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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Wulfey_LA
Profile Joined April 2017
932 Posts
August 11 2017 03:10 GMT
#167301
The Trump/Pence infrastructure plan sounds like a mix between Robocop and 90's era Russia privatization. Good thing that plan need 60 senate votes (or even 50) and requires an enormous amount of planning and attention to detail. All things DJT doesn't have.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-11 03:12:13
August 11 2017 03:11 GMT
#167302
On August 11 2017 12:06 mozoku wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 11 2017 11:18 Plansix wrote:
The worst sort of rich people.

I don't understand this at all. What does rich have to do with it? You don't think a ton of poor people would do the same if they had the means? This is the sort of class/identity warfare that is meaningless and totally unnecessary.

If I said "the worst sort of black people", "the worst sort of women", "the worst sort of poor people", "the worst sort of immigrant", etc., I'd have holy hell to pay in terms of angry rhetoric. It seems it's only troubling to use this sort of language when it's against the Left's political opponent groups.

Here's a neat fact: rich people aren't all immoral, evil goons out to screw the little guy. Most of them are pretty good people (just like most of all people are).

It isn't exclusive to you btw, so I'm a little sorry for picking on you here. I made a similar rant against KwarK's use of the phrase "Wall Street mentality" a while ago.

Are you doing some performance art as a special snowflake? That is the thing that offends you? There is a qualifier showing that it isn't all rich people and everything. You have to really be looking to be offended to pick that as the thing that rustles your jimmies. You have to want it bad.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Artesimo
Profile Joined February 2015
Germany546 Posts
August 11 2017 03:15 GMT
#167303
On August 11 2017 11:13 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
A ray of good news in this end shit times this country and possibly the world is living in right now.

Show nested quote +
A California court has ordered a Silicon Valley billionaire to restore access to a beloved beach that he closed off for his private use, a major victory for public lands advocates who have been fighting the venture capitalist for years.

An appeals court ruled Thursday that Vinod Khosla, who runs the venture capital firm Khosla Ventures and co-founded the tech company Sun Microsystems, must unlock the gates to Martins Beach in northern California by his property.

The decision is a major blow to Khosla and other wealthy landowners who have increasingly tried to buy up the internationally celebrated beaches along the California coast and turn public lands into private property.

The beach was a popular destination for fishing, surfing and other recreational activities for nearly a century, and the previous owners provided a general store and public restroom. But Khosla eventually bought the property and in 2010 closed public access, putting up signs warning against trespassing.

Khosla, who has a net worth of $1.55bn and does not live on the property, has faced multiple lawsuits and legislative efforts to get him to open up the gate to the beach near Half Moon Bay, about 30 miles south of San Francisco. The law in California states that all beaches should be open to the public up to the “mean high tide line”.

The decision this week, affirming a lower court ruling, stems from a lawsuit filed by the Surfrider Foundation, a not-for-profit group that says the case could have broader implications for beach access across the US.

“Vinod Khosla, with his billions of dollars, bought this piece of property and said, ‘No, no, the public isn’t going to use this anymore. End of story,’” the Surfrider attorney Joe Cotchett said by phone on Thursday. “He got away with it for many years … This is probably one of the most important public right-of-access cases in the country.”

Khosla’s refusal to restore access has made him something of a symbol of the immense wealth in the tech industry and rising income inequality in the region.

Last year, his attorneys claimed that he would open the gate to the beach only if the government paid him $30m, an amount that state officials said was unreasonably high. In October, Khosla also sued two state agencies, accusing the government of using “coercion and harassment” to infringe on his private property rights.

The California coastal commission, established by voters in 1972 to protect public use of the coast, has reported that beachgoers have increasingly complained about private security guards telling them they are trespassing on private property and forcing them to leave the public beaches.

“The issue here is, can wealthy private individuals buy up our beautiful beaches for their own use?” said Cotchett, adding that he expects Khosla to appeal the decision and attempt to bring the case to the US Supreme Court.

Khosla’s attorney did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

Khosla recently made headlines when he downplayed the problem of sexual harassment in the venture capital industry, which has recently been exposed as a major concern among female founders. “I did not know that there was any discrimination,” Khosla said at a recent event, adding that it was “rarer than in most other businesses”.


