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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

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PoulsenB
Profile Joined June 2011
Poland7731 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-07 11:21:25
September 07 2017 11:19 GMT
#173401
Beautiful women obviously do get attention from men (although I believe the amount of said attention or "fawning" depends heavily on cultural background and particular situations), and some use it for taking advantage of others and getting ahead in life - this is normal, people will use their advantages if they have them. However women also get a lot of unwanted attention from men, ranging from catcalling to sexual harassment and in extreme cases, rape. Saying that beauty only gives women advantages in the society is basically sugarcoating the issue. Furthermore, one could argue that women are forced to take care of themselves and their appearance, since if they're considered ugly or unattractive they will lose the male attention and the many (supposed) advantages over men (but if they do take care of themeselves, they will be accused of using their looks to get undeserved profits in life - "damned if you do, damned if you don't"). Also, male looks do matter, people generally are more ready to trust and like people who are attractive, well dressed, etc. regardless of gender; if the looks didn't matter for men, they would not dress up, shave etc. for job interviews and similar occasions.
IdrA fan forever <3 || the clueless one || Marci must be protected at all costs
Kickboxer
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Slovenia1308 Posts
September 07 2017 11:22 GMT
#173402
Also, I don't think anyone has the right to "tell" women what to do, or what to want. This answers quite a few of your questions. Still, I think women are at least on a fully equal footing with men in our society at this point, and are brutally privileged in all matters concerning divorce and children.

I also have a very loaded, slightly satirical question: what do you think would happen to the wage gap should prostitution be legal all over the West (I see absolutely no reason it shouldn't be), and if the stigma and "slut-shaming" were entirely removed from the practice (as certain feminists seem to want)?
Kickboxer
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Slovenia1308 Posts
September 07 2017 11:24 GMT
#173403
On September 07 2017 20:19 PoulsenB wrote:
Also, male looks do matter, people generally are more ready to trust and like people who are attractive, well dressed, etc. regardless of gender; if the looks didn't matter for men, they would not dress up, shave etc. for job interviews and similar occasions.


Yes, I was unclear on that. I stated several pages ago that I consider looks to be a very powerful privilege, and this goes for both genders, certainly. Having charisma just makes it ridiculously easier to make a good impression on people, no matter what's coming out of your mouth.

But I still think female beauty is a completely disproportionate "force", to a degree that is really obvious. We even have well-paid jobs where women do nothing but stand around and look pretty.
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28747 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-07 11:26:40
September 07 2017 11:26 GMT
#173404
Mr.Puppers,

Genuine and slightly nitpicky question; isn't more money spent on female health care because they live longer? I have not seen data on this, but I assume you have as you cite it - I'd guess that more money is spent on men who live until they are 90 than on men who live until they're 75. Is more money spent on women who live until they are 75 than with men who live until they're 75?

Aside from that, I agree with lots of what you say. Part of me thinks feminism is a dangerous misnomer because while gender equality used to be equated with advancing female rights, it should now be about advancing female or male rights depending on the issue in question. And probably, in some areas, we should accept that there are differences as well, although I never want to hear this as a justification of 'girls or guys shouldn't do/say/act like this'.
Moderator
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-07 11:37:46
September 07 2017 11:31 GMT
#173405
Feminism addresses many of the problems facing men through the concept of toxic masculinity. Which is as harmful to men as it is to women. But it is often mischaracterized as an attack on men.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Kickboxer
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Slovenia1308 Posts
September 07 2017 11:36 GMT
#173406
Please god don't start with "toxic masculinity"... I'm going to lose it.

There is absolutely nothing toxic about being masculine. Nothing. You can be a jerk, or an asshole, or a bully, none of which are consequences of "masculinity". Masculinity, if you're a man, is a virtue you should aspire to.

I guess our definitions of masculinity vary tremendously and I don't even want to get into this debate. But hearing the term "toxic masculinity" seriously triggers me.

