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On October 06 2017 01:19 zlefin wrote:
They aren't presented with such options becuase they aren't voting for the kind of people who work diligently and thoughtfully to fix problems in a rigorous manner. It's not like it's impossible to figure out how to fix such things; voters simply do not reward people for such. There's plenty of plausible options, the public just doesn't want to hear them, because they don't wnat to hear about policy.
As a foreginer, there are some seriously weird up values among voters in the US too, like abortion, death penalty, police violence, gun control, healthcare "only for me" and more. Add to that the structral problems like campaign donations, opression of unions, education, industry lobbyists, the 2-party system, gerrymandering etc. and I believe:
You are fucked.
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On October 06 2017 01:31 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2017 01:19 zlefin wrote:
They aren't presented with such options becuase they aren't voting for the kind of people who work diligently and thoughtfully to fix problems in a rigorous manner. It's not like it's impossible to figure out how to fix such things; voters simply do not reward people for such. There's plenty of plausible options, the public just doesn't want to hear them, because they don't wnat to hear about policy. As a foreginer, there are some seriously weird up values among voters in the US too, like abortion, death penalty, police violence, gun control, healthcare "only for me" and more. Add to that the structral problems like campaign donations, opression of unions, education, industry lobbyists, the 2-party system, gerrymandering etc. and I believe: You are fucked.
do you not have strong opinions on those ‘weird values?’
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On October 06 2017 01:25 PhoenixVoid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2017 01:04 Plansix wrote:
Republicans And Democrats Don't Agree, Don't Like Each Other And It's Worse Than Ever
The partisan split in America is the highest it's been in two decades, with Republicans and Democrats holding vastly disparate views on race, immigration and the role of government, according to a new study from the Pew Research Center.
Pew has been measuring attitudes on policy issues and political values dating back to 1994, and its latest check-in finds — perhaps unsurprisingly — that Americans are more divided than ever.
"The fact that Republicans and Democrats differ on these fundamental issues is probably not a surprise, but the magnitude of the difference is striking, and particularly how the differences have grown in recent years and where they've grown," Carroll Doherty, Pew's director of political research and one of the authors of the study, told NPR.
Pew asked more than 5,000 respondents this summer about 10 specific political issues — ranging from government regulation and aid, same-sex marriage and environmental regulations — and found that, on average, there was a 36-point gap between Republicans and Democrats. That's a whopping 21-point increase since it began tracking those questions 23 years ago.
Partisanship has risen markedly since 2004, the year President Bush was re-elected, and has hit a new high.
Two decades before, there was about a 15-point gap between Republicans and Democrats on these issues, but it wasn't that much more pronounced than differences in race or religion.
Now, how you identify politically is — by far — the starkest divider of how Americans see certain issues.
The widest two gaps were on views about race and government aid to the poor. Overall, 41 percent of Americans said that racial discrimination is the reason black people struggle to get ahead, which is the highest mark in the survey's history; 49 percent, however, still said that African-Americans who couldn't advance were responsible for their own situation.
But broken down along party lines, there's a huge 50-point gap between how Republicans and Democrats see the issue — almost two-thirds (64 percent) of Democrats think some African Americans struggle to get ahead because of discrimination, while just 14 percent of Republicans think so.
Back in 1994, 39 percent of Democrats thought the same thing — a 25-point uptick — while just a quarter (24 percent) of Republicans thought so, a 12-point drop in the two decades since.
There's also a 47-point gap between Democrats who believe that government should do more to help the needy (71 percent) and Republicans, who agree with that statement (just 24 percent.) Democrats' belief that the government needs to do more to help is from 58 percent in 1994.
A minority of Republicans have held that belief, and even fewer do today than a decade ago. The percentage saying so has fallen 21 points since 2007.
On immigration, there's also a wide chasm between the parties — 84 percent of Democrats say immigrants have strengthened the country with their "hard work and talents."
That's a 52-point increase since 1994.
But the percentage of Republicans saying immigrants help the country is half that (42 percent). A plurality of Republicans (44 percent) believes immigrants are a burden, but that 42 percent is actually higher than in 1994 for Republicans.
There is evidence of a generational shift among Republicans on social issues. On issues like immigration and support for same-sex marriage, for example, there was more support among younger Republicans.