Source


I am absoluteley uneducated when it comes to buying / selling land in the USA, but I feel like you should be able to decide who is allowed on your property, unless you don't impact society in a major way by doing so. I assume the first private owner bought the beach from the state, so the obvious thing would be not trying to make money by selling public property... I don't like the idea of smomeone buying beaches etc. and closing them, but isn't this ruling like when I would force you to let other people hold a barbeque in your garden? With this ruling the deal gets altered afterwards, he keeps all the negatives of owning that beach while losing some of the positive aspects.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-11 03:19:57
August 11 2017 03:19 GMT
#167304
He bought the land around the beech and then closed it off to the public by building a gate, correct? It was previously accessible for decades until he came along and built the gate? That is how I read it.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-11 03:27:11
August 11 2017 03:25 GMT
#167305
TIL that in case those Guam missiles actually fly, the US would not be able to officially invoke Article 5. It's safe to assume that the NATO members would still offer military assistance, but technically they wouldn't need to.

I actually didn't know that. Makes Guam even "better" of a target from an insane minds standpoint.

edit: what's your guys opinions on that, do you think NATO countries would be morally obligated to offer help in case Guam gets hit (splashed, whatever)? I feel like there's compelling cases to be made for both arguments.
On track to MA1950A.
mozoku
Profile Joined September 2012
United States708 Posts
August 11 2017 03:26 GMT
#167306
On August 11 2017 12:11 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 11 2017 12:06 mozoku wrote:
On August 11 2017 11:18 Plansix wrote:
The worst sort of rich people.

I don't understand this at all. What does rich have to do with it? You don't think a ton of poor people would do the same if they had the means? This is the sort of class/identity warfare that is meaningless and totally unnecessary.

If I said "the worst sort of black people", "the worst sort of women", "the worst sort of poor people", "the worst sort of immigrant", etc., I'd have holy hell to pay in terms of angry rhetoric. It seems it's only troubling to use this sort of language when it's against the Left's political opponent groups.

Here's a neat fact: rich people aren't all immoral, evil goons out to screw the little guy. Most of them are pretty good people (just like most of all people are).

It isn't exclusive to you btw, so I'm a little sorry for picking on you here. I made a similar rant against KwarK's use of the phrase "Wall Street mentality" a while ago.

Are you doing some performance art as a special snowflake? That is the thing that offends you? There is a qualifier showing that it isn't all rich people and everything. You have to really be looking to be offended to pick that as the thing that rustles your jimmies. You have to want it bad.

Aren't you the guy who believes in microaggressions? Who are you to tell what me offends me and what doesn't? We have to be conscious of our biases and be careful to use the same language for all groups.
semantics
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
10040 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-11 03:30:14
August 11 2017 03:29 GMT
#167307
On August 11 2017 12:19 Plansix wrote:
He bought the land around the beech and then closed it off to the public by building a gate, correct? It was previously accessible for decades until he came along and built the gate? That is how I read it.

I believe that's the case as well, seems there are no private beaches in california atleast concerning everything below high tide
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
August 11 2017 03:31 GMT
#167308
On August 11 2017 12:25 m4ini wrote:
TIL that in case those Guam missiles actually fly, the US would not be able to officially invoke Article 5. It's safe to assume that the NATO members would still offer military assistance, but technically they wouldn't need to.

I actually didn't know that. Makes Guam even "better" of a target from an insane minds standpoint.

edit: what's your guys opinions on that, do you think NATO countries would be morally obligated to offer help in case Guam gets hit (splashed, whatever)? I feel like there's compelling cases to be made for both arguments.


If the other countries didn't reply in a positive they can kiss NATO goodbye and all cooperation funding, military, and intelligence goodbye.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-11 03:37:25
August 11 2017 03:34 GMT
#167309
On August 11 2017 12:29 semantics wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 11 2017 12:19 Plansix wrote:
He bought the land around the beech and then closed it off to the public by building a gate, correct? It was previously accessible for decades until he came along and built the gate? That is how I read it.

