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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 9306

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
November 22 2017 20:00 GMT
#186101
On November 23 2017 04:36 Plansix wrote:
Sentencing guidelines are fine. Mandatory ones that attempt cover all possible reasons the law could be violated are travesties of justice and have lead to the mass incarcerations over minor drug charges. They are a flaws premise that the way combat human error by judges is to mandate human error by the legislature through a “system.”

or the problem is that the system isn't sufficiently expansive and adaptive to cover all those situations; which it certainly could be if it was constructed intelligently, though I wouldn't count on legislators to do it right.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
a_flayer
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Netherlands2826 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-23 01:56:39
November 22 2017 20:03 GMT
#186102
When you came along so righteous with a new national hate, so convincing is the ardor of war and of men, it's harder to breathe than to believe you're a friend. The wars at home, the wars abroad, all soaked in blood and lies and fraud.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
November 22 2017 20:09 GMT
#186103
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-22 20:15:22
November 22 2017 20:13 GMT
#186104
Reading that story, I really hope he doesn't step down (well, except the part of me that wants a Democratic House and thus wants every R incumbent out). Sending nude pictures of yourself is dumb, especially when you have your face in them while in a public position, but if you're separated from your wife and dating other people and in the process you show them what you look like naked it shouldn't be some heinous crime.

If anything I hope this promotes the push for federal regulation of real revenge porn.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-22 20:19:58
November 22 2017 20:15 GMT
#186105
On November 23 2017 05:00 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2017 04:36 Plansix wrote:
Sentencing guidelines are fine. Mandatory ones that attempt cover all possible reasons the law could be violated are travesties of justice and have lead to the mass incarcerations over minor drug charges. They are a flaws premise that the way combat human error by judges is to mandate human error by the legislature through a “system.”

or the problem is that the system isn't sufficiently expansive and adaptive to cover all those situations; which it certainly could be if it was constructed intelligently, though I wouldn't count on legislators to do it right.

Judges could just set sentences using the guidelines written by the legislature and go outside those guidelines when they felt was necessary. The legislature could even require that the judge provide a detailed brief as to why they felt the sentence should be reduced. There is no perfect system, so lets go with the one that places faith in the professional judgment and putting those decisions down on the record.

Edit: Federal laws addressing revenge porn would be very good. It is completely unaddressed by most states. We are long overdue for laws addressing online abuses like doxing, revenge porn and harassment.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-22 20:24:18
November 22 2017 20:24 GMT
#186106
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11554 Posts
November 22 2017 20:28 GMT
#186107
On November 23 2017 05:13 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Reading that story, I really hope he doesn't step down (well, except the part of me that wants a Democratic House and thus wants every R incumbent out). Sending nude pictures of yourself is dumb, especially when you have your face in them while in a public position, but if you're separated from your wife and dating other people and in the process you show them what you look like naked it shouldn't be some heinous crime.

If anything I hope this promotes the push for federal regulation of real revenge porn.


Yeah, not really a problem imo.

Sending nudes of you around (To consenting adult people) is stupid, but not really problematic. Don't see why that would mean that he "let his constituents down" or anything like that.
doomdonker
Profile Joined October 2017
90 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-22 20:39:45
November 22 2017 20:37 GMT
#186108
On November 22 2017 23:27 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 22 2017 23:18 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:




I can't believe he'd say "poor man's don king". god damn. So many things wrong with that.

This dad is certainly weird though. Comes across as very opportunistic. I really get the feeling he is enough of a shit to raise a kid who is enough of a shit to steal sunglasses. The kid is obviously shit, Trump is obviously shit and the dad is somewhat shit.

That being said, I would handle this situation identically to the father. He is no doubt being compensated for his interviews and whatnot. I dunno what kinda career he has, but this has to be a good use of his time. Being the recent colored person in a feud with Trump is good money. I imagine there will be some kind of gofundme or some shit eventually.


LaVar is the dad of Lonzo Ball, 2nd pick of the NBA draft and starter for the LA Lakers. He has two other kids he's also trying to promote and inflate their worth.

All of this is to promote his Big Baller Brand. A good number of people don't like LaVar but he actually does seem like a man who genuinely loves his kids and wants his kids to have good lives. He doesn't need a gofundme because, unlike Donald Trump, he's actually an example of a man with actual hustle.

