017 11:32 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +
“I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing,” Grassley said, “as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.”
www.desmoinesregister.com
lol. Because if there is one thing that people who inherit eight figure estates are known for then it's how much they struggle with the ladies. Whereas the working men of the world, they're drowning in gold diggers.
|
On December 04 2017 11:26 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2017 11:19 Sermokala wrote:On December 04 2017 11:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 04 2017 11:10 Sermokala wrote:On December 04 2017 11:01 Uldridge wrote:On December 04 2017 10:52 Sermokala wrote:
Please explain to me how you can literally be able to conceive of a system that accounts for every basic necessity? The god robot will be made by men not god. It will be flawed. Do you think we don't already have enough resources to feed and house every single human? Are you kidding right now? Objectivity is not a human's modus operandi. The "God Robot" will be able to at least approximate that initially and it'll only ameliorate itself further. Come on dude, all you need to do is reflect a small moment on all the waste the West alone produces every day that can still be or should've been a resource for someone else. It's absolutely disgusting. We have the resources to feed and house everyone because of the system that made it profitable to be able to feed and house as many people as we have today. You're acting as if the situation we're in now being inherent to the system we've followed up until now wasn't created inherently by the system we've been following up until now. You can advocate for urban homesteading and public welfare but you can't complain at the same time about the system that gives you the capability to fix it in the same way. Yes you can and should. Otherwise we'd still be using Oldowan tools. I know I'm on a gaming forum saying this while I play two games and watch youtube videos but what a geek. How far up your ass are you that you think that making a reference to ancient tools that everyone had to google helps you in any way. We weren't humans 2.5 million years ago. We didn't conveive of ecnomic systems outside of maybe the last couple hundred years. But you think you're clever enough somehow by saying "capatalism is bad man" by bringing in the scientific name for the earliest recorded tools used. You have no ideological standing and are just complaining to complain. We get you don't want to be relevant but you can at least aspire to legitimacy. The point was someone looked at the system that had provided for countless advancements and was the very underpinning of how they survived and moved forward and they looked at the old method and eventually concluded that was fucking stupid to do it that way now and moved on. Capitalism must have that point like the Oldawan tools, Acheulean Handaxes, all the way up to VHS and everything else. I suppose it's fair to argue about where we are on that path, but the idea that capitalism is the end-all-be-all system is foolishly narrow-minded.
It was never ment to be the end-all-be-all system. Capitalism never began is was discovered because people invented abstract thought. People just prefer it to a nebulous other thats never presented to them or even exists.
I mean do you want robot communism beacuse we can understand if you want robot communism. We're just saying thats impossible for completely other reasons other then it being theoretically better then capitalism.
|
United States44410 Posts
On December 04 2017 11:35 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2017 11:23 Uldridge wrote:On December 04 2017 11:10 Sermokala wrote:
We have the resources to feed and house everyone because of the system that made it profitable to be able to feed and house as many people as we have today. You're acting as if the situation we're in now being inherent to the system we've followed up until now wasn't created inherently by the system we've been following up until now. You can advocate for urban homesteading and public welfare but you can't complain at the same time about the system that gives you the capability to fix it in the same way. The system is inefficient. It's brought us to where we're now, but for me personally it doesn't cut it. I'll never deny the system we've created didn't put us in present day situation; and I understand that we've definitely come a long way. But what I'm saying is that the situation as it is now won't change for the better. The divide between rich and poor will only grow larger and current society can't keep up with newer technologies. Rich people will soon be able to genetically engineer their babies (if it hasn't been done already) and poor people, well, they'll just have to get cancer and die or deal with their "inferior genes" or something. I don't like the fact that supermarkets need to throw out food I don't like the fact that we export our locally produced potatoes to some random ass country on the other side of the globe because it's cheaper I don't like the fact that people break their backs to barely get by I don't like the fact that stuff takes ages before they get done (infrastructural, administration systems, ...) I don't like the fact that insurance companies can leverage health care coverage or a potential for livelihood for