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On November 09 2017 23:35 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2017 23:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:
When the cutoff is at $11 million for a household, clearly you can still accumulate generational wealth. It's not like they take 100% beyond that either. (Tbh, I'd personally be kinda fine with that. :D Or it should probably also depend on how many beneficiaries there are, but I don't see the fairness or benefit from any individual being given more than $5 million for 'being in the same family as someone'. So maybe rather than calculating it based on the value of the estate, have the cutoff be decided by how much each recipient gets. )
I don't see the societal benefit from individuals being billionaires. I get 'they invest and create jobs', but I've never seen any compelling evidence that one individual holding 1 billion creates more, better jobs than 200 individuals holding $5 million does. (Or that there being one company valued at $1 billion is better for the economy than 200 companies worth $5 million). All the bipartisan talk about 'small business being the backbone of american economy' really doesn't seem to match up with policy geared towards benefiting small businesses (which must, naturally, come at the expense of big business). The way I see it, it's impossible to accumulate $1 billion without having massively underpaid workers helping your company thrive, and while I prefer methods like increased worker ownership or limiting CEO pay to X amounts of entry level pay over taxation as a means of redistribution, if you do allow CEOs to make 600 times entry level pay then the redistribution must be done through other means. And if people aren't taxed sufficiently during their life times, then it has to happen at death.
Everybody idealizes the meritocracy. But a meritocracy is incompatible with an aristocracy, the US can't pretend to be the former while enacting policies that benefit the latter. The wealth you've earned and has been taxed that the government allows you to give to your children and grandchildren ... Examining how much property individuals attain in terms of net societal benefit as compared to pay cap ... catching up on presumed inadequate taxation over their lives ... allowing CEOs to make X redistribution must be done. I shudder to think you're probably talking in good faith here. No individuals but only servants of societal benefit, no unjust policies but only the ends justify the means, and so transparently the politics of envy but without attendant shame. I really hate to think this may be what we're headed towards. You aren't being taxed when you die. Your children and grandchildren are being taxed for a sudden burst of income. If you just handed them 10 million dollars that would also be subject to tax. If you don't want to give your money to anyone, it isn't taxed. Of course, it also just goes directly to the government, but that's your choice.
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On November 09 2017 03:58 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2017 03:54 ShoCkeyy wrote:
That tax plan they released looks good for me, but with the current tax plan, I'm getting fucked in taxes. I'm positive this year alone, I've paid 40% easily in taxes some how... And then they wonder why the "middle class" disappeared... A) Fix your withholding (or stop counting payroll taxes) B) The "middle class" hasn't disappeared. What happened was the working poor got fucked by changing economic conditions. C) Nobody paying 40% in taxes (incidentally the top bracket is 39.6% and that's marginal rate, not average rate, so even if you're paid a billion dollars in W-2 income you still won't hit exactly 39.6%) is getting fucked, what is happening is they're getting paid a fortune and only keeping half a fortune D) Cutting taxes can't be looked at in isolation, otherwise cutting taxes would always be good. Cut taxes means cut services, or increased borrowing. Either way you need to weigh that in too. If you gain $1,000 in reduced taxes and lose $2,000 in essential services which you now have to pay out of pocket you did not receive a tax cut.
So I did the math, and it's actually like 30% that I'm being taken out. Then they have the nerve to say I still owe taxes when I do my income tax. This year alone, I haven't broke six figures yet, but I'm very close to, and I feel like I've only been paid half of what I made this year.
And that's with taxes, I can't imagine how much more they would steal from me if I didn't have a 401k. I also gotta check on my withholding for sure.
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United States44286 Posts
On November 10 2017 00:05 ShoCkeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2017 03:58 KwarK wrote:On November 09 2017 03:54 ShoCkeyy wrote:
That tax plan they released looks good for me, but with the current tax plan, I'm getting fucked in taxes. I'm positive this year alone, I've paid 40% easily in taxes some how... And then they wonder why the "middle class" disappeared... A) Fix your withholding (or stop counting payroll taxes) B) The "middle class" hasn't disappeared. What happened was the working poor got fucked by changing economic conditions. C) Nobody paying 40% in taxes (incidentally the top bracket is 39.6% and that's marginal rate, not average rate, so even if you're paid a billion dollars in W-2 income you still won't hit exactly 39.6%) is getting fucked, what is happening is they're getting paid a fortune and only keeping half a fortune D) Cutting taxes can't be looked at in isolation, otherwise cutting taxes would always be good. Cut taxes means cut services, or increased borrowing. Either way you need to weigh that in too. If you gain $1,000 in reduced taxes and lose $2,000 in essential services which you now have to pay out of pocket you did not receive a tax cut. So I did the math, and it's actually like 30% that I'm being taken out. Then they have the nerve to say I still owe taxes when I do my income tax. This year alone, I haven't broke six figures yet, but I'm very close to, and I feel like I've only been paid half of what I made this year. And that's with taxes, I can't imagine how much more they would steal from me if I didn't have a 401k. I also gotta check on my withholding for sure.
They're not stealing from you. Taxation isn't theft. Grow the hell up.
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Within minutes of NBC News’ calling Virginia’s gubernatorial election for Ralph Northam on Tuesday night, Democratic National Committee chairman Tom Perez phoned into MSNBC to celebrate. “I’m feeling incredibly optimistic,” he said when host Chris Hayes asked about Democratic gains in the state’s House of Delegates. “The author of the anti-transgender bathroom bill just got defeated by a woman named Danica Roem—a transgender woman who is a spectacular candidate.”
Perez proceeded to name-check Elizabeth Guzman and Hala Ayala, the first Latinas ever elected to the House, but then Hayes asked him about another candidate—one who’d barely received any national attention throughout the campaign. “There’s also, I believe, a Marine veteran who identifies as a democratic socialist who, if I’m not mistaken, is running competitively with someone in the House GOP leadership,” he said. “The House GOP whip might lose to a socialist Marine veteran? Is that actually happening?”