On November 23 2017 05:28 Simberto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2017 05:13 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Reading that story, I really hope he doesn't step down (well, except the part of me that wants a Democratic House and thus wants every R incumbent out). Sending nude pictures of yourself is dumb, especially when you have your face in them while in a public position, but if you're separated from your wife and dating other people and in the process you show them what you look like naked it shouldn't be some heinous crime.

If anything I hope this promotes the push for federal regulation of real revenge porn.


Yeah, not really a problem imo.

Sending nudes of you around (To consenting adult people) is stupid, but not really problematic. Don't see why that would mean that he "let his constituents down" or anything like that.


Its Texas. He also definitely doesn't mean it, its just something to say.
mozoku
Profile Joined September 2012
United States708 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-22 20:52:58
November 22 2017 20:52 GMT
#186109
On November 23 2017 05:00 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2017 04:36 Plansix wrote:
Sentencing guidelines are fine. Mandatory ones that attempt cover all possible reasons the law could be violated are travesties of justice and have lead to the mass incarcerations over minor drug charges. They are a flaws premise that the way combat human error by judges is to mandate human error by the legislature through a “system.”

or the problem is that the system isn't sufficiently expansive and adaptive to cover all those situations; which it certainly could be if it was constructed intelligently, though I wouldn't count on legislators to do it right.

Well there's an infinite number of potential contexts for even a single crime, so that system is going to take a while to develop. Even for the smartest man alive. You're literally guaranteed to fail with a sufficiently large number of cases.

The law and judgment of humans are far too complex to be treated like you would a computing problem.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18832 Posts
November 22 2017 20:52 GMT
#186110
It's a mistake to view those selfies and Barton's apology in a vacuum; this man campaigns on family values and the notion that giving homosexuals rights will erode the moral fabric of society. This man isn't reprehensible because he sent a nude pic, rather because he's a hypocritical piece of shit.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23295 Posts
November 22 2017 20:55 GMT
#186111
On November 23 2017 01:47 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2017 01:06 Mohdoo wrote:
Update on Portland's militant activists trying to artificially cram women of color into public office:

http://www.wweek.com/news/city/2017/11/21/should-a-portland-city-council-seat-be-reserved-for-a-woman-of-color/

This Spencer guy ended up getting his own article in a local publication, lol. This is a really interesting situation and shows an increasingly common dynamic. Spencer was basically a nobody and had zero chance of winning from the beginning. His page was just like 20 of his friends liking his stupid FB page out of sympathy. But after the insane side of BLM started showing up to comment sections going completely batshit crazy on the guy, people felt compelled to defend him who otherwise would have never considered supporting him. Look at the comments in this thread and you'll see people overwhelmingly disagreeing with the idea of reserving city council seats for women of color. People are interested in who has the most experience. These otherwise very liberal people are speaking out against the fringe, crazy sub-community within BLM.

So what did these activists accomplish? People felt compelled to speak up against extreme thinking. Extreme thinkinking scares people and compels people to speak up when they otherwise would not have. By spamming stuff about how white people are inherently morally corrupt and all sorts of other stuff, otherwise totally liberal people (the publication I linked is very, very liberal leaning) are pulling back and thinking "whoa there, I don't agree with that". These activists didn't just turn people away, they inspired people to oppose their activism. They hurt the credibility of more compassionate, inclusive activists by muddying the water. Now, when people see pushes to support women of color for city council next time, people will roll their eyes and assume it is this same fringe activism.

Now, I still fully expect a woman of color to win, and rightfully so. Jo Ann Hardesty has a long history in government and is very well suited for the position. She is the clear favorite in this election. The others have a less than stellar history...most notably Spencer. But this was still an interesting example in how extremism actually isolates rather than inspires.

This entire article seems to be focused around Online backslash to a local election. I have no way to knowing if it represents the local population or if it is just a bunch of people online having a Woke Off. At the end of the day, the other candidates welcomed him and people did discuss that a black person hasn’t held a seat in 25 years.


I'm not into the "support ____ identity" blindly, but it's pretty clear Mohdoo doesn't get it.

Spencer and sensitive supporters need to grow up and deal with people telling him he's an asshole for running.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
November 22 2017 20:59 GMT
#186112
On November 23 2017 05:52 mozoku wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2017 05:00 zlefin wrote:
On November 23 2017 04:36 Plansix wrote:
Sentencing guidelines are fine. Mandatory ones that attempt cover all possible reasons the law could be violated are travesties of justice and have lead to the mass incarcerations over minor drug charges. They are a flaws premise that the way combat human error by judges is to mandate human error by the legislature through a “system.”

or the problem is that the system isn't sufficiently expansive and adaptive to cover all those situations; which it certainly could be if it was constructed intelligently, though I wouldn't count on legislators to do it right.