money or human behavior I don't like the fact that pharma companies leverage desperate people who want to prolong their lives with a few weeks or months for a few extra bucks I don't like the fact that potential world changing technologies get shelved because there's no market for it I don't like the fact that we're killing off our biodiversity because we're advancing our comfort I don't like the fact we're dumping massive amounts of waste in third world countries because when we can't see it, it doesn't exist I don't like the fact that there are more cars than people in the world This is just a snapshot of a "working system" that completely sickens me to the core and which can be solved by automation and the absolving of the system we've built. Oh fuck the system that no one created and no one is responsible for is inefficient? Do you understand in the slightest what even the concept of capitalism is? No one up and went one day to say "capitalism begins now" and everyone just started doing capitalist things. Capitalism is little different then farming being better then hunting and gathering so people started farming more then hunting and gathering. Man the system worked for us now but lets just scrap the system entirely and replace it with nothing because I don't like its faults and replace it with nothing because no one has any idea what to replace nothing with when there wasn't anything to replace in the first place with nothing because nothing was what we had before the nothing after nothing nothing. That last paragraph is the summary of what you're arguing. You're just bitching about bad things because they're bad and complaining about inefficient things because they're inefficient. You're lacking in any sort of purpose that you're advocating for a divine robot to take over everything. You watched Terminator and thought the robots were the good guys and Schwarzenegger was a capitalist pig trying to oppress the people.
Er, firstly that's a really stupid rant responding to basically no part of what he wrote. And secondly, Schwarzenegger was the titular terminator in the movie Terminator. Michael Biehn, if my google serves, was the capitalist fighting against robotic utopia.
|
On December 04 2017 11:38 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2017 11:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 04 2017 11:19 Sermokala wrote:On December 04 2017 11:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 04 2017 11:10 Sermokala wrote:On December 04 2017 11:01 Uldridge wrote:On December 04 2017 10:52 Sermokala wrote:
Please explain to me how you can literally be able to conceive of a system that accounts for every basic necessity? The god robot will be made by men not god. It will be flawed. Do you think we don't already have enough resources to feed and house every single human? Are you kidding right now? Objectivity is not a human's modus operandi. The "God Robot" will be able to at least approximate that initially and it'll only ameliorate itself further. Come on dude, all you need to do is reflect a small moment on all the waste the West alone produces every day that can still be or should've been a resource for someone else. It's absolutely disgusting. We have the resources to feed and house everyone because of the system that made it profitable to be able to feed and house as many people as we have today. You're acting as if the situation we're in now being inherent to the system we've followed up until now wasn't created inherently by the system we've been following up until now. You can advocate for urban homesteading and public welfare but you can't complain at the same time about the system that gives you the capability to fix it in the same way. Yes you can and should. Otherwise we'd still be using Oldowan tools. I know I'm on a gaming forum saying this while I play two games and watch youtube videos but what a geek. How far up your ass are you that you think that making a reference to ancient tools that everyone had to google helps you in any way. We weren't humans 2.5 million years ago. We didn't conveive of ecnomic systems outside of maybe the last couple hundred years. But you think you're clever enough somehow by saying "capatalism is bad man" by bringing in the scientific name for the earliest recorded tools used. You have no ideological standing and are just complaining to complain. We get you don't want to be relevant but you can at least aspire to legitimacy. The point was someone looked at the system that had provided for countless advancements and was the very underpinning of how they survived and moved forward and they looked at the old method and eventually concluded that was fucking stupid to do it that way now and moved on. Capitalism must have that point like the Oldawan tools, Acheulean Handaxes, all the way up to VHS and everything else. I suppose it's fair to argue about where we are on that path, but the idea that capitalism is the end-all-be-all system is foolishly narrow-minded. It was never ment to be the end-all-be-all system. Capitalism never began is was discovered because people invented abstract thought. People just prefer it to a nebulous other thats never presented to them or even exists. I mean do you want robot communism beacuse we can understand if you want robot communism. We're just saying thats impossible for completely other reasons other then it being theoretically better then capitalism.
