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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
October 20 2017 13:07 GMT
#180661
Mississippi GOP Sen. Thad Cochran insists that he is not retiring from Congress, despite widespread speculation about the veteran lawmaker’s health and political future.

The 79-year-old Cochran appeared frail and at times disoriented during a brief hallway interview on Wednesday. He was unable to answer whether he would remain chairman of the Appropriations Committee, and at one point, needed a staffer to remind him where the Senate chamber is located.

“Don’t believe everything you hear,” Cochran said in a low voice when asked whether he plans to retire after 44 years in office.

However, when queried about whether he would stay on as Appropriations chairman, Cochran seemed confused and just repeated the question. “As chairman of the Appropriations Committee?” Cochran asked.

Cochran had to be guided by staffers around a security checkpoint inside the Capitol. He started to walk into a first-floor room — though the Senate chamber is on the second floor. He was then ushered by an aide up to the Senate.

When another reporter asked whether leadership had pressured Cochran to return for a vote on the budget resolution — a key moment in the tax reform debate — Cochran smiled and responded, “It’s a beautiful day outside.”

Cochran sat quietly in his seat during Wednesday's lengthy vote session. He smiled and responded when a fellow senator stopped by to offer greetings, but generally did not speak to anyone else.

On one amendment, Cochran voted “yes” despite being told by an aide to vote “no.” The staffer tried to get the senator to switch his vote, but Cochran kept flashing the “thumbs up” sign, even walking over to the clerk tallying the vote and doing so. GOP floor staffers repeatedly told him the leadership wanted a "no" vote. Several more moments passed before Cochran realized he was voting the wrong way and then changed his vote.

Cochran, who turns 80 in December, has faced questions about his health for the past several years. Cochran has been treated recently for urological problems, though his aides and political allies insisted he was fine. President Donald Trump last month spotlighted Cochran's health when he claimed that Obamacare repeal legislation would have passed had Cochran not been hospitalized. Cochran, though, wasn't in the hospital at that point.

Top Senate Republicans say they are not pressuring Cochran to retire or step down as Appropriations Committee chairman, a powerful perch from which he helps oversee hundreds of billions of dollars in government spending each year. Cochran made a career of steering federal dollars back home, working with former Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott (R-Miss.) for years to ensure their state benefited from hundreds of “earmarks” inserted in annual appropriations bills.

The use of earmarks, which were banned in 2010 after the tea party movement helped Republicans regain control of Congress, helped make Cochran popular back home. He never faced a serious challenge from 1984 until 2014. But that year, conservative outside groups attacked him during the GOP primary and Cochran barely survived a runoff. He went on, however, to easily win the general election.

Cochran’s seat is viewed as particularly important, given that the GOP establishment went all out to help him beat state Sen. Chris McDaniel in the 2014 primary.

Cochran is up for reelection in 2020, and Republicans are desperate for him to stay in office and avoid a special election. McDaniel already is planning a campaign against incumbent Sen. Roger Wicker (R-Miss.) in 2018.

Cochran was first elected to Congress in 1972, making him one of the longest serving GOP lawmakers in history. His election to the Senate in Mississippi in 1978 was a watershed moment for Republicans. Cochran was the first Republican to win a statewide election in Mississippi since Reconstruction.

Now, the state is overwhelmingly red, with the GOP controlling the governorship, Legislature and congressional delegation. President Donald Trump easily carried the state in the 2016 presidential election.

The Senate has had other once-vibrant members who faced questions about whether they still had the capacity to serve as they aged. The late Sen. Strom Thurmond (R-S.C.) served until the age of 100, but was forced to give up the chairmanship of Armed Services. Another legendary lawmaker, the late Sen. Robert Byrd (D-W.Va.) was eventually replaced as chairman of the Appropriations Committee.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42867 Posts
October 20 2017 13:08 GMT
#180662
On October 20 2017 12:02 GoTuNk! wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2017 11:52 Tachion wrote:
On October 20 2017 11:09 GoTuNk! wrote:
On October 20 2017 10:39 Aquanim wrote:
On October 20 2017 10:33 GoTuNk! wrote:
On October 20 2017 10:01 KwarK wrote:
On October 20 2017 08:26 Danglars wrote:
On October 20 2017 08:21 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:

Obligatory: Her name is Kathleen Hartnett White, you sexist troglodytes.

[image loading]
Fossil fuel energy is the lifeblood of the modern world. Before the Industrial Revolution, humanity depended on burning wood and candle wax. But with the ability to harness the energy in oil and other fossil fuels, quality of life and capacity for progress increased exponentially. Thanks to incredible innovations in the energy industry, fossil fuels are as promising, safe, and clean an energy resource as has ever existed in history. Yet, highly politicized climate policies are pushing a grand-scale shift to unreliable, impractical, incredibly expensive, and far less efficient energy sources. Today, "fossil fuel" has become such a dirty word that even fossil fuel companies feel compelled to apologize for their products. In Fueling Freedom, energy experts Stephen Moore and Kathleen Hartnett White make an unapologetic case for fossil fuels, turning around progressives' protestations to prove that if fossil fuel energy is supplanted by "green" alternatives for political reasons, humanity will take a giant step backwards and the planet will be less safe, less clean, and less free.


