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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
ZerOCoolSC2
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
8983 Posts
July 07 2017 14:55 GMT
#160521
On July 07 2017 23:51 Buckyman wrote:
Pro Publica found the explanation for the Trump deportation mess:

Show nested quote +

The head of the Immigration and Customs Enforcement unit in charge of deportations has directed his officers to take action against all undocumented immigrants they may cross paths with, regardless of criminal histories. The guidance appears to go beyond the Trump administration’s publicly stated aims, and some advocates say may explain a marked increase in immigration arrests.

In a February memo, Matthew Albence, a career official who heads the Enforcement and Removal Operations division of ICE, informed his 5,700 deportation officers that, “effective immediately, ERO officers will take enforcement action against all removable aliens encountered in the course of their duties.”

Show nested quote +

The ICE memo acknowledges that space in detention facilities limits the number of undocumented immigrants who can be detained upon apprehension. Still, it says ICE officials are mandated to begin deportation proceedings against all undocumented immigrants with whom they cross paths — even if those apprehended remain free as they face an immigration judge, a process that can take years.

(emphasis added)

(source)

In other words, Trump said "remove these categories of illegal immigrants" and the top career immigration official added "and all the rest of them too", apparently without consulting Trump or John Kelly.

Follows the "Kill them all and let God sort them out" logic. Would make sense if you consider some of the stories about families being torn apart because they're illegal immigrants. Most of them are centered around Hispanic and Latino races.
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-07 14:59:35
July 07 2017 14:56 GMT
#160522
All this NKorea news worries me. I can't help but feel that if we ignore them they will continue to be a non threat. Their primary agenda is self preservation and as long as we throw some supplies their way every so often they stay quiet. Plus I'm confident in our ability to neutralize their missles.
ZerOCoolSC2
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
8983 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-07 15:00:00
July 07 2017 14:57 GMT
#160523
On July 07 2017 23:52 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2017 23:15 Plansix wrote:
I pay people to do landscaping and take down trees. Not because I can’t do it, but because it is worth the money for the added free time. One of these engineers was shocked spent I a weekend cleaning out my gutters and removing some prolific mold from our roof. He simply assumed that the gutters would be designed well enough not need to be cleaned and it was obviously a flaw with the house. So, yeah, I don’t have this super high opinion of STEM degrees as the be all end all.


Sounds like an opportunity for better engineering and architecture though STEM can help with that!

I'm available for hire ^_^
I disagree. Much as people hate oil it does power the world economy.

For now anyway. The problem with oil is that we use it for more than just making gasoline. Every machine that works, is based off of oil keeping the parts running smoothly so wear and tear doesn't break it down. Transformers are filled with oil to prevent fire and explosion. There's a lot that oil controls and we're stuck with it until someone decides to use vegetable based oil for literally everything.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-07 15:01:41
July 07 2017 15:00 GMT
#160524
I doubt the head of ICE acted alone. Don't forget Trump's campaign promises.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 07 2017 15:02 GMT
#160525
On July 07 2017 23:50 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2017 23:32 Plansix wrote:
I am being a bit hyperbolic. I know a few PHDs in English and other practices that are equally helpless providing themselves with food and shelter. They are a bit arrogant to about the degrees too, but never get to the level where they are shitting on a engineering degree as being useless. My irritation with STEM mostly comes from the culture that their education is of greater value of humanity than all other educations.


Medicine, computation and energy are pretty hard to beat. I think the issue is creating 2 distinct sides as if it is as simple as humanities and STEM. Petroleum engineering, for example, is very technical but doesn't have the same nobility as pharmaceutical chemistry or physics. I would say a psychologist has a much higher net contribution to the world than a petroleum engineer.

The civil rights movement won equality through community organization and the power of words, both written and spoke. Woman’s suffrage was the same. Our democracy was argued for in prose. The merits of rational through process that is the foundation of science were and still are argued by students of the humanities. All that stuff is dope as fuck and shouldn’t be ignored just because STEM cured polio and built the airplane. The humanities champion science, science should do the same for the humanities.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
July 07 2017 15:06 GMT
#160526
I would put psychologists in the same realm as a medical profession but if tomorrow all petroleum engineers disappeared, there is a good change that half the world would starve to death in a years time and electricity will have to be rationed. So, I understand what you are saying Mohdoo, but no.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
July 07 2017 15:06 GMT
#160527
Coefficients of economic inequality across households within states have been available from the Bureau of Economic Analysis on an annual basis only since 2000. Before that, sample sizes in the Current Population Survey made measuring inequality in small states problematic, since a state with population of (say) half a million might have as few as one hundred households represented in a national sample survey of 60,000 families. So data at the required level of detail were available only from the decennial census. This raised an issue of comparative measurement through time, especially since election years coincide with census years only once every two decades.

