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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
July 07 2017 21:02 GMT
#160621
On July 08 2017 05:58 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 08 2017 05:36 Danglars wrote:
On July 08 2017 04:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On July 08 2017 02:57 Danglars wrote:
On July 08 2017 02:42 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On July 08 2017 02:16 Danglars wrote:
On July 08 2017 02:11 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On July 08 2017 00:22 Nevuk wrote:


Other reporters have confirmed that women now need to be wearing sleeves to be allowed in. Apparently it is Paul Ryan's policy.


http://www.cbsnews.com/news/are-sleeveless-dresses-appropriate-attire-congress-doesnt-think-so/


Edit : Apparently this has been policy since Tip O'Neal and Pelosi was criticized for not overturning it.


That's such a dumb rule. Now shoulders are taboo?

I don't know how appropriate 'now' is since it's been the rule for decades/centuries.

What the actual fuck? Why are you expressing that you doubt that showing shoulders is taboo is modern day USA?

See my response to Mohdoo.
How about you actually answer my question rather than pretend to answer my question.

Side note: BBC analysis of Russian media suggest that Trump agrees that Ukraine should be under Russian control.

How about you quote my actual answer and tell me why it was insufficient. I'm not going to repeat my framework ad infinitum when it's clear you misunderstood what I said from the start and it looks like you're looking to gain from deliberately choosing your private and bad interpretation in the future. I was simply taken aback at how you interpreted the historical depth of a rule for the House to be my statement on "modern day USA."
What answer? Everytime I ask you a question you just say, see previous answers somewhere, or see previous post somewhere. Just answer the question plain and simple. It's almost a yes or no question.

I quoted the post in my response and you chose to edit it out and ask for a new answer. Mohdoo got it, you didn't. I have no reason to think a further answer will be read and not edited out because the first didn't even get discussed to why you think it's insufficient. If you need more clarification having read my answer, PM me. I'm unwilling to shit up the thread any further.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Toadesstern
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Germany16350 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-07 21:06:01
July 07 2017 21:05 GMT
#160622
On July 08 2017 05:40 Zambrah wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 08 2017 01:09 Danglars wrote:
On July 08 2017 00:55 Zambrah wrote:
18 year olds are totally capable of planning, but I dobt they're often given the tools to really plan. Shit all through school you're told which classes you're going to take because who the hell knows where you'll end up? It'd be nice if high school became that career planning phase of education, I know plenty of people with the academic ability of a dried out cactus that had planned like ten years into their future (often as a trade worker) that dude is probably a welder making good money at the moment. High school should really be more practical than it is. No, I don't use trig or calc in my life at all, nor chemistry, and not physics (as much as I enjoyed chem and physics) and many people would be better served dropping some of the core classes in favor of life skills courses if they don't ever intend to become chemists or creative writers or mathematicians.

Don't forget that teenagers without good long term plans may have to experience something like chemistry in a high school setting to actually decide if they like it and simultaneously not be behind their peers in college should it inspire a four year degree program in a related field. It's a very practical consideration in my view. I'm also very much in favor of home ec, shop, and drivers ed/car classes taught as electives and encouraged by parents.


I think a stronger elective focus is really critical, I took Graphic Design courses that taught me up through intermediary Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign and other shit like Finalcut Pro and that was a huge thing when I went to school with a solid amount of technical knowledge that let me skip past useless introductory courses in school.

I imagine it's pretty fuckin tough to get that strong elective focus going in schools and exposure to the academic fundamentals doesn't need to go away, but I think that having to go through all of that foundation is unnecessary, and having competent career counselors and services could be useful to get students on the right track to not leaving high school with jus zero idea about what they wanna do. Even if they just know what they DON'T wanna do that's better than pure aimlessness


I don't know what it's like in the US but don't you guys have some kind of choice in what classes you have at some point?