Excellent job Trump. Let's see if you can follow through on the likely policy suggestions.

You're not stupid enough to not see the obvious fallacies in that argument, are you? The debate isn't between the people who like the vast amounts of free chemical energy coming out of the ground and the environmentalists who hate civilization, it's between the scientists who are saying "we checked and although fossil fuels are great we have to stop using them because it's fucking up the planet" and idiots.


Questioning about wether we should let tons of people starve to death in the third world, have access to electricity, and generally have shorter lives, in the off chance we can stop the temperature of the world from rising a few degrees, but will most likely not anyway (and the world will not explode a few celcius warmer over a 100 year span). Those idiots.

A lot of people living in third world countries will starve to death if they become less able to farm because of climate change as well. A lot of people living in third world countries will starve to death no matter what.

Can you provide evidence which indicates that in the long run more people will starve, die of curable diseases, etc. if climate change is addressed than if it is not?

At what point would you consider that maybe global warming (yes they changed the name) was not what they said it was? You know, like the Al-Gore movie which predicted everything wrong.
Like, if in 10 or 20 years, if the world was essentially the same, like 20 years ago when the world was supposed to explode, would you even question that maybe the "consensus" was not accurate?

What exactly is the prediction that was made 20 years ago that you are claiming was profoundly wrong? I am pretty sure nobody predicted the literal explosion of the world. Again, it's pretty difficult to discuss this without specifics.


To start, I thank you for wanting to argue in good faith.

I've esentially seen 2 scenarios:

a) The world is warming up at an atonishing rate, and we need to halve carbon emissions to avoid a huge part of the world's coast from flooding due to rising temperature and correspondant sea level.

b) The world's temperature is rising a few degrees in the next 100 years, with very little influence of human nature.

For a), cutting emisssions in the current way is worthless. Literally worthless and costs and unimaginable amount of money. Might as well have more resources to deal with problems later. Or, we could cut emissions to 50%, which is essentially going back to the stone age, and destroying the lives of millions people (billions?).
Should we do that? are we sure ? Is it worth it?

I see no benefit in cutting emissions trough government mandates on dubious ways as it works now, for either scenario.

A lot of people living in third world countries will starve to death if they become less able to farm because of climate change as well. A lot of people living in third world countries will starve to death no matter what.


Crops yield increase with higher carbon content on the air, it's plant's "oxigen". Cheap electricity (no restrictions) increases access to required supply, machinery and water transportation also allow for better farming.

What exactly is the prediction that was made 20 years ago that you are claiming was profoundly wrong? I am pretty sure nobody predicted the literal explosion of the world. Again, it's pretty difficult to discuss this without specifics.


In January, 2006 — when promoting his Oscar-winning (yes, Oscar-winning) documentary, An Inconvenient Truth — Gore declared that unless we took “drastic measures” to reduce greenhouse gasses, the world would reach a “point of no return” in a mere ten years. He called it a “true planetary emergency.” Well, the ten years passed today, we’re still here, and the climate activists have postponed the apocalypse. Again.

Gasoline was supposed to be $9 per gallon. Milk would cost almost $13 per gallon. Wildfires would rage, hurricanes would strike with ever-greater intensity.

In reality, I respect the wild-eyed rapture-pastors far more than the climate hysterics. They merely ask me to believe, they don’t use the power of government to dictate how I live. Pastors aren’t circumventing the democratic process to impose dangerous and job-killing environmental regulations. Draconian fuel-economy standards have actually cost American lives. And now the coal industry is reeling in part because of stringent EPA standards. Overall, the EPA’s climate-change regulations are set to impose enormous economic costs.



As someone who owns farmland in southern California, the drought in recent years has been pretty scary. In fact, there is still a moderate drought in my specific region. We've had to look for more groundwater, drill more wells, and consider replacing our current crops due to a decrease in groundwater quality. All of this comes at a cost. It has not been fun. The state came out from the drought ok with little if any loss, but it required a lot of pumping of groundwater at a scale that is totally unsustainable.
If climate change ends up causing more frequent and more severe droughts as predicted, my agricultural community, and perhaps the state itself is in for some rough times. This should worry you given that California is the agricultural powerhouse of the US. (nevermind you're from Chile apparently ;o)


I obviously wish you the best, but this is simply anecdotal evidence. A greenland farmer could present an opposite experience. The world average crop yields could be rising (or lowering) while specific places have worse (or better) results.

Maybe you could research into drought statistics for your area, but I doubt you'll find enough data that allows you to claim that man made climate is making droughts more severe/frequent in California.

I mean this ultimately comes down to a very simple issue. The scientific method is our best current system for finding facts. All the scientists say this is a fact. They're not happy that it's a fact, but it's a fact either way.

Even the Pentagon recognizes climate change as the number 1 global security threat.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Slydie
Profile Joined August 2013
1923 Posts
October 20 2017 13:08 GMT
#180663
On October 20 2017 19:04 Liquid`Drone wrote:
When people speak of 'point of no return' with regard to climate change, it does not mean 'we are fucked from that date', it means 'it'll be too late to revert emissions to hinder stuff like permafrost thawing which might release trapped greenhouse gasses'.