It was indeed. Democrat Lee Carter, a red-haired, 30-year-old Marine veteran from Manassas, won a remarkable nine-point victory to oust Delegate Jackson Miller, a deep-pocketed Republican incumbent who serves as House Majority Whip. Carter ran openly as a socialist—he and his supporters crooned the union anthem “Solidarity Forever” after their victory—and he won with almost no institutional support from the state Democratic Party. The Richmond Times-Dispatch’s Patrick Wilson reported last month that party leaders “abandoned” Carter after he declined to report campaign metrics like the number of doors he’d knocked and the amount of money he’d raised. Carter told Wilson he “ceased reporting to the House caucus after multiple information security lapses in which confidential information that we reported to the House caucus was leaked outside of the party infrastructure.” But he also said the party leaders “wanted a bit more editorial control over my messaging than I was comfortable with.” Wilson wrote that “Democratic Party leaders were not eager to discuss Carter, preferring to promote other candidates.” In fact, Wilson called Carter “the kind of rogue candidate that gives an apparatus like the Democratic Party of Virginia a fit.”
Carter did receive funding from Democratic-aligned groups and $13,000 from the Democratic Party of Virginia, as well as support from WinVA, a PAC supporting Democratic House candidates run by former congressman and gubernatorial primary candidate Tom Perriello, according to a campaign finance report uploaded by The Intercept’s Lee Fang. But Carter’s victory is a testament to his own campaign and the work of outside groups, including the D.C. chapter of the Democratic Socialists of America, which caught the rising Democratic wave that swept even unlikely candidates into office on Tuesday.
It’s fitting that Carter’s campaign ended with a shocking result, because it was inspired by a literal shock two summers ago. “I was installing lighting control systems and I got shocked because the lighting control panel I was working on was miswired by an electrician,” he told me in Manassas last month. “I got a 245-volt shock—in one hand, out the other—right across the chest.” He blew out his back in the incident. He could barely walk for months. His frustrating battle with the state to get workers’ compensation for his injury inspired him to enter politics. “When I was able to walk again,” he told me, “I decided I’m not just going to walk. I’m going to run for something because nobody should have to go through this.”
Carter came to his political ideology recently—as in, just last year. “I was actually already running by the time I considered socialism as an economic philosophy,” he told me. “My introduction to it actually came through the presidential campaign of Bernie Sanders. He went out there and said, ‘I’m a democratic socialist. Here’s what that means: It means I believe in strong unions, health care for everybody, and an end to discrimination.’ Well, that’s what I believe in, too. I dug a little more into it, and I realized a lot of the problems we have in today’s society reflected in electoral politics are symptoms of economic problems.”
Carter said he’s “always been a bit to the left of where the Democratic Party was, and a little dissatisfied with what they were doing on a large scale, and never knew why. It wasn’t until Bernie Sanders’s presidential campaign that I put two and two together. I looked up to guys like FDR and Democrats of that era who were really rooted in working class politics. They had these mass movements of union workers who stood up and said ‘we’re not going to be mistreated by corporate interests anymore,’ and they were able to achieve 50 year of stability and prosperity for this country. I always wondered why Democrats couldn’t act like that again.”
Miller, the Republican candidate, naturally didn’t see Carter’s socialism as part of a proud American tradition. After largely ignoring him for most of the campaign, he sent out mailers comparing Carter to Joseph Stalin and Mao Zedong. But Carter told me his own campaigning focused on the issues, including single-payer health care and getting money out of politics, which resonated with voters. “What we do when we get out there and talk to voters is get past the label entirely,” he said. “My literature and all my paid communications are just about what I want to do when I go down to Richmond. In fact, my mail consultant had to add the word ‘Democrat’ to my walk cards at the last minute before he sent them to the printer.”
At the same time, Carter was happy to talk about socialism when asked. “If you’re to the left of Barry Goldwater, Republicans are going to call you a socialist anyway, so you may as well just own the label,” he said. “The issues that I care about and the issues that the Democratic Socialists of America are working on are the issues that the Democratic Party’s voter base cares about.”
Carter worked well with his local Democratic Party throughout the campaign, but acknowledged the state party was a different story. “On the state level, it is a bit more strained,” he said. “The corporations I’m actively attacking fund the state party. It’s obviously going to create some tension.” Yet despite this dynamic, he and his team were confident they could win based on a simple numbers game. They knew Miller had never received more than 9,500 votes in the district, and they believed they’d found enough voters to exceed that. As it turned out, Miller won 9,510 votes on Tuesday, but Carter won 11,360.
Plenty of the credit for this race belongs to a cadre of idealistic young people, since much of the ground organizing came from local members of the Democratic Socialists of America. The group’s D.C. chapter endorsed Carter, and one of the chapter’s leaders, 22-year-old American University graduate Jacquelyn Smith, managed his campaign. On Tuesday night, she tweeted that Carter’s election is a bellwether of future success.
Long before he knew the results, Carter believed something similar about his campaign—that it could demonstrate how bold ideas are the pathway to rebuilding the Democratic Party. “Honestly, there are a lot of candidates who are playing it safe, but playing it safe is not the safe bet anymore,” he told me last month. “That’s the big takeaway I got from all of 2016. The center doesn’t hold. We had Bernie Sanders on the left. We had Donald Trump on the right. Things are completely different. The parties are due for a realignment, and who knows how that’s going to shake out.”
Those weren’t quite the tea leaves Tom Perez was reading on MSNBC. He didn’t say much about Carter, even after Hayes brought him up. But on a night of surprising success for his party, the chairman did say this much: “There are a lot of remarkable things going on tonight in the House of Delegates races.”