On immigration, for example, 62 percent of Republicans under 30 said immigrants strengthen the country (20 points higher than the GOP overall). Just 31 percent of Republicans 65 and older believed the same thing.
Majorities in both parties also now said that being gay should be accepted by society. But the margin is far wider among Democrats than Republicans — More than 4-in-5 (83 percent) Democrats said so, while just more than half (54 percent) of Republicans agreed. Because Democratic support has exploded, the gap between the two parties has actually gotten wider despite broader acceptance by people in both parties.
On other issues, like environmental regulations (and whether they have hurt the economy) and use of the military versus non-interventionism, the parties have also moved in very different directions over the past two decades.
Like on all the issues Pew tested, Doherty explained that with each party being pulled further into their corners, it's been harder for legislators in Washington to reach any type of middle-ground consensus.
SourceThe divide grows and will likely get far worse in the next decade. I've been watching the Ken Burns documentary on the Vietnam War lately, and it's astonishing how relevant the social challenges and debates are still echoing from the 60s and 70s to today, and how the roots of this polarization started there. The one that was the most poignant to me was the conflict between anti-war protestors and supporters of the military action where we pretty much got a repeat (or what we're repeating for a better description) of the debate we had in this thread over flag and anthem versus the right to protest your country, and whether you were a patriot or a Communist traitor. What I've been understanding over the years is that the U.S. is a nation that has yet to conclude their major positions for decades in comparison to most Western democracies, and no one is being satisfied. With this frustration they retreat further into their extremes.
My frustration is that we didn't see it coming or thought we were beyond it because we didn't discuss these issues. These issues have been looming for a generation. I heard about the fear of the baby boomer's retirement for my entire childhood, but we didn't bother to prepare for it. We didn't even prepare for the debate about preparing for it. Police violence against blacks was a huge issue in the 1990s, but everyone just decided they solved it after that. I've been hearing about the fact that we have the largest prison population in the world since the early 2000, but nothing. Student loans for my entire life, nothing. Immigration, nothing. Get two decades of doing nothing beyond passing a single bill trying to reform healthcare and the population will get pissed. Recent polling showed that the majority of Americans fear retirement more than death.
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The discussion about these topics is just way more reasonable in most of europe, even when the results end up pretty similar like in the US.
As an example: Abortion is a big topic everywhere for some groups but its not a core issue for big parties, just for some extremely conservative splinterparties.
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On October 06 2017 01:39 Velr wrote:
The discussion about these topics is just way more reasonable in most of europe, even when the results end up pretty similar like in the US.
Abortion is a big topic everywhere for some groups but its not a core issue except for some extremely conservative splinterparties.
totally understand. but to frame it as a weird voter value isn’t right then. you have these same values right? if a mainstream party’s platform was outlawing abortions would you not suddenly find yourself with some weird values?
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On October 06 2017 01:17 Plansix wrote:
The voters are not presented with a path to fixing things, or even options. There is no agreement on the way forward, so no decisions can be made. There is no agreement on how voters disagree with each other.
But when we see stuff like the dude getting primaried by someone who says homosexuality should be illegal, it is hard to say the voters have no place in this. When given choices, they went further off the deep end.
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On October 06 2017 01:32 brian wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2017 01:31 Slydie wrote:On October 06 2017 01:19 zlefin wrote:
They aren't presented with such options becuase they aren't voting for the kind of people who work diligently and thoughtfully to fix problems in a rigorous manner. It's not like it's impossible to figure out how to fix such things; voters simply do not reward people for such. There's plenty of plausible options, the public just doesn't want to hear them, because they don't wnat to hear about policy. As a foreginer, there are some seriously weird up values among voters in the US too, like abortion, death penalty, police violence, gun control, healthcare "only for me" and more. Add to that the structral problems like campaign donations, opression of unions, education, industry lobbyists, the 2-party system, gerrymandering etc. and I believe: You are fucked. do you not have strong opinions on those ‘weird values?’
Just look up the structure for police and law enforcement in most EU countries. They moved beyond the quasi military style structure and separated police work out across different agencies. The police to handle foot patrols and petty crime not part of the same agency as the ones that solve murders and other crimes. It is a very different system that does not link the performance of solving murders to writing tickets for traffic violations.