Basically the point of no return is a 'this ensures that global warming will happen on a 'bad' scale 50-100 years from now', not a 'it's gonna go to hell right now'. And there seems to be a consensus that this has already happened. Climate change will have disastrous effects. That's inevitable regardless of what we do now. The question is how disastrous - it's not a binary 'we're fucked' or 'we're fine', it's about moving us closer to the 'we're fine' point of that scale.

I also think arguments such as 'it'll be more costly to hinder climate change than to deal with the effects of climate change' could be totally fine. It's just that this argument is almost exclusively presented by people who also don't acknowledge the scientific consensus, and who also seem entirely opposed to the idea of dealing with the effects of climate change. (For example, there's a strong correlation between 'opposed to immigration' and 'thinks climate change isn't a real problem', but to me, one of the biggest problems with climate change is that even moderate projections will forcibly relocate a 9 digit number of people. The recent refugee crisis was completely insignificant compared to what might happen if any degree of; bangladesh floods, himalayas run out of water, middle east becomes too hot for humans to live, north africa runs out of water, happen. Nobody you should take seriously claims that all of these will definitely happen for sure, but it seems overwhelmingly likely that some of these to some degree happen, and there are so many people living in those regions that even if changes happen that make 10% of the population of those regions have to relocate because those regions can no longer support that many people, then we're looking at a couple hundred million people.. If you wanna be like, 'yeah, but we need the energy to thrive, us western countries just need to accept a couple hundred million more immigrants then', that'd actually be kinda fine with me. It's just, I've never actually seen someone hold that position.


I am all for immigration, but very sceptical about the climate hysteria, for some reasons:

-We are talking about projections with a high degree of uncertainty of an extremely complicated system.
-Our scope of climate is extremely small. Right now, the climate is historically GREAT, fairly warm and stable. What should be looked for ib 10s of millions of years, not 100s. At some point, we will face something truely dramatic, like an ice age or an ash cloud from a supervolcano, but I do not think this global warming is comparable to that.
-Humans deal very well with climate change, emigrating and changing lifestyle. We always have, and will always have to deal with them, as or planet is not a stable place.
Buff the siegetank
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States5629 Posts
October 20 2017 13:17 GMT
#180664
Whatever your position on climate change may be, obviously supposing it's happening then calling up the movers and emigrating is not a way to deal with it.
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
October 20 2017 13:30 GMT
#180665
On October 20 2017 22:08 Slydie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2017 19:04 Liquid`Drone wrote:
When people speak of 'point of no return' with regard to climate change, it does not mean 'we are fucked from that date', it means 'it'll be too late to revert emissions to hinder stuff like permafrost thawing which might release trapped greenhouse gasses'.

Basically the point of no return is a 'this ensures that global warming will happen on a 'bad' scale 50-100 years from now', not a 'it's gonna go to hell right now'. And there seems to be a consensus that this has already happened. Climate change will have disastrous effects. That's inevitable regardless of what we do now. The question is how disastrous - it's not a binary 'we're fucked' or 'we're fine', it's about moving us closer to the 'we're fine' point of that scale.

I also think arguments such as 'it'll be more costly to hinder climate change than to deal with the effects of climate change' could be totally fine. It's just that this argument is almost exclusively presented by people who also don't acknowledge the scientific consensus, and who also seem entirely opposed to the idea of dealing with the effects of climate change. (For example, there's a strong correlation between 'opposed to immigration' and 'thinks climate change isn't a real problem', but to me, one of the biggest problems with climate change is that even moderate projections will forcibly relocate a 9 digit number of people. The recent refugee crisis was completely insignificant compared to what might happen if any degree of; bangladesh floods, himalayas run out of water, middle east becomes too hot for humans to live, north africa runs out of water, happen. Nobody you should take seriously claims that all of these will definitely happen for sure, but it seems overwhelmingly likely that some of these to some degree happen, and there are so many people living in those regions that even if changes happen that make 10% of the population of those regions have to relocate because those regions can no longer support that many people, then we're looking at a couple hundred million people.. If you wanna be like, 'yeah, but we need the energy to thrive, us western countries just need to accept a couple hundred million more immigrants then', that'd actually be kinda fine with me. It's just, I've never actually seen someone hold that position.


I am all for immigration, but very sceptical about the climate hysteria, for some reasons:

-We are talking about projections with a high degree of uncertainty of an extremely complicated system.
-Our scope of climate is extremely small. Right now, the climate is historically GREAT, fairly warm and stable. What should be looked for ib 10s of millions of years, not 100s. At some point, we will face something truely dramatic, like an ice age or an ash cloud from a supervolcano, but I do not think this global warming is comparable to that.
-Humans deal very well with climate change, emigrating and changing lifestyle. We always have, and will always have to deal with them, as or planet is not a stable place.

skepticism is understandable, there are certainly some who are hysterical about it,
but how serious do you believe the problem actually is?
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
convention
Profile Joined October 2011
United States622 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-20 13:48:20
October 20 2017 13:36 GMT
#180666
On October 20 2017 22:08 Slydie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2017 19:04 Liquid`Drone wrote:
When people speak of 'point of no return' with regard to climate change, it does not mean 'we are fucked from that date', it means 'it'll be too late to revert emissions to hinder stuff like permafrost thawing which might release trapped greenhouse gasses'.