Over here in Germany it is (or was at least for me) something like this: You have Kindergarten, elementary school, middle school and then Highschool. Up to middle school everything was pretty much determined by the school. You get some minor choices like what your 2nd foreign language is etc but once I got into Highschool we had to pick a bunch and also drop a bunch of classes.
I for example couldn't do biology + chem + physics (even though I wanted to) simply because of some other choices I had but I didn't have to sit through another class of french among other things anymore. On the other hand we also had to choose 2 classes that we want to prioritize more than the average classes resulting in about twice as much workload in those.
So long story short, I think you can get away with including some less career oriented stuff as long as you do have some choices later on on what to drop and what to focus on.
<Elem> >toad in charge of judging lewdness <Elem> how bad can it be <Elem> also wew, that is actually p lewd.
Zambrah
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States7393 Posts
July 07 2017 21:20 GMT
#160623
On July 08 2017 06:05 Toadesstern wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 08 2017 05:40 Zambrah wrote:
On July 08 2017 01:09 Danglars wrote:
On July 08 2017 00:55 Zambrah wrote:
18 year olds are totally capable of planning, but I dobt they're often given the tools to really plan. Shit all through school you're told which classes you're going to take because who the hell knows where you'll end up? It'd be nice if high school became that career planning phase of education, I know plenty of people with the academic ability of a dried out cactus that had planned like ten years into their future (often as a trade worker) that dude is probably a welder making good money at the moment. High school should really be more practical than it is. No, I don't use trig or calc in my life at all, nor chemistry, and not physics (as much as I enjoyed chem and physics) and many people would be better served dropping some of the core classes in favor of life skills courses if they don't ever intend to become chemists or creative writers or mathematicians.

Don't forget that teenagers without good long term plans may have to experience something like chemistry in a high school setting to actually decide if they like it and simultaneously not be behind their peers in college should it inspire a four year degree program in a related field. It's a very practical consideration in my view. I'm also very much in favor of home ec, shop, and drivers ed/car classes taught as electives and encouraged by parents.


I think a stronger elective focus is really critical, I took Graphic Design courses that taught me up through intermediary Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign and other shit like Finalcut Pro and that was a huge thing when I went to school with a solid amount of technical knowledge that let me skip past useless introductory courses in school.

I imagine it's pretty fuckin tough to get that strong elective focus going in schools and exposure to the academic fundamentals doesn't need to go away, but I think that having to go through all of that foundation is unnecessary, and having competent career counselors and services could be useful to get students on the right track to not leaving high school with jus zero idea about what they wanna do. Even if they just know what they DON'T wanna do that's better than pure aimlessness


I don't know what it's like in the US but don't you guys have some kind of choice in what classes you have at some point?

Over here in Germany it is (or was at least for me) something like this: You have Kindergarten, elementary school, middle school and then Highschool. Up to middle school everything was pretty much determined by the school. You get some minor choices like what your 2nd foreign language is etc but once I got into Highschool we had to pick a bunch and also drop a bunch of classes.
I for example couldn't do biology + chem + physics (even though I wanted to) simply because of some other choices I had but I didn't have to sit through another class of french among other things anymore. On the other hand we also had to choose 2 classes that we want to prioritize more than the average classes resulting in about twice as much workload in those.
So long story short, I think you can get away with including some less career oriented stuff as long as you do have some choices later on on what to drop and what to focus on.


I can only speak to my school, but most of the choices were the levels of the class so AP, Honors, and normal, and then you could choose other courses but there was all of like art, cooking, and graphic design aside from the language courses. No shop, or anything. Only reason I could take Graphic Design courses was because a rich old dude brought his own Mac's, tablets, mice, and software.

