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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On October 06 2017 02:32 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2017 02:05 farvacola wrote:On October 06 2017 01:50 Liquid`Drone wrote:On October 06 2017 01:32 brian wrote:On October 06 2017 01:31 Slydie wrote:On October 06 2017 01:19 zlefin wrote:
They aren't presented with such options becuase they aren't voting for the kind of people who work diligently and thoughtfully to fix problems in a rigorous manner. It's not like it's impossible to figure out how to fix such things; voters simply do not reward people for such. There's plenty of plausible options, the public just doesn't want to hear them, because they don't wnat to hear about policy. As a foreginer, there are some seriously weird up values among voters in the US too, like abortion, death penalty, police violence, gun control, healthcare "only for me" and more. Add to that the structral problems like campaign donations, opression of unions, education, industry lobbyists, the 2-party system, gerrymandering etc. and I believe: You are fucked. do you not have strong opinions on those ‘weird values?’ I think he meant to say that you guys have weird opinions on those particular issues. Which, from a european pov, regarding those particular issues, is true for like 40% of you guys. It kinda feels like what happened is that democrats/young people/urbanites to a larger degree have adopted european values and republicans try to counter-balance by being even more staunchly traditional american. Nah, by taking this line, you're giving American conservatives exactly what they want in the same vein that the Federalist Society keeps trying to force everyone to associate constitutionalism with conservatism. The concept of "Traditional American" ideals is a game of political smoke and mirrors in which political entities do their best to narrow the scope of inquiry such that the association works in their favor. For example, Conservatives love pointing at Thomas Jefferson, cherry-picked Federalist Papers, and Jacksonian American Exceptionalism while shouting "THIS IS AMERICA," but those things are in no way essentially figurative. Liberals do the same with Hamilton, the now practically written out of existence 9th Amendment, and the shitshow that was an early America full of asshole states that wanted to do everything in their power to reneg on debts, avoid federal laws, and preserve the status of their ruling classes. Depending on how you frame things, the US is either a conservative country that made a few mistakes (slavery, 3/5s clause, Dred Scott) or a liberal country that has never managed to shrug off its history of abject racism and "fuck you, I got mine" sentiments. Neither perspective has any essential truth to it, so when it comes to delineating US politics, I don't think it makes sense to associate Americanism with a particular side of the spectrum. That said, you're definitely right in the sense that our liberals owes a great deal to our European brethren and the work they've done while we still argue with cowards too afraid or too stupid to admit that our country has a seemingly perpetual problem with race and class relations. Though in a relativistic sense, we're definitely more conservative than Europe. Well, say traditional american values from a european perspective then. Your last sentence errs a bit in the same way my post does btw, Europe east of Germany is in many ways more conservative than the US is (but there's a strong tendency to consider western europe the 'true' europe), and american progressives have, the past 5-10 years, surprised me through going further on many issues than what similarly minded groups in Europe do. Like, from my cursory glance, Portland is more alternative than Kreuzberg is. And while you guys severely lagged behind some western european countries like the netherlands with regard to homosexual rights, I think the parts of the US where transgenders are accepted are more accepting than what the case is for virtually anywhere in Europe. Your republicans are much further to the 'right' than our conservatives are. If we go 30 years back in time, that was not the case. Our conservative party still considers the republicans their american sister-party, because that's how it was historically - but I'm fairly confident someone like Kwark would probably vote for them. During the 90s, my perception was that both democrats and republicans would find themselves on the very right segment of Norwegian politics. Now, republicans go much further than our progress party does (most right-wing party with parliamentary representation), whereas half the democratic voters who post here sound like your average Norwegian labor party voter - the other half, like Kwark, would prolly go conservative.
Can this change in movement by conservatives be drawn to the implementation of the Southern Strategy by Republicans?
Where EU conservatives kept fighting for the center the US conservatives turned further to the right to win.
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On October 06 2017 02:45 mahrgell wrote:
Are you sure you have any idea about the Swiss gun culture, Danglars?
It was this thread, the one before it, or the Euro thread that went into how it was similar and differed from other European countries and the USA. I'm not implying I'm on board with mandatory conscription, or that it confirms all my preconceived notions of an ideal gun culture. We don't have to be partisan on every last thing.