Basically the point of no return is a 'this ensures that global warming will happen on a 'bad' scale 50-100 years from now', not a 'it's gonna go to hell right now'. And there seems to be a consensus that this has already happened. Climate change will have disastrous effects. That's inevitable regardless of what we do now. The question is how disastrous - it's not a binary 'we're fucked' or 'we're fine', it's about moving us closer to the 'we're fine' point of that scale.

I also think arguments such as 'it'll be more costly to hinder climate change than to deal with the effects of climate change' could be totally fine. It's just that this argument is almost exclusively presented by people who also don't acknowledge the scientific consensus, and who also seem entirely opposed to the idea of dealing with the effects of climate change. (For example, there's a strong correlation between 'opposed to immigration' and 'thinks climate change isn't a real problem', but to me, one of the biggest problems with climate change is that even moderate projections will forcibly relocate a 9 digit number of people. The recent refugee crisis was completely insignificant compared to what might happen if any degree of; bangladesh floods, himalayas run out of water, middle east becomes too hot for humans to live, north africa runs out of water, happen. Nobody you should take seriously claims that all of these will definitely happen for sure, but it seems overwhelmingly likely that some of these to some degree happen, and there are so many people living in those regions that even if changes happen that make 10% of the population of those regions have to relocate because those regions can no longer support that many people, then we're looking at a couple hundred million people.. If you wanna be like, 'yeah, but we need the energy to thrive, us western countries just need to accept a couple hundred million more immigrants then', that'd actually be kinda fine with me. It's just, I've never actually seen someone hold that position.


I am all for immigration, but very sceptical about the climate hysteria, for some reasons:

-We are talking about projections with a high degree of uncertainty of an extremely complicated system.
-Our scope of climate is extremely small. Right now, the climate is historically GREAT, fairly warm and stable. What should be looked for ib 10s of millions of years, not 100s. At some point, we will face something truely dramatic, like an ice age or an ash cloud from a supervolcano, but I do not think this global warming is comparable to that.
-Humans deal very well with climate change, emigrating and changing lifestyle. We always have, and will always have to deal with them, as or planet is not a stable place.

The climate is absolutely not great. Here is a nice graphic based on pretty easy to make measurements (taken from peer-reviewed scientific papers): https://xkcd.com/1732/. These measurements are very high confidence. And it's pretty easy to see where we are headed with the most naive possible model. Projecting on a long time scale is challenging, but the entire scientific community agrees on quite a few predictions that don't need complex models.

For example, if the temperature rise hits 2 degrees Celsius above where the natural temperature point should be, then the frozen tundra will thaw, releasing trapped methane. At that point, if humans stop all emission, global temperatures will continue to rise.

And I don't think you even come close to grasping how bad that is. The stability of the planet relies on very specific set of conditions. Maybe you don't remember the polar vortex from a few years ago, or maybe you didn't live in the northern half of the US, but the confinement of the polar vortex relies on cool ocean water. Even a minor temperature rise will destabilize that, leading to very cold winters for some areas (temperatures down to -100F). And weakened jet steams still cause reduction in rain on land since the humid ocean air will not reach land.

Sure, you can say that we don't know everything that will happen. But we know a lot of things that will happen. They are all really really bad, making a significant amount of the planet not hospitable. And we can stop this for the minor cost of using already existing technology, that isn't even that much more expensive than the alternative dirty sources. Not sure how it's debatable to keep using the dirty sources.
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11542 Posts
October 20 2017 13:37 GMT
#180667
On October 20 2017 22:08 Slydie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2017 19:04 Liquid`Drone wrote:
When people speak of 'point of no return' with regard to climate change, it does not mean 'we are fucked from that date', it means 'it'll be too late to revert emissions to hinder stuff like permafrost thawing which might release trapped greenhouse gasses'.

Basically the point of no return is a 'this ensures that global warming will happen on a 'bad' scale 50-100 years from now', not a 'it's gonna go to hell right now'. And there seems to be a consensus that this has already happened. Climate change will have disastrous effects. That's inevitable regardless of what we do now. The question is how disastrous - it's not a binary 'we're fucked' or 'we're fine', it's about moving us closer to the 'we're fine' point of that scale.

I also think arguments such as 'it'll be more costly to hinder climate change than to deal with the effects of climate change' could be totally fine. It's just that this argument is almost exclusively presented by people who also don't acknowledge the scientific consensus, and who also seem entirely opposed to the idea of dealing with the effects of climate change. (For example, there's a strong correlation between 'opposed to immigration' and 'thinks climate change isn't a real problem', but to me, one of the biggest problems with climate change is that even moderate projections will forcibly relocate a 9 digit number of people. The recent refugee crisis was completely insignificant compared to what might happen if any degree of; bangladesh floods, himalayas run out of water, middle east becomes too hot for humans to live, north africa runs out of water, happen. Nobody you should take seriously claims that all of these will definitely happen for sure, but it seems overwhelmingly likely that some of these to some degree happen, and there are so many people living in those regions that even if changes happen that make 10% of the population of those regions have to relocate because those regions can no longer support that many people, then we're looking at a couple hundred million people.. If you wanna be like, 'yeah, but we need the energy to thrive, us western countries just need to accept a couple hundred million more immigrants then', that'd actually be kinda fine with me. It's just, I've never actually seen someone hold that position.


