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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-07 12:20:48
September 07 2017 12:20 GMT
#173421
Driving down the main commercial artery in Muncie, Ind., it seems the job market is doing well. The local unemployment rate stands at 3.8 percent, and there are hiring signs posted outside the McDonald's, a pizza joint and at stop lights.

Around 2007 — the last time the market was so tight — job applicants came streaming through the offices of Express Employment Professionals, a staffing agency that screens and places about 120 workers a month, mostly at the local manufacturing firms.

"Even with the low unemployment rates that we had at that time, there were still plenty of applicants," says Express' owner, Nate Miller. "Now, we're down to that 3 to 4 percent unemployment throughout all of Indiana, but there's very few applicants, and the question is: Where did they go?"

Where did they go? That is a big question for economists from Federal Reserve Chair Janet Yellen on down. Nearly all working-age men aged 24 to 54 were in the labor force through the 1950s and '60s. Now that rate is 88.5 percent.

Demographic changes such as the retirement of baby boomers and a tendency to stay in school longer explain part of the trend. But increasingly, the Fed and Goldman Sachs have said in various reports that they believe opioid addiction might be a factor.

Miller agrees. Employers tell him they could build and sell more, if they could hire and keep more workers, but his staffing business can't keep up because a third of job applicants fail the pre-employment drug test — these days, almost always for opioids.

"We know employers who just don't want to know," Miller says. " 'Don't drug test them, we don't want to know.' It's not necessarily the best practice, but it is something that they do because they need people, and they need them so badly."

Muncie is home to agriculture and manufacturing, but also has Ball State University and a big hospital, which are also major employers.

People here trace today's opioid problem — both pain pills and heroin — back a couple of years. They say it seems to hit people harder, across more walks of life, than the methamphetamine boom did several years back. More so than other drugs, those who got hooked on opioids say it leaves them too tired or dope sick to function.

For employers, like metal parts maker Mursix Corp., dealing with it can be both painful and necessary.

Two years ago, some of the company's 300 employees were caught dealing drugs on the factory floor.

At the time, the company hoped to expand. Instead, Susan Carlock, co-owner and vice president of business development for Mursix, says the company had to focus on establishing new procedures for drug testing, hiring, treatment and dismissal.

"We have ... overseas companies that are coming to us for us to be a supplier to them, and their No. 1 question is workforce — and sober workforce," she says.

Carlock says opioids are both directly and indirectly hurting productivity. There were employees who used heroin and nodded off at work, and others who needed time off for opioid-related family emergencies.

The company's zero-tolerance drug policy, she says, is still a balancing act. Because so many job applicants have drug-related records, the company has had to consider looking past some crimes.

"We are a victim of the lack of workforce in this community, and we've had to — I don't want to say lower or bend our standards — but we've re-evaluated," Carlock says.

Alcohol abuse is more prevalent and its health effects ultimately more lethal, but opioids can kill you quicker. And because workplace injuries are often a gateway to painkiller abuse, opioids are closely tied to workforce problems. According to the National Safety Council and the NORC research group at the University of Chicago, opioid users miss twice as many days of work as people with addictions to other drugs.

And an untold number of opioid users don't work at all.

I meet Shon Byrum at a diner that no longer serves spoons so people can't use them to cook heroin in the bathroom, where the restaurant also keeps a needle deposit box.

Byrum, 34, grew up in Winchester, Ind., just outside of Muncie, and is now the town's mayor. He says he worries about an economic vicious cycle, one where more people find it more lucrative to sell opioids than take a starting or mid-level job. That, in turn, makes recruitment for companies harder. One manufacturer, he says, found a workaround.

"They are investing in their plant and $5.5 million worth of mechanical arms to take the place of entry-level workers, because they cannot keep them," Byrum says. "They're failing drug tests, or they don't show up."

Byrum doesn't want to lose any more legitimate jobs. So he's working to open new drug treatment centers in town — not just for public health, but also to foster a reliable workforce so employers can stick around.