Please, believe me, women don't want you to be effeminate. They want a man who can get his hands dirty, is willing to take risks, and will slap a bastard who deserves it.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 07 2017 11:41 GMT
#173407
I'm driving in a moment, but your misunderstand toxic masculinity. It is the destructive parts of masculinity, let telling men that feelings and going to therapy makes them weak.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28747 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-07 11:44:50
September 07 2017 11:44 GMT
#173408
On September 07 2017 20:36 Kickboxer wrote:
Please god don't start with "toxic masculinity"... I'm going to lose it.

There is absolutely nothing toxic about being masculine. Nothing. You can be a jerk, or an asshole, or a bully, none of which are consequences of "masculinity". Masculinity, if you're a man, is a virtue you should aspire to.

I guess our definitions of masculinity vary tremendously and I don't even want to get into this debate. But hearing the term "toxic masculinity" seriously triggers me.

Please, believe me, women don't want you to be effeminate. They want a man who can get his hands dirty, is willing to take risks, and will slap a bastard who deserves it.


Imo, the final part of your final sentence validates the term you spend the rest of the post arguing against. Toxic masculinity is not saying that being masculine is toxic, it's rather describing how certain traits associated with masculinity are negative traits and that these traits should not be embraced as part of some positive masculinity umbrella. A penchant for violence guised as 'just being a real man' is about an as perfect illustration of this as possible.
Moderator
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
September 07 2017 11:46 GMT
#173409
In south Texas, this was going to be one of the best years farmers had seen in a while. The cotton crop was projected to bring in record prices and even clear out many families' debts. But the massive rainfall, winds and a slow drying-out process from Harvey have left many farmers overwhelmed and worried.

That includes people like Dave Murrell, whom I meet at AL-T's Seafood and Steakhouse, a Cajun restaurant in Winnie, Texas, a rural town about an hour east of Houston. The place is packed, even though lunchtime has long come and gone. No one is in a hurry to get back to their fields — they can't. They're flooded. Murrell says nearly 400 acres of his rice are totally submerged.

"There is not much we can do," says Murrell. "We are still waiting for the water to go down so [that] by road we can get into these fields. Our roads cross a gulley out at the farm and the water is still too deep for us to get through it."

Luckily, Murrell had just harvested some of his rice before Harvey dumped nearly 50 inches here. But fourth-generation cattle and rice farmer Gerald Bauer decided to bring his cows in first, then cut his rice crop. Unfortunately, he says, he miscalculated by one week. In "a normal year, we're fine," he says. "But Mother Nature decided we were late this year."

Adam Leger, who runs an aerial fumigation service with his brother, says they won't know for weeks if any of their equipment is salvageable. Four of his crop dusters are under water at the local airport.

"I've never seen it — nothing like this," Leger says. "I don't think anybody in here has seen it."

It will take months, maybe even a full year, to get final figures on Texas' agricultural losses to Harvey. But Gene Hall of the Texas Farm Bureau says he's done some back-of-the-envelope calculations. Roughly, Hall says just looking at cotton, Texas's No. 2 product, farmers lost at least a fifth of the crop.

"We think that it could be as much as $135 million" in cotton losses, he says.

And Hall says for rice farmers, 20 percent of their crops are still stuck in the ground.

Rice farmer John Gaulding pulls on tall rubber boats up to his knees to get through the water – about 8 inches tall — still filling his fields in Hamshire, Texas, about 9 miles outside of Winnie. At its worst, he says, the water was as high as 30-36 inches.

Gaulding, who's 71 and took over the rice business from his father, faces a frustrating situation. Rice stalks sit atop his plants, ready for harvest. With each passing day, though, the kernels get drier and drier, while the bottom of the plant remains flooded — too wet to bring in any machinery.

"The sad thing is that out of all the fields we've harvested, this is a new variety to us and it had the potential to be our highest-yielding," Gaulding says.