I believe that's the case as well, seems there are no private beaches in california atleast concerning everything below high tide

If that is correct, I bet the entire dispute hinges around a prescriptive easement, which means that the path was open and used by the public for a very long time, but then he closed it. It is like hiking trails that briefly cross over private land. I assume. It could be some weird California thing.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
August 11 2017 03:34 GMT
#167310
On August 11 2017 12:31 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 11 2017 12:25 m4ini wrote:
TIL that in case those Guam missiles actually fly, the US would not be able to officially invoke Article 5. It's safe to assume that the NATO members would still offer military assistance, but technically they wouldn't need to.

I actually didn't know that. Makes Guam even "better" of a target from an insane minds standpoint.

edit: what's your guys opinions on that, do you think NATO countries would be morally obligated to offer help in case Guam gets hit (splashed, whatever)? I feel like there's compelling cases to be made for both arguments.


If the other countries didn't reply in a positive they can kiss NATO goodbye and all cooperation funding, military, and intelligence goodbye.


On what basis?
On track to MA1950A.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
August 11 2017 03:37 GMT
#167311
On August 11 2017 12:34 m4ini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 11 2017 12:31 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
On August 11 2017 12:25 m4ini wrote:
TIL that in case those Guam missiles actually fly, the US would not be able to officially invoke Article 5. It's safe to assume that the NATO members would still offer military assistance, but technically they wouldn't need to.

I actually didn't know that. Makes Guam even "better" of a target from an insane minds standpoint.

edit: what's your guys opinions on that, do you think NATO countries would be morally obligated to offer help in case Guam gets hit (splashed, whatever)? I feel like there's compelling cases to be made for both arguments.


If the other countries didn't reply in a positive they can kiss NATO goodbye and all cooperation funding, military, and intelligence goodbye.


On what basis?


To invoke Article 5 means a NATO member is under threat and the rest must comply to defend as a whole the Alliance is under threat. Guam is US territory hence one can argue missiles were just fired at the United States a NATO member. The US has never refused to honor a Article 5 call. Ever.

Imagine being the country to do that and after North Korea is obliterated, the tens of millions dead, being the one country to be facing backlash from the US and other countries.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-11 03:41:25
August 11 2017 03:38 GMT
#167312
On August 11 2017 12:37 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 11 2017 12:34 m4ini wrote:
On August 11 2017 12:31 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
On August 11 2017 12:25 m4ini wrote:
TIL that in case those Guam missiles actually fly, the US would not be able to officially invoke Article 5. It's safe to assume that the NATO members would still offer military assistance, but technically they wouldn't need to.

I actually didn't know that. Makes Guam even "better" of a target from an insane minds standpoint.

edit: what's your guys opinions on that, do you think NATO countries would be morally obligated to offer help in case Guam gets hit (splashed, whatever)? I feel like there's compelling cases to be made for both arguments.


If the other countries didn't reply in a positive they can kiss NATO goodbye and all cooperation funding, military, and intelligence goodbye.


On what basis?


To invoke Article 5 means a NATO member is under threat and the rest must comply to defend as a whole the Alliance is under threat. Guam is US territory hence one can argue missiles were just fired at the United States a NATO member. The US has never refused to honor a Article 5 call. Ever.

Imagine being the country to do that and after North Korea is obliterated, the tens of millions dead, being the one country to be facing backlash from the US and other countries.


Fuck off.

First of all there never fucking was an Article 5 call other than from the US itself, second of all is Guam explicitly not covered by Article 5 as is clarified in Article 6.

Article 6

For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:

on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France 2, on the territory of or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;
on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.


That does explicitly not cover Guam which lies south of the Tropic of Cancer.

As i made clear you can make arguments for both cases, except you didn't at all.
On track to MA1950A.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-11 03:47:02
August 11 2017 03:40 GMT
#167313
On August 11 2017 12:37 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 11 2017 12:34 m4ini wrote:
On August 11 2017 12:31 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
On August 11 2017 12:25 m4ini wrote:
TIL that in case those Guam missiles actually fly, the US would not be able to officially invoke Article 5. It's safe to assume that the NATO members would still offer military assistance, but technically they wouldn't need to.