Fewer of them are. Muncie lost its last big manufacturer, BorgWarner, in 2007.

Michael Hicks, who directs the Center for Business and Economic Research at Ball State, says when employers leave, they take higher-skilled and educated talent with them. "And that necessarily leaves behind people with fewer choices, less exposure to starting their own business or going off to college," he says.

The people who remain are also more susceptible to economic trouble and, perhaps, addiction. Hicks estimates roughly 1.5 percent of Muncie's workers are neither working nor looking for work, because of opioids. That may seem like a small amount, he says. "But with an unemployment rate of 4 percent, that means one out of every four people who might otherwise be applying for a job are out of the labor force."

Moreover, Hicks says, the aftereffects will likely linger for at least a generation. "What we're really worried about should be a long-term effect of people who are bounced entirely out of a productive life because of this addiction in their late teens and early 20s, and then never have a chance to recover," he says.

For those in recovery, employers like Richard Gill want to offer second chances. He co-owns Gills Brothers Furniture, a 50-year-old family business. A couple of departures and an opioid-related dismissal left him severely short-staffed.

"I have been running a forklift for the last two days at our warehouse, so I literally took a shower before I came to this interview," he tells me.

If it were easier, Gill says he would love to expand and hire.

"By all means we want to hire younger workers," he says. "They have more energy, they have better backs, but it is difficult to find them."


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18832 Posts
September 07 2017 12:22 GMT
#173422
I mean, if you're a poor dude out of Elkhart and you need to choose between 1) slinging McMuffins at McDonalds in the morning and working a second job in the evening or 2) working 2-3 days a week selling oxies while making 4-5 times more, the choice isn't exactly an easy one.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10764 Posts
September 07 2017 12:23 GMT
#173423
There are pre-employment drugtests? WTF? Is this normal?
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-07 12:26:32
September 07 2017 12:23 GMT
#173424
m4-machismo roughly translates into exaggerated masculinity, so I'm not sure the distinction makes all that much sense. English doesn't have a good equivalent to the above dichotomy, so folks are in the right when the use the term masculinity to reference particular kinds of "bad" manliness" imo

Edit: It's worth noting that many of the most polemic and useless gender theorists try to float the idea that masculinity is conceptually dangerous in essence; this is where the criticism ought lie.


Possible that my associations with "toxic" and me translating everything into my mother tongue changes the "nuances" a bit.

I certainly disagree with the latter part, masculinity has no inherent reference to the "bad part of manliness". That's why other languages have an actual description for it. In fact, even in english, the term "Macho" (or "Pascha" in germany, not sure if that's in english as well - think that has russian roots turkish roots) is not unheard of. But i guess that's semantics.
On track to MA1950A.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18832 Posts
September 07 2017 12:26 GMT
#173425
Macho in the English sense doesn't carry nearly enough syntactic weight to figure as an English equivalent to its Spanish counterpart; here in the US, macho mostly means Randy Savage and a Village People song, not a cultural strain of aggressive masculinity.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
September 07 2017 12:28 GMT
#173426
On September 07 2017 21:23 Velr wrote:
There are pre-employment drugtests? WTF? Is this normal?

Very much so for entry level work in the US. Theres also random drug tests at a lot of companies. I think it is less common for higher positions but I'm not totally sure.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
September 07 2017 12:30 GMT
#173427
On September 07 2017 21:23 Velr wrote:
There are pre-employment drugtests? WTF? Is this normal?

in the US this is normal and quite common. (once it gets to the point where they'll hire you if you pass them)
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-07 12:33:38
September 07 2017 12:32 GMT
#173428
On September 07 2017 21:26 farvacola wrote:
Macho in the English sense doesn't carry nearly enough syntactic weight to figure as an English equivalent to its Spanish counterpart; here in the US, macho mostly means Randy Savage and a Village People song, not a cultural strain of aggressive masculinity.