Well there's an infinite number of potential contexts for even a single crime, so that system is going to take a while to develop. Even for the smartest man alive. You're literally guaranteed to fail with a sufficiently large number of cases.

The law and judgment of humans are far too complex to be treated like you would a computing problem.

that's why I said it would be adaptive. it's also not that hard to develop as long as you use the right framework it develops itself from there. but it'd take too long to properly go over in thread; mostly it's just not clear from my post how thoroughly all those things are already covered by a proper system, and you're not seeing what i'm thinking, because it's infeasible to transmit that information and i'm not that good at expressing it.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
November 22 2017 20:59 GMT
#186113
The release of the so-called “Paradise Papers” touched off new scrutiny of how moguls, celebrities and politicians stash their cash in offshore tax havens. The practice, though, is hardly limited to the global elite. In fact, government documents show that state and local officials have sent hundreds of billions of dollars of public sector workers’ retirement savings to a tiny archipelago most famous for white-sand beaches — and laws that shield investors from taxes.

Operating outside the U.S. legal system, the offshore accounts in the Cayman Islands give Wall Street firms leeway to make complex international investments and to earn big fees off investors' capital. But with offshore accounts featuring prominently in high-profile Ponzi schemes, some critics warn that the use of tax havens can endanger the retirement savings of millions of teachers, firefighters, cops and other public workers — a situation that could put taxpayers on the hook for losses if the investments go bust, or the money goes missing.

The tidal wave of cash has flowed from public pension systems into so-called “alternative investments”: private equity, hedge funds, venture capital firms and real estate. While many alternative investment firms operate in Lower Manhattan, more than a third of all the cash in those private funds flows through vehicles domiciled in the Caymans, according to Securities and Exchange Commission records reviewed by International Business Times. Those same records show that public pension plans, university endowments and other nonprofits have funneled a massive $1.8 trillion into alternative investments.

“Based on SEC data, it appears that public pensions alone hold around $300 billion offshore in the Cayman Islands in hedge funds and private equity,” said Chris Tobe, a former state pension trustee and author of the book “Kentucky Fried Pensions.”

In recent years, SEC regulators have tried to crack down on alternative investment firms’ fee schemes that regulators say can end up enriching money managers at the expense of investors. At the same time, state officials and investor groups have pushed for more transparency in the alternative investment industry as a whole.

But with so many of the investments now running through a maze of shell companies in lightly regulated tax havens, some experts say the outflow creates the conditions for rampant fee abuse and financial shenanigans — and prevents pension officials and law enforcement officials from even knowing exactly where billions of dollars of public money is being held.

“The additional risks related to investing in funds established, regulated and custodied in tax havens are real,” former SEC attorney Edward Siedle has warned.

A trove of confidential hedge fund documents reviewed by IBT shows that major financial industry players acknowledge some of the potential risks that can arise when money is invested outside the United States. The documents show that in the fine print of their agreements, the firms admit that shifting cash to less-well-regulated foreign locales can end up putting money into brokerages that may not adhere to traditional banking regulations. They also acknowledge that moving money into international securities can reduce basic protections for investors and ultimately increase the risk of significant losses.

“How does investing in funds established in loosely regulated offshore tax havens benefit government workers — participants in a pension that doesn’t even pay taxes?” Siedle has written.

One answer to that question, say lawyers, involves pension systems seeking to preserve their existing tax exemptions. Under laws passed in the 1960s, those tax-exempt entities would have to pay taxes on the kinds of debt-financed earnings involved in private equity and hedge fund investments — but they can avoid those levies if they first route their investments through “blocker” corporations in tax-free jurisdictions like the Caymans.

“This is very standard planning — it’s a plain vanilla technique,” said the Tax Policy Center’s Steven Rosenthal, a former partner at the global law firm Ropes & Gray LLP, who advised universities on investments.

Public pension systems vary in how they report their investments. Many simply list the firms that are managing retirees’ money, but not where the firms are located, or whether the funds are ultimately being moved offshore. However, occasional references to offshore funds are scattered throughout public filings.