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On November 09 2017 23:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:
When the cutoff is at $11 million for a household, clearly you can still accumulate generational wealth. It's not like they take 100% beyond that either. (Tbh, I'd personally be kinda fine with that. :D Or it should probably also depend on how many beneficiaries there are, but I don't see the fairness or benefit from any individual being given more than $5 million for 'being in the same family as someone'. So maybe rather than calculating it based on the value of the estate, have the cutoff be decided by how much each recipient gets. )
I don't see the societal benefit from individuals being billionaires. I get 'they invest and create jobs', but I've never seen any compelling evidence that one individual holding 1 billion creates more, better jobs than 200 individuals holding $5 million does. (Or that there being one company valued at $1 billion is better for the economy than 200 companies worth $5 million). All the bipartisan talk about 'small business being the backbone of american economy' really doesn't seem to match up with policy geared towards benefiting small businesses (which must, naturally, come at the expense of big business). The way I see it, it's impossible to accumulate $1 billion without having massively underpaid workers helping your company thrive, and while I prefer methods like increased worker ownership or limiting CEO pay to X amounts of entry level pay over taxation as a means of redistribution, if you do allow CEOs to make 600 times entry level pay then the redistribution must be done through other means. And if people aren't taxed sufficiently during their lifetimes, then it has to happen at death.
Everybody idealizes the meritocracy. But a meritocracy is incompatible with an aristocracy, the US can't pretend to be the former while enacting policies that benefit the latter.
Haven't thought a lot about it but to me a system based on how you use whatever it is you are inheriting sounds a lot better than just calculating different brackets depending on value.
This goes for both the example from GH of small/medium sized companies that get inherited as well as anything else really.
Basicly if you're actively using a house to live there I'm completly fine with it not getting taxed tbh.
If you're carrying on a company from your Dad I would be completly fine with it not being taxed as well, even if it's beyond the 5mio US$ tag.
If on the other hand you're treating both as money and sell company, rent houses or whatever (let's say within a given timeframe I don't have to specify here) that's where taxes should happen imo.
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United States44286 Posts
One thing that needs to be mentioned with inheritance tax is the step up in basis. Let's say your grandpa bought a house in New York for $10,000 in 1960. It's now worth a million dollars. The taxable gain on sale would be $990,000 (although there's actually an exclusion of $250,000 for a primary residence so it'd really be $740,000 for anyone feeling keen). Grandpa's house has a built in tax owed of, say, $185,000 ($740k * 25% arbitrary numbers). So he has a house worth $1m with a tax liability of $185k. If he dies and passes the house to you then you only get the house, not the tax liability. If you sell it after grandpa dies then you're treated as if you bought it for the value it had on the day he died, not the value he paid for it.
What this means is that not only are estates tax free, they're actually tax advantaged. The assets are transferred but the deferred tax liabilities attached to the assets are not.
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On November 10 2017 00:05 ShoCkeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2017 03:58 KwarK wrote:On November 09 2017 03:54 ShoCkeyy wrote:
That tax plan they released looks good for me, but with the current tax plan, I'm getting fucked in taxes. I'm positive this year alone, I've paid 40% easily in taxes some how... And then they wonder why the "middle class" disappeared... A) Fix your withholding (or stop counting payroll taxes) B) The "middle class" hasn't disappeared. What happened was the working poor got fucked by changing economic conditions. C) Nobody paying 40% in taxes (incidentally the top bracket is 39.6% and that's marginal rate, not average rate, so even if you're paid a billion dollars in W-2 income you still won't hit exactly 39.6%) is getting fucked, what is happening is they're getting paid a fortune and only keeping half a fortune D) Cutting taxes can't be looked at in isolation, otherwise cutting taxes would always be good. Cut taxes means cut services, or increased borrowing. Either way you need to weigh that in too. If you gain $1,000 in reduced taxes and lose $2,000 in essential services which you now have to pay out of pocket you did not receive a tax cut. So I did the math, and it's actually like 30% that I'm being taken out. Then they have the nerve to say I still owe taxes when I do my income tax. This year alone, I haven't broke six figures yet, but I'm very close to, and I feel like I've only been paid half of what I made this year. And that's with taxes, I can't imagine how much more they would steal from me if I didn't have a 401k. I also gotta check on my withholding for sure.
Oh boo hoo hoo.
Do you drive on a road?
Walk on a sidewalk?
Can you call the police if your house is broken into?
Does a fire department come when your kitchens catches fire?
ect
What do you think pays for all that? Oh right, taxes.
Your care free life in a modern society is payed for by taxes.
No one likes to pay taxes but where are we without them? No government, no one to enforce laws, no roads, no one to stop your butcher from selling you bad meat.
Go look at global ranks for 'the best places to live", Funny how they tend to correlate to the amount of tax payed. it's almost as if there is a connection.
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On November 10 2017 00:07 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 00:05 ShoCkeyy wrote:On November 09 2017 03:58 KwarK wrote:On November 09 2017 03:54 ShoCkeyy wrote:
That tax plan they released looks good for me, but with the current tax plan, I'm getting fucked in taxes. I'm positive this year alone, I've paid 40% easily in taxes some how... And then they wonder why the "middle class" disappeared... A) Fix your withholding (or stop counting payroll taxes) B) The "middle class" hasn't disappeared. What happened was the working poor got fucked by changing economic conditions. C) Nobody paying 40% in taxes (incidentally the top bracket is 39.6% and that's marginal rate, not average rate, so even if you're paid a billion dollars in W-2 income you still won't hit exactly 39.6%) is getting fucked, what is happening is they're getting paid a fortune and only keeping half a fortune D) Cutting taxes can't be looked at in isolation, otherwise cutting taxes would always be good. Cut taxes means cut services, or increased borrowing. Either way you need to weigh that in too. If you gain $1,000 in reduced taxes and lose $2,000 in essential services which you now have to pay out of pocket you did not receive a tax cut. So I did the math, and it's actually like 30% that I'm being taken out. Then they have the nerve to say I still owe taxes when I do my income tax. This year alone, I haven't broke six figures yet, but I'm very close to, and I feel like I've only been paid half of what I made this year. And that's with taxes, I can't imagine how much more they would steal from me if I didn't have a 401k. I also gotta check on my withholding for sure. They're not stealing from you. Taxation isn't theft. Grow the hell up.
Nah it's not theft to you, yet I worked harder than the shitty politicians that get paid with it and still try to fuck me over. The boston tea party happened for a reason, why do corps get tax breaks, while the people get fucked. And when I don't know where all my taxes are going, who knows maybe a secret operative that will get a green beret killed, while being requested to pay more than what I should be paying, I can consider it theft.