So you had choice but the choice was pretty superficial and didn't do a lot for exploring career paths and options. Some teachers would work with you if they knew you and you asked, but most of those teachers got fired when the new principal came in, they also cut a bunch of AP courses to open up rooms for remedial courses, so yeah lol.
Incremental change is the Democrat version of Trickle Down economics.
brian
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States9639 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-07 22:12:33
July 07 2017 22:06 GMT
#160624
On July 08 2017 05:58 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 08 2017 05:36 Danglars wrote:
On July 08 2017 04:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On July 08 2017 02:57 Danglars wrote:
On July 08 2017 02:42 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On July 08 2017 02:16 Danglars wrote:
On July 08 2017 02:11 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On July 08 2017 00:22 Nevuk wrote:
https://twitter.com/RebeccaShabad/status/882948419068801028

Other reporters have confirmed that women now need to be wearing sleeves to be allowed in. Apparently it is Paul Ryan's policy.


http://www.cbsnews.com/news/are-sleeveless-dresses-appropriate-attire-congress-doesnt-think-so/


Edit : Apparently this has been policy since Tip O'Neal and Pelosi was criticized for not overturning it.


That's such a dumb rule. Now shoulders are taboo?

I don't know how appropriate 'now' is since it's been the rule for decades/centuries.

What the actual fuck? Why are you expressing that you doubt that showing shoulders is taboo is modern day USA?

See my response to Mohdoo.
How about you actually answer my question rather than pretend to answer my question.

Side note: BBC analysis of Russian media suggest that Trump agrees that Ukraine should be under Russian control.

How about you quote my actual answer and tell me why it was insufficient. I'm not going to repeat my framework ad infinitum when it's clear you misunderstood what I said from the start and it looks like you're looking to gain from deliberately choosing your private and bad interpretation in the future. I was simply taken aback at how you interpreted the historical depth of a rule for the House to be my statement on "modern day USA."
What answer? Everytime I ask you a question you just say, see previous answers somewhere, or see previous post somewhere. Just answer the question plain and simple. It's almost a yes or no question. Do you consider showing shoulders a taboo is modern day USA? Yes, No, Don't know.

you're absolutely wrong here. that's not even remotely what he said, but you chose to put it in his mouth. his response was very clear. if you believe the use of 'now' in that headline/post/tweet or insinuation that Paul Ryan instituted this policy out of the blue was appropriate i'd sooner hear you defend that than hear Danglers defend a shockingly baseless accusation.

i hear you on dodginess but to build that argument on this foundation of shit does everyone a disservice.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
July 07 2017 22:09 GMT
#160625
On July 08 2017 06:02 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 08 2017 05:58 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On July 08 2017 05:36 Danglars wrote:
On July 08 2017 04:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On July 08 2017 02:57 Danglars wrote:
On July 08 2017 02:42 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On July 08 2017 02:16 Danglars wrote:
On July 08 2017 02:11 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On July 08 2017 00:22 Nevuk wrote:
https://twitter.com/RebeccaShabad/status/882948419068801028

Other reporters have confirmed that women now need to be wearing sleeves to be allowed in. Apparently it is Paul Ryan's policy.


http://www.cbsnews.com/news/are-sleeveless-dresses-appropriate-attire-congress-doesnt-think-so/


Edit : Apparently this has been policy since Tip O'Neal and Pelosi was criticized for not overturning it.


That's such a dumb rule. Now shoulders are taboo?

I don't know how appropriate 'now' is since it's been the rule for decades/centuries.

What the actual fuck? Why are you expressing that you doubt that showing shoulders is taboo is modern day USA?

See my response to Mohdoo.
How about you actually answer my question rather than pretend to answer my question.

Side note: BBC analysis of Russian media suggest that Trump agrees that Ukraine should be under Russian control.

How about you quote my actual answer and tell me why it was insufficient. I'm not going to repeat my framework ad infinitum when it's clear you misunderstood what I said from the start and it looks like you're looking to gain from deliberately choosing your private and bad interpretation in the future. I was simply taken aback at how you interpreted the historical depth of a rule for the House to be my statement on "modern day USA."
What answer? Everytime I ask you a question you just say, see previous answers somewhere, or see previous post somewhere. Just answer the question plain and simple. It's almost a yes or no question.