And unlike other rice producers who will plant a second crop later in the year, Gaulding farms crawfish on this field. The small crustaceans burrowed into the ground to hibernate. He won't know whether they survived and will reemerge until next spring, possibly adding to his losses.

Farmers in Texas say they feel like the rural families and businesses have been forgotten in the rush to help the cities, especially Houston. They're even more worried they'll be left behind as attention turns to south Florida and Hurricane Irma's likely arrival in a few days.

Right now everyone here is just trying to be patient, like Marcia Bauer, who owns Texas Salt Grass, the local feed store in Winnie. She says half of her monthly income is from credit she gives out.

"And it's not just me that is being affected. Because we are such a small rural community, a lot of the businesses carry the farmers," Bauer says.

She sent out her statements the day before the town flooded. Hopefully, she says, the farmers finally got her bill — now that mail service is back up and running.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
PM_ME_NICE_PUPPERS
Profile Joined September 2017
Pakistan51 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-07 11:49:13
September 07 2017 11:47 GMT
#173410
On September 07 2017 20:26 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Mr.Puppers,

Genuine and slightly nitpicky question; isn't more money spent on female health care because they live longer? I have not seen data on this, but I assume you have as you cite it - I'd guess that more money is spent on men who live until they are 90 than on men who live until they're 75. Is more money spent on women who live until they are 75 than with men who live until they're 75?



That's actually a good point. If you look at punctual examples, like looking how much money is allocated to breast cancer (almost exclusively female (t)issue) vs. colorectal / prostate cancers (almost exclusively male problem), the issue becomes a bit clearer. Not that think this is due to anti-male sexism, it's just that boobs are a more palatable concern than colons.

When it comes to spending as vs. age, consider that just a hundred years ago, the life expectancy gap was around two years, whilst now it is five years, while both men and women grew fatter at pretty much the same rate (women are fatter in the US, men are fatter in Europe).
Kickboxer
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Slovenia1308 Posts
September 07 2017 11:48 GMT
#173411
So if someone is harassing your woman, or physically threatening your child, slapping them is somehow wrong? I see no problem with justified violence. I think any man is better off being fit and refusing to be a victim in a threatening situation. The world is a dangerous place.

But like I said, I don't want this debate. The definitions we hold are likely all over the place, the terms are loaded and again ambiguous, and then, I'm also old enough to understand people are actually different, and some live in what we could fairly describe as alternate realities.
Artisreal
Profile Joined June 2009
Germany9235 Posts
September 07 2017 11:50 GMT
#173412
On September 07 2017 20:48 Kickboxer wrote:
So if someone is harassing your woman, or physically threatening your child, slapping them is somehow wrong? I see no problem with justified violence. I think any man is better off being fit and refusing to be a victim in a threatening situation. The world is a dangerous place.

But like I said, I don't want this debate. The definitions we hold are likely all over the place, the terms are loaded and again ambiguous, and then, I'm also old enough to understand people are actually different, and some live in what we could fairly describe as alternate realities.

God bless this is important!
passive quaranstream fan
PM_ME_NICE_PUPPERS
Profile Joined September 2017
Pakistan51 Posts
September 07 2017 11:50 GMT
#173413
On September 07 2017 20:41 Plansix wrote:
I'm driving in a moment, but your misunderstand toxic masculinity. It is the destructive parts of masculinity, let telling men that feelings and going to therapy makes them weak.