I don't think it's about "growing the hell up", it's about seeing how shitty your government is being to the people. I don't mind paying for universal healthcare, but I know it's going to universal healthcare, yet our government doesn't care, and choose to ignore. You gotta also understand, I came from nothing, and having nothing, even lived on a the streets for a time in my life. While there are many useful things for taxes, they're definitely not being put to good use.
On November 10 2017 00:24 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 00:05 ShoCkeyy wrote:On November 09 2017 03:58 KwarK wrote:On November 09 2017 03:54 ShoCkeyy wrote:
That tax plan they released looks good for me, but with the current tax plan, I'm getting fucked in taxes. I'm positive this year alone, I've paid 40% easily in taxes some how... And then they wonder why the "middle class" disappeared... A) Fix your withholding (or stop counting payroll taxes) B) The "middle class" hasn't disappeared. What happened was the working poor got fucked by changing economic conditions. C) Nobody paying 40% in taxes (incidentally the top bracket is 39.6% and that's marginal rate, not average rate, so even if you're paid a billion dollars in W-2 income you still won't hit exactly 39.6%) is getting fucked, what is happening is they're getting paid a fortune and only keeping half a fortune D) Cutting taxes can't be looked at in isolation, otherwise cutting taxes would always be good. Cut taxes means cut services, or increased borrowing. Either way you need to weigh that in too. If you gain $1,000 in reduced taxes and lose $2,000 in essential services which you now have to pay out of pocket you did not receive a tax cut. So I did the math, and it's actually like 30% that I'm being taken out. Then they have the nerve to say I still owe taxes when I do my income tax. This year alone, I haven't broke six figures yet, but I'm very close to, and I feel like I've only been paid half of what I made this year. And that's with taxes, I can't imagine how much more they would steal from me if I didn't have a 401k. I also gotta check on my withholding for sure. Oh boo hoo hoo. Do you drive on a road? Walk on a sidewalk? Can you call the police if your house is broken into? Does a fire department come when your kitchens catches fire? ect What do you think pays for all that? Oh right, taxes. Your care free life in a modern society is payed for by taxes. No one likes to pay taxes but where are we without them? No government, no one to enforce laws, no roads, no one to stop your butcher from selling you bad meat. Go look at global ranks for 'the best places to live", Funny how they tend to correlate to the amount of tax payed. it's almost as if there is a connection.
This is ignorance at it's best. If you actually lived in the US you would see pot holes in all US roads, roads that have are being worked on from 20 years ago. You'll see sidewalks turned into green again because of not being maintained.
I don't need to call the police, I live in a state that if my house were broken into, I can use my gun to shoot the asshole. There is bad cops and good cops, the scary part is that bad cops exist way more. And only a person using water to turn off a grease fire calls the fire department, but your ignorance still shows, I don't mind paying those taxes.
I know it's going to that. And the difference between "best places to live" and the US is that everyone gets charged almost the same percent in taxes...
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United States44286 Posts
On November 10 2017 00:35 ShoCkeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 00:07 KwarK wrote:On November 10 2017 00:05 ShoCkeyy wrote:On November 09 2017 03:58 KwarK wrote:On November 09 2017 03:54 ShoCkeyy wrote:
That tax plan they released looks good for me, but with the current tax plan, I'm getting fucked in taxes. I'm positive this year alone, I've paid 40% easily in taxes some how... And then they wonder why the "middle class" disappeared... A) Fix your withholding (or stop counting payroll taxes) B) The "middle class" hasn't disappeared. What happened was the working poor got fucked by changing economic conditions. C) Nobody paying 40% in taxes (incidentally the top bracket is 39.6% and that's marginal rate, not average rate, so even if you're paid a billion dollars in W-2 income you still won't hit exactly 39.6%) is getting fucked, what is happening is they're getting paid a fortune and only keeping half a fortune D) Cutting taxes can't be looked at in isolation, otherwise cutting taxes would always be good. Cut taxes means cut services, or increased borrowing. Either way you need to weigh that in too. If you gain $1,000 in reduced taxes and lose $2,000 in essential services which you now have to pay out of pocket you did not receive a tax cut. So I did the math, and it's actually like 30% that I'm being taken out. Then they have the nerve to say I still owe taxes when I do my income tax. This year alone, I haven't broke six figures yet, but I'm very close to, and I feel like I've only been paid half of what I made this year. And that's with taxes, I can't imagine how much more they would steal from me if I didn't have a 401k. I also gotta check on my withholding for sure. They're not stealing from you. Taxation isn't theft. Grow the hell up. Nah it's not theft to you, yet I worked harder than the shitty politicians that get paid with it and still try to fuck me over. The boston tea party happened for a reason, why do corps get tax breaks, while the people get fucked. And when I don't know where all my taxes are going, who knows maybe a secret operative that will get a green beret killed, while being requested to pay more than what I should be paying, I can consider it theft. I don't think it's about "growing the hell up", it's about seeing how shitty your government is being to the people. I don't mind paying for universal healthcare, but I know it's going to universal healthcare, yet our government doesn't care, and choose to ignore. You gotta also understand, I came from nothing, and having nothing, even lived on a the streets for a time in my life. While there are many useful things for taxes, they're definitely not being put to good use.
Humour me for a minute. Imagine I were an alien who knew nothing about earth. Try to explain to me without reference to society as a whole why the correct amount of dollars you should receive for the work you do is 100,000, and not 50,000. What makes one amount "right" and any deduction from that amount "theft"?