That's what i meant by changing the nuances.

It's not a purely spanish equivalent btw. Macho in germany generally has a rather negative connotation.

In regards to the drug tests, i'm surprised that people go "wtf" by it. I do understand that many countries don't have them (UK/Germany are the ones that i know of) - but i actually don't think it's a bad thing? Not that i gave it too much thought, but i don't really see a problem with it.
On track to MA1950A.
Kickboxer
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Slovenia1308 Posts
September 07 2017 12:41 GMT
#173429
Not letting qualified people work for you because they smoke weed is neither smart nor productive. Especially since alcohol testing isn't a thing.

Opiates are another issue, sure. But I know a hell of a lot talented productive people who smoke the mary jane on a daily basis.
Godwrath
Profile Joined August 2012
Spain10131 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-07 12:49:44
September 07 2017 12:43 GMT
#173430
It also has that connotation on spanish. I understand farv is talking about latin-american countries, but if i am not mistaken, it's the same there, gender violence is described as "violencia machista".

Machismo = Sexism, they pretty much interchangeable except it's normally used to label men or their actions. Being a macho can have different connotations regarding to the culture behind, but machismo is never seen representative of honourable traits.
bo1b
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
Australia12814 Posts
September 07 2017 12:44 GMT
#173431
Hard not to get annoyed with "toxic masculinity".

The reality of hormones having a different effect on different sexes should be pretty obvious yet being overly competitive is reduced to "toxic masculinity" instead of the proper name, which is being a dick.

It also seems to be a package deal with nice insidious things which overwhelmingly lead to the path of mediocrity, such as the often strawmanned "real men are strong".
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
September 07 2017 12:49 GMT
#173432
On September 07 2017 21:41 Kickboxer wrote:
Not letting qualified people work for you because they smoke weed is neither smart nor productive. Especially since alcohol testing isn't a thing.

Opiates are another issue, sure. But I know a hell of a lot talented productive people who smoke the mary jane on a daily basis.


That has nothing to do with the drug test, but with how you use it.

As you said: opiates are another issue. The problem you're talking about is the social stigma of smoking weed, which is a different can of worms.

Btw, i think the problem with "alcohol testing" is that you actually can't test for it - because alcohol gets flushed out of the system rather quickly (not entirely, but the methods to test for "long time exposure" are quite complicated iirc), where as you can have someone piss on a stick to find out if he smoked weed two weeks ago.

I certainly would test for alcoholism too, depending on the job we're talking about.
On track to MA1950A.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13990 Posts
September 07 2017 12:54 GMT
#173433
On September 07 2017 21:44 bo1b wrote:
Hard not to get annoyed with "toxic masculinity".

The reality of hormones having a different effect on different sexes should be pretty obvious yet being overly competitive is reduced to "toxic masculinity" instead of the proper name, which is being a dick.

It also seems to be a package deal with nice insidious things which overwhelmingly lead to the path of mediocrity, such as the often strawmanned "real men are strong".

Again that has nothing to do with toxic masculinity. Its the cultural response to tell men not to share their feelings and to "tough out" things while burying anything negative with alcohol and basic emotional repression. I don't know what to tell you if you've never seen the bad things that happen to men beacuse of it.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 07 2017 13:07 GMT
#173434


Bannon never fails to impress me with his shitty opinions.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
September 07 2017 13:08 GMT
#173435
On September 07 2017 21:07 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:

Well shit, that's going to be a disaster.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
September 07 2017 13:09 GMT
#173436
On September 07 2017 21:23 Velr wrote:
There are pre-employment drugtests? WTF? Is this normal?

Yes, for most jobs it is. You pee in a cup in a lab and they analyze it for stuff.

Generally little more than a formality but if any individual company didn't do it they would have a problem of adverse selection.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21798 Posts
September 07 2017 13:10 GMT
#173437
On September 07 2017 22:07 Plansix wrote:

Bannon never fails to impress me with his shitty opinions.