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On October 06 2017 02:49 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2017 02:32 Liquid`Drone wrote:On October 06 2017 02:05 farvacola wrote:On October 06 2017 01:50 Liquid`Drone wrote:On October 06 2017 01:32 brian wrote:On October 06 2017 01:31 Slydie wrote:On October 06 2017 01:19 zlefin wrote:
They aren't presented with such options becuase they aren't voting for the kind of people who work diligently and thoughtfully to fix problems in a rigorous manner. It's not like it's impossible to figure out how to fix such things; voters simply do not reward people for such. There's plenty of plausible options, the public just doesn't want to hear them, because they don't wnat to hear about policy. As a foreginer, there are some seriously weird up values among voters in the US too, like abortion, death penalty, police violence, gun control, healthcare "only for me" and more. Add to that the structral problems like campaign donations, opression of unions, education, industry lobbyists, the 2-party system, gerrymandering etc. and I believe: You are fucked. do you not have strong opinions on those ‘weird values?’ I think he meant to say that you guys have weird opinions on those particular issues. Which, from a european pov, regarding those particular issues, is true for like 40% of you guys. It kinda feels like what happened is that democrats/young people/urbanites to a larger degree have adopted european values and republicans try to counter-balance by being even more staunchly traditional american. Nah, by taking this line, you're giving American conservatives exactly what they want in the same vein that the Federalist Society keeps trying to force everyone to associate constitutionalism with conservatism. The concept of "Traditional American" ideals is a game of political smoke and mirrors in which political entities do their best to narrow the scope of inquiry such that the association works in their favor. For example, Conservatives love pointing at Thomas Jefferson, cherry-picked Federalist Papers, and Jacksonian American Exceptionalism while shouting "THIS IS AMERICA," but those things are in no way essentially figurative. Liberals do the same with Hamilton, the now practically written out of existence 9th Amendment, and the shitshow that was an early America full of asshole states that wanted to do everything in their power to reneg on debts, avoid federal laws, and preserve the status of their ruling classes. Depending on how you frame things, the US is either a conservative country that made a few mistakes (slavery, 3/5s clause, Dred Scott) or a liberal country that has never managed to shrug off its history of abject racism and "fuck you, I got mine" sentiments. Neither perspective has any essential truth to it, so when it comes to delineating US politics, I don't think it makes sense to associate Americanism with a particular side of the spectrum. That said, you're definitely right in the sense that our liberals owes a great deal to our European brethren and the work they've done while we still argue with cowards too afraid or too stupid to admit that our country has a seemingly perpetual problem with race and class relations. Though in a relativistic sense, we're definitely more conservative than Europe. Well, say traditional american values from a european perspective then. Your last sentence errs a bit in the same way my post does btw, Europe east of Germany is in many ways more conservative than the US is (but there's a strong tendency to consider western europe the 'true' europe), and american progressives have, the past 5-10 years, surprised me through going further on many issues than what similarly minded groups in Europe do. Like, from my cursory glance, Portland is more alternative than Kreuzberg is. And while you guys severely lagged behind some western european countries like the netherlands with regard to homosexual rights, I think the parts of the US where transgenders are accepted are more accepting than what the case is for virtually anywhere in Europe. Your republicans are much further to the 'right' than our conservatives are. If we go 30 years back in time, that was not the case. Our conservative party still considers the republicans their american sister-party, because that's how it was historically - but I'm fairly confident someone like Kwark would probably vote for them. During the 90s, my perception was that both democrats and republicans would find themselves on the very right segment of Norwegian politics. Now, republicans go much further than our progress party does (most right-wing party with parliamentary representation), whereas half the democratic voters who post here sound like your average Norwegian labor party voter - the other half, like Kwark, would prolly go conservative. Can this change in movement by conservatives be drawn to the implementation of the Southern Strategy by Republicans? Where EU conservatives kept fighting for the center the US conservatives turned further to the right to win. I think it'd make sense to also bring up Democrats pulling to the middle in the aftermath of Carter's presidency and during Clinton's sleight of hand presidency.