To deal with this issue, Travis Hale and I used the detailed annual measures of the Employment and Earnings database of the Bureau of Labor Statistics to construct annual measures of pay inequality that could be calibrated to the Census measures of income inequality, and we showed that these measures generate reliable annual estimates of state-level income inequality back to 1969. In recent weeks Jaehee Choi has extended Hale's measures by a decade to 2014, giving us an uninterrupted panel matrix of 2295 inequality measures for 51 states (including DC) over 45 years.

There are two ways to look at this data. One is to compare election outcomes to the current level of inequality in each state, and to ask: did the more egalitarian states have a tendency to choose one candidate over the other? The other approach, accessible only through a data set of the type just described, is to look at changes in inequality over time, and to ask, did states where inequality grew more have a tendency to choose one candidate over the other? Economists are especially drawn to the second approach, because it washes out (“controls for”) differences in the level of inequality across states that may be due to some timeless historical factors. For instance, a state with large cities and wealthy industries (such as international banking) is likely to have a baseline of inequality quite different from a wheat- or corn-growing state on the Great Plains.

In this case, both approaches generate a similar, striking result. A simple correlation between the level of inequality in each state and the vote share of one candidate in that state is 0.60. And the correlation between inequality changes and vote share is even higher: about 0.69 for the case of the changes from 1990 to 2014; depending on base year chosen the correlation fluctuates up to a maximum of about 0.71. This means that a large share of the election outcome across the states can be explained solely by the relative degree of rising inequality within each state over a quarter-century, give or take.

A somewhat surprising result

Using our measure of pay inequality, which avoids any distortion associated with making a conversion to income inequality measures, the fourteen states with the largest increases in inequality after 1990 without exception voted for Hillary Clinton.1 These fourteen included almost all of the large states that Clinton carried, including California, New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Virginia and Illinois. The largest Clinton state below the top fourteen is Washington, and after that, Minnesota (which she carried by whisker); the others include Vermont and Delaware, small states embedded in regions (New England, the Mid-Atlantic) where the increase of inequality was much larger than it was in the states themselves. Vermont is not immune from economic change in New York or Massachusetts, nor is Delaware unaffected by events in New Jersey or Maryland.

New Geography

Surprising correlation coefficient.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21689 Posts
July 07 2017 15:07 GMT
#160528
On July 07 2017 23:51 Buckyman wrote:
Pro Publica found the explanation for the Trump deportation mess:

Show nested quote +

The head of the Immigration and Customs Enforcement unit in charge of deportations has directed his officers to take action against all undocumented immigrants they may cross paths with, regardless of criminal histories. The guidance appears to go beyond the Trump administration’s publicly stated aims, and some advocates say may explain a marked increase in immigration arrests.

In a February memo, Matthew Albence, a career official who heads the Enforcement and Removal Operations division of ICE, informed his 5,700 deportation officers that, “effective immediately, ERO officers will take enforcement action against all removable aliens encountered in the course of their duties.”

Show nested quote +

The ICE memo acknowledges that space in detention facilities limits the number of undocumented immigrants who can be detained upon apprehension. Still, it says ICE officials are mandated to begin deportation proceedings against all undocumented immigrants with whom they cross paths — even if those apprehended remain free as they face an immigration judge, a process that can take years.

(emphasis added)

(source)

In other words, Trump said "remove these categories of illegal immigrants" and the top career immigration official added "and all the rest of them too", apparently without consulting Trump or John Kelly.

And you assuming they do so without consulting Trump (or his administration) because?

And please don't say "Trump only said criminals" because Trumps public word is worth jack shit.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35150 Posts
July 07 2017 15:18 GMT
#160529
On July 07 2017 23:55 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2017 23:51 Buckyman wrote:
Pro Publica found the explanation for the Trump deportation mess:


The head of the Immigration and Customs Enforcement unit in charge of deportations has directed his officers to take action against all undocumented immigrants they may cross paths with, regardless of criminal histories. The guidance appears to go beyond the Trump administration’s publicly stated aims, and some advocates say may explain a marked increase in immigration arrests.