I actually didn't know that. Makes Guam even "better" of a target from an insane minds standpoint.

edit: what's your guys opinions on that, do you think NATO countries would be morally obligated to offer help in case Guam gets hit (splashed, whatever)? I feel like there's compelling cases to be made for both arguments.


If the other countries didn't reply in a positive they can kiss NATO goodbye and all cooperation funding, military, and intelligence goodbye.


On what basis?


To invoke Article 5 means a NATO member is under threat and the rest must comply to defend as a whole the Alliance is under threat. Guam is US territory hence one can argue missiles were just fired at the United States a NATO member. The US has never refused to honor a Article 5 call. Ever.

Imagine being the country to do that and after North Korea is obliterated, the tens of millions dead, being the one country to be facing backlash from the US and other countries.

NM: m4ini got it.

Looks like a PHD in Evolutionary biology decided to look at the memo: Along with some other scientist
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Aquanim
Profile Joined November 2012
Australia2849 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-11 03:49:39
August 11 2017 03:44 GMT
#167314
Isn't Guam in the Pacific rather than the Atlantic anyway?

EDIT: I think it's probably academic in that I can't imagine other NATO countries refusing to do anything in response to North Korea actually attacking Guam. Also, other treaties and organisations besides NATO and its provisions exist.
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-11 03:54:22
August 11 2017 03:50 GMT
#167315
On August 11 2017 12:44 Aquanim wrote:
Isn't Guam in the Pacific rather than the Atlantic anyway?

EDIT: I think it's probably academic in that I can't imagine other countries refusing to do anything in response to North Korea actually attacking Guam.


It's south of the Tropic of Cancer, which is not included in the defense treaty.

Again, i don't think so either for the most part. Still, arguments can be made either way, especially since we're not in legally binding territory.

Something that, as we know, is something that the US argues with a lot too.

Also, other treaties and organisations besides NATO and its provisions exist.


That really doesn't have to do anything with NATO though, does it? I'm not fluent enough in US mutual defense treaties though, no idea. I'd assume SK, obviously, other than that, no clue.
On track to MA1950A.
Aquanim
Profile Joined November 2012
Australia2849 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-11 03:58:15
August 11 2017 03:57 GMT
#167316
On August 11 2017 12:50 m4ini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 11 2017 12:44 Aquanim wrote:
Isn't Guam in the Pacific rather than the Atlantic anyway?

EDIT: I think it's probably academic in that I can't imagine other countries refusing to do anything in response to North Korea actually attacking Guam.


It's south of the Tropic of Cancer, which is not included in the defense treaty

To be more precise, it's not in "the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer", which is what the thing you cited actually says.

That really doesn't have to do anything with NATO though, does it?

No, but it does have to do with the realities of the situation as opposed to nitpicking.

As an aside, do please start treating other members of this thread with respect.
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-11 04:25:41
August 11 2017 04:20 GMT
#167317
I don't really know where to start.

First: you consider it "nitpicking", briefly after you passive-aggressively tried to point out that Guam doesn't just qualify for Article 5, but doesn't qualify twice. Don't do as i do, do as i say, your "aside"?

Second: you really don't get to argue "realities" as opposed to "nitpicking" if exactly that topic was and partially still is front page of major european (and australian btw) news outlets.

In regards to your sidenote, sure. Once they participate in a discussion other than patridiotic dickwaving sprinkled with obvious bullshit like "the US has never refused to honor an Article 5 call. Ever." - which actually is wrong twice, too. Not only was there never another Article 5 call other than after 9/11, Trump also questioned it in general.

As an actual aside, i do consider Stealth valuable and in fact thanked him for his contributions more than once. So lets keep the backseat moderation to a minimum.
On track to MA1950A.
ZerOCoolSC2
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
8979 Posts
August 11 2017 04:32 GMT
#167318
On August 11 2017 13:20 m4ini wrote:
I don't really know where to start.

First: you consider it "nitpicking", briefly after you passive-aggressively tried to point out that Guam doesn't just qualify for Article 5, but doesn't qualify twice. Don't do as i do, do as i say, your "aside"?

