EPT
Why so serious?
US Politics Mega-thread - Page 9311
| Forum Index > Closed |
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
Falling
Canada11607 Posts
Why so serious? | ||
|
Nebuchad
Switzerland12614 Posts
| ||
|
Gorsameth
Netherlands22683 Posts
On November 24 2017 00:06 Nebuchad wrote: I don't understand how you interpret his post. Making one of the existing parties the third party is shifting its course to the positions that would be those of the third party. How else would you make it the third party? By putting a different party from 3e/4th(or new) into 1st/2nd? Thats how I read it. | ||
|
farvacola
United States18872 Posts
Because GH insists on taking the hardest line possible against societal orthodoxy where he can, and holidays built on caricatured national mythologies that subjugate/ignore the plight of minorities/natives are a good place to do that. | ||
|
GreenHorizons
United States24483 Posts
Not a big fan of rounding up men, women and children and murdering them and then throwing a celebration? Then enshrining that celebration by telling bullshit propaganda to make white Americans feel better about the betrayal and systematic extermination of language, culture, and bodies of indigenous people. Or what farv said if you prefer. | ||
|
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On November 24 2017 00:06 Nebuchad wrote: I don't understand how you interpret his post. Making one of the existing parties the third party is shifting its course to the positions that would be those of the third party. How else would you make it the third party? A third party is one that is non-viable electorally in your system. No party is going to do that to themselves deliberately. The way to do it would have to be making a new party which suited your goals and then make it so popular that one of the existing parties is no longer viable. I don't think the US is going to see significant improvement on this front unless the electoral system itself is changed. | ||
|
Nebuchad
Switzerland12614 Posts
On November 24 2017 00:07 Gorsameth wrote: By putting a different party from 3e/4th(or new) into 1st/2nd? Thats how I read it. Seems like a weird read to me but I'll let GH clarify. | ||
|
GreenHorizons
United States24483 Posts
On November 24 2017 00:11 Aquanim wrote: A third party is one that is non-viable electorally in your system. No party is going to do that to themselves deliberately. The way to do it would have to be making a new party which suited your goals and then make it so popular that one of the existing parties is no longer viable. I don't think the US is going to see significant improvement on this front unless the electoral system itself is changed. But the people who control making changes are the ones benefiting from the system, so that's why we're supposed to throw up our hands and accept the shit tier offerings from the parties that will forever be. On November 24 2017 00:11 Nebuchad wrote: Seems like a weird read to me but I'll let GH clarify. Either really. I reject the idea that this "we're stuck with shit tier representatives" is anything more than a shallow justification for acting to preserve the status quo instead of changing it. | ||
|
zlefin
United States7689 Posts
what you're supposed to do is change the parties from the inside to morph them into what you want. OR try to seriously build a 3rd party, that's fine, gl with that, but you aren't doing that. OR get enough popular support plus one political party to favor a change to the system itself, change the game, change the results. | ||
|
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
| ||
|
a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
On November 24 2017 00:04 Plansix wrote: If third parties tried to build a real base and win senate or house seats, they would be less of a joke. But they go for the Oval Office every time and just end up getting burned. Playing potential spoiler in national elections has not helped them. Yeah, and when I brought up Nick Brana who detailed what you are saying it was dismissed just as easily by all of you cynical bastards. Look at all the cynical responses propagating the exact same shit that the feminist you responded to was peddling. So maybe you should just accept the touchy grabby Franken as part of the Democratic party like Kate Harding says, yes? | ||
|
GreenHorizons
United States24483 Posts
On November 24 2017 00:20 Aquanim wrote: Well, you're throwing up your hands and accepting the system that will always be, and I think the shit tier offerings are inescapable if you do that, so... No, I'm not. That's the Democrats and liberals. I'm trying to get people to get on the right team (not here). | ||
|
Nebuchad
Switzerland12614 Posts
| ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28918 Posts
Just wildly hypothesizing, I have the easiest time imagining this party being part of a new center. Like republicans have already gone hard right, democrats might be going hard left, that'd open up for democrats who aren't up for increased taxes or republicans who aren't up for trump era crazy. If it's just the left segment refusing to vote democrat, republicans would not consider that an incentive to abandon FPTP - both parties have to bleed voters. | ||
|
Leporello
United States2845 Posts
On November 24 2017 00:04 Plansix wrote: If third parties tried to build a real base and win senate or house seats, they would be less of a joke. But they go for the Oval Office every time and just end up getting burned. Playing potential spoiler in national elections has not helped them. There are no local 3rd parties, except for conservative ones, actually. Liberal? Probably nothing, for most places. You'll have to be your own candidate, start your own party. Call it the "But Her E-mails" Party. You have lifetimes of work ahead of you, GH. Personally, I wouldn't be so quick to disregard the party that nominated Barack Obama (over Hillary Clinton) not too long ago. They screwed up on the next one, but get over it. Or just... become a Republican. They have all sorts of "splinter"-groups: Tea Parties and Libertarians, etc. Except they all serve the same purpose, which is to simply re-brand Republicans for those moments where it's just a little too hard to call oneself a Republican. Our two-party system is a long ruin. One party is monstrous, the other is the leftovers (and you can apply that either way you like). But the problem is the people that are the first to ride off on the high-horse are the last people I'd want to elect. Jill Stein, etc. The only way to get serious 3rd party national candidates is through legislation. Campaign-finance reform on a major scale, one that treats 1st Amendment speech and monetary-funding as actual separate issues (thanks to the undemocratic dumbfucks on the Supreme Court). Completely publicly-funded, which is how they should be. Until you fix that, national-scale 3rd parties are actually a giant problem. They're begging for corruption and abuse, as practically, they're nothing more than a short-term political-weapon used to erode one party's base, and as such, you'd be stupid to trust them. ex: Jill Stein. | ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
| ||
|
GreenHorizons
United States24483 Posts
You guys' argument reminds me of the monkeys in the step ladder experiment. | ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
| ||
|
zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On November 24 2017 00:53 GreenHorizons wrote: This is a sad conversation, but I'll just remind people that less than 1/3 of the country voted for the winning presidential candidate. You guys' argument reminds me of the monkeys in the step ladder experiment. a) we already knew that, your reminder doesn't change anything. b) nice ad hominem, but I don't get the reference. at any rate, you need to get better arguments yourself. | ||
|
GreenHorizons
United States24483 Posts
On November 24 2017 00:58 Plansix wrote: The solution is to build a third party and run in state elections. That is how all political parties start. I mean a socialist did just beat the incumbent Virginia Republican House Whip. But he did have a D next to his name. So maybe Democrats need to rethink their position on socialism and we won't need a new party (for now), otherwise I hear DSA is winning seats. We shouldn't need a new party, Democrats should see their errors and adjust. But that would be if they were a real political party. They aren't. They, like Republicans, are a front for their corporate donors mingled with some unwitting dupes. So instead they take a hard line and say "come to us or flounder in obscurity". Nope. Not coming. You come to us or lose until the shit fest of losing to idiots like Trump makes you (rank and file Democrats) realize we're the less bad option. | ||
| ||