I quoted the post in my response and you chose to edit it out and ask for a new answer. Mohdoo got it, you didn't. I have no reason to think a further answer will be read and not edited out because the first didn't even get discussed to why you think it's insufficient. If you need more clarification having read my answer, PM me. I'm unwilling to shit up the thread any further.


To be fair, I kind of got it. But I think it is worth critiquing the fact that you often give people very roundabout answers and reply using core philosophy rather than giving people specifics about why you have reached a certain conclusion in a certain situation. It is rare that you give specifics about what makes a certain situation the way it is. Because of that, it often feels like you are not actually having a conversation but rather making mini-speeches. You could almost call it political speak, lol. In this instance, you are being squirmy about actually giving direct, individually supported answers. It is frustrating at times and I think it is fair to point it out.
Stratos_speAr
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6959 Posts
July 07 2017 22:17 GMT
#160626
On July 08 2017 06:05 Toadesstern wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 08 2017 05:40 Zambrah wrote:
On July 08 2017 01:09 Danglars wrote:
On July 08 2017 00:55 Zambrah wrote:
18 year olds are totally capable of planning, but I dobt they're often given the tools to really plan. Shit all through school you're told which classes you're going to take because who the hell knows where you'll end up? It'd be nice if high school became that career planning phase of education, I know plenty of people with the academic ability of a dried out cactus that had planned like ten years into their future (often as a trade worker) that dude is probably a welder making good money at the moment. High school should really be more practical than it is. No, I don't use trig or calc in my life at all, nor chemistry, and not physics (as much as I enjoyed chem and physics) and many people would be better served dropping some of the core classes in favor of life skills courses if they don't ever intend to become chemists or creative writers or mathematicians.

Don't forget that teenagers without good long term plans may have to experience something like chemistry in a high school setting to actually decide if they like it and simultaneously not be behind their peers in college should it inspire a four year degree program in a related field. It's a very practical consideration in my view. I'm also very much in favor of home ec, shop, and drivers ed/car classes taught as electives and encouraged by parents.


I think a stronger elective focus is really critical, I took Graphic Design courses that taught me up through intermediary Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign and other shit like Finalcut Pro and that was a huge thing when I went to school with a solid amount of technical knowledge that let me skip past useless introductory courses in school.

I imagine it's pretty fuckin tough to get that strong elective focus going in schools and exposure to the academic fundamentals doesn't need to go away, but I think that having to go through all of that foundation is unnecessary, and having competent career counselors and services could be useful to get students on the right track to not leaving high school with jus zero idea about what they wanna do. Even if they just know what they DON'T wanna do that's better than pure aimlessness


I don't know what it's like in the US but don't you guys have some kind of choice in what classes you have at some point?

Over here in Germany it is (or was at least for me) something like this: You have Kindergarten, elementary school, middle school and then Highschool. Up to middle school everything was pretty much determined by the school. You get some minor choices like what your 2nd foreign language is etc but once I got into Highschool we had to pick a bunch and also drop a bunch of classes.
I for example couldn't do biology + chem + physics (even though I wanted to) simply because of some other choices I had but I didn't have to sit through another class of french among other things anymore. On the other hand we also had to choose 2 classes that we want to prioritize more than the average classes resulting in about twice as much workload in those.
So long story short, I think you can get away with including some less career oriented stuff as long as you do have some choices later on on what to drop and what to focus on.


It all depends on your school and what they have available.

When I was in high school, there was an extremely limited selection of classes, especially if you were an advanced student looking at college. Now I hear stories from younger people that went to the same high school as me and they mention all the different classes they were able to take that were never offered when I was there. And the high school I went to is a very high quality public school with a large student body.