I know what you're saying. The comment I was responding to was the absurd notion that we shouldn't be critical of capitalism and trying to replace it with something better.
|
On December 04 2017 11:39 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2017 11:35 Sermokala wrote:On December 04 2017 11:23 Uldridge wrote:On December 04 2017 11:10 Sermokala wrote:
We have the resources to feed and house everyone because of the system that made it profitable to be able to feed and house as many people as we have today. You're acting as if the situation we're in now being inherent to the system we've followed up until now wasn't created inherently by the system we've been following up until now. You can advocate for urban homesteading and public welfare but you can't complain at the same time about the system that gives you the capability to fix it in the same way. The system is inefficient. It's brought us to where we're now, but for me personally it doesn't cut it. I'll never deny the system we've created didn't put us in present day situation; and I understand that we've definitely come a long way. But what I'm saying is that the situation as it is now won't change for the better. The divide between rich and poor will only grow larger and current society can't keep up with newer technologies. Rich people will soon be able to genetically engineer their babies (if it hasn't been done already) and poor people, well, they'll just have to get cancer and die or deal with their "inferior genes" or something. I don't like the fact that supermarkets need to throw out food I don't like the fact that we export our locally produced potatoes to some random ass country on the other side of the globe because it's cheaper I don't like the fact that people break their backs to barely get by I don't like the fact that stuff takes ages before they get done (infrastructural, administration systems, ...) I don't like the fact that insurance companies can leverage health care coverage or a potential for livelihood for money or human behavior I don't like the fact that pharma companies leverage desperate people who want to prolong their lives with a few weeks or months for a few extra bucks I don't like the fact that potential world changing technologies get shelved because there's no market for it I don't like the fact that we're killing off our biodiversity because we're advancing our comfort I don't like the fact we're dumping massive amounts of waste in third world countries because when we can't see it, it doesn't exist I don't like the fact that there are more cars than people in the world This is just a snapshot of a "working system" that completely sickens me to the core and which can be solved by automation and the absolving of the system we've built. Oh fuck the system that no one created and no one is responsible for is inefficient? Do you understand in the slightest what even the concept of capitalism is? No one up and went one day to say "capitalism begins now" and everyone just started doing capitalist things. Capitalism is little different then farming being better then hunting and gathering so people started farming more then hunting and gathering. Man the system worked for us now but lets just scrap the system entirely and replace it with nothing because I don't like its faults and replace it with nothing because no one has any idea what to replace nothing with when there wasn't anything to replace in the first place with nothing because nothing was what we had before the nothing after nothing nothing. That last paragraph is the summary of what you're arguing. You're just bitching about bad things because they're bad and complaining about inefficient things because they're inefficient. You're lacking in any sort of purpose that you're advocating for a divine robot to take over everything. You watched Terminator and thought the robots were the good guys and Schwarzenegger was a capitalist pig trying to oppress the people. Er, firstly that's a really stupid rant responding to basically no part of what he wrote. And secondly, Schwarzenegger was the titular terminator in the movie Terminator.
But he was inefficient and failed at his task and in the end informed the humans more on how to delay Armageddon then he did to help the machines win or bring it closer to happening.
His post was complaining capitalism isn't good enough for him anymore and then listed a bunch of things he didn't like about it. He didn't provide an alternative or anything to make it better hes just trying to support the robot god alternative to capitalism.
