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On September 07 2017 22:10 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2017 22:07 Plansix wrote:
Bannon never fails to impress me with his shitty opinions. Well not to be brutally honest but he does have a point... Where were they when Trump was saying the outlandish things during the campaign and so on. Now it has the potential to hit their bottom line and suddenly it's personal. Still he is a piece of shit but a broken clock is right twice a day.
Here is the thing – The Catholic Church doesn’t care what country people go to church in. Churches can be built anywhere. This is just Bannon saying being the asshole he is.
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On September 07 2017 21:54 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2017 21:44 bo1b wrote:
Hard not to get annoyed with "toxic masculinity".
The reality of hormones having a different effect on different sexes should be pretty obvious yet being overly competitive is reduced to "toxic masculinity" instead of the proper name, which is being a dick.
It also seems to be a package deal with nice insidious things which overwhelmingly lead to the path of mediocrity, such as the often strawmanned "real men are strong". Again that has nothing to do with toxic masculinity. Its the cultural response to tell men not to share their feelings and to "tough out" things while burying anything negative with alcohol and basic emotional repression. I don't know what to tell you if you've never seen the bad things that happen to men beacuse of it.
This one hundred times over. Just think about the phrase 'man up' and where it is sometimes applied. Think about how men, usually as children, are encouraged to react to situations and what effect this can have.
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I'd argue thats no more the result of toxic masculinity then starving yourself as a teen age girl is the result of toxic femininity.
Stupidity is sex blind.
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Body image problems are imposed on girls by society, advertisements etc and by men who care so much about their looks. Sex sells because of men. And that is the root of the problem really.
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On September 07 2017 22:20 bo1b wrote:
I'd argue thats no more the result of toxic masculinity then starving yourself as a teen age girl is the result of toxic femininity.
Stupidity is sex blind.
But the woman doesn’t starve herself solely because women tell her to. Negative body image is created by a society that placed value on women based on appearance and tells them they are worthless if they are not attractive. And that all loops back to centuries of male dominated society.
That doesn’t mean we, as men, are at fault. It isn’t a judgment on us, since we did not decide to be born into this society. But it is the nature of the society we exist in.
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Amazing.
Out of interest, if underlying sexual selection in men has subliminally encouraged that behaviour in women, is it not possible that "manning up" hasn't been encouraged in a similar way from women? Or is this a one way street?
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On September 07 2017 22:28 bo1b wrote:
Amazing.
Revelations truly are.
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On September 07 2017 22:29 Artisreal wrote:Revelations truly are.
A strong word for what's currently going on in my mind.
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On September 07 2017 22:28 bo1b wrote:
Amazing.
Out of interest, if underlying sexual selection in men has subliminally encouraged that behaviour in women, is it not possible that "manning up" hasn't been encouraged in a similar way from women? Or is this a one way street?
Does admitting that men and women have entirely different engagements with power structures count as figuring things a "one way street?"
This isn't about blaming men or blaming women.
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On September 07 2017 22:35 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2017 22:28 bo1b wrote:
Amazing.
Out of interest, if underlying sexual selection in men has subliminally encouraged that behaviour in women, is it not possible that "manning up" hasn't been encouraged in a similar way from women? Or is this a one way street? Does admitting that men and women have entirely different engagements with power structures count as figuring things a "one way street?" This isn't about blaming men or blaming women.
It clearly is if basically all problems women face are caused by men, and all problems men face are also caused by men.
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On September 07 2017 22:28 bo1b wrote:
Amazing.
Out of interest, if underlying sexual selection in men has subliminally encouraged that behaviour in women, is it not possible that "manning up" hasn't been encouraged in a similar way from women? Or is this a one way street?
If you asking if women have any responsibility or fault in this, the answer is: yes, but only in ways that reinforce toxic masculinity. Women tearing down other women or attempting to enforce harmful gender norms to empower themselves is a way that women add to the problem. There were women who opposed the suffrage movement for their own gain, for instance. Women who said that marital rape wasn’t real.
Toxic masculinity harms everyone.
On September 07 2017 22:37 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2017 22:35 farvacola wrote:On September 07 2017 22:28 bo1b wrote:
Amazing.
Out of interest, if underlying sexual selection in men has subliminally encouraged that behaviour in women, is it not possible that "manning up" hasn't been encouraged in a similar way from women? Or is this a one way street? Does admitting that men and women have entirely different engagements with power structures count as figuring things a "one way street?" This isn't about blaming men or blaming women. It clearly is if basically all problems women face are caused by men, and all problems men face are also caused by men.
Toxic masculinity isn’t caused by men. It is our society favoring the most negative aspects of masculinity. And it has been happening from generation to generation. We didn’t cause it, we were born into. We don’t know a world where it didn’t dominate society.
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On September 07 2017 22:37 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2017 22:35 farvacola wrote:On September 07 2017 22:28 bo1b wrote:
Amazing.