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On October 06 2017 02:52 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2017 02:49 Gorsameth wrote:On October 06 2017 02:32 Liquid`Drone wrote:On October 06 2017 02:05 farvacola wrote:On October 06 2017 01:50 Liquid`Drone wrote:On October 06 2017 01:32 brian wrote:On October 06 2017 01:31 Slydie wrote:On October 06 2017 01:19 zlefin wrote:
They aren't presented with such options becuase they aren't voting for the kind of people who work diligently and thoughtfully to fix problems in a rigorous manner. It's not like it's impossible to figure out how to fix such things; voters simply do not reward people for such. There's plenty of plausible options, the public just doesn't want to hear them, because they don't wnat to hear about policy. As a foreginer, there are some seriously weird up values among voters in the US too, like abortion, death penalty, police violence, gun control, healthcare "only for me" and more. Add to that the structral problems like campaign donations, opression of unions, education, industry lobbyists, the 2-party system, gerrymandering etc. and I believe: You are fucked. do you not have strong opinions on those ‘weird values?’ I think he meant to say that you guys have weird opinions on those particular issues. Which, from a european pov, regarding those particular issues, is true for like 40% of you guys. It kinda feels like what happened is that democrats/young people/urbanites to a larger degree have adopted european values and republicans try to counter-balance by being even more staunchly traditional american. Nah, by taking this line, you're giving American conservatives exactly what they want in the same vein that the Federalist Society keeps trying to force everyone to associate constitutionalism with conservatism. The concept of "Traditional American" ideals is a game of political smoke and mirrors in which political entities do their best to narrow the scope of inquiry such that the association works in their favor. For example, Conservatives love pointing at Thomas Jefferson, cherry-picked Federalist Papers, and Jacksonian American Exceptionalism while shouting "THIS IS AMERICA," but those things are in no way essentially figurative. Liberals do the same with Hamilton, the now practically written out of existence 9th Amendment, and the shitshow that was an early America full of asshole states that wanted to do everything in their power to reneg on debts, avoid federal laws, and preserve the status of their ruling classes. Depending on how you frame things, the US is either a conservative country that made a few mistakes (slavery, 3/5s clause, Dred Scott) or a liberal country that has never managed to shrug off its history of abject racism and "fuck you, I got mine" sentiments. Neither perspective has any essential truth to it, so when it comes to delineating US politics, I don't think it makes sense to associate Americanism with a particular side of the spectrum. That said, you're definitely right in the sense that our liberals owes a great deal to our European brethren and the work they've done while we still argue with cowards too afraid or too stupid to admit that our country has a seemingly perpetual problem with race and class relations. Though in a relativistic sense, we're definitely more conservative than Europe. Well, say traditional american values from a european perspective then. Your last sentence errs a bit in the same way my post does btw, Europe east of Germany is in many ways more conservative than the US is (but there's a strong tendency to consider western europe the 'true' europe), and american progressives have, the past 5-10 years, surprised me through going further on many issues than what similarly minded groups in Europe do. Like, from my cursory glance, Portland is more alternative than Kreuzberg is. And while you guys severely lagged behind some western european countries like the netherlands with regard to homosexual rights, I think the parts of the US where transgenders are accepted are more accepting than what the case is for virtually anywhere in Europe. Your republicans are much further to the 'right' than our conservatives are. If we go 30 years back in time, that was not the case. Our conservative party still considers the republicans their american sister-party, because that's how it was historically - but I'm fairly confident someone like Kwark would probably vote for them. During the 90s, my perception was that both democrats and republicans would find themselves on the very right segment of Norwegian politics. Now, republicans go much further than our progress party does (most right-wing party with parliamentary representation), whereas half the democratic voters who post here sound like your average Norwegian labor party voter - the other half, like Kwark, would prolly go conservative. Can this change in movement by conservatives be drawn to the implementation of the Southern Strategy by Republicans? Where EU conservatives kept fighting for the center the US conservatives turned further to the right to win. I think it'd make sense to also bring up Democrats pulling to the middle in the aftermath of Carter's presidency and during Clinton's sleight of hand presidency.
Yeah, the amount of deregulation and terrible crime policy during the later Clinton years has not panned out. But to be fair, that is also congress deciding media regulation and complex crime policy was just to challenging to deal with.
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On October 06 2017 02:49 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2017 02:32 Liquid`Drone wrote:On October 06 2017 02:05 farvacola wrote:On October 06 2017 01:50 Liquid`Drone wrote:On October 06 2017 01:32 brian wrote:On October 06 2017 01:31 Slydie wrote:On October 06 2017 01:19 zlefin wrote:
They aren't presented with such options becuase they aren't voting for the kind of people who work diligently and thoughtfully to fix problems in a rigorous manner. It's not like it's impossible to figure out how to fix such things; voters simply do not reward people for such. There's plenty of plausible options, the public just doesn't want to hear them, because they don't wnat to hear about policy. As a foreginer, there are some seriously weird up values among voters in the US too, like abortion, death penalty, police violence, gun control, healthcare "only for me" and more. Add to that the structral problems like campaign donations, opression of unions, education, industry lobbyists, the 2-party system, gerrymandering etc. and I believe: You are fucked. do you not have strong opinions on those ‘weird values?’ I think he meant to say that you guys have weird opinions on those particular issues. Which, from a european pov, regarding those particular issues, is true for like 40% of you guys. It kinda feels like what happened is that democrats/young people/urbanites to a larger degree have adopted european values and republicans try to counter-balance by being even more staunchly traditional american. Nah, by taking this line, you're giving American conservatives exactly what they want in the same vein that the Federalist Society keeps trying to force everyone to associate constitutionalism with conservatism. The concept of "Traditional American" ideals is a game of political smoke and mirrors in which political entities do their best to narrow the scope of inquiry such that the association works in their favor. For example, Conservatives love pointing at Thomas Jefferson, cherry-picked Federalist Papers, and Jacksonian American Exceptionalism while shouting "THIS IS AMERICA," but those things are in no way essentially figurative. Liberals do the same with Hamilton, the now practically written out of existence 9th Amendment, and the shitshow that was an early America full of asshole states that wanted to do everything in their power to reneg on debts, avoid federal laws, and preserve the status of their ruling classes. Depending on how you frame things, the US is either a conservative country that made a few mistakes (slavery, 3/5s clause, Dred Scott) or a liberal country that has never managed to shrug off its history of abject racism and "fuck you, I got mine" sentiments. Neither perspective has any essential truth to it, so when it comes to delineating US politics, I don't think it makes sense to associate Americanism with a particular side of the spectrum. That said, you're definitely right in the sense that our liberals owes a great deal to our European brethren and the work they've done while we still argue with cowards too afraid or too stupid to admit that our country has a seemingly perpetual problem with race and class relations. Though in a relativistic sense, we're definitely more conservative than Europe. Well, say traditional american values from a european perspective then. Your last sentence errs a bit in the same way my post does btw, Europe east of Germany is in many ways more conservative than the US is (but there's a strong tendency to consider western europe the 'true' europe), and american progressives have, the past 5-10 years, surprised me through going further on many issues than what similarly minded groups in Europe do. Like, from my cursory glance, Portland is more alternative than Kreuzberg is. And while you guys severely lagged behind some western european countries like the netherlands with regard to homosexual rights, I think the parts of the US where transgenders are accepted are more accepting than what the case is for virtually anywhere in Europe. Your republicans are much further to the 'right' than our conservatives are. If we go 30 years back in time, that was not the case. Our conservative party still considers the republicans their american sister-party, because that's how it was historically - but I'm fairly confident someone like Kwark would probably vote for them. During the 90s, my perception was that both democrats and republicans would find themselves on the very right segment of Norwegian politics. Now, republicans go much further than our progress party does (most right-wing party with parliamentary representation), whereas half the democratic voters who post here sound like your average Norwegian labor party voter - the other half, like Kwark, would prolly go conservative. Can this change in movement by conservatives be drawn to the implementation of the Southern Strategy by Republicans? Where EU conservatives kept fighting for the center the US conservatives turned further to the right to win.
there is some research in the area, it starts somewhere around then, though looking at the graph it looks to post-date the start of the southern strategy. I haven't read that extensively on it, or through the article.
http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2012/04/10/150349438/gops-rightward-shift-higher-polarization-fills-political-scientist-with-dread
trying to post the graph itself, not sure if that will work right or not.
![[image loading]](http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2012/04/13/nominate-house_medians_custom-f2c9868bb2216f0d010779b021e5d3ff81ab1c52-s1400-c85.jpg)
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On October 06 2017 02:55 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2017 02:52 farvacola wrote:On October 06 2017 02:49 Gorsameth wrote:On October 06 2017 02:32 Liquid`Drone wrote:On October 06 2017 02:05 farvacola wrote:On October 06 2017 01:50 Liquid`Drone wrote:On October 06 2017 01:32 brian wrote:On October 06 2017 01:31 Slydie wrote:On October 06 2017 01:19 zlefin wrote:
They aren't presented with such options becuase they aren't voting for the kind of people who work diligently and thoughtfully to fix problems in a rigorous manner. It's not like it's impossible to figure out how to fix such things; voters simply do not reward people for such. There's plenty of plausible options, the public just doesn't want to hear them, because they don't wnat to hear about policy. As a foreginer, there are some seriously weird up values among voters in the US too, like abortion, death penalty, police violence, gun control, healthcare "only for me" and more. Add to that the structral problems like campaign donations, opression of unions, education, industry lobbyists, the 2-party system, gerrymandering etc. and I believe: You are fucked. do you not have strong opinions on those ‘weird values?’ I think he meant to say that you guys have weird opinions on those particular issues. Which, from a european pov, regarding those particular issues, is true for like 40% of you guys. It kinda feels like what happened is that democrats/young people/urbanites to a larger degree have adopted european values and republicans try to counter-balance by being even more staunchly traditional american. Nah, by taking this line, you're giving American conservatives exactly what they want in the same vein that the Federalist Society keeps trying to force everyone to associate constitutionalism with conservatism. The concept of "Traditional American" ideals is a game of political smoke and mirrors in which political entities do their best to narrow the scope of inquiry such that the association works in their favor. For example, Conservatives love pointing at Thomas Jefferson, cherry-picked Federalist Papers, and Jacksonian American Exceptionalism while shouting "THIS IS AMERICA," but those things are in no way essentially figurative. Liberals do the same with Hamilton, the now practically written out of existence 9th Amendment, and the shitshow that was an early America full of asshole states that wanted to do everything in their power to reneg on debts, avoid federal laws, and preserve the status of their ruling classes. Depending on how you frame things, the US is either a conservative country that made a few mistakes (slavery, 3/5s clause, Dred Scott) or a liberal country that has never managed to shrug off its history of abject racism and "fuck you, I got mine" sentiments. Neither perspective has any essential truth to it, so when it comes to delineating US politics, I don't think it makes sense to associate Americanism with a particular side of the spectrum. That said, you're definitely right in the sense that our liberals owes a great deal to our European brethren and the work they've done while we still argue with cowards too afraid or too stupid to admit that our country has a seemingly perpetual problem with race and class relations. Though in a relativistic sense, we're definitely more conservative than Europe. Well, say traditional american values from a european perspective then. Your last sentence errs a bit in the same way my post does btw, Europe east of Germany is in many ways more conservative than the US is (but there's a strong tendency to consider western europe the 'true' europe), and american progressives have, the past 5-10 years, surprised me through going further on many issues than what similarly minded groups in Europe do. Like, from my cursory glance, Portland is more alternative than Kreuzberg is. And while you guys severely lagged behind some western european countries like the netherlands with regard to homosexual rights, I think the parts of the US where transgenders are accepted are more accepting than what the case is for virtually anywhere in Europe. Your republicans are much further to the 'right' than our conservatives are. If we go 30 years back in time, that was not the case. Our conservative party still considers the republicans their american sister-party, because that's how it was historically - but I'm fairly confident someone like Kwark would probably vote for them. During the 90s, my perception was that both democrats and republicans would find themselves on the very right segment of Norwegian politics. Now, republicans go much further than our progress party does (most right-wing party with parliamentary representation), whereas half the democratic voters who post here sound like your average Norwegian labor party voter - the other half, like Kwark, would prolly go conservative. Can this change in movement by conservatives be drawn to the implementation of the Southern Strategy by Republicans? Where EU conservatives kept fighting for the center the US conservatives turned further to the right to win. I think it'd make sense to also bring up Democrats pulling to the middle in the aftermath of Carter's presidency and during Clinton's sleight of hand presidency. Yeah, the amount of deregulation and terrible crime policy during the later Clinton years has not panned out. But to be fair, that is also congress deciding media regulation and complex crime policy was just to challenging to deal with. The 90s were a behind the scenes shitshow and Bill was such a good politician that hardly anyone noticed until it was too late lol.
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I've been in Switzerland this year as they celebrated their national holiday. Foundation of Switzerland iirc.
I hear just fireworks. And people laughing.
Nobody got shot that day. Whereas I read that on the fourth of July on Chicago alone more than 100 were injured by gunshots.
Is this attributed to scaling effects?
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On October 06 2017 02:56 Artisreal wrote:
I've been in Switzerland this year as they celebrated their national holiday. Foundation of Switzerland iirc.
I hear just fireworks. And people laughing.
Nobody got shot that day. Whereas I read that on the fourth of July on Chicago alone more than 100 were injured by gunshots.
Is this attributed to scaling effects?
One of the key differences between the two nations, at least from where I'm sitting, is that an average Swiss individual is far more likely to be well-practiced in responsible gun use, a natural consequence of heavy regulation and government oversight with regards to ownership. In Chicago, one can take an Uber from the Southside right over the border into Indiana and buy a gun with no waiting period and no training whatsoever.
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That is.. quite impressive.
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On October 06 2017 02:56 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2017 02:55 Plansix wrote:On October 06 2017 02:52 farvacola wrote:On October 06 2017 02:49 Gorsameth wrote:On October 06 2017 02:32 Liquid`Drone wrote:On October 06 2017 02:05 farvacola wrote:On October 06 2017 01:50 Liquid`Drone wrote:On October 06 2017 01:32 brian wrote:On October 06 2017 01:31 Slydie wrote:On October 06 2017 01:19 zlefin wrote:
They aren't presented with such options becuase they aren't voting for the kind of people who work diligently and thoughtfully to fix problems in a rigorous manner. It's not like it's impossible to figure out how to fix such things; voters simply do not reward people for such. There's plenty of plausible options, the public just doesn't want to hear them, because they don't wnat to hear about policy. As a foreginer, there are some seriously weird up values among voters in the US too, like abortion, death penalty, police violence, gun control, healthcare "only for me" and more. Add to that the structral problems like campaign donations, opression of unions, education, industry lobbyists, the 2-party system, gerrymandering etc. and I believe: You are fucked. do you not have strong opinions on those ‘weird values?’ I think he meant to say that you guys have weird opinions on those particular issues. Which, from a european pov, regarding those particular issues, is true for like 40% of you guys. It kinda feels like what happened is that democrats/young people/urbanites to a larger degree have adopted european values and republicans try to counter-balance by being even more staunchly traditional american. Nah, by taking this line, you're giving American conservatives exactly what they want in the same vein that the Federalist Society keeps trying to force everyone to associate constitutionalism with conservatism. The concept of "Traditional American" ideals is a game of political smoke and mirrors in which political entities do their best to narrow the scope of inquiry such that the association works in their favor. For example, Conservatives love pointing at Thomas Jefferson, cherry-picked Federalist Papers, and Jacksonian American Exceptionalism while shouting "THIS IS AMERICA," but those things are in no way essentially figurative. Liberals do the same with Hamilton, the now practically written out of existence 9th Amendment, and the shitshow that was an early America full of asshole states that wanted to do everything in their power to reneg on debts, avoid federal laws, and preserve the status of their ruling classes. Depending on how you frame things, the US is either a conservative country that made a few mistakes (slavery, 3/5s clause, Dred Scott) or a liberal country that has never managed to shrug off its history of abject racism and "fuck you, I got mine" sentiments. Neither perspective has any essential truth to it, so when it comes to delineating US politics, I don't think it makes sense to associate Americanism with a particular side of the spectrum. That said, you're definitely right in the sense that our liberals owes a great deal to our European brethren and the work they've done while we still argue with cowards too afraid or too stupid to admit that our country has a seemingly perpetual problem with race and class relations. Though in a relativistic sense, we're definitely more conservative than Europe. Well, say traditional american values from a european perspective then. Your last sentence errs a bit in the same way my post does btw, Europe east of Germany is in many ways more conservative than the US is (but there's a strong tendency to consider western europe the 'true' europe), and american progressives have, the past 5-10 years, surprised me through going further on many issues than what similarly minded groups in Europe do. Like, from my cursory glance, Portland is more alternative than Kreuzberg is. And while you guys severely lagged behind some western european countries like the netherlands with regard to homosexual rights, I think the parts of the US where transgenders are accepted are more accepting than what the case is for virtually anywhere in Europe. Your republicans are much further to the 'right' than our conservatives are. If we go 30 years back in time, that was not the case. Our conservative party still considers the republicans their american sister-party, because that's how it was historically - but I'm fairly confident someone like Kwark would probably vote for them. During the 90s, my perception was that both democrats and republicans would find themselves on the very right segment of Norwegian politics. Now, republicans go much further than our progress party does (most right-wing party with parliamentary representation), whereas half the democratic voters who post here sound like your average Norwegian labor party voter - the other half, like Kwark, would prolly go conservative. Can this change in movement by conservatives be drawn to the implementation of the Southern Strategy by Republicans? Where EU conservatives kept fighting for the center the US conservatives turned further to the right to win. I think it'd make sense to also bring up Democrats pulling to the middle in the aftermath of Carter's presidency and during Clinton's sleight of hand presidency. Yeah, the amount of deregulation and terrible crime policy during the later Clinton years has not panned out. But to be fair, that is also congress deciding media regulation and complex crime policy was just to challenging to deal with. The 90s were a behind the scenes shitshow and Bill was such a good politician that hardly anyone noticed until it was too late lol.
That is also when the GOP developed it’s taste for endless congressional investigations, fueled by the Bill Clinton shit show. We that that to thank for the nightmare that is the House of Representatives today.
On October 06 2017 03:04 Artisreal wrote:
That is.. quite impressive.
And have no doubt, those gun shop owners love the crime in Chicago. Great for business. Like Tony Stark without the redemption arc.
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On October 06 2017 03:05 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2017 02:56 farvacola wrote:On October 06 2017 02:55 Plansix wrote:On October 06 2017 02:52 farvacola wrote:On October 06 2017 02:49 Gorsameth wrote:On October 06 2017 02:32 Liquid`Drone wrote:On October 06 2017 02:05 farvacola wrote:On October 06 2017 01:50 Liquid`Drone wrote:On October 06 2017 01:32 brian wrote:On October 06 2017 01:31 Slydie wrote:
[quote]
As a foreginer, there are some seriously weird up values among voters in the US too, like abortion, death penalty, police violence, gun control, healthcare "only for me" and more. Add to that the structral problems like campaign donations, opression of unions, education, industry lobbyists, the 2-party system, gerrymandering etc. and I believe:
You are fucked. do you not have strong opinions on those ‘weird values?’ I think he meant to say that you guys have weird opinions on those particular issues. Which, from a european pov, regarding those particular issues, is true for like 40% of you guys. It kinda feels like what happened is that democrats/young people/urbanites to a larger degree have adopted european values and republicans try to counter-balance by being even more staunchly traditional american. Nah, by taking this line, you're giving American conservatives exactly what they want in the same vein that the Federalist Society keeps trying to force everyone to associate constitutionalism with conservatism. The concept of "Traditional American" ideals is a game of political smoke and mirrors in which political entities do their best to narrow the scope of inquiry such that the association works in their favor. For example, Conservatives love pointing at Thomas Jefferson, cherry-picked Federalist Papers, and Jacksonian American Exceptionalism while shouting "THIS IS AMERICA," but those things are in no way essentially figurative. Liberals do the same with Hamilton, the now practically written out of existence 9th Amendment, and the