On December 04 2017 11:44 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2017 11:38 Sermokala wrote:On December 04 2017 11:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 04 2017 11:19 Sermokala wrote:On December 04 2017 11:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 04 2017 11:10 Sermokala wrote:On December 04 2017 11:01 Uldridge wrote:On December 04 2017 10:52 Sermokala wrote:
Please explain to me how you can literally be able to conceive of a system that accounts for every basic necessity? The god robot will be made by men not god. It will be flawed. Do you think we don't already have enough resources to feed and house every single human? Are you kidding right now? Objectivity is not a human's modus operandi. The "God Robot" will be able to at least approximate that initially and it'll only ameliorate itself further. Come on dude, all you need to do is reflect a small moment on all the waste the West alone produces every day that can still be or should've been a resource for someone else. It's absolutely disgusting. We have the resources to feed and house everyone because of the system that made it profitable to be able to feed and house as many people as we have today. You're acting as if the situation we're in now being inherent to the system we've followed up until now wasn't created inherently by the system we've been following up until now. You can advocate for urban homesteading and public welfare but you can't complain at the same time about the system that gives you the capability to fix it in the same way. Yes you can and should. Otherwise we'd still be using Oldowan tools. I know I'm on a gaming forum saying this while I play two games and watch youtube videos but what a geek. How far up your ass are you that you think that making a reference to ancient tools that everyone had to google helps you in any way. We weren't humans 2.5 million years ago. We didn't conveive of ecnomic systems outside of maybe the last couple hundred years. But you think you're clever enough somehow by saying "capatalism is bad man" by bringing in the scientific name for the earliest recorded tools used. You have no ideological standing and are just complaining to complain. We get you don't want to be relevant but you can at least aspire to legitimacy. The point was someone looked at the system that had provided for countless advancements and was the very underpinning of how they survived and moved forward and they looked at the old method and eventually concluded that was fucking stupid to do it that way now and moved on. Capitalism must have that point like the Oldawan tools, Acheulean Handaxes, all the way up to VHS and everything else. I suppose it's fair to argue about where we are on that path, but the idea that capitalism is the end-all-be-all system is foolishly narrow-minded. It was never ment to be the end-all-be-all system. Capitalism never began is was discovered because people invented abstract thought. People just prefer it to a nebulous other thats never presented to them or even exists. I mean do you want robot communism beacuse we can understand if you want robot communism. We're just saying thats impossible for completely other reasons other then it being theoretically better then capitalism. I know what you're saying. The comment I was responding to was the absurd notion that we shouldn't be critical of capitalism and trying to replace it with something better.
Yeah but the problem is that all thats happening is the criticism of capitalism. You can't advocate for something better if there isn't something better to advocate for. Instead of advocating for the government to say eminent domain foreclosed houses for the little to nothing that they're worth and turn around and apply them to the homestead act would inherently be in the world of capitalism despite being entirely actions that arn't capitalistic.
I don't like nihilism either and want to replace it with something better but that isn't going to help me sleep at night if I think too hard.
|
this feels like it's wandering afar from us politics into mcuh more general (though important) questions; i'm wondering if there's a better thread for this? I so rarely check the thread lists to see that I don't know what other ones are around in general that might be more fitting.
|
How is no one responsible for capitalism? There are people that have tremendous stakes in keeping it alive as much as possible and why wouldn't you, when you have all the gold in the world? When you can invest in your little pet projects but can't be arsed to feed Africa.
Why do you think a massively integrated thing that does everyone's jobs for them and regulates the market autonomously and people can engage in their own free trade/services next to that (making nice objects for one another wouldn't have to be mass produced per se) is replacing the current system with nothing? I simply see it as a necessary upgrade if we want to keep advancing and if we want to iron out our current flaws.
And why the fuck shouldn't I bitch about bad things? And why the fuck shouldn't I complain about inefficient things? How is solving bad and inefficient things with a robot not having a purpose? What aren't you getting about reaching next levels of societal management?
Let's just stay in the era where politicians can't get any progress done and get lobbied to death by the powerhouses and let's keep fucking up our climate and let's keep dumping tons of plastic in the ocean because whateverrrrrrrrr, it's WORKING, RIGHT?