Out of interest, if underlying sexual selection in men has subliminally encouraged that behaviour in women, is it not possible that "manning up" hasn't been encouraged in a similar way from women? Or is this a one way street? Does admitting that men and women have entirely different engagements with power structures count as figuring things a "one way street?" This isn't about blaming men or blaming women. It clearly is if basically all problems women face are caused by men, and all problems men face are also caused by men.
Which is not what anyone said.
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If that's what you've taken away from pages of discussion, you need to reread what has been said and consider why "basically all problems women face are caused by men" is literally irrelevant to what is being discussed. My guess is that you've done the typical "oh look, someone is shit talking a concept related to an identity attribute I consider important, best get offended, distort their discussion into a vulgar blame game, and then retreat once folks figure out I'm only posting because I don't like it when people seem to be downtalking the penis."
That's cute.
In case anyone isn't aware, being a man and ideas relative to being a man are not the same thing.
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On September 07 2017 22:37 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2017 22:35 farvacola wrote:On September 07 2017 22:28 bo1b wrote:
Amazing.
Out of interest, if underlying sexual selection in men has subliminally encouraged that behaviour in women, is it not possible that "manning up" hasn't been encouraged in a similar way from women? Or is this a one way street? Does admitting that men and women have entirely different engagements with power structures count as figuring things a "one way street?" This isn't about blaming men or blaming women. It clearly is if basically all problems women face are caused by men, and all problems men face are also caused by men.
They are caused by societal expectations of each gender.
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On September 07 2017 22:38 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2017 22:28 bo1b wrote:
Amazing.
Out of interest, if underlying sexual selection in men has subliminally encouraged that behaviour in women, is it not possible that "manning up" hasn't been encouraged in a similar way from women? Or is this a one way street? If you asking if women have any responsibility or fault in this, the answer is: yes, but only in ways that reinforce toxic masculinity. Women tearing down other women or attempting to enforce harmful gender norms to empower themselves is a way that women add to the problem. There were women who opposed the suffrage movement for their own gain, for instance. Women who said that marital rape wasn’t real. Toxic masculinity harms everyone.
Arguments like this are why people who think for even a second find modern feminism absolutely horrible. Have you seriously considered the statement of what you just said, and just how low you place women in the world compared to men?
It's a fairly horrible loop when the problems women cause are a result of toxic masculinity.
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An hour ago I said:
On September 07 2017 20:31 Plansix wrote:
Feminism addresses many of the problems facing men through the concept of toxic masculinity. Which is as harmful to men as it is to women. But it is often mischaracterized as an attack on men.
And it continues to hold true, even after being explained over and over.
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On September 07 2017 22:40 farvacola wrote:
If that's what you've taken away from pages of discussion, you need to reread what has been said and consider why "basically all problems women face are caused by men" is literally irrelevant to what is being discussed. My guess is that you've done the typical "oh look, someone is shit talking a concept related to an identity attribute I consider important, best get offended, distort their discussion into a vulgar blame game, and then retreat once folks figure out I'm only posting because I don't like it when people seem to be downtalking the penis."
That's cute.
In case anyone isn't aware, being a man and ideas relative to being a man are not the same thing.
I'm not offended at all, I'm bewildered.
Please make me out to be an offended out of control lunatic though.
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On September 07 2017 22:41 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2017 22:38 Plansix wrote:On September 07 2017 22:28 bo1b wrote:
Amazing.
Out of interest, if underlying sexual selection in men has subliminally encouraged that behaviour in women, is it not possible that "manning up" hasn't been encouraged in a similar way from women? Or is this a one way street? If you asking if women have any responsibility or fault in this, the answer is: yes, but only in ways that reinforce toxic masculinity. Women tearing down other women or attempting to enforce harmful gender norms to empower themselves is a way that women add to the problem. There were women who opposed the suffrage movement for their own gain, for instance. Women who said that marital rape wasn’t real. Toxic masculinity harms everyone. Arguments like this are why people who think for even a second find modern feminism absolutely horrible. Have you seriously considered the statement of what you just said, and just how low you place women in the world compared to men? It's a fairly horrible loop when the problems women cause are a result of toxic masculinity.
I have thought about it a lot and find your statement to be wildly incorrect and barely related to my statement.
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Can someone define for me exactly what 'toxic masculinity' is?
Whenever I've seen it used its been as a way of making someone feel better about their lack of masculinity.
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On September 07 2017 22:41 Plansix wrote:An hour ago I said: Show nested quote +On September 07 2017 20:31 Plansix wrote:
Feminism addresses many of the problems facing men through the concept of toxic masculinity. Which is as harmful to men as it is to women. But it is often mischaracterized as an attack on men. And it continues to hold true, even after being explained over and over.
A blanket catch all statement does not prevent an argument from being ridiculous. I honestly think you're attacking women far more then men. They have agency too, you know.
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EPT