I am all for immigration, but very sceptical about the climate hysteria, for some reasons:

-We are talking about projections with a high degree of uncertainty of an extremely complicated system.
-Our scope of climate is extremely small. Right now, the climate is historically GREAT, fairly warm and stable. What should be looked for ib 10s of millions of years, not 100s. At some point, we will face something truely dramatic, like an ice age or an ash cloud from a supervolcano, but I do not think this global warming is comparable to that.
-Humans deal very well with climate change, emigrating and changing lifestyle. We always have, and will always have to deal with them, as or planet is not a stable place.


In the past, climate happened on timelines of tens thousands of years. That is natural climate change. Currently, global temperatures are rising on timelines of tens to hundreds of years. That is manmade climate change.

Humans are ok at dealing with climate change. No one thinks that this will lead to the extermination of humanity. Humanity will survive it. But that isn't really the baseline you should be looking at. Humanity can survive a lot of things. We should be looking at hardships put onto humans.

Maybe even take an economic outlook. We are currently taking a massive climate loan, which we will have to pay back eventually. We can keep on taking more loans for some time, but eventually we will have to deal with the fallout of all of this. It seems reasonable to make plans to both deal with the costs once they come up, and to reduce the total amount of those costs that eventually will come up. There are good reasons to take those loans. Like scientific advances, or having an agriculture that can feed the people. There are also bad reasons to take those climate loans. Like wanting to drive a giant big truck so everyone can see that you are a manly man.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
October 20 2017 13:38 GMT
#180668
On October 20 2017 22:06 farvacola wrote:
Something tells me that the DoD thinks what happened in Niger figures as a "real" Benghazi and they're getting out in front of it before the White House can play counterfactuals.

Getting the FBI involved is a good way to do that. They have no love for the White House right now.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
thePunGun
Profile Blog Joined January 2016
598 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-20 13:45:04
October 20 2017 13:43 GMT
#180669
Climate change is already happening and it will get worse that's a fact! There is enough evidence out there, just google it.
Skepticism is just a lazy excuse for those, who'd rather shut their eyes and ears than actually be lookin at all the information out there and come to the obvious conclusion.
On the bright side, we won't destroy the planet, but humanity's future. So I guess there's a silver lining to everything.
"You cannot teach a man anything, you can only help him find it within himself."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-20 13:45:51
October 20 2017 13:45 GMT
#180670
In some good news...

The only thing certain in this life are death, taxes and the US department of energy’s massive underestimate of renewable energy capacity.

Every two years, the US Energy Information Administration (EIA), America’s official source for energy statistics, issues 10-year projections about how much solar, wind and conventional energy the future holds for the US. Every two years, since the mid-1990s, the EIA’s projections turn out to be wrong. Last year, they proved spectacularly wrong.

The Natural Resources Defense Council, an environmental advocacy group, and Statista recently teamed up to analyze the EIA’s predictions for energy usage and production. They found that the EIA’s 10-year estimates between 2006 to 2016 systematically understated the share of wind, solar and gas. Solar capacity, in particular, was a whopping 4,813% more in 2016 than the EIA had predicted in 2006 it would be.

To be fair, there is a caveat here: The prediction in 2006 was that 10 years hence the US would be generating just 0.8 gigawatts (GW) of solar energy. With such a low baseline figure, any increase will look huge in percentage terms.
Nonetheless, there is an unmistakable trend in the data: The EIA regularly underestimates the growth in renewables but overestimates US fossil-fuel consumption, which some critics see as an attempt to boost the oil and gas industry.

These estimates matter because they form the basis for actions by the Environmental Protection Agency and other federal agencies (hence the outdated goals set in the Obama Administration’s Clean Power Plan, which may be reached without new policy intervention).

The agency’s “projections bear little resemblance to market realities” because they ignore publicly available evidence, argues the clean-energy non-profit Advanced Energy Economy. It cites the EIA’s 2015 expectation for solar capacity to double by 2026, despite a pipeline of projects that would—and ultimately did—exceed that benchmark by early 2017. Similarly, the EIA expected the installment of 6.5 GW of new wind capacity between 2017 and 2030—even though new US wind installations averaged 6.5 GW per year between 2007 and 2014. “They’re not just conservative about change,” Advanced Energy Economy vice-president Robert Keough told Politico. ” They’re ignoring the evidence of what’s actually happening in the market.”

But it may simply be a problem of methodology. Michael Grunwald at Politico reports the EIA seems to base its projections on the assumption that renewable energy costs won’t fall much, when in fact they keep plunging.