Also: the answer is right in front of our doorstep. It just might take a little while longer before we can implement it. But when we can implement it, why shouldn't we? Can you tell me why you think robot communism wouldn't work exactly?
|
On December 04 2017 11:45 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2017 11:39 KwarK wrote:On December 04 2017 11:35 Sermokala wrote:On December 04 2017 11:23 Uldridge wrote:On December 04 2017 11:10 Sermokala wrote:
We have the resources to feed and house everyone because of the system that made it profitable to be able to feed and house as many people as we have today. You're acting as if the situation we're in now being inherent to the system we've followed up until now wasn't created inherently by the system we've been following up until now. You can advocate for urban homesteading and public welfare but you can't complain at the same time about the system that gives you the capability to fix it in the same way. The system is inefficient. It's brought us to where we're now, but for me personally it doesn't cut it. I'll never deny the system we've created didn't put us in present day situation; and I understand that we've definitely come a long way. But what I'm saying is that the situation as it is now won't change for the better. The divide between rich and poor will only grow larger and current society can't keep up with newer technologies. Rich people will soon be able to genetically engineer their babies (if it hasn't been done already) and poor people, well, they'll just have to get cancer and die or deal with their "inferior genes" or something. I don't like the fact that supermarkets need to throw out food I don't like the fact that we export our locally produced potatoes to some random ass country on the other side of the globe because it's cheaper I don't like the fact that people break their backs to barely get by I don't like the fact that stuff takes ages before they get done (infrastructural, administration systems, ...) I don't like the fact that insurance companies can leverage health care coverage or a potential for livelihood for money or human behavior I don't like the fact that pharma companies leverage desperate people who want to prolong their lives with a few weeks or months for a few extra bucks I don't like the fact that potential world changing technologies get shelved because there's no market for it I don't like the fact that we're killing off our biodiversity because we're advancing our comfort I don't like the fact we're dumping massive amounts of waste in third world countries because when we can't see it, it doesn't exist I don't like the fact that there are more cars than people in the world This is just a snapshot of a "working system" that completely sickens me to the core and which can be solved by automation and the absolving of the system we've built. Oh fuck the system that no one created and no one is responsible for is inefficient? Do you understand in the slightest what even the concept of capitalism is? No one up and went one day to say "capitalism begins now" and everyone just started doing capitalist things. Capitalism is little different then farming being better then hunting and gathering so people started farming more then hunting and gathering. Man the system worked for us now but lets just scrap the system entirely and replace it with nothing because I don't like its faults and replace it with nothing because no one has any idea what to replace nothing with when there wasn't anything to replace in the first place with nothing because nothing was what we had before the nothing after nothing nothing. That last paragraph is the summary of what you're arguing. You're just bitching about bad things because they're bad and complaining about inefficient things because they're inefficient. You're lacking in any sort of purpose that you're advocating for a divine robot to take over everything. You watched Terminator and thought the robots were the good guys and Schwarzenegger was a capitalist pig trying to oppress the people. Er, firstly that's a really stupid rant responding to basically no part of what he wrote. And secondly, Schwarzenegger was the titular terminator in the movie Terminator. But he was inefficient and failed at his task and in the end informed the humans more on how to delay Armageddon then he did to help the machines win or bring it closer to happening. His post was complaining capitalism isn't good enough for him anymore and then listed a bunch of things he didn't like about it. He didn't provide an alternative or anything to make it better hes just trying to support the robot god alternative to capitalism. Show nested quote +On December 04 2017 11:44 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 04 2017 11:38 Sermokala wrote:On December 04 2017 11:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 04 2017 11:19 Sermokala wrote:On December 04 2017 11:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 04 2017 11:10 Sermokala wrote:On December 04 2017 11:01 Uldridge wrote:On December 04 2017 10:52 Sermokala wrote:
Please explain to me how you can literally be able to conceive of a system that accounts for every basic necessity? The god robot will be made by men not god. It will be flawed. Do you think we don't already have enough resources to feed and house every single human? Are you kidding right now? Objectivity is not a human's modus operandi. The "God Robot" will be able to at least approximate that initially and it'll only ameliorate itself further. Come on dude, all you need to do is reflect a small moment on all the waste the West alone produces every day that can still be or should've been a resource for someone else. It's absolutely disgusting. We have the resources to feed and house everyone because of the system that made it profitable to be able to feed and house as many people as we have today. You're acting as if the situation we're in now being inherent to the system we've followed up until now wasn't created inherently by the system we've been following up until now. You can advocate for urban homesteading and public welfare but you can't complain at the same time about the system that gives you the capability to fix it in the same way. Yes you can and should. Otherwise we'd still be using Oldowan tools. I know I'm on a gaming forum saying this while I play two games and watch youtube videos but what a geek. How far up your ass are you that you think that making a reference to ancient tools that everyone had to google helps you in any way. We weren't humans 2.5 million years ago. We didn't conveive of ecnomic systems outside of maybe the last couple hundred years. But you think you're clever enough somehow by saying "capatalism is bad man" by bringing in the scientific name for the earliest recorded tools used. You have no ideological standing and are just complaining to complain. We get you don't want to be relevant but you can at least aspire to legitimacy. The point was someone looked at the system that had provided for countless advancements and was the very underpinning of how they survived and moved forward and they looked at the old method and eventually concluded that was fucking stupid to do it that way now and moved on. Capitalism must have that point like the Oldawan tools, Acheulean Handaxes, all the way up to VHS and everything else. I suppose it's fair to argue about where we are on that path, but the idea that capitalism is the end-all-be-all system is foolishly narrow-minded. It was never ment to be the end-all-be-all system. Capitalism never began is was discovered because people invented abstract thought. People just prefer it to a nebulous other thats never presented to them or even exists. I mean do you want robot communism beacuse we can understand if you want robot communism. We're just saying thats impossible for completely other reasons other then it being theoretically better then capitalism. I know what you're saying. The comment I was responding to was the absurd notion that we shouldn't be critical of capitalism and trying to replace it with something better. Yeah but the problem is that all thats happening is the criticism of capitalism. You can't advocate for something better if there isn't something better to advocate for. Instead of advocating for the government to say eminent domain foreclosed houses for the little to nothing that they're worth and turn around and apply them to the homestead act would inherently be in the world of capitalism despite being entirely actions that arn't capitalistic. I don't like nihilism either and want to replace it with something better but that isn't going to help me sleep at night if I think too hard.
I don't think we should shut off capitalism tomorrow and switch to benevolent robot communism. The "something better" is less capitalism, more socialism on the way to robot communism.
As opposed to the drill the earth into submission until the wealthy can set up a space colony and earth becomes one giant plantation/mine/labor camp "MOAR CAPITALISM!" plan we got going now.
|
Capitalism is the abstract concept of an economy that isn't controlled by anyone. Governments influence it in various ways but its more a school of philosophy then a system.
You don't even have a real name for your "massively integrated thing that does everyone's jobs for them and regulates the market autonomously" which is why we're calling it a god robot.
I mean for reals lets ignore the rights or wrongs about it but dig into what you're proposing. Do you envision creating sentience and enslaving it to serve us? Are you proposing that people create a computer program capable of abstract and theoretical thought as well as dynamic planning years in advance?