Has the tried reading the bible and its opinion on helping people?

It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
September 07 2017 13:10 GMT
#173438
On September 07 2017 22:07 Plansix wrote:
https://twitter.com/DaviSusan/status/905775858484379648

Bannon never fails to impress me with his shitty opinions.


Well not to be brutally honest but he does have a point... Where were they when Trump was saying the outlandish things during the campaign and so on. Now it has the potential to hit their bottom line and suddenly it's personal.

Still he is a piece of shit but a broken clock is right twice a day.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3188 Posts
September 07 2017 13:13 GMT
#173439
On September 07 2017 21:49 m4ini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2017 21:41 Kickboxer wrote:
Not letting qualified people work for you because they smoke weed is neither smart nor productive. Especially since alcohol testing isn't a thing.

Opiates are another issue, sure. But I know a hell of a lot talented productive people who smoke the mary jane on a daily basis.


That has nothing to do with the drug test, but with how you use it.

As you said: opiates are another issue. The problem you're talking about is the social stigma of smoking weed, which is a different can of worms.

Btw, i think the problem with "alcohol testing" is that you actually can't test for it - because alcohol gets flushed out of the system rather quickly (not entirely, but the methods to test for "long time exposure" are quite complicated iirc), where as you can have someone piss on a stick to find out if he smoked weed two weeks ago.

I certainly would test for alcoholism too, depending on the job we're talking about.

Pretty much. The tests in their current form are kinda a weird accident - iirc they were developed by the Department of Transportation as a way to prove employees weren't currently under the influence. For something like alcohol, the amount in your blood directly relates to the degree to which you're currently drunk, so if there was a bunch in your system you could conclude the person was under the influence. DoT wanted the test for when an employee got in an accident, for instance, and they wanted to make sure it wasn't because they were drunk or high or something. Seems fair enough.

But a lot of drugs don't have such a straight-forward relationship between blood or urine levels and the degree to which you're still under the influence. Weed in particular stays in your system for a really unpredictable amount of time - sometimes someone quits smoking for two weeks prior and still fails, other times they take a break for a few days and pass just fine. At any rate for weed, the test doesn't identify people high at work specifically, it just identifies habitual users.

That's where things get weird to me. Employers would rather have non-weed smoking employees, all else being equal. They'd probably prefer non-drinkers and such too, but they don't have a way to achieve that. This they can achieve easily. Even better, if a weed smoker is competent and has self-control they'll be more likely to be able to pass the test, meaning that drug testing selects for the more competent and responsible drug users.

Personally I don't smoke, so I get an advantage from this when I look for jobs; when I interviewed at my current company the job was apparently only open because the last guy failed his test. Even so I think it's gross for employers to be able to say "we don't care if it's legal, we don't want you to do it" in general. If I'm not at work, why should they have any right to tell me what to do?

At my company, they can technically surprise drug test at any time, although rumor has it they won't. My old boss told me that a while back someone in HR was trying to start doing tests on current employees, and he told her if they did that they'd need to find replacements for ~1/3 of our workers, and she backed off. So at least some levels of management are aware that many current employees do drugs, and yet we still drug test new employees and we're still officially a "drug-free workplace."
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18832 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-07 13:14:39
September 07 2017 13:14 GMT
#173440
On September 07 2017 22:10 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2017 22:07 Plansix wrote:
https://twitter.com/DaviSusan/status/905775858484379648

Bannon never fails to impress me with his shitty opinions.


Well not to be brutally honest but he does have a point... Where were they when Trump was saying the outlandish things during the campaign and so on. Now it has the potential to hit their bottom line and suddenly it's personal.

Still he is a piece of shit but a broken clock is right twice a day.

That incoherence has more to do with Cardinal Dolan than the Catholic Church generally, though both are not immune from criticism, obviously. Dolan runs the US Catholic Church like an idiot and should be gone.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
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