In the agency’s defense, the pace of technological change is unpredictable. Conservative models are almost always wrong during times of breakneck technological or economic change (as with wind and solar), and the government is not in the business of rosy speculation. Politicians do the EIA no favors by promoting, then threatening, tax credits to encourage renewable investments.

Even as the EIA (slowly) adjusts its models, the US will likely stay the renewable course. Solar and wind have reached grid parity in many places, reports UtilityDive (pdf), and the majority of new electricity-generating capacity in the US in the last two years has come from renewables. That proportion is only expected to grow.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28678 Posts
October 20 2017 13:51 GMT
#180671
On October 20 2017 22:08 Slydie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2017 19:04 Liquid`Drone wrote:
When people speak of 'point of no return' with regard to climate change, it does not mean 'we are fucked from that date', it means 'it'll be too late to revert emissions to hinder stuff like permafrost thawing which might release trapped greenhouse gasses'.

Basically the point of no return is a 'this ensures that global warming will happen on a 'bad' scale 50-100 years from now', not a 'it's gonna go to hell right now'. And there seems to be a consensus that this has already happened. Climate change will have disastrous effects. That's inevitable regardless of what we do now. The question is how disastrous - it's not a binary 'we're fucked' or 'we're fine', it's about moving us closer to the 'we're fine' point of that scale.

I also think arguments such as 'it'll be more costly to hinder climate change than to deal with the effects of climate change' could be totally fine. It's just that this argument is almost exclusively presented by people who also don't acknowledge the scientific consensus, and who also seem entirely opposed to the idea of dealing with the effects of climate change. (For example, there's a strong correlation between 'opposed to immigration' and 'thinks climate change isn't a real problem', but to me, one of the biggest problems with climate change is that even moderate projections will forcibly relocate a 9 digit number of people. The recent refugee crisis was completely insignificant compared to what might happen if any degree of; bangladesh floods, himalayas run out of water, middle east becomes too hot for humans to live, north africa runs out of water, happen. Nobody you should take seriously claims that all of these will definitely happen for sure, but it seems overwhelmingly likely that some of these to some degree happen, and there are so many people living in those regions that even if changes happen that make 10% of the population of those regions have to relocate because those regions can no longer support that many people, then we're looking at a couple hundred million people.. If you wanna be like, 'yeah, but we need the energy to thrive, us western countries just need to accept a couple hundred million more immigrants then', that'd actually be kinda fine with me. It's just, I've never actually seen someone hold that position.


I am all for immigration, but very sceptical about the climate hysteria, for some reasons:

-We are talking about projections with a high degree of uncertainty of an extremely complicated system.
-Our scope of climate is extremely small. Right now, the climate is historically GREAT, fairly warm and stable. What should be looked for ib 10s of millions of years, not 100s. At some point, we will face something truely dramatic, like an ice age or an ash cloud from a supervolcano, but I do not think this global warming is comparable to that.
-Humans deal very well with climate change, emigrating and changing lifestyle. We always have, and will always have to deal with them, as or planet is not a stable place.


The high degree of uncertainty is a fair argument against believing the worst projections. But not against the moderate ones. Like, you can look at it in terms of weather. Meteorologists get stuff wrong all the time (at least in Norway, other places have more stable weather ), so you get them saying it's gonna be 15 degrees (celcius, murcans) and cloudly and instead you get 12 degrees and rain. But they never predict 20 degrees and sunny for then snow to appear. So yeah, we don't know whether global temperatures will average out at +1 in 40 years or +1 in 60 years or when we get to +2 and we don't fully understand how sea levels will be affected so we don't know exactly how many bangladeshi will become refugees. There's a lot of stuff we don't know for sure. But we know that the climate is getting warmer, that humans contribute to the climate getting warmer, and we know that the continuation of this trend is overwhelmingly likely to have some really negative effects for some regions of the world.

As for the scope, what? We have trouble maintaining a 10 year scope of political action. Evidently, 100 years is also seemingly impossible to plan for. And you're advocating a 10 million year perspective? Also, we can do something about the things we can do something about. We can't control solar flares or supervolcanoes, but how many greenhouse gasses we emit depends upon our actions. Germany has decreased theirs from 1260 to 925 (million tons of Co2 equivalents) from 1990 to 2015. UK from 809 to 536. Neither of those two countries has been particularly hurt by those policies - I'd argue they've benefited even disregarding the long term effects climate change has on our planet - everybody prefers to live with less pollution.

The thing about that last one is.. From like a historical point of view, sure. Humanity is going to continue existing. But politics is about making life better and more livable. A political solution, or lack of solution, that leads to the death or extreme suffering of 200 million people, it'll be 'forgotten' 100 years after the fact. However, it's still pretty terrible during the period of death or suffering. And migration is not a painless procedure, not for the migrants, and not for the countries migrated to. Europe showed itself completely unwilling/unable to accommodate ~5 million syrian refugees. What are we gonna do if 50 million come knocking?