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On October 06 2017 01:19 zlefin wrote:
They aren't presented with such options becuase they aren't voting for the kind of people who work diligently and thoughtfully to fix problems in a rigorous manner. It's not like it's impossible to figure out how to fix such things; voters simply do not reward people for such. There's plenty of plausible options, the public just doesn't want to hear them, because they don't wnat to hear about policy.
Honest question: who, after working 8 to 10 hours plus commute wants to think about what to do in the wake of automation instead of spending time with kids/loved ones/firends/hobbies?
I suspect it's not that many, I certainly wouldn't put myself into that group. I have specific interests that I pursue politically form time to time but that doesn't cover even 10% of the most important questions of our time (number is random).
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On October 06 2017 01:41 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2017 01:17 Plansix wrote:
The voters are not presented with a path to fixing things, or even options. There is no agreement on the way forward, so no decisions can be made. There is no agreement on how voters disagree with each other. But when we see stuff like the dude getting primaried by someone who says homosexuality should be illegal, it is hard to say the voters have no place in this. When given choices, they went further off the deep end.
Alabama gonna Alabama, consequences be damned.
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On October 06 2017 01:36 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2017 01:25 PhoenixVoid wrote:On October 06 2017 01:04 Plansix wrote:
Republicans And Democrats Don't Agree, Don't Like Each Other And It's Worse Than Ever
The partisan split in America is the highest it's been in two decades, with Republicans and Democrats holding vastly disparate views on race, immigration and the role of government, according to a new study from the Pew Research Center.
Pew has been measuring attitudes on policy issues and political values dating back to 1994, and its latest check-in finds — perhaps unsurprisingly — that Americans are more divided than ever.
"The fact that Republicans and Democrats differ on these fundamental issues is probably not a surprise, but the magnitude of the difference is striking, and particularly how the differences have grown in recent years and where they've grown," Carroll Doherty, Pew's director of political research and one of the authors of the study, told NPR.
Pew asked more than 5,000 respondents this summer about 10 specific political issues — ranging from government regulation and aid, same-sex marriage and environmental regulations — and found that, on average, there was a 36-point gap between Republicans and Democrats. That's a whopping 21-point increase since it began tracking those questions 23 years ago.
Partisanship has risen markedly since 2004, the year President Bush was re-elected, and has hit a new high.
Two decades before, there was about a 15-point gap between Republicans and Democrats on these issues, but it wasn't that much more pronounced than differences in race or religion.
Now, how you identify politically is — by far — the starkest divider of how Americans see certain issues.
The widest two gaps were on views about race and government aid to the poor. Overall, 41 percent of Americans said that racial discrimination is the reason black people struggle to get ahead, which is the highest mark in the survey's history; 49 percent, however, still said that African-Americans who couldn't advance were responsible for their own situation.
But broken down along party lines, there's a huge 50-point gap between how Republicans and Democrats see the issue — almost two-thirds (64 percent) of Democrats think some African Americans struggle to get ahead because of discrimination, while just 14 percent of Republicans think so.
Back in 1994, 39 percent of Democrats thought the same thing — a 25-point uptick — while just a quarter (24 percent) of Republicans thought so, a 12-point drop in the two decades since.
There's also a 47-point gap between Democrats who believe that government should do more to help the needy (71 percent) and Republicans, who agree with that statement (just 24 percent.) Democrats' belief that the government needs to do more to help is from 58 percent in 1994.
A minority of Republicans have held that belief, and even fewer do today than a decade ago. The percentage saying so has fallen 21 points since 2007.
On immigration, there's also a wide chasm between the parties — 84 percent of Democrats say immigrants have strengthened the country with their "hard work and talents."
That's a 52-point increase since 1994.
But the percentage of Republicans saying immigrants help the country is half that (42 percent). A plurality of Republicans (44 percent) believes immigrants are a burden, but that 42 percent is actually higher than in 1994 for Republicans.
There is evidence of a generational shift among Republicans on social issues. On issues like immigration and support for same-sex marriage, for example, there was more support among younger Republicans.
