US Politics Mega-thread - Page 8366
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
Wulfey_LA
932 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 11 2017 12:06 mozoku wrote: I don't understand this at all. What does rich have to do with it? You don't think a ton of poor people would do the same if they had the means? This is the sort of class/identity warfare that is meaningless and totally unnecessary. If I said "the worst sort of black people", "the worst sort of women", "the worst sort of poor people", "the worst sort of immigrant", etc., I'd have holy hell to pay in terms of angry rhetoric. It seems it's only troubling to use this sort of language when it's against the Left's political opponent groups. Here's a neat fact: rich people aren't all immoral, evil goons out to screw the little guy. Most of them are pretty good people (just like most of all people are). It isn't exclusive to you btw, so I'm a little sorry for picking on you here. I made a similar rant against KwarK's use of the phrase "Wall Street mentality" a while ago. Are you doing some performance art as a special snowflake? That is the thing that offends you? There is a qualifier showing that it isn't all rich people and everything. You have to really be looking to be offended to pick that as the thing that rustles your jimmies. You have to want it bad. | ||
Artesimo
Germany537 Posts
On August 11 2017 11:13 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: A ray of good news in this end shit times this country and possibly the world is living in right now. Source I am absoluteley uneducated when it comes to buying / selling land in the USA, but I feel like you should be able to decide who is allowed on your property, unless you don't impact society in a major way by doing so. I assume the first private owner bought the beach from the state, so the obvious thing would be not trying to make money by selling public property... I don't like the idea of smomeone buying beaches etc. and closing them, but isn't this ruling like when I would force you to let other people hold a barbeque in your garden? With this ruling the deal gets altered afterwards, he keeps all the negatives of owning that beach while losing some of the positive aspects. | ||
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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m4ini
4215 Posts
I actually didn't know that. Makes Guam even "better" of a target from an insane minds standpoint. edit: what's your guys opinions on that, do you think NATO countries would be morally obligated to offer help in case Guam gets hit (splashed, whatever)? I feel like there's compelling cases to be made for both arguments. | ||
mozoku
United States708 Posts
On August 11 2017 12:11 Plansix wrote: Are you doing some performance art as a special snowflake? That is the thing that offends you? There is a qualifier showing that it isn't all rich people and everything. You have to really be looking to be offended to pick that as the thing that rustles your jimmies. You have to want it bad. Aren't you the guy who believes in microaggressions? Who are you to tell what me offends me and what doesn't? We have to be conscious of our biases and be careful to use the same language for all groups. | ||
semantics
10040 Posts
On August 11 2017 12:19 Plansix wrote: He bought the land around the beech and then closed it off to the public by building a gate, correct? It was previously accessible for decades until he came along and built the gate? That is how I read it. I believe that's the case as well, seems there are no private beaches in california atleast concerning everything below high tide | ||
{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
On August 11 2017 12:25 m4ini wrote: TIL that in case those Guam missiles actually fly, the US would not be able to officially invoke Article 5. It's safe to assume that the NATO members would still offer military assistance, but technically they wouldn't need to. I actually didn't know that. Makes Guam even "better" of a target from an insane minds standpoint. edit: what's your guys opinions on that, do you think NATO countries would be morally obligated to offer help in case Guam gets hit (splashed, whatever)? I feel like there's compelling cases to be made for both arguments. If the other countries didn't reply in a positive they can kiss NATO goodbye and all cooperation funding, military, and intelligence goodbye. | ||
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 11 2017 12:29 semantics wrote: I believe that's the case as well, seems there are no private beaches in california atleast concerning everything below high tide If that is correct, I bet the entire dispute hinges around a prescriptive easement, which means that the path was open and used by the public for a very long time, but then he closed it. It is like hiking trails that briefly cross over private land. I assume. It could be some weird California thing. | ||
m4ini
4215 Posts
On August 11 2017 12:31 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: If the other countries didn't reply in a positive they can kiss NATO goodbye and all cooperation funding, military, and intelligence goodbye. On what basis? | ||