Second: you really don't get to argue "realities" as opposed to "nitpicking" if exactly that topic was and partially still is front page of major european (and australian btw) news outlets.

In regards to your sidenote, sure. Once they participate in a discussion other than patridiotic dickwaving sprinkled with obvious bullshit like "the US has never refused to honor an Article 5 call. Ever." - which actually is wrong twice, too. Not only was there never another Article 5 call other than after 9/11, Trump also questioned it in general.

As an actual aside, i do consider Stealth valuable and in fact thanked him for his contributions more than once. So lets keep the backseat moderation to a minimum.

You are overly hostile in this discussion. It's amusing but revealing.

What I get from that Article 6 is that just because Guam doesn't reside north of the tropic in cancer, it is still a US territory, therefore, it is protected by Article 5, as it is, technically, a US territory. Does that make sense?
Aquanim
Profile Joined November 2012
Australia2849 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-11 05:00:44
August 11 2017 04:37 GMT
#167319
On August 11 2017 13:20 m4ini wrote:
I don't really know where to start.

First: you consider it "nitpicking", briefly after you passive-aggressively tried to point out that Guam doesn't just qualify for Article 5, but doesn't qualify twice. Don't do as i do, do as i say, your "aside"?

I threw it out originally as an idle observation, then you said I was wrong, so I corrected you. Nitpicking was perhaps not the most accurate term.

Second: you really don't get to argue "realities" as opposed to "nitpicking" if exactly that topic was and partially still is front page of major european (and australian btw) news outlets.

In regards to your sidenote, sure. Once they participate in a discussion other than patridiotic dickwaving sprinkled with obvious bullshit like "the US has never refused to honor an Article 5 call. Ever." - which actually is wrong twice, too. Not only was there never another Article 5 call other than after 9/11, Trump also questioned it in general.

I mean technically an assertion on the members of the null set is vacuously true, but it's certainly true that Stealth's statement was misleading. His earlier statement that you challenged, along the lines of "if NATO members failed to respond to an attack on Guam it is unlikely that the US would respond to requests from them in the future", seems much more accurate.

As an actual aside, i do consider Stealth valuable and in fact thanked him for his contributions more than once. So lets keep the backseat moderation to a minimum.

Asking people to behave with respect to others is not and should not be the sole prerogative of moderators. Being polite some of the time is not an excuse to be rude the rest of the time.

EDIT:
On August 11 2017 13:32 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
You are overly hostile in this discussion. It's amusing but revealing.

not really helping

What I get from that Article 6 is that just because Guam doesn't reside north of the tropic in cancer, it is still a US territory, therefore, it is protected by Article 5, as it is, technically, a US territory. Does that make sense?

I believe Article 5 explicitly refers only to an attack in North America or Europe, extended by the statements in Article 6. Nevertheless I expect that the historical allies of the US would respond to an attack on Guam, and if they did not that Trump would at least want to pull out of treaties with them (with some degree of justification, I might add), regardless of the exact nature of those treaties.
ZerOCoolSC2
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
8979 Posts
August 11 2017 05:09 GMT
#167320
EDIT:
On August 11 2017 13:32 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
You are overly hostile in this discussion. It's amusing but revealing.

not really helping

What I get from that Article 6 is that just because Guam doesn't reside north of the tropic in cancer, it is still a US territory, therefore, it is protected by Article 5, as it is, technically, a US territory. Does that make sense?

I believe Article 5 explicitly refers only to an attack in North America or Europe, extended by the statements in Article 6. Nevertheless I expect that the historical allies of the US would respond to an attack on Guam, and if they did not that Trump would at least want to pull out of treaties with them (with some degree of justification, I might add), regardless of the exact nature of those treaties.

Oh, I'm not on your side here. I serve my own purpose. I'm rebuking his animosity in this discussion. Whether it assuages or infuriates him further, is of no concern to me. I don't think he should be so hostile by telling people to "fuck off" on a post.

As to your second part, you interpreted it differently than I did. As I'm sure others have done as well. But you're agreeing with me, so I don't understand why you expounded upon it further.
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