On immigration, for example, 62 percent of Republicans under 30 said immigrants strengthen the country (20 points higher than the GOP overall). Just 31 percent of Republicans 65 and older believed the same thing.
Majorities in both parties also now said that being gay should be accepted by society. But the margin is far wider among Democrats than Republicans — More than 4-in-5 (83 percent) Democrats said so, while just more than half (54 percent) of Republicans agreed. Because Democratic support has exploded, the gap between the two parties has actually gotten wider despite broader acceptance by people in both parties.
On other issues, like environmental regulations (and whether they have hurt the economy) and use of the military versus non-interventionism, the parties have also moved in very different directions over the past two decades.
Like on all the issues Pew tested, Doherty explained that with each party being pulled further into their corners, it's been harder for legislators in Washington to reach any type of middle-ground consensus.
SourceThe divide grows and will likely get far worse in the next decade. I've been watching the Ken Burns documentary on the Vietnam War lately, and it's astonishing how relevant the social challenges and debates are still echoing from the 60s and 70s to today, and how the roots of this polarization started there. The one that was the most poignant to me was the conflict between anti-war protestors and supporters of the military action where we pretty much got a repeat (or what we're repeating for a better description) of the debate we had in this thread over flag and anthem versus the right to protest your country, and whether you were a patriot or a Communist traitor. What I've been understanding over the years is that the U.S. is a nation that has yet to conclude their major positions for decades in comparison to most Western democracies, and no one is being satisfied. With this frustration they retreat further into their extremes. My frustration is that we didn't see it coming or thought we were beyond it because we didn't discuss these issues. These issues have been looming for a generation. I heard about the fear of the baby boomer's retirement for my entire childhood, but we didn't bother to prepare for it. We didn't even prepare for the debate about preparing for it. Police violence against blacks was a huge issue in the 1990s, but everyone just decided they solved it after that. I've been hearing about the fact that we have the largest prison population in the world since the early 2000, but nothing. Student loans for my entire life, nothing. Immigration, nothing. Get two decades of doing nothing beyond passing a single bill trying to reform healthcare and the population will get pissed. Recent polling showed that the majority of Americans fear retirement more than death.
In a democracy, even changes that are for the better are often unpopular, simply due to them being changes. This is a result of the aggregate effects of biases on human cognition. fixing things gets you voted out of office.
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On October 06 2017 01:45 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2017 01:19 zlefin wrote:
They aren't presented with such options becuase they aren't voting for the kind of people who work diligently and thoughtfully to fix problems in a rigorous manner. It's not like it's impossible to figure out how to fix such things; voters simply do not reward people for such. There's plenty of plausible options, the public just doesn't want to hear them, because they don't wnat to hear about policy. Honest question: who, after working 8 to 10 hours plus commute wants to think about what to do in the wake of automation instead of spending time with kids/loved ones/firends/hobbies? I suspect it's not that many, I certainly wouldn't put myself into that group. I have specific interests that I pursue politically form time to time but that doesn't cover even 10% of the most important questions of our time (number is random).
which is precisely one of the fundamental problems with democracy, it requires an investment of time that it is not worthwhile for an individual to spend; and that they often can't afford to spend.
and even if you spend some time, spending enough time to hvae a truly discerning opinion may not be possible. It takes a lot of expertise to really have useful thoughts on some things.
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On October 06 2017 01:41 brian wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2017 01:39 Velr wrote:
The discussion about these topics is just way more reasonable in most of europe, even when the results end up pretty similar like in the US.
Abortion is a big topic everywhere for some groups but its not a core issue except for some extremely conservative splinterparties. totally understand. but to frame it as a weird voter value isn’t right then. you have these same values right? if a mainstream party’s platform was outlawing abortions would you not suddenly find yourself with some weird values?
If not for the constant bitching about abortion, guns, homosexuality and more stuff like this i most likely wouldn't have a really specific stance on any of these. I would have the same opinion but i most likely would see people with another oppinion in a way better light.
Your circus show is actively hurting any attempt at reasonable discussion, solutions and compromise.