In South Carolina, for instance, the annual report for the government workers’ retirement system listed nearly $60 million invested in a Cayman-based fund run by Reservoir Capital Partners, which received more than $2 million in fees from the state last year. In New Jersey, state investment officials have in recent years committed more than a quarter-billion dollars of state pension money to hedge funds based in the Cayman Islands and Bermuda, the country at the center of the Paradise Papers controversy. And in Texas, a 2015 report from the teachers retirement system showed the state paying a combined $13 million in fees to Cayman-based funds run by Bain Capital and Soroban Capital Partners.

Siedle told IBT that Wall Street firms may set up shell corporations in tax havens “not to help public pension fund investors, but really to protect the managers from taxes and regulations.”

A 2008 Government Accountability Office report detailed some of the potential benefits financial managers can glean from domiciling their operations in the Caymans. The agency found that “some U.S. persons can minimize their U.S. tax obligations by using Cayman Islands entities to defer U.S. taxes on foreign income.” GAO also warned that “some persons have conducted financial activity in the Cayman Islands in an attempt to avoid discovery and prosecution of illegal activity by the United States.”

Law firms openly promote the benefits of offshore investment vehicles.

“The tax exempt, tax transparent, non-regulated and highly flexible nature of the [exempted limited partnership] and the absence of regulatory or licensing requirements touching the general partner, together with the flexibility of the Cayman Islands exempted limited company, combine to make the Cayman Islands the preeminent jurisdiction for offshore private equity funds,” said a recent memo from Mourant Ozannes, an offshore law firm whose website says it is “advising many of the world's foremost financial institutions” on the laws in the Caymans, British Virgin Islands, Guernsey and Jersey.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15714 Posts
November 22 2017 21:36 GMT
#186114
Facebook is apparently going to inform users if they were duped by Russian propaganda.

http://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-will-let-some-users-see-the-russian-pages-they-interacted-with-2017-11


Facebook said on Wednesday that it would let some of its users see whether they liked or followed pages belonging to Russia-linked operatives that sought to sow political divisiveness around the 2016 US presidential election.

A new page to be published on Facebook's help center by the end of the year will show whether some accounts interacted with the Russia-linked accounts, Facebook said in a blog post.

"This is part of our ongoing effort to protect our platforms and the people who use them from bad actors who try to undermine our democracy," Facebook said.

Roughly 150 million Facebook users saw posts shared by pages belonging to the Russian propaganda organization known as the Internet Research Agency, Facebook previously told US investigators.


Some activists are going to be reallllly salty when they realize (and then deny) they were manipulated by an oligarchy.
Excludos
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Norway8111 Posts
November 22 2017 21:47 GMT
#186115
On November 23 2017 06:36 Mohdoo wrote:
Facebook is apparently going to inform users if they were duped by Russian propaganda.

http://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-will-let-some-users-see-the-russian-pages-they-interacted-with-2017-11

Show nested quote +

Facebook said on Wednesday that it would let some of its users see whether they liked or followed pages belonging to Russia-linked operatives that sought to sow political divisiveness around the 2016 US presidential election.

A new page to be published on Facebook's help center by the end of the year will show whether some accounts interacted with the Russia-linked accounts, Facebook said in a blog post.

"This is part of our ongoing effort to protect our platforms and the people who use them from bad actors who try to undermine our democracy," Facebook said.

Roughly 150 million Facebook users saw posts shared by pages belonging to the Russian propaganda organization known as the Internet Research Agency, Facebook previously told US investigators.


Some activists are going to be reallllly salty when they realize (and then deny) they were manipulated by an oligarchy.


I wonder if they'll release statistics for everyone to see?
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15714 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-22 21:58:49
November 22 2017 21:52 GMT
#186116
On November 23 2017 06:47 Excludos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2017 06:36 Mohdoo wrote:
Facebook is apparently going to inform users if they were duped by Russian propaganda.

http://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-will-let-some-users-see-the-russian-pages-they-interacted-with-2017-11


Facebook said on Wednesday that it would let some of its users see whether they liked or followed pages belonging to Russia-linked operatives that sought to sow political divisiveness around the 2016 US presidential election.

A new page to be published on Facebook's help center by the end of the year will show whether some accounts interacted with the Russia-linked accounts, Facebook said in a blog post.

"This is part of our ongoing effort to protect our platforms and the people who use them from bad actors who try to undermine our democracy," Facebook said.

Roughly 150 million Facebook users saw posts shared by pages belonging to the Russian propaganda organization known as the Internet Research Agency, Facebook previously told US investigators.


Some activists are going to be reallllly salty when they realize (and then deny) they were manipulated by an oligarchy.