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On November 10 2017 00:35 ShoCkeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 00:07 KwarK wrote:On November 10 2017 00:05 ShoCkeyy wrote:On November 09 2017 03:58 KwarK wrote:On November 09 2017 03:54 ShoCkeyy wrote:
That tax plan they released looks good for me, but with the current tax plan, I'm getting fucked in taxes. I'm positive this year alone, I've paid 40% easily in taxes some how... And then they wonder why the "middle class" disappeared... A) Fix your withholding (or stop counting payroll taxes) B) The "middle class" hasn't disappeared. What happened was the working poor got fucked by changing economic conditions. C) Nobody paying 40% in taxes (incidentally the top bracket is 39.6% and that's marginal rate, not average rate, so even if you're paid a billion dollars in W-2 income you still won't hit exactly 39.6%) is getting fucked, what is happening is they're getting paid a fortune and only keeping half a fortune D) Cutting taxes can't be looked at in isolation, otherwise cutting taxes would always be good. Cut taxes means cut services, or increased borrowing. Either way you need to weigh that in too. If you gain $1,000 in reduced taxes and lose $2,000 in essential services which you now have to pay out of pocket you did not receive a tax cut. So I did the math, and it's actually like 30% that I'm being taken out. Then they have the nerve to say I still owe taxes when I do my income tax. This year alone, I haven't broke six figures yet, but I'm very close to, and I feel like I've only been paid half of what I made this year. And that's with taxes, I can't imagine how much more they would steal from me if I didn't have a 401k. I also gotta check on my withholding for sure. They're not stealing from you. Taxation isn't theft. Grow the hell up. Nah it's not theft to you, yet I worked harder than the shitty politicians that get paid with it and still try to fuck me over. The boston tea party happened for a reason, why do corps get tax breaks, while the people get fucked. And when I don't know where all my taxes are going, who knows maybe a secret operative that will get a green beret killed, while being requested to pay more than what I should be paying, I can consider it theft. I don't think it's about "growing the hell up", it's about seeing how shitty your government is being to the people. I don't mind paying for universal healthcare, but I know it's going to universal healthcare, yet our government doesn't care, and choose to ignore. You gotta also understand, I came from nothing, and having nothing, even lived on a the streets for a time in my life. While there are many useful things for taxes, they're definitely not being put to good use.
Every time I hear people bring up government waste, I assume they have never worked for a large company. Have you? Increased size increases capability while also increasing inefficiency in some ways. Yet it also increases efficiency in many ways by enabling things like highways, a dominant military and space exploration. A small government is a weak government that will naturally fall or be subjugated by larger governments. You don't get to choose power but decline waste. In any and every practical application, eliminating waste from large entities isn't possible.
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On November 10 2017 00:40 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 00:35 ShoCkeyy wrote:On November 10 2017 00:07 KwarK wrote:On November 10 2017 00:05 ShoCkeyy wrote:On November 09 2017 03:58 KwarK wrote:On November 09 2017 03:54 ShoCkeyy wrote:
That tax plan they released looks good for me, but with the current tax plan, I'm getting fucked in taxes. I'm positive this year alone, I've paid 40% easily in taxes some how... And then they wonder why the "middle class" disappeared... A) Fix your withholding (or stop counting payroll taxes) B) The "middle class" hasn't disappeared. What happened was the working poor got fucked by changing economic conditions. C) Nobody paying 40% in taxes (incidentally the top bracket is 39.6% and that's marginal rate, not average rate, so even if you're paid a billion dollars in W-2 income you still won't hit exactly 39.6%) is getting fucked, what is happening is they're getting paid a fortune and only keeping half a fortune D) Cutting taxes can't be looked at in isolation, otherwise cutting taxes would always be good. Cut taxes means cut services, or increased borrowing. Either way you need to weigh that in too. If you gain $1,000 in reduced taxes and lose $2,000 in essential services which you now have to pay out of pocket you did not receive a tax cut. So I did the math, and it's actually like 30% that I'm being taken out. Then they have the nerve to say I still owe taxes when I do my income tax. This year alone, I haven't broke six figures yet, but I'm very close to, and I feel like I've only been paid half of what I made this year. And that's with taxes, I can't imagine how much more they would steal from me if I didn't have a 401k. I also gotta check on my withholding for sure. They're not stealing from you. Taxation isn't theft. Grow the hell up. Nah it's not theft to you, yet I worked harder than the shitty politicians that get paid with it and still try to fuck me over. The boston tea party happened for a reason, why do corps get tax breaks, while the people get fucked. And when I don't know where all my taxes are going, who knows maybe a secret operative that will get a green beret killed, while being requested to pay more than what I should be paying, I can consider it theft. I don't think it's about "growing the hell up", it's about seeing how shitty your government is being to the people. I don't mind paying for universal healthcare, but I know it's going to universal healthcare, yet our government doesn't care, and choose to ignore. You gotta also understand, I came from nothing, and having nothing, even lived on a the streets for a time in my life. While there are many useful things for taxes, they're definitely not being put to good use. Every time I hear people bring up government waste, I assume they have never worked for a large company. Have you? Increased size increases capability while also increasing inefficiency in some ways. Yet it also increases efficiency in many ways by enabling things like highways, a dominant military and space exploration. A small government is a weak government that will naturally fall or be subjugated by larger governments. You don't get to choose power but decline waste. In any and every practical application, eliminating waste from large entities isn't possible.
I don't think he's making a point about government waste - more just the fact the government is doing things with his taxes he doesn't agree with (tax breaks for corps, covert operations in foreign countries). The way to solve that isn't to complain about taxation though, but to work for a different government.
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spitballing numbers here, with 100k gross income the effective rate isn't that bad... you knock off almost 30k from gross is you're maxing 401k and taking standard deduction + personal exemption for 70k taxable, then the tax would be 5k + 0.25* ~40k = 12k or so.
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United States44286 Posts
Trad 401ks don't do anything to reduce tax, they just defer it. Your tax burden remains unchanged, the year in which you pay it changes.