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On October 06 2017 01:41 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2017 01:17 Plansix wrote:
The voters are not presented with a path to fixing things, or even options. There is no agreement on the way forward, so no decisions can be made. There is no agreement on how voters disagree with each other. But when we see stuff like the dude getting primaried by someone who says homosexuality should be illegal, it is hard to say the voters have no place in this. When given choices, they went further off the deep end.
But look at his opponent. Luther Strange had a cloud hanging over his head since Gov. Bentley appointed him to the senate seat after Strange called for the delay of impeachment proceedings against the governor. Bad candidates lose to when they seem corrupt. Especially when the other side is someone who claims to be a champion of the people, in a era where no one likes congress.
That doesn't excuse voting for the shitbird, but it is easy to see why no one showed up to vote for Strange. People vote for candidates, not against the other one. Both parties need to figure that one out. And maybe reform their primary system.
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Norway28670 Posts
On October 06 2017 01:32 brian wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2017 01:31 Slydie wrote:On October 06 2017 01:19 zlefin wrote:
They aren't presented with such options becuase they aren't voting for the kind of people who work diligently and thoughtfully to fix problems in a rigorous manner. It's not like it's impossible to figure out how to fix such things; voters simply do not reward people for such. There's plenty of plausible options, the public just doesn't want to hear them, because they don't wnat to hear about policy. As a foreginer, there are some seriously weird up values among voters in the US too, like abortion, death penalty, police violence, gun control, healthcare "only for me" and more. Add to that the structral problems like campaign donations, opression of unions, education, industry lobbyists, the 2-party system, gerrymandering etc. and I believe: You are fucked. do you not have strong opinions on those ‘weird values?’
I think he meant to say that you guys have weird opinions on those particular issues. Which, from a european pov, regarding those particular issues, is true for like 40% of you guys.
It kinda feels like what happened is that democrats/young people/urbanites to a larger degree have adopted european values and republicans try to counter-balance by being even more staunchly traditional american.
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On October 06 2017 01:45 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2017 01:19 zlefin wrote:
They aren't presented with such options becuase they aren't voting for the kind of people who work diligently and thoughtfully to fix problems in a rigorous manner. It's not like it's impossible to figure out how to fix such things; voters simply do not reward people for such. There's plenty of plausible options, the public just doesn't want to hear them, because they don't wnat to hear about policy. Honest question: who, after working 8 to 10 hours plus commute wants to think about what to do in the wake of automation instead of spending time with kids/loved ones/firends/hobbies? I suspect it's not that many, I certainly wouldn't put myself into that group. I have specific interests that I pursue politically form time to time but that doesn't cover even 10% of the most important questions of our time (number is random).
You have cracked the code of elections. The population does not want to be entrenched in politics for 6 months to a year. In an ideal world, they want to tune in for 1-2 months, make their decision and move on. And that is how elections used to be. There was an era where the parties had a really hard time getting the networks to cover the conventions. It was pretty awesome, when politics was so boring that TV networks lost money covering it.
But now we have come full circle and covering politics is show business. Entertainment. It is off season sports. Red vs Blue. Left vs Right. And people treat it like that. People are now Republicans in the same fashion that my father is a Red Sox fan.
Every tried to get a Red Sox fan to cheer for the Yankees?
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On October 06 2017 01:48 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2017 01:41 brian wrote:On October 06 2017 01:39 Velr wrote:
The discussion about these topics is just way more reasonable in most of europe, even when the results end up pretty similar like in the US.
Abortion is a big topic everywhere for some groups but its not a core issue except for some extremely conservative splinterparties. totally understand. but to frame it as a weird voter value isn’t right then. you have these same values right? if a mainstream party’s platform was outlawing abortions would you not suddenly find yourself with some weird values? If not for the constant bitching about abortion, guns, homosexuality and more stuff like this i most likely wouldn't have a really specific stance on any of these. I would have the same opinion but i most likely would see people with another oppinion in a way better light. Your circus show is actively hurting any attempt at reasonable discussion, solutions and compromise.
so you would not feel pressured to vote against someone anti abortion and against the civil rights of gays?