It all depends on where you go to school, the resources they have, etc. The difference in quality of education between one school to the next in the U.S. would blow your mind.
A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else.
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-07 22:24:52
July 07 2017 22:19 GMT
#160627
Education in the U.S. is hyper-heterogeneous because of how heavily localized it is. Even public schools have enormous variance in their course offerings based upon how much funding they have, state laws, and local schoolboard decisions. I needed to take two semesters of practical arts, one of home ec, one of personal finance, one of health, and a semester of government to get a high school diploma where I grew up, but that's because of the state I grew up in and the huge amount of resources my school had available because the tax base was big allowing me to take pretty much whatever over the summer along with a bunch of other advanced courses to make me satisfy requirements AND look good to colleges.

Being a schoolboard member is probably the best way to cause some positive change in your community if you can stomach it (and plan to be around for a while). Often times just having competent people can be hugely beneficial, regardless of political leanings.
Toadesstern
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Germany16350 Posts
July 07 2017 22:35 GMT
#160628
On July 08 2017 07:17 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 08 2017 06:05 Toadesstern wrote:
On July 08 2017 05:40 Zambrah wrote:
On July 08 2017 01:09 Danglars wrote:
On July 08 2017 00:55 Zambrah wrote:
18 year olds are totally capable of planning, but I dobt they're often given the tools to really plan. Shit all through school you're told which classes you're going to take because who the hell knows where you'll end up? It'd be nice if high school became that career planning phase of education, I know plenty of people with the academic ability of a dried out cactus that had planned like ten years into their future (often as a trade worker) that dude is probably a welder making good money at the moment. High school should really be more practical than it is. No, I don't use trig or calc in my life at all, nor chemistry, and not physics (as much as I enjoyed chem and physics) and many people would be better served dropping some of the core classes in favor of life skills courses if they don't ever intend to become chemists or creative writers or mathematicians.

Don't forget that teenagers without good long term plans may have to experience something like chemistry in a high school setting to actually decide if they like it and simultaneously not be behind their peers in college should it inspire a four year degree program in a related field. It's a very practical consideration in my view. I'm also very much in favor of home ec, shop, and drivers ed/car classes taught as electives and encouraged by parents.


I think a stronger elective focus is really critical, I took Graphic Design courses that taught me up through intermediary Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign and other shit like Finalcut Pro and that was a huge thing when I went to school with a solid amount of technical knowledge that let me skip past useless introductory courses in school.

I imagine it's pretty fuckin tough to get that strong elective focus going in schools and exposure to the academic fundamentals doesn't need to go away, but I think that having to go through all of that foundation is unnecessary, and having competent career counselors and services could be useful to get students on the right track to not leaving high school with jus zero idea about what they wanna do. Even if they just know what they DON'T wanna do that's better than pure aimlessness


I don't know what it's like in the US but don't you guys have some kind of choice in what classes you have at some point?

Over here in Germany it is (or was at least for me) something like this: You have Kindergarten, elementary school, middle school and then Highschool. Up to middle school everything was pretty much determined by the school. You get some minor choices like what your 2nd foreign language is etc but once I got into Highschool we had to pick a bunch and also drop a bunch of classes.
I for example couldn't do biology + chem + physics (even though I wanted to) simply because of some other choices I had but I didn't have to sit through another class of french among other things anymore. On the other hand we also had to choose 2 classes that we want to prioritize more than the average classes resulting in about twice as much workload in those.
So long story short, I think you can get away with including some less career oriented stuff as long as you do have some choices later on on what to drop and what to focus on.


It all depends on your school and what they have available.

When I was in high school, there was an extremely limited selection of classes, especially if you were an advanced student looking at college. Now I hear stories from younger people that went to the same high school as me and they mention all the different classes they were able to take that were never offered when I was there. And the high school I went to is a very high quality public school with a large student body.

It all depends on where you go to school, the resources they have, etc. The difference in quality of education between one school to the next in the U.S. would blow your mind.


Just to clear it up a bit, I didn't have anything specific like the aforementioned graphics design or anything like that either.
I'm sure that's the same everywhere: you have really good schools that can offer "fancy" stuff like that or have a special chance to do it due to certain circumstances like random rich guy, and then you have everything else that can't.
But my (intended) point was more in response to the "well there are also people who need to hear (normal) chemisty for college so doing that less to make room for other stuff wouldn't be good either" kind of argument.