{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
To invoke Article 5 means a NATO member is under threat and the rest must comply to defend as a whole the Alliance is under threat. Guam is US territory hence one can argue missiles were just fired at the United States a NATO member. The US has never refused to honor a Article 5 call. Ever. Imagine being the country to do that and after North Korea is obliterated, the tens of millions dead, being the one country to be facing backlash from the US and other countries. | ||
m4ini
4215 Posts
On August 11 2017 12:37 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: To invoke Article 5 means a NATO member is under threat and the rest must comply to defend as a whole the Alliance is under threat. Guam is US territory hence one can argue missiles were just fired at the United States a NATO member. The US has never refused to honor a Article 5 call. Ever. Imagine being the country to do that and after North Korea is obliterated, the tens of millions dead, being the one country to be facing backlash from the US and other countries. Fuck off. First of all there never fucking was an Article 5 call other than from the US itself, second of all is Guam explicitly not covered by Article 5 as is clarified in Article 6. Article 6 For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack: on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France 2, on the territory of or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer; on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer. That does explicitly not cover Guam which lies south of the Tropic of Cancer. As i made clear you can make arguments for both cases, except you didn't at all. | ||
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 11 2017 12:37 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: To invoke Article 5 means a NATO member is under threat and the rest must comply to defend as a whole the Alliance is under threat. Guam is US territory hence one can argue missiles were just fired at the United States a NATO member. The US has never refused to honor a Article 5 call. Ever. Imagine being the country to do that and after North Korea is obliterated, the tens of millions dead, being the one country to be facing backlash from the US and other countries. NM: m4ini got it. Looks like a PHD in Evolutionary biology decided to look at the memo: Along with some other scientist | ||
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
EDIT: I think it's probably academic in that I can't imagine other NATO countries refusing to do anything in response to North Korea actually attacking Guam. Also, other treaties and organisations besides NATO and its provisions exist. | ||
m4ini
4215 Posts
On August 11 2017 12:44 Aquanim wrote: Isn't Guam in the Pacific rather than the Atlantic anyway? EDIT: I think it's probably academic in that I can't imagine other countries refusing to do anything in response to North Korea actually attacking Guam. It's south of the Tropic of Cancer, which is not included in the defense treaty. Again, i don't think so either for the most part. Still, arguments can be made either way, especially since we're not in legally binding territory. Something that, as we know, is something that the US argues with a lot too. Also, other treaties and organisations besides NATO and its provisions exist. That really doesn't have to do anything with NATO though, does it? I'm not fluent enough in US mutual defense treaties though, no idea. I'd assume SK, obviously, other than that, no clue. | ||
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On August 11 2017 12:50 m4ini wrote: It's south of the Tropic of Cancer, which is not included in the defense treaty To be more precise, it's not in "the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer", which is what the thing you cited actually says. That really doesn't have to do anything with NATO though, does it? No, but it does have to do with the realities of the situation as opposed to nitpicking. As an aside, do please start treating other members of this thread with respect. | ||
m4ini
4215 Posts
First: you consider it "nitpicking", briefly after you passive-aggressively tried to point out that Guam doesn't just qualify for Article 5, but doesn't qualify twice. Don't do as i do, do as i say, your "aside"? Second: you really don't get to argue "realities" as opposed to "nitpicking" if exactly that topic was and partially still is front page of major european (and australian btw) news outlets. In regards to your sidenote, sure. Once they participate in a discussion other than patridiotic dickwaving sprinkled with obvious bullshit like "the US has never refused to honor an Article 5 call. Ever." - which actually is wrong twice, too. Not only was there never another Article 5 call other than after 9/11, Trump also questioned it in general. As an actual aside, i do consider Stealth valuable and in fact thanked him for his contributions more than once. So lets keep the backseat moderation to a minimum. | ||
ZerOCoolSC2
8928 Posts