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On November 10 2017 00:35 ShoCkeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 00:07 KwarK wrote:On November 10 2017 00:05 ShoCkeyy wrote:On November 09 2017 03:58 KwarK wrote:On November 09 2017 03:54 ShoCkeyy wrote:
That tax plan they released looks good for me, but with the current tax plan, I'm getting fucked in taxes. I'm positive this year alone, I've paid 40% easily in taxes some how... And then they wonder why the "middle class" disappeared... A) Fix your withholding (or stop counting payroll taxes) B) The "middle class" hasn't disappeared. What happened was the working poor got fucked by changing economic conditions. C) Nobody paying 40% in taxes (incidentally the top bracket is 39.6% and that's marginal rate, not average rate, so even if you're paid a billion dollars in W-2 income you still won't hit exactly 39.6%) is getting fucked, what is happening is they're getting paid a fortune and only keeping half a fortune D) Cutting taxes can't be looked at in isolation, otherwise cutting taxes would always be good. Cut taxes means cut services, or increased borrowing. Either way you need to weigh that in too. If you gain $1,000 in reduced taxes and lose $2,000 in essential services which you now have to pay out of pocket you did not receive a tax cut. So I did the math, and it's actually like 30% that I'm being taken out. Then they have the nerve to say I still owe taxes when I do my income tax. This year alone, I haven't broke six figures yet, but I'm very close to, and I feel like I've only been paid half of what I made this year. And that's with taxes, I can't imagine how much more they would steal from me if I didn't have a 401k. I also gotta check on my withholding for sure. They're not stealing from you. Taxation isn't theft. Grow the hell up. Nah it's not theft to you, yet I worked harder than the shitty politicians that get paid with it and still try to fuck me over. The boston tea party happened for a reason, why do corps get tax breaks, while the people get fucked. And when I don't know where all my taxes are going, who knows maybe a secret operative that will get a green beret killed, while being requested to pay more than what I should be paying, I can consider it theft. I don't think it's about "growing the hell up", it's about seeing how shitty your government is being to the people. I don't mind paying for universal healthcare, but I know it's going to universal healthcare, yet our government doesn't care, and choose to ignore. You gotta also understand, I came from nothing, and having nothing, even lived on a the streets for a time in my life. While there are many useful things for taxes, they're definitely not being put to good use. Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 00:24 Gorsameth wrote:On November 10 2017 00:05 ShoCkeyy wrote:On November 09 2017 03:58 KwarK wrote:On November 09 2017 03:54 ShoCkeyy wrote:
That tax plan they released looks good for me, but with the current tax plan, I'm getting fucked in taxes. I'm positive this year alone, I've paid 40% easily in taxes some how... And then they wonder why the "middle class" disappeared... A) Fix your withholding (or stop counting payroll taxes) B) The "middle class" hasn't disappeared. What happened was the working poor got fucked by changing economic conditions. C) Nobody paying 40% in taxes (incidentally the top bracket is 39.6% and that's marginal rate, not average rate, so even if you're paid a billion dollars in W-2 income you still won't hit exactly 39.6%) is getting fucked, what is happening is they're getting paid a fortune and only keeping half a fortune D) Cutting taxes can't be looked at in isolation, otherwise cutting taxes would always be good. Cut taxes means cut services, or increased borrowing. Either way you need to weigh that in too. If you gain $1,000 in reduced taxes and lose $2,000 in essential services which you now have to pay out of pocket you did not receive a tax cut. So I did the math, and it's actually like 30% that I'm being taken out. Then they have the nerve to say I still owe taxes when I do my income tax. This year alone, I haven't broke six figures yet, but I'm very close to, and I feel like I've only been paid half of what I made this year. And that's with taxes, I can't imagine how much more they would steal from me if I didn't have a 401k. I also gotta check on my withholding for sure. Oh boo hoo hoo. Do you drive on a road? Walk on a sidewalk? Can you call the police if your house is broken into? Does a fire department come when your kitchens catches fire? ect What do you think pays for all that? Oh right, taxes. Your care free life in a modern society is payed for by taxes. No one likes to pay taxes but where are we without them? No government, no one to enforce laws, no roads, no one to stop your butcher from selling you bad meat. Go look at global ranks for 'the best places to live", Funny how they tend to correlate to the amount of tax payed. it's almost as if there is a connection. This is ignorance at it's best. If you actually lived in the US you would see pot holes in all US roads, roads that have are being worked on from 20 years ago. You'll see sidewalks turned into green again because of not being maintained. I don't need to call the police, I live in a state that if my house were broken into, I can use my gun to shoot the asshole. There is bad cops and good cops, the scary part is that bad cops exist way more. And only a person using water to turn off a grease fire calls the fire department, but your ignorance still shows, I don't mind paying those taxes. I know it's going to that. And the difference between "best places to live" and the US is that everyone gets charged almost the same percent in taxes...
Politicians make shit money except for the bribes they get from people trying to avoid taxes
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On November 10 2017 00:42 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 00:40 Mohdoo wrote:On November 10 2017 00:35 ShoCkeyy wrote:On November 10 2017 00:07 KwarK wrote:On November 10 2017 00:05 ShoCkeyy wrote:On November 09 2017 03:58 KwarK wrote:On November 09 2017 03:54 ShoCkeyy wrote:
That tax plan they released looks good for me, but with the current tax plan, I'm getting fucked in taxes. I'm positive this year alone, I've paid 40% easily in taxes some how... And then they wonder why the "middle class" disappeared... A) Fix your withholding (or stop counting payroll taxes) B) The "middle class" hasn't disappeared. What happened was the working poor got fucked by changing economic conditions. C) Nobody paying 40% in taxes (incidentally the top bracket is 39.6% and that's marginal rate, not average rate, so even if you're paid a billion dollars in W-2 income you still won't hit exactly 39.6%) is getting fucked, what is happening is they're getting paid a fortune and only keeping half a fortune D) Cutting taxes can't be looked at in isolation, otherwise cutting taxes would always be good. Cut taxes means cut services, or increased borrowing. Either way you need to weigh that in too. If you gain $1,000 in reduced taxes and lose $2,000 in essential services which you now have to pay out of pocket you did not receive a tax cut. So I did the math, and it's actually like 30% that I'm being taken out. Then they have the nerve to say I still owe taxes when I do my income tax. This year alone, I haven't broke six figures yet, but I'm very close to, and I feel like I've only been paid half of what I made this year. And that's with taxes, I can't imagine how much more they would steal from me if I didn't have a 401k. I also gotta check on my withholding for sure. They're not stealing from you. Taxation isn't theft. Grow the hell up. Nah it's not theft to you, yet I worked harder than the shitty politicians that get paid with it and still try to fuck me over. The boston tea party happened for a reason, why do corps get tax breaks, while the people get fucked. And when I don't know where all my taxes are going, who knows maybe a secret operative that will get a green beret killed, while being requested to pay more than what I should be paying, I can consider it theft. I don't think it's about "growing the hell up", it's about seeing how shitty your government is being to the people. I don't mind paying for universal healthcare, but I know it's going to universal healthcare, yet our government doesn't care, and choose to ignore. You gotta also understand, I came from nothing, and having nothing, even lived on a the streets for a time in my life. While there are many useful things for taxes, they're definitely not being put to good use. Every time I hear people bring up government waste, I assume they have never worked for a large company. Have you? Increased size increases capability while also increasing inefficiency in some ways. Yet it also increases efficiency in many ways by enabling things like highways, a dominant military and space exploration. A small government is a weak government that will naturally fall or be subjugated by larger governments. You don't get to choose power but decline waste. In any and every practical application, eliminating waste from large entities isn't possible. I don't think he's making a point about government waste - more just the fact the government is doing things with his taxes he doesn't agree with (tax breaks for corps, covert operations in foreign countries). The way to solve that isn't to complain about taxation though, but to work for a different government.