I mean, world war 2 happened. Then it ended, the world continued existing, some people learned from their mistakes, most people moved on. It's still not something we should repeat. Climate change has the potential to cause more death and suffering than WW2 did. Hell, I've seen the argument that the syrian civil war might not have happened if not for the already felt effects of climate change, although I don't have the insight to really evaluate whether that claim is true or not. (Much in the same vein how the french revolution might not have happened if not for a volcanic eruption on Iceland, also influencing the climate and hurting crops leading to starvation -> desperation -> violent action).
Moderator
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
October 20 2017 13:52 GMT
#180672

Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42867 Posts
October 20 2017 14:02 GMT
#180673
A lot of the arguments against green policies fundamentally miss the point of the argument, instead attempting to turn it into a debate about the value of fossil fuels to society, something which nobody questions. For most of human history our supply of energy was whatever you could physically do with muscle power during the day, assuming you were well fed. Then we added horses into the equation and doubled our energy output. Then we added fossil fuels into the equation and suddenly we can fly around the world or to the moon etc and we're all living like Gods compared to our grandfather's grandfather. Nobody doesn't understand how awesome near infinite stored energy in a convenient dense package coming out of the ground is.

The problem is that the process we use for finding out facts, the scientific method, and all the smartest people involved in that process all say that we need to find a different way to get energy because it's fucking shit up. That's not an attempt to deny or diminish how awesome fossil fuels are, nor an attempt to advocate for anything else, it's simply a fact. We pay these people to tell us what the facts are and they're all telling us the same thing. Whether or not we like those facts is irrelevant.

Bullshit like this
Before the Industrial Revolution, humanity depended on burning wood and candle wax. But with the ability to harness the energy in oil and other fossil fuels, quality of life and capacity for progress increased exponentially.
is arguing against an argument nobody made.

If a statistician came to you and said that overfishing of your favourite fish was likely to lead to a population collapse, as shown by his sampling data and models, you wouldn't accuse him of hating fish and chips. Nor would you build an argument around how tasty fish is, or demand to know if he's one of those weird vegans. You certainly wouldn't suggest that he hates your English culture and national dish. And you'd feel quite stupid for suggesting that humans need food to survive, that this fish is a kind of food, and therefore if we stop fishing it then we'll all die. But if it's oil then suddenly all that nonsense comes out.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
October 20 2017 14:26 GMT
#180674
On October 20 2017 22:52 Danglars wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=At1hOCEIwE8
https://twitter.com/HashtagGriswold/status/921345113485463552


Sexist may actually be accurate. The way Kelly said "this woman" was pretty interesting.
Adreme
Profile Joined June 2011
United States5574 Posts
October 20 2017 14:29 GMT
#180675
Ahhh there it is the Danglers dodge. When you are determined to defend the indefensible because merely admitting the president screwed up would be impossible for your worldview, you instead change the argument to not be about the thing in question which cannot be defended you decide to make it about the reporting about the thing that cannot be defended.

No matter what else you try to talk about instead Dangers, the president was CLEARLY in the wrong here. It was probably not intentional, he did not wake up and say "let me offend the widow to a fallen soldier today" but he did and instead owning up to it like an adult he decided to be a child and lie about the entire thing. If he had take the mature adult approach and simply said to her "I did not communicate what I was trying to say very well, I was merely alluding to the fact that you must have gone thru this possibility in your head every single day since he left, since that is the greatest fear of every spouse of a soldier, but even with all that the real thing must still truly sting. I am sorry it came across how it did and I truly salute you and your husband for the service that you both provided to this country and his memory will live in through you and your children (I think he has children I do not remember very well)"

Say that, make sure it gets public and the entire story goes away in less then a day and by the way I wrote that on the fly a real version would be much better. Instead he decided to fight against a delicate a fallen widow because his ego is so small and fragile that the mere thought of being wrong causes him to lash out.

I get that you want to talk about anything but the president being wrong, but can you at least admit that this ENTIRE mess is of the presidents own making and that he messed up?
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
October 20 2017 14:37 GMT
#180676
On October 20 2017 23:29 Adreme wrote:
Ahhh there it is the Danglers dodge. When you are determined to defend the indefensible because merely admitting the president screwed up would be impossible for your worldview, you instead change the argument to not be about the thing in question which cannot be defended you decide to make it about the reporting about the thing that cannot be defended.

No matter what else you try to talk about instead Dangers, the president was CLEARLY in the wrong here. It was probably not intentional, he did not wake up and say "let me offend the widow to a fallen soldier today" but he did and instead owning up to it like an adult he decided to be a child and lie about the entire thing. If he had take the mature adult approach and simply said to her "I did not communicate what I was trying to say very well, I was merely alluding to the fact that you must have gone thru this possibility in your head every single day since he left, since that is the greatest fear of every spouse of a soldier, but even with all that the real thing must still truly sting. I am sorry it came across how it did and I truly salute you and your husband for the service that you both provided to this country and his memory will live in through you and your children (I think he has children I do not remember very well)"

Say that, make sure it gets public and the entire story goes away in less then a day and by the way I wrote that on the fly a real version would be much better. Instead he decided to fight against a delicate a fallen widow because his ego is so small and fragile that the mere thought of being wrong causes him to lash out.

I get that you want to talk about anything but the president being wrong, but can you at least admit that this ENTIRE mess is of the presidents own making and that he messed up?