shitshow that was an early America full of asshole states that wanted to do everything in their power to reneg on debts, avoid federal laws, and preserve the status of their ruling classes. Depending on how you frame things, the US is either a conservative country that made a few mistakes (slavery, 3/5s clause, Dred Scott) or a liberal country that has never managed to shrug off its history of abject racism and "fuck you, I got mine" sentiments. Neither perspective has any essential truth to it, so when it comes to delineating US politics, I don't think it makes sense to associate Americanism with a particular side of the spectrum. That said, you're definitely right in the sense that our liberals owes a great deal to our European brethren and the work they've done while we still argue with cowards too afraid or too stupid to admit that our country has a seemingly perpetual problem with race and class relations. Though in a relativistic sense, we're definitely more conservative than Europe. Well, say traditional american values from a european perspective then. Your last sentence errs a bit in the same way my post does btw, Europe east of Germany is in many ways more conservative than the US is (but there's a strong tendency to consider western europe the 'true' europe), and american progressives have, the past 5-10 years, surprised me through going further on many issues than what similarly minded groups in Europe do. Like, from my cursory glance, Portland is more alternative than Kreuzberg is. And while you guys severely lagged behind some western european countries like the netherlands with regard to homosexual rights, I think the parts of the US where transgenders are accepted are more accepting than what the case is for virtually anywhere in Europe. Your republicans are much further to the 'right' than our conservatives are. If we go 30 years back in time, that was not the case. Our conservative party still considers the republicans their american sister-party, because that's how it was historically - but I'm fairly confident someone like Kwark would probably vote for them. During the 90s, my perception was that both democrats and republicans would find themselves on the very right segment of Norwegian politics. Now, republicans go much further than our progress party does (most right-wing party with parliamentary representation), whereas half the democratic voters who post here sound like your average Norwegian labor party voter - the other half, like Kwark, would prolly go conservative. Can this change in movement by conservatives be drawn to the implementation of the Southern Strategy by Republicans? Where EU conservatives kept fighting for the center the US conservatives turned further to the right to win. I think it'd make sense to also bring up Democrats pulling to the middle in the aftermath of Carter's presidency and during Clinton's sleight of hand presidency. Yeah, the amount of deregulation and terrible crime policy during the later Clinton years has not panned out. But to be fair, that is also congress deciding media regulation and complex crime policy was just to challenging to deal with. The 90s were a behind the scenes shitshow and Bill was such a good politician that hardly anyone noticed until it was too late lol. That is also when the GOP developed it’s taste for endless congressional investigations, fueled by the Bill Clinton shit show. We that that to thank for the nightmare that is the House of Representatives today. And have no doubt, those gun shop owners love the crime in Chicago. Great for business. Like Tony Stark without the redemption arc.
and why would it not? the only way to protect yourself from criminals is guns. or so i’m told. it’s just smart business.
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On October 06 2017 03:13 brian wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2017 03:05 Plansix wrote:On October 06 2017 02:56 farvacola wrote:On October 06 2017 02:55 Plansix wrote:On October 06 2017 02:52 farvacola wrote:On October 06 2017 02:49 Gorsameth wrote:On October 06 2017 02:32 Liquid`Drone wrote:On October 06 2017 02:05 farvacola wrote:On October 06 2017 01:50 Liquid`Drone wrote:On October 06 2017 01:32 brian wrote:
[quote]
do you not have strong opinions on those ‘weird values?’ I think he meant to say that you guys have weird opinions on those particular issues. Which, from a european pov, regarding those particular issues, is true for like 40% of you guys. It kinda feels like what happened is that democrats/young people/urbanites to a larger degree have adopted european values and republicans try to counter-balance by being even more staunchly traditional american. Nah, by taking this line, you're giving American conservatives exactly what they want in the same vein that the Federalist Society keeps trying to force everyone to associate constitutionalism with conservatism. The concept of "Traditional American" ideals is a game of political smoke and mirrors in which political entities do their best to narrow the scope of inquiry such that the association works in their favor. For example, Conservatives love pointing at Thomas Jefferson, cherry-picked Federalist Papers, and Jacksonian American Exceptionalism while shouting "THIS IS AMERICA," but those things are in no way essentially figurative. Liberals do the same with Hamilton, the now practically written out of existence 9th Amendment, and the shitshow that was an early America full of asshole states that wanted to do everything in their power to reneg on debts, avoid federal laws, and preserve the status of their ruling classes. Depending on how you frame things, the US is either a conservative country that made a few mistakes (slavery, 3/5s clause, Dred Scott) or a liberal country that has never managed to shrug off its history of abject racism and "fuck you, I got mine" sentiments. Neither perspective has any essential truth to it, so when it comes to delineating US politics, I don't think it makes sense to associate Americanism with a particular side of the spectrum. That said, you're definitely right in the sense that our liberals owes a great deal to our European brethren and the work they've done while we still argue with cowards too afraid or too stupid to admit that our country has a seemingly perpetual problem with race and class relations. Though in a relativistic sense, we're definitely more conservative than Europe. Well, say traditional american values from a european perspective then. Your last sentence errs a bit in the same way my post does btw, Europe east of