Good point, but perceived misprioritization is also a fundamental part of large democracies. A lot of policy decisions come down to "yes" or "no". It is very unlikely that, when sharing a country with millions of other people, you'll be on the right side of democracy every time.
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On November 10 2017 00:40 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 00:35 ShoCkeyy wrote:On November 10 2017 00:07 KwarK wrote:On November 10 2017 00:05 ShoCkeyy wrote:On November 09 2017 03:58 KwarK wrote:On November 09 2017 03:54 ShoCkeyy wrote:
That tax plan they released looks good for me, but with the current tax plan, I'm getting fucked in taxes. I'm positive this year alone, I've paid 40% easily in taxes some how... And then they wonder why the "middle class" disappeared... A) Fix your withholding (or stop counting payroll taxes) B) The "middle class" hasn't disappeared. What happened was the working poor got fucked by changing economic conditions. C) Nobody paying 40% in taxes (incidentally the top bracket is 39.6% and that's marginal rate, not average rate, so even if you're paid a billion dollars in W-2 income you still won't hit exactly 39.6%) is getting fucked, what is happening is they're getting paid a fortune and only keeping half a fortune D) Cutting taxes can't be looked at in isolation, otherwise cutting taxes would always be good. Cut taxes means cut services, or increased borrowing. Either way you need to weigh that in too. If you gain $1,000 in reduced taxes and lose $2,000 in essential services which you now have to pay out of pocket you did not receive a tax cut. So I did the math, and it's actually like 30% that I'm being taken out. Then they have the nerve to say I still owe taxes when I do my income tax. This year alone, I haven't broke six figures yet, but I'm very close to, and I feel like I've only been paid half of what I made this year. And that's with taxes, I can't imagine how much more they would steal from me if I didn't have a 401k. I also gotta check on my withholding for sure. They're not stealing from you. Taxation isn't theft. Grow the hell up. Nah it's not theft to you, yet I worked harder than the shitty politicians that get paid with it and still try to fuck me over. The boston tea party happened for a reason, why do corps get tax breaks, while the people get fucked. And when I don't know where all my taxes are going, who knows maybe a secret operative that will get a green beret killed, while being requested to pay more than what I should be paying, I can consider it theft. I don't think it's about "growing the hell up", it's about seeing how shitty your government is being to the people. I don't mind paying for universal healthcare, but I know it's going to universal healthcare, yet our government doesn't care, and choose to ignore. You gotta also understand, I came from nothing, and having nothing, even lived on a the streets for a time in my life. While there are many useful things for taxes, they're definitely not being put to good use. Humour me for a minute. Imagine I were an alien who knew nothing about earth. Try to explain to me without reference to society as a whole why the correct amount of dollars you should receive for the work you do is 100,000, and not 50,000. What makes one amount "right" and any deduction from that amount "theft"?
Theft is when the money shouldn't be spent. It doesn't matter what the right amount is, the difference is that in these "best places to live" everyone makes a fair standing living wage, while being charged almost the same in taxes. In the US, I have to pay more taxes because the rich people choose to not pay.
I don't mind paying taxes to help the poor, I do mind when I'm paying taxes to help the rich.
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On November 10 2017 00:46 KwarK wrote:
Trad 401ks don't do anything to reduce tax, they just defer it. Your tax burden remains unchanged, the year in which you pay it changes.
i know, same goes for IRA (i do IRA instead of roth, but i assume most do roth).
but what you're paying in tax for the given year at 6 figs aint all that high.
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United States44286 Posts
On November 10 2017 00:46 ShoCkeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 00:40 KwarK wrote:On November 10 2017 00:35 ShoCkeyy wrote:On November 10 2017 00:07 KwarK wrote:On November 10 2017 00:05 ShoCkeyy wrote:On November 09 2017 03:58 KwarK wrote:On November 09 2017 03:54 ShoCkeyy wrote:
That tax plan they released looks good for me, but with the current tax plan, I'm getting fucked in taxes. I'm positive this year alone, I've paid 40% easily in taxes some how... And then they wonder why the "middle class" disappeared... A) Fix your withholding (or stop counting payroll taxes) B) The "middle class" hasn't disappeared. What happened was the working poor got fucked by changing economic conditions. C) Nobody paying 40% in taxes (incidentally the top bracket is 39.6% and that's marginal rate, not average rate, so even if you're paid a billion dollars in W-2 income you still won't hit exactly 39.6%) is getting fucked, what is happening is they're getting paid a fortune and only keeping half a fortune D) Cutting taxes can't be looked at in isolation, otherwise cutting taxes would always be good. Cut taxes means cut services, or increased borrowing. Either way you need to weigh that in too. If you gain $1,000 in reduced taxes and lose $2,000 in essential services which you now have to pay out of pocket you did not receive a tax cut. So I did the math, and it's actually like 30% that I'm being taken out. Then they have the nerve to say I still owe taxes when I do my income tax. This year alone, I haven't broke six figures yet, but I'm very close to, and I feel like I've only been paid half of what I made this year. And that's with taxes, I can't imagine how much more they would steal from me if I didn't have a 401k. I also gotta check on my withholding for sure. They're not stealing from you. Taxation isn't theft. Grow the hell up. Nah it's not theft to you, yet I worked harder than the shitty politicians that get paid with it and still try to fuck me over. The boston tea party happened for a reason, why do corps get tax breaks, while the people get fucked. And when I don't know where all my taxes are going, who knows maybe a secret operative that will get a green beret killed, while being requested to pay more than what I should be paying, I can consider it theft. I don't think it's about "growing the hell up", it's about seeing how shitty your government is being to the people. I don't mind paying for universal healthcare, but I know it's going to universal healthcare, yet our government doesn't care, and choose to ignore. You gotta also understand, I came from nothing, and having nothing, even lived on a the streets for a time in my life. While there are many useful things for taxes, they're definitely not being put to good use. Humour me for a minute. Imagine I were an alien who knew nothing about earth. Try to explain to me without reference to society as a whole why the correct amount of dollars you should receive for the work you do is 100,000, and not 50,000. What makes one amount "right" and any deduction from that amount "theft"? Theft is when the money shouldn't be spent. It doesn't matter what the right amount is, the difference is that in these "best places to live" everyone makes a fair standing living wage, while being charged almost the same in taxes. In the US, I have to pay more taxes because the rich people choose to not pay. I don't mind paying taxes to help the poor, I do mind when I'm paying taxes to help the rich.