I wonder if they'll release statistics for everyone to see?


It would be interesting to see total views. When you see "batshit insane friend liked 'REVOLUTION KILL ALL CAPITALISTS' photo" and it is some kinda Clinton slave trade stuff, that is still reaching people. I am sure a lot of people were slowly convinced of certain beliefs just from a constant stream of certain people on facebook liking all these crazy ass posts. Sure, only 10,000 people 'liked' the post. But each like is projected to 100+ people.
Excludos
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Norway8111 Posts
November 22 2017 22:11 GMT
#186117
On November 23 2017 06:52 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2017 06:47 Excludos wrote:
On November 23 2017 06:36 Mohdoo wrote:
Facebook is apparently going to inform users if they were duped by Russian propaganda.

http://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-will-let-some-users-see-the-russian-pages-they-interacted-with-2017-11


Facebook said on Wednesday that it would let some of its users see whether they liked or followed pages belonging to Russia-linked operatives that sought to sow political divisiveness around the 2016 US presidential election.

A new page to be published on Facebook's help center by the end of the year will show whether some accounts interacted with the Russia-linked accounts, Facebook said in a blog post.

"This is part of our ongoing effort to protect our platforms and the people who use them from bad actors who try to undermine our democracy," Facebook said.

Roughly 150 million Facebook users saw posts shared by pages belonging to the Russian propaganda organization known as the Internet Research Agency, Facebook previously told US investigators.


Some activists are going to be reallllly salty when they realize (and then deny) they were manipulated by an oligarchy.


I wonder if they'll release statistics for everyone to see?


It would be interesting to see total views. When you see "batshit insane friend liked 'REVOLUTION KILL ALL CAPITALISTS' photo" and it is some kinda Clinton slave trade stuff, that is still reaching people. I am sure a lot of people were slowly convinced of certain beliefs just from a constant stream of certain people on facebook liking all these crazy ass posts. Sure, only 10,000 people 'liked' the post. But each like is projected to 100+ people.


Also in before people start shouting that Facebook is a liberal propaganda tool.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-22 22:15:08
November 22 2017 22:13 GMT
#186118
On November 23 2017 05:37 doomdonker wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 22 2017 23:27 Mohdoo wrote:
On November 22 2017 23:18 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/933280234220134401

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/933282274937733126


I can't believe he'd say "poor man's don king". god damn. So many things wrong with that.

This dad is certainly weird though. Comes across as very opportunistic. I really get the feeling he is enough of a shit to raise a kid who is enough of a shit to steal sunglasses. The kid is obviously shit, Trump is obviously shit and the dad is somewhat shit.

That being said, I would handle this situation identically to the father. He is no doubt being compensated for his interviews and whatnot. I dunno what kinda career he has, but this has to be a good use of his time. Being the recent colored person in a feud with Trump is good money. I imagine there will be some kind of gofundme or some shit eventually.


LaVar is the dad of Lonzo Ball, 2nd pick of the NBA draft and starter for the LA Lakers. He has two other kids he's also trying to promote and inflate their worth.

All of this is to promote his Big Baller Brand. A good number of people don't like LaVar but he actually does seem like a man who genuinely loves his kids and wants his kids to have good lives. He doesn't need a gofundme because, unlike Donald Trump, he's actually an example of a man with actual hustle.

Show nested quote +
On November 23 2017 05:28 Simberto wrote:
On November 23 2017 05:13 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Reading that story, I really hope he doesn't step down (well, except the part of me that wants a Democratic House and thus wants every R incumbent out). Sending nude pictures of yourself is dumb, especially when you have your face in them while in a public position, but if you're separated from your wife and dating other people and in the process you show them what you look like naked it shouldn't be some heinous crime.

If anything I hope this promotes the push for federal regulation of real revenge porn.


Yeah, not really a problem imo.

Sending nudes of you around (To consenting adult people) is stupid, but not really problematic. Don't see why that would mean that he "let his constituents down" or anything like that.


Its Texas. He also definitely doesn't mean it, its just something to say.


So are there people who defend this Don King quote from Trump, other than Pepe impersonators on Twitter?

+ Show Spoiler +
Look, Trump has a black friend.

[image loading]
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
November 22 2017 22:14 GMT
#186119
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
November 22 2017 22:35 GMT
#186120
Remember when Obama took credit for Christmas presents bring delivered on time? Or the sun rising in the east?
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
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