In a February memo, Matthew Albence, a career official who heads the Enforcement and Removal Operations division of ICE, informed his 5,700 deportation officers that, “effective immediately, ERO officers will take enforcement action against all removable aliens encountered in the course of their duties.”


The ICE memo acknowledges that space in detention facilities limits the number of undocumented immigrants who can be detained upon apprehension. Still, it says ICE officials are mandated to begin deportation proceedings against all undocumented immigrants with whom they cross paths — even if those apprehended remain free as they face an immigration judge, a process that can take years.

(emphasis added)

(source)

In other words, Trump said "remove these categories of illegal immigrants" and the top career immigration official added "and all the rest of them too", apparently without consulting Trump or John Kelly.

Follows the "Kill them all and let God sort them out" logic. Would make sense if you consider some of the stories about families being torn apart because they're illegal immigrants. Most of them are centered around Hispanic and Latino races.

Friend of mine that migrated young lives with it constantly over his head. His parents got themselves green cards and his sisters have all gotten married. Dude's kept himself out of trouble and got himself a good job. Going back and re-entering is pretty much a non-option for him.
Buckyman
Profile Joined May 2014
1364 Posts
July 07 2017 15:22 GMT
#160530
On July 08 2017 00:07 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2017 23:51 Buckyman wrote:
In other words, Trump said "remove these categories of illegal immigrants" and the top career immigration official added "and all the rest of them too", apparently without consulting Trump or John Kelly.

And you assuming they do so without consulting Trump (or his administration) because?

And please don't say "Trump only said criminals" because Trumps public word is worth jack shit.


I see no evidence that they did consult Trump/Kelly. Except for a Kelly memo that says not to do exactly what they're doing.
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-07 15:27:23
July 07 2017 15:22 GMT
#160531


Other reporters have confirmed that women now need to be wearing sleeves to be allowed in. Apparently it is Paul Ryan's policy.


http://www.cbsnews.com/news/are-sleeveless-dresses-appropriate-attire-congress-doesnt-think-so/


Edit : Apparently this has been policy since Tip O'Neal and Pelosi was criticized for not overturning it.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
July 07 2017 15:24 GMT
#160532
re: the man-child stuff with plansix on the last page.

Long as they can afford to pay other people to deal with it; we'll just have to roll our eyes and live with it.
At any rate, stuff like that is a failure of the lower education levels; imho a high school education should have covered the basics of taking care of yourself like that. sometimes parents don't teach that stuff to their kids, and in those cases the ed system should be able to cover it. I think we need a bit more life skills teaching in high school, and a bit less of the stuff most people forget anyways.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
ZasZ.
Profile Joined May 2010
United States2911 Posts
July 07 2017 15:25 GMT
#160533
On July 08 2017 00:22 Buckyman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 08 2017 00:07 Gorsameth wrote:
On July 07 2017 23:51 Buckyman wrote:
In other words, Trump said "remove these categories of illegal immigrants" and the top career immigration official added "and all the rest of them too", apparently without consulting Trump or John Kelly.

And you assuming they do so without consulting Trump (or his administration) because?

And please don't say "Trump only said criminals" because Trumps public word is worth jack shit.


I see no evidence that they did consult Trump/Kelly. Except for a Kelly memo that says not to do exactly what they're doing.


I don't know why you would need to see evidence that they consulted Trump. We know what would happen if ICE was acting out of accordance with POTUS, he'd treat us to a tweet storm.

There is far more evidence for Trump's practice of speaking nice enough about a particular topic, and then doing something else. Remember "no cuts to medicaid," and "everybody will be covered?"
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15689 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-07 15:27:30
July 07 2017 15:26 GMT
#160534
On July 08 2017 00:06 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
I would put psychologists in the same realm as a medical profession but if tomorrow all petroleum engineers disappeared, there is a good change that half the world would starve to death in a years time and electricity will have to be rationed. So, I understand what you are saying Mohdoo, but no.


I suppose I should add some nuance to what I am describing.

Medicine, energy generation and computation are core technological backbones of humanity. Same with societal advancement, as Plansix described. While societal advancement isn't technological, it is essential component of humanity for all the reasons Plansix describes. There is a continuity in these 4 core pursuits that will clearly continue forever. Things like investment banking, which will clearly not be relevant in 10,000 years, essentially only exist as a momentary blip of humanity. But the 4 cores that I described are timeless and we will always be on a path towards advancing those things. investment banking and petroleum engineering are only relevant now because they are needed now. There is no ultimate end to the 4 cores I am describing.