I did my advanced course in mathematics because I figured I'd study maths at university and skipping out on maths because "you don't need any of that in life later on, better get something practical" would have been horrible. Which was the point I was trying to make: as long as you do have those kind of things available for the "normal" classes, allowing people to thin out stuff shouldn't be an issue.
<Elem> >toad in charge of judging lewdness <Elem> how bad can it be <Elem> also wew, that is actually p lewd.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-07 22:36:33
July 07 2017 22:35 GMT
#160629
On July 08 2017 07:19 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Education in the U.S. is hyper-heterogeneous because of how heavily localized it is. Even public schools have enormous variance in their course offerings based upon how much funding they have, state laws, and local schoolboard decisions. I needed to take two semesters of practical arts, one of home ec, one of personal finance, one of health, and a semester of government to get a high school diploma where I grew up, but that's because of the state I grew up in and the huge amount of resources my school had available because the tax base was big allowing me to take pretty much whatever over the summer along with a bunch of other advanced courses to make me satisfy requirements AND look good to colleges.

Being a schoolboard member is probably the best way to cause some positive change in your community if you can stomach it (and plan to be around for a while). Often times just having competent people can be hugely beneficial, regardless of political leanings.


The school I went to outperformed a school 30 minutes away by like...400%. I think my high school had a larger athletics budget than some entire districts. We built a new high school for no reason at all. Our old high school was like miles ahead of so many others even 30 minutes away.

If it were somehow possible to just donate a school, it would have been an amazing thing for a lot of people. Kind of tragic now that I think back to it. Lots of people would have gladly drove their kids to our old high school...
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23803 Posts
July 07 2017 23:27 GMT
#160630
My high school was/is majority minority, one of the biggest in the state, and graduates ~3/4 students, but only about 1/5 are proficient at math. ~1/2 are reading and writing at grade level, and most of the students qualify for free/reduced lunch.

Anywhere from 5-20% of the teachers are in their first/second year (in a given year). And many teachers are actually sports coaches who "teach" to supplement their income.

The school on the other side of the district is a completely different story.

Did anyone else here go to a school where the majority of students qualified for free/reduced lunch?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
July 07 2017 23:52 GMT
#160631
Today’s Washington is overrun by two kinds of crimes.

The first is the still-speculative kind, which the Washington press corps obsesses over— Trump -Russia collusion, obstruction of justice—despite no evidence of its existence. By all accounts, special counsel Robert Mueller’s growing team of Democratic lawyers intends to devote itself to this fiction.

Yet if Mr. Mueller were serious about bringing down a threat to the nation, or even carving himself a place in history, he’d be tackling the second kind of crime, the real kind. These are the crimes that occur constantly and actually harm national security, even if they’re routinely ignored by a self-interested media. We are talking of course about the serial leaking of sensitive information, the daily profession of a new government elite akin to an organized crime network.

Lucky for Mr. Mueller, he doesn’t even need his army of legal investigators to get an immediate handle on this mafia. He can instead stroll down to the Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Government Affairs. That’s the purview of Sen. Ron Johnson, who keeps dogged oversight of government among his many self-set tasks.

That mission resulted this week in a shocking staff analysis of the recent deluge of secret-spilling, and the manner in which these unauthorized disclosures are harming national security. It’s the first congressional scrutiny of the leaks—and notable for its straight-up nature. This is no partisan document. It’s a bloodless accounting of a national-security failure, perpetrated by dozens of government employees willfully breaking the law.

The first 126 days of the Trump administration featured 125 stories that leaked harmful information. Just under one a day. The committee staff judged the stories against a 2009 Barack Obama executive order that laid out what counted as information likely to damage national security. And as it chose to not include borderline leaks or “palace intrigue” stories, that number is an understatement.