On August 11 2017 13:20 m4ini wrote: I don't really know where to start. First: you consider it "nitpicking", briefly after you passive-aggressively tried to point out that Guam doesn't just qualify for Article 5, but doesn't qualify twice. Don't do as i do, do as i say, your "aside"? Second: you really don't get to argue "realities" as opposed to "nitpicking" if exactly that topic was and partially still is front page of major european (and australian btw) news outlets. In regards to your sidenote, sure. Once they participate in a discussion other than patridiotic dickwaving sprinkled with obvious bullshit like "the US has never refused to honor an Article 5 call. Ever." - which actually is wrong twice, too. Not only was there never another Article 5 call other than after 9/11, Trump also questioned it in general. As an actual aside, i do consider Stealth valuable and in fact thanked him for his contributions more than once. So lets keep the backseat moderation to a minimum. You are overly hostile in this discussion. It's amusing but revealing. What I get from that Article 6 is that just because Guam doesn't reside north of the tropic in cancer, it is still a US territory, therefore, it is protected by Article 5, as it is, technically, a US territory. Does that make sense? | ||
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On August 11 2017 13:20 m4ini wrote: I don't really know where to start. First: you consider it "nitpicking", briefly after you passive-aggressively tried to point out that Guam doesn't just qualify for Article 5, but doesn't qualify twice. Don't do as i do, do as i say, your "aside"? I threw it out originally as an idle observation, then you said I was wrong, so I corrected you. Nitpicking was perhaps not the most accurate term. Second: you really don't get to argue "realities" as opposed to "nitpicking" if exactly that topic was and partially still is front page of major european (and australian btw) news outlets. In regards to your sidenote, sure. Once they participate in a discussion other than patridiotic dickwaving sprinkled with obvious bullshit like "the US has never refused to honor an Article 5 call. Ever." - which actually is wrong twice, too. Not only was there never another Article 5 call other than after 9/11, Trump also questioned it in general. I mean technically an assertion on the members of the null set is vacuously true, but it's certainly true that Stealth's statement was misleading. His earlier statement that you challenged, along the lines of "if NATO members failed to respond to an attack on Guam it is unlikely that the US would respond to requests from them in the future", seems much more accurate. As an actual aside, i do consider Stealth valuable and in fact thanked him for his contributions more than once. So lets keep the backseat moderation to a minimum. Asking people to behave with respect to others is not and should not be the sole prerogative of moderators. Being polite some of the time is not an excuse to be rude the rest of the time. EDIT: On August 11 2017 13:32 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: You are overly hostile in this discussion. It's amusing but revealing. not really helping What I get from that Article 6 is that just because Guam doesn't reside north of the tropic in cancer, it is still a US territory, therefore, it is protected by Article 5, as it is, technically, a US territory. Does that make sense? I believe Article 5 explicitly refers only to an attack in North America or Europe, extended by the statements in Article 6. Nevertheless I expect that the historical allies of the US would respond to an attack on Guam, and if they did not that Trump would at least want to pull out of treaties with them (with some degree of justification, I might add), regardless of the exact nature of those treaties. | ||
ZerOCoolSC2
8928 Posts
EDIT: On August 11 2017 13:32 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: You are overly hostile in this discussion. It's amusing but revealing. not really helping What I get from that Article 6 is that just because Guam doesn't reside north of the tropic in cancer, it is still a US territory, therefore, it is protected by Article 5, as it is, technically, a US territory. Does that make sense? I believe Article 5 explicitly refers only to an attack in North America or Europe, extended by the statements in Article 6. Nevertheless I expect that the historical allies of the US would respond to an attack on Guam, and if they did not that Trump would at least want to pull out of treaties with them (with some degree of justification, I might add), regardless of the exact nature of those treaties. Oh, I'm not on your side here. I serve my own purpose. I'm rebuking his animosity in this discussion. Whether it assuages or infuriates him further, is of no concern to me. I don't think he should be so hostile by telling people to "fuck off" on a post. As to your second part, you interpreted it differently than I did. As I'm sure others have done as well. But you're agreeing with me, so I don't understand why you expounded upon it further. | ||
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