EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 8127
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
Liberal somewhat left of American center on average. More sympathetic towards Europe than average. More technically inclined than average. More concentrated in urban areas than average. More globalist than most. Generally supportive of UHC regardless of political affiliation. Lean Democrat on average. | ||
KwarK
United States43748 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
That which is dead can never die. We return to the bullshit era of police seizing property and money on arrest. Then you need to prove you own it. If this sounds easy to abuse, it was. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12420 Posts
In Europe we have simplified that it's good to be socially liberal, so the divide is on economics. You can be to the left or to the right when it comes to that. In the US you have simplified that it's good to be economically conservative, so the divide is on social issues. You can be to the left or to the right when it comes to that. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
Time to teach them blacks a lesson. Also just watch as the Corporate world is granted a part in this undertaking. | ||
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mozoku
United States708 Posts
On July 20 2017 03:05 Nebuchad wrote: The left/right divide is a binary thing, and politics hit multiple issues. In order to work, it requires a massive simplification process. In Europe we have simplified that it's good to be socially liberal, so the divide is on economics. You can be to the left or to the right when it comes to that. In the US you have simplified that it's good to be economically conservative, so the divide is on social issues. You can be to the left or to the right when it comes to that. I don't think the last paragraph is true at all. A large percentage of the the American left denounces capitalism, and most Wall Street Republicans are socially liberal and not that far from establishment Democrats in a lot of areas. | ||
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KwarK
United States43748 Posts
On July 20 2017 03:13 mozoku wrote: I don't think the last paragraph is true at all. A large percentage of the the American left denounces capitalism, and most Wall Street Republicans are socially liberal and not that far from establishment Democrats in a lot of areas. Denounces capitalism? I don't think that at all. Very few people on the left think that supply and demand isn't the right way to get goods to people and that a profit motive is ineffective. People think that capitalism needs to be used as a tool to solve some problems and not others (for example capitalism is not a good way of deciding who gets an education), but I think the left likes capitalism a lot. They don't worship it, but they're still going to go to McDonalds and buy iphones. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12420 Posts
On July 20 2017 03:13 mozoku wrote: I don't think the last paragraph is true at all. A large percentage of the the American left denounces capitalism, and most Wall Street Republicans are socially liberal and not that far from establishment Democrats in a lot of areas. Like I said it's a simplification because you need that to say something as binary as left and right. There's a resurgence of economical leftwing in the US with people who like Bernie, just like there's a resurgence of socially conservative parties in Europe. You call yours far left for being european leftwing, and we call ours far right for being american rightwing. If we agree that this is the framing, I can make an argument as to why the US framing is logically inferior to the european one, but I don't know how much it matters and I don't even know that we can agree in the first place. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
Dodd-Frank had created default provisions that would automatically go into effect if there was no confirmed director, and his bank was almost certainly not in compliance with those rules. I told him that if that happened, ‘I think you guys are breaking the law.’ Suddenly [JP Morgan's Jamie] Dimon got quiet. He leaned back and slowly smiled. ‘So hit me with a fine. We can afford it.’ How about we throw them in jail and put them to work instead? Will that price be high enough to stop them breaking the law? | ||
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KwarK
United States43748 Posts
On July 20 2017 03:25 a_flayer wrote: I don't necessarily have a problem with capitalism. I have a problem with this: How about we throw them in jail and put them to work instead? Will that price be high enough to stop them breaking the law? Their job is to make money for their shareholders. It's just a question of getting the incentives properly aligned. | ||
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
On July 20 2017 03:28 KwarK wrote: Their job is to make money for their shareholders. It's just a question of getting the incentives properly aligned. Are you suggesting not hanging from a tree with a noose around their necks isn't the right incentive? Don't be silly. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 20 2017 03:28 KwarK wrote: Their job is to make money for their shareholders. It's just a question of getting the incentives properly aligned. They used to go to jail for this shit back in the 1980s. But we don’t do that anymore. That aspect of capitalism needs to be fixed. Fines are not sufficient, jail time is required. | ||
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mozoku
United States708 Posts
On July 20 2017 03:17 KwarK wrote: Denounces capitalism? I don't think that at all. Very few people on the left think that supply and demand isn't the right way to get goods to people and that a profit motive is ineffective. People think that capitalism needs to be used as a tool to solve some problems and not others (for example capitalism is not a good way of deciding who gets an education), but I think the left likes capitalism a lot. They don't worship it, but they're still going to go to McDonalds and buy iphones. I think we're talking past each other a bit here. Something like a majority of millennials agree with the statement "capitalism has done more harm than good" and most American progressives (a large percentage of the American left) are openly disparaging of capitalism. That said, I think it's more due to differing views on what the word "capitalism" means rather than not agreeing with what you said. Either way, I'm guessing those groups are fairly similar to the European left. (I'm admittedly less familiar with European politics than I probably should be, so correct me if I'm wrong.) | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 20 2017 03:32 mozoku wrote: I think we're talking past each other a bit here. Something like a majority of millennials agree with the statement "capitalism has done more harm than good" and most American progressives (a large percentage of the American left) are openly disparaging of capitalism. That said, I think it's more due to differing views on what the word "capitalism" means rather than not agreeing with what you said. Either way, I'm guessing those groups are fairly similar to the European left. (I'm admittedly less familiar with European politics than I probably should be, so correct me if I'm wrong.) Rather than look at a poll saying the youth don’t believe in capitalism as some shift in rhetoric, ask why that group doesn’t believe in capitalism like their parent did? What changed? | ||
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Falling
Canada11452 Posts
I really like Peterson and have incorporated some of his argumentation into this discussion. But I don't think you are doing yourself or him any favours. Despite how much I find myself in agreement with him, I think if you find yourself saying he is the most intelligent man alive, you are moving into ideologue territory. Asking someone to watch 10 hours of video is not good for discussion and demonstrates you are not being articulate. Now, if people are making unwarranted attacks on Peterson, that might be an occasion to suggest they listen to this or that lecture, but even then, I would suggest pointing to specific timestamps. You need to synthesize what you have listened and stop coming into the discussion guns a blazing. I think you will have a more fruitful discussion. edit. One thing that's bugged me for awhile is that while he has claimed that post-modernism had its origins in Marxism, I haven't really found a place where he broke it down and demonstrated that was the case. Stephen Hicks tried to trace this idea: Marxism failed to predict the success of capitalism in the 20th Century and everywhere failed, so he postulated either you change your religions (Marxism has an eschatology- a utopia/ heaven on earth) or you deny/ undercut the evidence-> post-modernism. He then traces three waves of post-modernism, starting with the intellectuals on down. I don't know enough about any of those thinkers to know if this is true, but it's an interesting theory. (Postmodernism lectures uploaded by the Atlas Society youtube channel.) | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On July 20 2017 03:32 mozoku wrote: I think we're talking past each other a bit here. Something like a majority of millennials agree with the statement "capitalism has done more harm than good" and most American progressives (a large percentage of the American left) are openly disparaging of capitalism. That said, I think it's more due to differing views on what the word "capitalism" means rather than not agreeing with what you said. Either way, I'm guessing those groups are fairly similar to the European left. (I'm admittedly less familiar with European politics than I probably should be, so correct me if I'm wrong.) I imagine the ideology is closer to anti-corporatism. Again, US politics is like bizarro world where things don't mean what they mean. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10866 Posts
Or we actually belief in democracy... You add in others from both fringes and it would become one strange, probably still fun - i hope, evening. | ||
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