You didn't really address my point.
Let's say I'm an alien and you're complaining to me about how you want 100,000 of a concept you call a dollar but you're only getting 60,000. How do you make me understand that 100,000 of this concept is the right amount for what you've done? How do you make me understand that you only receiving 60,000 is theft?
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On November 10 2017 00:46 ShoCkeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 00:40 KwarK wrote:On November 10 2017 00:35 ShoCkeyy wrote:On November 10 2017 00:07 KwarK wrote:On November 10 2017 00:05 ShoCkeyy wrote:On November 09 2017 03:58 KwarK wrote:On November 09 2017 03:54 ShoCkeyy wrote:
That tax plan they released looks good for me, but with the current tax plan, I'm getting fucked in taxes. I'm positive this year alone, I've paid 40% easily in taxes some how... And then they wonder why the "middle class" disappeared... A) Fix your withholding (or stop counting payroll taxes) B) The "middle class" hasn't disappeared. What happened was the working poor got fucked by changing economic conditions. C) Nobody paying 40% in taxes (incidentally the top bracket is 39.6% and that's marginal rate, not average rate, so even if you're paid a billion dollars in W-2 income you still won't hit exactly 39.6%) is getting fucked, what is happening is they're getting paid a fortune and only keeping half a fortune D) Cutting taxes can't be looked at in isolation, otherwise cutting taxes would always be good. Cut taxes means cut services, or increased borrowing. Either way you need to weigh that in too. If you gain $1,000 in reduced taxes and lose $2,000 in essential services which you now have to pay out of pocket you did not receive a tax cut. So I did the math, and it's actually like 30% that I'm being taken out. Then they have the nerve to say I still owe taxes when I do my income tax. This year alone, I haven't broke six figures yet, but I'm very close to, and I feel like I've only been paid half of what I made this year. And that's with taxes, I can't imagine how much more they would steal from me if I didn't have a 401k. I also gotta check on my withholding for sure. They're not stealing from you. Taxation isn't theft. Grow the hell up. Nah it's not theft to you, yet I worked harder than the shitty politicians that get paid with it and still try to fuck me over. The boston tea party happened for a reason, why do corps get tax breaks, while the people get fucked. And when I don't know where all my taxes are going, who knows maybe a secret operative that will get a green beret killed, while being requested to pay more than what I should be paying, I can consider it theft. I don't think it's about "growing the hell up", it's about seeing how shitty your government is being to the people. I don't mind paying for universal healthcare, but I know it's going to universal healthcare, yet our government doesn't care, and choose to ignore. You gotta also understand, I came from nothing, and having nothing, even lived on a the streets for a time in my life. While there are many useful things for taxes, they're definitely not being put to good use. Humour me for a minute. Imagine I were an alien who knew nothing about earth. Try to explain to me without reference to society as a whole why the correct amount of dollars you should receive for the work you do is 100,000, and not 50,000. What makes one amount "right" and any deduction from that amount "theft"? Theft is when the money shouldn't be spent. It doesn't matter what the right amount is, the difference is that in these "best places to live" everyone makes a fair standing living wage, while being charged almost the same in taxes. In the US, I have to pay more taxes because the rich people choose to not pay. I don't mind paying taxes to help the poor, I do mind when I'm paying taxes to help the rich.
Almost the same taxes? I'm sorry but are you of the belief that taxes are high in the US?
A lot of US people seem to think that, no Your taxes are not high in the US. Your complaining about 30% without breaking 6 figures? gz over here your looking at 40%. Break 6 figures? your at 50% minimum.
The US does not have a high taxrate compared to the rest of the western world.
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Norway28892 Posts
I was curious so I looked up differences in how taxes are spent for the US and Norway
![[image loading]](https://www.cbpp.org/sites/default/files/atoms/files/10-4-17bud-f1.png)
![[image loading]](http://e24.vgc.no/drpublish/images/article/2013/06/26/20883859/1/default/732400.png)
To translate the Norwegian number, that big, 40% number is social security. But we also spend 12.5% on education, and 16.8% on healthcare. Defense gets 3.21%. Environmental protection 1.6%, 2.9% on various cultural programs. 'Alminnelig offentlig tjenesteyting' I understand as a fancy phrase for 'bureaucracy' gets 9% (money well spent - norwegian bureaucracy is in my experience exceptionally functional), 'næringsøkonomiske formål' at 9.8% includes infrastructure spending, transportation etc.
Some of these are in pretty stark contrast with the american numbers - especially education and defense. And tbh, if those numbers were swapped in Norway, I could see myself be less positive towards taxation - I'm super happy to pay for public education, which I see as pretty integral from a 'create a more equitable playing field' perspective, I'd be considerably less happy spending taxes on invasions of foreign lands.
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EPT