For reference, the first 126 days of the Obama term featured 18 stories that met the criteria. Ten of those were actually leaks about George W. Bush’s “torture memo,” which Mr. Obama released.

The Trump leaks show the sweeping nature of this enterprise, coming as they have from “U.S. officials,” “former U.S. officials,” “senior U.S. officials,” “intelligence officials,” “national security officials,” “Justice Department officials,” “defense officials” and “law-enforcement officials.” One story cited more than two dozen anonymous sources. Alarmingly, the titles, and the nature of the information disclosed, indicate that many leaks are coming directly from the U.S. intelligence community.

What’s been disclosed? The contents of wiretapped information. The names of individuals the U.S. monitors, and where they are located. The communications channels used to monitor targets. Which agencies are monitoring. Intelligence intercepts. FBI interviews. Grand jury subpoenas. Secret surveillance-court details. Internal discussions. Military operations intelligence. The contents of the president’s calls with foreign leaders.

The analysis lays out the real and the assumed fallout. One clear example is the May stories hyperventilating that Mr. Trump shared classified intelligence with the Russians. Subsequent leaks suggested Israel provided the intelligence, about Islamic State. This revelation caused a diplomatic incident, and reportedly a change in the way Israel shares with the U.S. Even former Obama CIA Director John Brennan called the leak “appalling.”

How many foreign allies are pulling back? How many will work with a U.S. government that has disclosed military plans, weapons systems and cybersecurity tactics? What have our enemies learned? One March story divulged sensitive FBI data on U.S. border vulnerabilities, in hopes of undercutting Mr. Trump’s travel order.

The Johnson report doesn’t go here, but let’s go ourselves: This is lawbreaking, in the aid of a political hit job. The leaking syndicate can’t claim whistleblower status, since it has yet to leak a piece of evidence showing Trump wrongdoing. This is about taking out a president. And with a role model like James Comey —who wrote secret memos with the express purpose of leaking and launching a special counsel—that’s no surprise.

But as Mr. Mueller surely knows, the Espionage Act doesn’t trifle with intentions. As even the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service has noted, leaks enjoy “no First Amendment protection, regardless of the motives,” and no accused leaker “has ever been acquitted based on a finding that the public interest was so great” that it justified unlawful disclosure.

Mr. Mueller is sitting astride a leak crime wave, run by a bureaucratic underworld that is happy to harm U.S. interests if it maims a president. He can dig four years into Trump hearsay and innuendo. Or he can, more immediately, take action that would rein in the lawbreakers and restore some calm to the Capitol and the media. That’s how to really promote law and order.

WSJ
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43818 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-08 00:00:37
July 07 2017 23:56 GMT
#160632
Danglars here with your daily reminder that the problem isn't what the government is doing, it's the people telling us what the government is doing when they've been told not to.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
July 08 2017 00:07 GMT
#160633
Trump is a small fry, here and gone. Damage to our national security by unelected bureaucrats will stay long after his tenure with no cautionary tale of "you voted for this" ... because you didn't. Let's not focus like a laser on the president as this goes on. I sincerely don't want to explain to my children how bloodlust corrupted a republic and forever broke faith in our institutions.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43818 Posts
July 08 2017 00:13 GMT
#160634
And the only possible way to maintain faith in our institutions is if we never find out what those institutions are doing, right? Because there's no possible way that
1) Institution fucks up
2) Media finds out about it due to leaks
3) People hold the institution accountable for the fuckup due to the media reporting on it
could work as a system, right?

Not like that's exactly how it went down with the National Security Adviser who was a threat to national security, right?

Accountability is an important part of maintaining the integrity of institutions and transparency is a vital component in accountability. What you are complaining about is how too much information about what the institutions are doing is damaging faith in institutions. To me the opposite applies. What the institutions are actually doing is damaging my faith in them. The fact that the societal tools we have in place to ensure accountability for the fuckups of institutions are all working is the only thing that gives me faith for the future.