red sox suck
On October 06 2017 01:50 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2017 01:32 brian wrote:On October 06 2017 01:31 Slydie wrote:On October 06 2017 01:19 zlefin wrote:
They aren't presented with such options becuase they aren't voting for the kind of people who work diligently and thoughtfully to fix problems in a rigorous manner. It's not like it's impossible to figure out how to fix such things; voters simply do not reward people for such. There's plenty of plausible options, the public just doesn't want to hear them, because they don't wnat to hear about policy. As a foreginer, there are some seriously weird up values among voters in the US too, like abortion, death penalty, police violence, gun control, healthcare "only for me" and more. Add to that the structral problems like campaign donations, opression of unions, education, industry lobbyists, the 2-party system, gerrymandering etc. and I believe: You are fucked. do you not have strong opinions on those ‘weird values?’ I think he meant to say that you guys have weird opinions on those particular issues. Which, from a european pov, regarding those particular issues, is true for like 40% of you guys. It kinda feels like what happened is that democrats/young people/urbanites to a larger degree have adopted european values and republicans try to counter-balance by being even more staunchly traditional american.
if that is the point i understand(and fully agree.) but he very clearly mentioned it as weird values for voters. and in my opinion it’s just not at all an odd thing to consider when voting.
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@drone
Nicely put.
Switzerland is a pretty conservative place but some of the american hot topics seem like they have fallen out of time.
@br
Pressured? No. I am actually mainly a social libertarian (trying to use an US term) so i am for such individual freedoms since forever. I became more and more leftist in my twenties because big companies/money is fucking everything up and i never was "against" the state. Small goverment is awesome, until you throw it at reality and realise you now have big pharma/finance running everything. I'll take the state over that any day.
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On October 06 2017 01:25 PhoenixVoid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2017 01:04 Plansix wrote:
Republicans And Democrats Don't Agree, Don't Like Each Other And It's Worse Than Ever
The partisan split in America is the highest it's been in two decades, with Republicans and Democrats holding vastly disparate views on race, immigration and the role of government, according to a new study from the Pew Research Center.
Pew has been measuring attitudes on policy issues and political values dating back to 1994, and its latest check-in finds — perhaps unsurprisingly — that Americans are more divided than ever.
"The fact that Republicans and Democrats differ on these fundamental issues is probably not a surprise, but the magnitude of the difference is striking, and particularly how the differences have grown in recent years and where they've grown," Carroll Doherty, Pew's director of political research and one of the authors of the study, told NPR.
Pew asked more than 5,000 respondents this summer about 10 specific political issues — ranging from government regulation and aid, same-sex marriage and environmental regulations — and found that, on average, there was a 36-point gap between Republicans and Democrats. That's a whopping 21-point increase since it began tracking those questions 23 years ago.
Partisanship has risen markedly since 2004, the year President Bush was re-elected, and has hit a new high.
Two decades before, there was about a 15-point gap between Republicans and Democrats on these issues, but it wasn't that much more pronounced than differences in race or religion.
Now, how you identify politically is — by far — the starkest divider of how Americans see certain issues.
The widest two gaps were on views about race and government aid to the poor. Overall, 41 percent of Americans said that racial discrimination is the reason black people struggle to get ahead, which is the highest mark in the survey's history; 49 percent, however, still said that African-Americans who couldn't advance were responsible for their own situation.
But broken down along party lines, there's a huge 50-point gap between how Republicans and Democrats see the issue — almost two-thirds (64 percent) of Democrats think some African Americans struggle to get ahead because of discrimination, while just 14 percent of Republicans think so.
Back in 1994, 39 percent of Democrats thought the same thing — a 25-point uptick — while just a quarter (24 percent) of Republicans thought so, a 12-point drop in the two decades since.
There's also a 47-point gap between Democrats who believe that government should do more to help the needy (71 percent) and Republicans, who agree with that statement (just 24 percent.) Democrats' belief that the government needs to do more to help is from 58 percent in 1994.
A minority of Republicans have held that belief, and even fewer do today than a decade ago. The percentage saying so has fallen 21 points since 2007.
On immigration, there's also a wide chasm between the parties — 84 percent of Democrats say immigrants have strengthened the country with their "hard work and talents."
That's a 52-point increase since 1994.
But the percentage of Republicans saying immigrants help the country is half that (42 percent). A plurality of Republicans (44 percent) believes immigrants are a burden, but that 42 percent is actually higher than in 1994 for Republicans.