And Saint Obama has no scandals and didn't presage any of this shit. It would be more tiresome if it was less widespread, but you see it everyday. Rather sad.

Adreme has a monk like serenity when he straight ignores the John Kelly briefing and tweet to focus in on Donald Trump. You see, facts don't matter to him. Straight up. He can respond to a post without even pretending to address the substance of the post. Seriously. It takes a special mania to talk past the actual post and then ask questions as if everything's peachy. When you decide not to troll, I'll be here. Maybe next current event?
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42867 Posts
October 20 2017 14:40 GMT
#180677
On October 20 2017 23:37 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2017 23:29 Adreme wrote:
Ahhh there it is the Danglers dodge. When you are determined to defend the indefensible because merely admitting the president screwed up would be impossible for your worldview, you instead change the argument to not be about the thing in question which cannot be defended you decide to make it about the reporting about the thing that cannot be defended.

No matter what else you try to talk about instead Dangers, the president was CLEARLY in the wrong here. It was probably not intentional, he did not wake up and say "let me offend the widow to a fallen soldier today" but he did and instead owning up to it like an adult he decided to be a child and lie about the entire thing. If he had take the mature adult approach and simply said to her "I did not communicate what I was trying to say very well, I was merely alluding to the fact that you must have gone thru this possibility in your head every single day since he left, since that is the greatest fear of every spouse of a soldier, but even with all that the real thing must still truly sting. I am sorry it came across how it did and I truly salute you and your husband for the service that you both provided to this country and his memory will live in through you and your children (I think he has children I do not remember very well)"

Say that, make sure it gets public and the entire story goes away in less then a day and by the way I wrote that on the fly a real version would be much better. Instead he decided to fight against a delicate a fallen widow because his ego is so small and fragile that the mere thought of being wrong causes him to lash out.

I get that you want to talk about anything but the president being wrong, but can you at least admit that this ENTIRE mess is of the presidents own making and that he messed up?

And Saint Obama has no scandals and didn't presage any of this shit. It would be more tiresome if it was less widespread, but you see it everyday. Rather sad.

Adreme has a monk like serenity when he straight ignores the John Kelly briefing and tweet to focus in on Donald Trump. You see, facts don't matter to him. Straight up. He can respond to a post without even pretending to address the substance of the post. Seriously. It takes a special mania to talk past the actual post and then ask questions as if everything's peachy. When you decide not to troll, I'll be here. Maybe next current event?

Wait, how is this now about Obama and his beatification? Wasn't this about Trump not being able to express sympathy to a widow?
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
brian
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States9620 Posts
October 20 2017 14:45 GMT
#180678
Danglars has a monk like serenity..
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11542 Posts
October 20 2017 14:45 GMT
#180679
On October 20 2017 23:40 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2017 23:37 Danglars wrote:
On October 20 2017 23:29 Adreme wrote:
Ahhh there it is the Danglers dodge. When you are determined to defend the indefensible because merely admitting the president screwed up would be impossible for your worldview, you instead change the argument to not be about the thing in question which cannot be defended you decide to make it about the reporting about the thing that cannot be defended.

No matter what else you try to talk about instead Dangers, the president was CLEARLY in the wrong here. It was probably not intentional, he did not wake up and say "let me offend the widow to a fallen soldier today" but he did and instead owning up to it like an adult he decided to be a child and lie about the entire thing. If he had take the mature adult approach and simply said to her "I did not communicate what I was trying to say very well, I was merely alluding to the fact that you must have gone thru this possibility in your head every single day since he left, since that is the greatest fear of every spouse of a soldier, but even with all that the real thing must still truly sting. I am sorry it came across how it did and I truly salute you and your husband for the service that you both provided to this country and his memory will live in through you and your children (I think he has children I do not remember very well)"

Say that, make sure it gets public and the entire story goes away in less then a day and by the way I wrote that on the fly a real version would be much better. Instead he decided to fight against a delicate a fallen widow because his ego is so small and fragile that the mere thought of being wrong causes him to lash out.

I get that you want to talk about anything but the president being wrong, but can you at least admit that this ENTIRE mess is of the presidents own making and that he messed up?

And Saint Obama has no scandals and didn't presage any of this shit. It would be more tiresome if it was less widespread, but you see it everyday. Rather sad.

Adreme has a monk like serenity when he straight ignores the John Kelly briefing and tweet to focus in on Donald Trump. You see, facts don't matter to him. Straight up. He can respond to a post without even pretending to address the substance of the post. Seriously. It takes a special mania to talk past the actual post and then ask questions as if everything's peachy. When you decide not to troll, I'll be here. Maybe next current event?

Wait, how is this now about Obama and his beatification? Wasn't this about Trump not being able to express sympathy to a widow?


Always deflect, never talk about Trump. If you talk about Trump, you will eventually have to admit he was in the wrong, because he almost always is. But you can prevent that from happening if you just deflect onto something else, like Obama/Hillary/The reporting on the stuff Trump did.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
October 20 2017 14:48 GMT
#180680
Let's see. I post about Kelly/Congresswoman angle, everybody assumes this is a Trump dodge and won't address jack shit on topic. Trump really has messed with people's minds.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
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