Sure, we may have a president who will lie to our face, but at least we know he's lying. I can't do anything about the former so I have to rely on the latter.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-08 00:42:00
July 08 2017 00:17 GMT
#160635
the bureaucrats are part of whta we elected; they were put in place by the elected officials to handle a lot of tasks; and in point of fact, they do a better job than most of the politicians on all sides.
also lol at talking about corrupting a republic and breaking faith in institutions considering what trump is; and the damage already caused by things like not giving garland a chance.
also lol at calling the position of president of the United States a small fry.

it's also laughable the number of foolish points in that article; sad that more people can't see through the problems with it, but not surprising; people believe what makes them feel better, rather than focusing on what's correct. good mockable article to post danglars; it was quite amusing :D ty for the laughter.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 08 2017 00:18 GMT
#160636
One man's unelected bureaucrat is another man's live long civil servant. I didn't buy into Rand when I read her because I can't be that cynical, so I'm the latter.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-08 00:30:31
July 08 2017 00:30 GMT
#160637
On July 08 2017 08:27 GreenHorizons wrote:
My high school was/is majority minority, one of the biggest in the state, and graduates ~3/4 students, but only about 1/5 are proficient at math. ~1/2 are reading and writing at grade level, and most of the students qualify for free/reduced lunch.

Anywhere from 5-20% of the teachers are in their first/second year (in a given year). And many teachers are actually sports coaches who "teach" to supplement their income.

The school on the other side of the district is a completely different story.

Did anyone else here go to a school where the majority of students qualified for free/reduced lunch?

I had free lunch my entire time in Oregon schools. But I was like 1 of 5 people, lol.
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-08 00:45:14
July 08 2017 00:45 GMT
#160638
My elementary school was like that, and if I had gone to school in my proper district that would've occurred later on (My mother was a teacher). It was a major difference going from a place where violence was not well... accepted, but treated as a reliable way to settle a dispute among the students, to one where the slightest physical contact made people freak out.

Some stories about how they districted my town :

They drew the high school/middle school districts in my town straight down the middle of a street, but it just so happened to be done when the wealthiest person in the town had their grand children about to go to high school. This districting resulted in there being something like 40% blacks in the new district, with about... 10 in the new high school. Not 10%, 10 (These schools had about 1000 students). The rich guy's kids were flown to school in a helicopter on a few occasions, to give an idea of the level of wealth we're discussing.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
July 08 2017 00:58 GMT
#160639
On July 08 2017 09:07 Danglars wrote:
Trump is a small fry, here and gone. Damage to our national security by unelected bureaucrats will stay long after his tenure with no cautionary tale of "you voted for this" ... because you didn't. Let's not focus like a laser on the president as this goes on. I sincerely don't want to explain to my children how bloodlust corrupted a republic and forever broke faith in our institutions.


so Putin is richer and more powerful than Trump

Is Putin the most powerful person on earth?
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14104 Posts
July 08 2017 01:41 GMT
#160640
On July 08 2017 08:27 GreenHorizons wrote:
My high school was/is majority minority, one of the biggest in the state, and graduates ~3/4 students, but only about 1/5 are proficient at math. ~1/2 are reading and writing at grade level, and most of the students qualify for free/reduced lunch.

Anywhere from 5-20% of the teachers are in their first/second year (in a given year). And many teachers are actually sports coaches who "teach" to supplement their income.

The school on the other side of the district is a completely different story.

Did anyone else here go to a school where the majority of students qualified for free/reduced lunch?

I think the last time I checked it was 60-70 percent of my school was free lunch. It was also 97.8 percent white European. No real industry just your every day third teir suburb that lives beacuse its attractive to city professionals. Literaly going down the highway you wouldn't know it but there are hundreds of 200-400k houses in that town hidden by a massive treeline on one side of the bridge while the other side is the old town and a lot of trailer parks.

Also hold the titled for most estimated meth production and per capita cock fighting in all of Minnesota.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
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