There is evidence of a generational shift among Republicans on social issues. On issues like immigration and support for same-sex marriage, for example, there was more support among younger Republicans.
On immigration, for example, 62 percent of Republicans under 30 said immigrants strengthen the country (20 points higher than the GOP overall). Just 31 percent of Republicans 65 and older believed the same thing.
Majorities in both parties also now said that being gay should be accepted by society. But the margin is far wider among Democrats than Republicans — More than 4-in-5 (83 percent) Democrats said so, while just more than half (54 percent) of Republicans agreed. Because Democratic support has exploded, the gap between the two parties has actually gotten wider despite broader acceptance by people in both parties.
On other issues, like environmental regulations (and whether they have hurt the economy) and use of the military versus non-interventionism, the parties have also moved in very different directions over the past two decades.
Like on all the issues Pew tested, Doherty explained that with each party being pulled further into their corners, it's been harder for legislators in Washington to reach any type of middle-ground consensus.
SourceThe divide grows and will likely get far worse in the next decade. I've been watching the Ken Burns documentary on the Vietnam War lately, and it's astonishing how relevant the social challenges and debates are still echoing from the 60s and 70s to today, and how the roots of this polarization started there. The one that was the most poignant to me was the conflict between anti-war protestors and supporters of the military action where we pretty much got a repeat (or what we're repeating for a better description) of the debate we had in this thread over flag and anthem versus the right to protest your country, and whether you were a patriot or a Communist traitor. What I've been understanding over the years is that the U.S. is a nation that has yet to conclude their major positions for decades in comparison to most Western democracies, and no one is being satisfied. With this frustration they retreat further into their extremes.
I get a nagging feeling you refer to "has not yet [concluded] ... in comparison to most Western democracies" as in "the Left won, the right compromised." We're still in the fight; other countries of the West want to hold up the results of the victors in order to influence one side in the fight.
Some of this retreat into the extremes is expected based on ideological positions that don't reconcile well in compromise. 2nd amendment repeal vs retain, abort babies at mother's volition vs make illegal under most circumstances, and the list goes on. One side or both sides take the issue to the ballot box (or the courts) to win by crushing their political opposition legislatively (judicially). The loser vows to get them next time and the beat goes on. I think your characterization is misleading. It's not a nice little morality tale on other Western nations solving their differences and the US retreating to extremes. You are however right that the challenges and debates echo the 1960s, except with less actual debating.
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On October 06 2017 01:50 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2017 01:32 brian wrote:On October 06 2017 01:31 Slydie wrote:On October 06 2017 01:19 zlefin wrote:
They aren't presented with such options becuase they aren't voting for the kind of people who work diligently and thoughtfully to fix problems in a rigorous manner. It's not like it's impossible to figure out how to fix such things; voters simply do not reward people for such. There's plenty of plausible options, the public just doesn't want to hear them, because they don't wnat to hear about policy. As a foreginer, there are some seriously weird up values among voters in the US too, like abortion, death penalty, police violence, gun control, healthcare "only for me" and more. Add to that the structral problems like campaign donations, opression of unions, education, industry lobbyists, the 2-party system, gerrymandering etc. and I believe: You are fucked. do you not have strong opinions on those ‘weird values?’ I think he meant to say that you guys have weird opinions on those particular issues. Which, from a european pov, regarding those particular issues, is true for like 40% of you guys. It kinda feels like what happened is that democrats/young people/urbanites to a larger degree have adopted european values and republicans try to counter-balance by being even more staunchly traditional american.
My high school history teacher often told the class that New England was not like the rest of the US. It was more of a weird extension of the Europe and its values. That lesson has proven to be true, in my experience.
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On October 06 2017 01:53 Velr wrote:
Nicely put.
Switzerland is a pretty conservative place but some of the american hot topics seem like they have fallen out of time.
The problem with the US is that we are a nation of states, unlike every member of the EU. Just think if your country had to deal with the gun control laws of the least regulated member of the EU. If abortion laws in Ireland could come over and start to impact your laws. And with the endless efforts to weaken the grip of our federal goverment, we are all become subject to the least regulated of our states and their terrible decisions.
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EPT