Germany is in many ways more conservative than the US is (but there's a strong tendency to consider western europe the 'true' europe), and american progressives have, the past 5-10 years, surprised me through going further on many issues than what similarly minded groups in Europe do. Like, from my cursory glance, Portland is more alternative than Kreuzberg is. And while you guys severely lagged behind some western european countries like the netherlands with regard to homosexual rights, I think the parts of the US where transgenders are accepted are more accepting than what the case is for virtually anywhere in Europe. Your republicans are much further to the 'right' than our conservatives are. If we go 30 years back in time, that was not the case. Our conservative party still considers the republicans their american sister-party, because that's how it was historically - but I'm fairly confident someone like Kwark would probably vote for them. During the 90s, my perception was that both democrats and republicans would find themselves on the very right segment of Norwegian politics. Now, republicans go much further than our progress party does (most right-wing party with parliamentary representation), whereas half the democratic voters who post here sound like your average Norwegian labor party voter - the other half, like Kwark, would prolly go conservative. Can this change in movement by conservatives be drawn to the implementation of the Southern Strategy by Republicans? Where EU conservatives kept fighting for the center the US conservatives turned further to the right to win. I think it'd make sense to also bring up Democrats pulling to the middle in the aftermath of Carter's presidency and during Clinton's sleight of hand presidency. Yeah, the amount of deregulation and terrible crime policy during the later Clinton years has not panned out. But to be fair, that is also congress deciding media regulation and complex crime policy was just to challenging to deal with. The 90s were a behind the scenes shitshow and Bill was such a good politician that hardly anyone noticed until it was too late lol. That is also when the GOP developed it’s taste for endless congressional investigations, fueled by the Bill Clinton shit show. We that that to thank for the nightmare that is the House of Representatives today. On October 06 2017 03:04 Artisreal wrote:
That is.. quite impressive. And have no doubt, those gun shop owners love the crime in Chicago. Great for business. Like Tony Stark without the redemption arc. and why would it not? the only way to protect yourself from criminals is guns. or so i’m told. it’s just smart business.
Just think if the US collected any form of data on gun sales, we could know exactly how many easily modified military style rifles are sold along the border to Mexico.
Hint: It is likely far more than most Americans would be comfortable with.
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Well, at least we know that the NRA does have some standards of decency.
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On October 06 2017 03:40 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Well, at least we know that the NRA does have some standards of decency.
Or they want to deflect more severe regulation changes and the bump stock manufacturers aren't the same big gun manufacturer donors that donate large sums of money to the NRA (that's my understanding of the bump stock makers at least, but I had trouble verifying both their size and their donation history)? Or in general they realize it's low hanging fruit they can give up to avoid bigger changes.
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Or they are giving cover for the GOP to make a bump stock ban and allow silencers and so on.
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On October 06 2017 03:46 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Or they are giving cover for the GOP to make a bump stock ban and allow silencers and so on.
Well that too, it's really hard to think they want decency when they simultaneously have a 2nd bill that will open up new markets.
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On October 06 2017 03:41 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2017 03:40 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Well, at least we know that the NRA does have some standards of decency. Or they want to deflect more severe regulation changes and the bump stock manufacturers aren't the same big gun manufacturer donors that donate large sums of money to the NRA (that's my understanding of the bump stock makers at least, but I had trouble verifying both their size and their donation history)? Or in general they realize it's low hanging fruit they can give up to avoid bigger changes.
Bump stocks are made by two very small companies that don't even sell guns proper I don't think. definitely not one of the major gun companies or the major players behind the NRA.
But yeah its pretty low hanging fruit that they can bleed all the heat from the event on without anything really happening.
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shit. well, congress is gonna have fun with this one.
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On October 06 2017 03:49 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2017 03:41 Logo wrote:On October 06 2017 03:40 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Well, at least we know that the NRA does have some standards of decency. Or they want to deflect more severe regulation changes and the bump stock manufacturers aren't the same big gun manufacturer donors that donate large sums of money to the NRA (that's my understanding of the bump stock makers at least, but I had trouble verifying both their size and their donation history)? Or in general they realize it's low hanging fruit they can give up to avoid bigger changes. Bump stocks are made by two very small companies that don't even sell guns proper I don't think. definitely not one of the major gun companies or the major players behind the NRA. But yeah its pretty low hanging fruit that they can bleed all the heat from the event on without anything really happening.
Well it's not *nothing*. It's certainly better than the expected "nothing happens". Even if it only slightly changes what happens in the future (I've read a little bit suggesting that without a bump stock you may have had less injured people but about the same # of fatalities, but that's not easy to take as fact or verify).
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EPT