The work done in investment banking and petroleum engineering will only be relevant in 10,000 years because they helped keep the lights on while the important work was being done. Work done to understand electrons and atoms today will be some insanely simple, yet still existent, component of what we are doing in 10,000 years. Economic principles and methods of extracting oil will have no relevance whatsoever in 10,000 years.
ZasZ.
Profile Joined May 2010
United States2911 Posts
July 07 2017 15:28 GMT
#160535
On July 08 2017 00:24 zlefin wrote:
re: the man-child stuff with plansix on the last page.

Long as they can afford to pay other people to deal with it; we'll just have to roll our eyes and live with it.
At any rate, stuff like that is a failure of the lower education levels; imho a high school education should have covered the basics of taking care of yourself like that. sometimes parents don't teach that stuff to their kids, and in those cases the ed system should be able to cover it. I think we need a bit more life skills teaching in high school, and a bit less of the stuff most people forget anyways.


100% correct. High-school, especially towards the end, should focus far less on requiring every academic subject be studied. Let juniors and seniors choose if they care about advanced mathematics, chemistry, etc., but force them to take basic taxation, accounting, financial, civics, and home economics classes. It's astonishing how many people my age (29, rather old for these forums) have no idea how credit cards work.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
July 07 2017 15:30 GMT
#160536

Russian spies are ramping up their intelligence-gathering efforts in the US, according to current and former US intelligence officials who say they have noticed an increase since the election.

The officials say they believe one of the biggest US adversaries feels emboldened by the lack of a significant retaliatory response from both the Trump and Obama administrations.

"Russians have maintained an aggressive collection posture in the US, and their success in election meddling has not deterred them," said a former senior intelligence official familiar with Trump administration efforts.

Russians could also be seeking more information on Trump's administration, which is new and still unpredictable to Moscow, according to Steve Hall, retired CIA chief of operations.


www.cnn.com
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15689 Posts
July 07 2017 15:34 GMT
#160537
On July 08 2017 00:28 ZasZ. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 08 2017 00:24 zlefin wrote:
re: the man-child stuff with plansix on the last page.

Long as they can afford to pay other people to deal with it; we'll just have to roll our eyes and live with it.
At any rate, stuff like that is a failure of the lower education levels; imho a high school education should have covered the basics of taking care of yourself like that. sometimes parents don't teach that stuff to their kids, and in those cases the ed system should be able to cover it. I think we need a bit more life skills teaching in high school, and a bit less of the stuff most people forget anyways.


100% correct. High-school, especially towards the end, should focus far less on requiring every academic subject be studied. Let juniors and seniors choose if they care about advanced mathematics, chemistry, etc., but force them to take basic taxation, accounting, financial, civics, and home economics classes. It's astonishing how many people my age (29, rather old for these forums) have no idea how credit cards work.


I disagree. We should be holding high-schoolers to much higher standards because they are simply not equipped to make these decisions at their age. I only passed 2 science classes while I was in high school and just failed everything else. Barely made it out of basic algebra. I never thought I'd be remotely capable of being a scientist or engineer of any sort, so I just kind of chose not to. That hurt me a lot when I finally decided I was capable of it. I know not everyone is as much of a dipshit as I was in high school, but quite a few are. An 18 year old is NOT capable of planning their lives and quite frankly I think schooling should be required beyond 18. I think 18 is a very poorly defended age of adulthood or whatever. Does anyone here regard their 18 year old self as even slightly capable of long term planning? I am sure upbringing plays a big role, since mine was a complete joke, but I get the feeling my situation is not uncommon. I had friends who knew they were going to be a programmer. Came from rich families who coached them how to plan life etc. But I didn't have that and a lot of people don't.
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
July 07 2017 15:36 GMT
#160538



Also, Trump is meeting with Putin right now. Their meeting is going like an hour over schedule

zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
July 07 2017 15:43 GMT
#160539
On July 08 2017 00:34 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 08 2017 00:28 ZasZ. wrote:
On July 08 2017 00:24 zlefin wrote:
re: the man-child stuff with plansix on the last page.

Long as they can afford to pay other people to deal with it; we'll just have to roll our eyes and live with it.
At any rate, stuff like that is a failure of the lower education levels; imho a high school education should have covered the basics of taking care of yourself like that. sometimes parents don't teach that stuff to their kids, and in those cases the ed system should be able to cover it. I think we need a bit more life skills teaching in high school, and a bit less of the stuff most people forget anyways.