It's also, apparently, explaining things and sitting comfortably in trains.
PoulsenB
Profile Joined June 2011
Poland7731 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-07 11:59:53
September 07 2017 11:56 GMT
#173414
From what I've read and seen about actual feminism, it's basically about letting everyone being able to be who they want, without social stigma or pressure based on stereotypes or tradition. For example: girls who want to play football of play with toy cars and soldiers should be able to do so without being called "tomboys" or hearing that these things are "for boys", and similarly, a boy who wants to play with dolls should be able to do so without being ridiculed as "girly" or "not masculine". Everyone, regardless of gender, should be given the same opportunities and the right to chose for themselves, without being shoehorned into pre-determined roles. Feminism doesn't say that all women should focus on career instead of being mothers/housewives; rather, it says a person should be free to chose which path they want to pursue without being stigmatised for their choice, by anyone.
IdrA fan forever <3 || the clueless one || Marci must be protected at all costs
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28747 Posts
September 07 2017 12:03 GMT
#173415
My rule of thumb is that violence is virtually always wrong if it ups the stakes, but self-defense is obviously fair enough. Either way, the term toxic masculinity would refer to the type of violence where it's not absolutely necessary, where rather than slapping a guy for groping your gf in a club, you punch a guy in the face for smiling towards her. And to expand on the point plan6 was making, while it's obviously a positive trait to not be hysterical in the face of mild adversity, it becomes negative if your wife dies from cancer and you self-medicate through alcohol rather than talk about the sadness and loneliness you feel.

Toxic masculinity specifically refers to masculinity that's unbalanced, kinda like Aristotelian virtues. Like, courage is associated with masculinity, and it's better to be courageous than to be a coward. But it's not a virtue if it results in you walking up to a group of 20 drunk hooligans telling them that they are cunts. Same principle.
Moderator
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
September 07 2017 12:07 GMT
#173416
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Artisreal
Profile Joined June 2009
Germany9235 Posts
September 07 2017 12:10 GMT
#173417
Or that fucking 20 women per month is the minimum for being a true man.
Or that the man has to earn more than his wife/gf to be a true man.
Man would I be happy to go part time and do voluntary work.

Btw the most obvious reason why men are worse off in a divorce is because the woman did 60 hours of unpaid work that doesn't contribute to the pension in any way so the man can come home to clean house, happy kids and a set table.

There's lots of bullshit that, in my opinion, shouldn't be the yardstick in a modern society because it just homogenizes everyone into the same schematic and leaves no freedom for living a life.
Much like we don't do a work eat sleep repeat job anymore that hardly allows us to see family and friends, stereotypes about men and women are not necessarily the way both want to live and thus deserve to be questioned. Not implying everyone who finds him or herself in that framework is an idiot and anachronistic.
passive quaranstream fan
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-07 12:15:04
September 07 2017 12:12 GMT
#173418
I feel like people inflate "masculinity" with other things. In drones examples, the first guy isn't "masculine", but "insecure". The second one is not "courage", but "stupidity".

I kinda am opposed to that concept of calling things "toxic masculinity" if they, quite obviously, have different roots.

What you're talking about isn't "toxic masculinity" but "machismo". It's a rather important distinction to make, imho.

Btw the most obvious reason why men are worse off in a divorce is because the woman did 60 hours of unpaid work that doesn't contribute to the pension in any way so the man can come home to clean house, happy kids and a set table.


Because that's how every household works. It's almost funny that you assume that men are generally worse off because generally the wife cleans the house, has the kids happy and cooks dinner.

Needless to say that this is baseless at best.
On track to MA1950A.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18855 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-07 12:18:24
September 07 2017 12:14 GMT
#173419
In Latin America, young men are encouraged to celebrate their masculinity a la caballerosidad and not machismo, as the former tends to denote the "good" parts of masculine duty (honor, courtesy, devotion) whereas the latter the bad (territorial jealousy, possessiveness, short temper).

m4-machismo roughly translates into exaggerated masculinity, so I'm not sure the distinction makes all that much sense. English doesn't have a good equivalent to the above dichotomy, so folks are in the right when the use the term masculinity to reference particular kinds of "bad" manliness" imo

Edit: It's worth noting that many of the most polemic and useless gender theorists try to float the idea that masculinity is conceptually dangerous in essence; this is where the criticism ought lie.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28747 Posts
September 07 2017 12:18 GMT
#173420
You can disagree with my examples all you want, maybe they're not perfect, but the point is either way that toxic masculinity by no means refers to fixing a broken sink.
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