|
United States44410 Posts
On December 04 2017 11:45 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2017 11:39 KwarK wrote:On December 04 2017 11:35 Sermokala wrote:On December 04 2017 11:23 Uldridge wrote:On December 04 2017 11:10 Sermokala wrote:
We have the resources to feed and house everyone because of the system that made it profitable to be able to feed and house as many people as we have today. You're acting as if the situation we're in now being inherent to the system we've followed up until now wasn't created inherently by the system we've been following up until now. You can advocate for urban homesteading and public welfare but you can't complain at the same time about the system that gives you the capability to fix it in the same way. The system is inefficient. It's brought us to where we're now, but for me personally it doesn't cut it. I'll never deny the system we've created didn't put us in present day situation; and I understand that we've definitely come a long way. But what I'm saying is that the situation as it is now won't change for the better. The divide between rich and poor will only grow larger and current society can't keep up with newer technologies. Rich people will soon be able to genetically engineer their babies (if it hasn't been done already) and poor people, well, they'll just have to get cancer and die or deal with their "inferior genes" or something. I don't like the fact that supermarkets need to throw out food I don't like the fact that we export our locally produced potatoes to some random ass country on the other side of the globe because it's cheaper I don't like the fact that people break their backs to barely get by I don't like the fact that stuff takes ages before they get done (infrastructural, administration systems, ...) I don't like the fact that insurance companies can leverage health care coverage or a potential for livelihood for money or human behavior I don't like the fact that pharma companies leverage desperate people who want to prolong their lives with a few weeks or months for a few extra bucks I don't like the fact that potential world changing technologies get shelved because there's no market for it I don't like the fact that we're killing off our biodiversity because we're advancing our comfort I don't like the fact we're dumping massive amounts of waste in third world countries because when we can't see it, it doesn't exist I don't like the fact that there are more cars than people in the world This is just a snapshot of a "working system" that completely sickens me to the core and which can be solved by automation and the absolving of the system we've built. Oh fuck the system that no one created and no one is responsible for is inefficient? Do you understand in the slightest what even the concept of capitalism is? No one up and went one day to say "capitalism begins now" and everyone just started doing capitalist things. Capitalism is little different then farming being better then hunting and gathering so people started farming more then hunting and gathering. Man the system worked for us now but lets just scrap the system entirely and replace it with nothing because I don't like its faults and replace it with nothing because no one has any idea what to replace nothing with when there wasn't anything to replace in the first place with nothing because nothing was what we had before the nothing after nothing nothing. That last paragraph is the summary of what you're arguing. You're just bitching about bad things because they're bad and complaining about inefficient things because they're inefficient. You're lacking in any sort of purpose that you're advocating for a divine robot to take over everything. You watched Terminator and thought the robots were the good guys and Schwarzenegger was a capitalist pig trying to oppress the people. Er, firstly that's a really stupid rant responding to basically no part of what he wrote. And secondly, Schwarzenegger was the titular terminator in the movie Terminator. But he was inefficient and failed at his task and in the end informed the humans more on how to delay Armageddon then he did to help the machines win or bring it closer to happening. His post was complaining capitalism isn't good enough for him anymore and then listed a bunch of things he didn't like about it. He didn't provide an alternative or anything to make it better hes just trying to support the robot god alternative to capitalism.
I dunno, your post read an awful lot like you thought that Arnold was the capitalist human opposing the robotic terminators.
Either way, capitalism isn't a switch so attacking him as if he's suggesting we switch it off and switch on robots is absurd. It's not binary. Hunting whales to extinction would be capitalist, but the fact that we created international agreements to not do that doesn't mean that capitalism has been turned off.
Today the average chocolate bar in an American store has a very good chance of being made with slave labour, child labour, or both. The reason is because within a capitalist system it is not economically rational for the chocolate manufacturers to not use slave labour. Instead they simply use a system of brokers to remove themselves from the plantations and have the brokers promise them that no slave labour was used while simultaneously paying the brokers an amount so low that they know the workers are not getting paid. That gives them deniability and whenever there is an expose they insist that they are horrified to learn about all the slaves and will be reviewing their supply chain, before doing nothing at all.
Technology advancements have the potential to resolve that shit by making supply chains part of a blockchain that can be audited by an AI. That won't be the end of capitalism, but it would be the end of slave labour within your candy bars.
That's what is being discussed here. Saying "what shitty outcomes does capitalism produce and how can we leverage technology to correct them?" Capitalism isn't going to be switched off, but it is entirely possible that we can use computers to limit the excesses of it in the exact same way that we've limited the excesses of capitalism countless times before.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