100% correct. High-school, especially towards the end, should focus far less on requiring every academic subject be studied. Let juniors and seniors choose if they care about advanced mathematics, chemistry, etc., but force them to take basic taxation, accounting, financial, civics, and home economics classes. It's astonishing how many people my age (29, rather old for these forums) have no idea how credit cards work.


I disagree. We should be holding high-schoolers to much higher standards because they are simply not equipped to make these decisions at their age. I only passed 2 science classes while I was in high school and just failed everything else. Barely made it out of basic algebra. I never thought I'd be remotely capable of being a scientist or engineer of any sort, so I just kind of chose not to. That hurt me a lot when I finally decided I was capable of it. I know not everyone is as much of a dipshit as I was in high school, but quite a few are. An 18 year old is NOT capable of planning their lives and quite frankly I think schooling should be required beyond 18. I think 18 is a very poorly defended age of adulthood or whatever. Does anyone here regard their 18 year old self as even slightly capable of long term planning? I am sure upbringing plays a big role, since mine was a complete joke, but I get the feeling my situation is not uncommon. I had friends who knew they were going to be a programmer. Came from rich families who coached them how to plan life etc. But I didn't have that and a lot of people don't.


My 18 y/o self was highly capable of long term planning; of course I had a supportive upbringing, and a personality that favors it.
historically lots of 18 y/os were quite capable of long term planning; whether you can do things depends alot on training; giving them the training to look after themselves is more valuable than a lot of other stuff. a lot of stuff taught in school simply isn't that relevant and is forgotten afterwards.

your situation may be common; but that's all the more reason to have school step in to provide that kind of training for people who don't get it at home. and as long as high school is the highest level a fair number of people get to; then we should make sure it's done by then (or some of it even earlier in jr high and elementary)
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 07 2017 15:48 GMT
#160540
On July 08 2017 00:43 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 08 2017 00:34 Mohdoo wrote:
On July 08 2017 00:28 ZasZ. wrote:
On July 08 2017 00:24 zlefin wrote:
re: the man-child stuff with plansix on the last page.

Long as they can afford to pay other people to deal with it; we'll just have to roll our eyes and live with it.
At any rate, stuff like that is a failure of the lower education levels; imho a high school education should have covered the basics of taking care of yourself like that. sometimes parents don't teach that stuff to their kids, and in those cases the ed system should be able to cover it. I think we need a bit more life skills teaching in high school, and a bit less of the stuff most people forget anyways.


100% correct. High-school, especially towards the end, should focus far less on requiring every academic subject be studied. Let juniors and seniors choose if they care about advanced mathematics, chemistry, etc., but force them to take basic taxation, accounting, financial, civics, and home economics classes. It's astonishing how many people my age (29, rather old for these forums) have no idea how credit cards work.


I disagree. We should be holding high-schoolers to much higher standards because they are simply not equipped to make these decisions at their age. I only passed 2 science classes while I was in high school and just failed everything else. Barely made it out of basic algebra. I never thought I'd be remotely capable of being a scientist or engineer of any sort, so I just kind of chose not to. That hurt me a lot when I finally decided I was capable of it. I know not everyone is as much of a dipshit as I was in high school, but quite a few are. An 18 year old is NOT capable of planning their lives and quite frankly I think schooling should be required beyond 18. I think 18 is a very poorly defended age of adulthood or whatever. Does anyone here regard their 18 year old self as even slightly capable of long term planning? I am sure upbringing plays a big role, since mine was a complete joke, but I get the feeling my situation is not uncommon. I had friends who knew they were going to be a programmer. Came from rich families who coached them how to plan life etc. But I didn't have that and a lot of people don't.


My 18 y/o self was highly capable of long term planning; of course I had a supportive upbringing, and a personality that favors it.
historically lots of 18 y/os were quite capable of long term planning; whether you can do things depends alot on training; giving them the training to look after themselves is more valuable than a lot of other stuff. a lot of stuff taught in school simply isn't that relevant and is forgotten afterwards.

your situation may be common; but that's all the more reason to have school step in to provide that kind of training for people who don't get it at home. and as long as high school is the highest level a fair number of people get to; then we should make sure it's done by then (or some of it even earlier in jr high and elementary)

You clearly have not interacted with a lot of 18 year olds recently. Long term planning isn’t a thing they do or have every really done.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
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