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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On July 07 2017 21:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Yeah let's not make sweeping generalizations about how college students are necessarily lazy or don't need to work hard... This can also easily devolve into "Let's talk about why Major 1 is a real major but Major 2 is for lazy idiots".
We can just cut right to the end of that discussion:
STEM: Ground break visionary education adding endless value to humanity off of the brilliance of those willing to study it.
Humanities: Fluffy non-disciplines made up by snowflakes who refuse to believe what they care about has no value to humanity any more.
This is how all these arguments end on the internet.
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On July 07 2017 21:49 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2017 21:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Yeah let's not make sweeping generalizations about how college students are necessarily lazy or don't need to work hard... This can also easily devolve into "Let's talk about why Major 1 is a real major but Major 2 is for lazy idiots". We can just cut right to the end of that discussion: STEM: Ground break visionary education adding endless value to humanity off of the brilliance of those willing to study it. Humanities: Fluffy non-disciplines made up by snowflakes who refuse to believe what they care about has no value to humanity any more. This is how all these arguments end on the internet.
I agree with you that that's probably where this conversation is heading lol. And I'm on the STEM team too, as are (I think) a disproportionately high percentage of TL members 
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An estimated 222,000 jobs were added to the U.S. economy in June, according to the monthly employment report released by the Bureau of Labor Statistics Friday.
The unemployment rate rose slightly to 4.4 percent from 4.3 percent — a 16-year low that was hit in May.
"Since January, the unemployment rate and the number of unemployed are down by 0.4 percentage point and 658,000, respectively," the BLS says.
Source
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Sounds like a pretty good mix of professions here. Not expecting law school to be easy .
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I have a humanities undergraduate degree and STEM master's. In terms of difficulty I don't think there's any difference. If anything it is harder to achieve strong grades in the humanities because the grading is so subjective, but STEM provides you with disproportionately useful skills. By and large you won't come out of a humanities degree with more skills/life experience than you would from an internship followed by two years of work. And some degrees are entirely useless and are only applied in artificial, unnecessary jobs. The good news is that these pointless degrees are relatively inexpensive for the universities to run, so they draw funding for the more useful ones.
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"Pointless degrees" was meant to be a joke. The term is thrown around by a lot when people don’t know why the degree exists in the first place. Useful skills is also pretty subjective. I known quite a few engineers barely had the life skills to feed themselves.
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On July 07 2017 22:45 Plansix wrote:
"Pointless degrees" was meant to be a joke. Useful skills is also pretty subjective. I known quite a few engineers barely had the life skills to feed themselves.
but did they have the ability to earn enough money to pay people to do that stuff for them?
teaching basic life skills is really more of a high school thing anyways than university.
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What kind of life skills are you talking about? This isn't the navigating the bizarre world of American credit skill is it? or are you talking about social skills?
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On July 07 2017 22:53 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2017 22:45 Plansix wrote:
"Pointless degrees" was meant to be a joke. Useful skills is also pretty subjective. I known quite a few engineers barely had the life skills to feed themselves. but did they have the ability to earn enough money to pay people to do that stuff for them? teaching basic life skills is really more of a high school thing anyways than university.
The few I did know who had that problem were known as a man-child: A grown man who did not learn to do anything of the thing his parents did for him, but managed to make enough money to pay people to make up for it. The older I get, the more irritating those people have become.
On July 07 2017 22:56 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
What kind of life skills are you talking about? This isn't the navigating the bizarre world of American credit skill is it? or are you talking about social skills?
Knowing how to cook food, iron a shirt, dress like an adult, not be completely overwhelmed by helping to plan a funeral, find childcare that isn’t terrible, find a doctor.
This is my personal experience obviously. But these same people were all about preaching the greatness of STEM degrees over all other forms of learning. Its hard to take that seriously when I knew they couldn’t make an omelet without burning it.
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On July 07 2017 22:56 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
What kind of life skills are you talking about? This isn't the navigating the bizarre world of American credit skill is it? or are you talking about social skills?
Probably means the simple things you do today i.e cooking, cleaning, shopping for food.
The few I did know who had that problem were known as a man-child: A grown man who did not learn to do anything of the thing his parents did for him, but managed to make enough money to pay people to make up for it. The older I get, the more irritating those people have become.
Ah, I know those people as well. They just, exist. It's as if they can't be bothered to do anything that "normal" people do. They either eat out all the time or microwave their meals. Or they have someone else cook for them. Luckily for me growing up in lower middle-class middle America, you were raised and taught those lessons early on.
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But that's ideal . Provide employment while avoiding doing activities you don't like.
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I pay people to do landscaping and take down trees. Not because I can’t do it, but because it is worth the money for the added free time. One of these engineers was shocked spent I a weekend cleaning out my gutters and removing some prolific mold from our roof. He simply assumed that the gutters would be designed well enough not need to be cleaned and it was obviously a flaw with the house. So, yeah, I don’t have this super high opinion of STEM degrees as the be all end all.
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I don't know, isn't it supposed to be the high mark of an education that you can pay somebody else to do all the things you rather not be doing? I don't know why you are pointing a lack of cooking skills towards STEM degrees though. I would feel insulted in any degree worth their salt of they spent any time teaching you how to cook an omelet or buy food and iron clothes. Leave that kind of stuff to the parents. In my experience, the few people who can't cook or do household chores are everywhere no matter what level or type of education they have. But in my personal experience, most engineers are more than happy to do a bit of DIY. Btw, you can get some leaf guard for your gutters. They are great.
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the real suckers are all those engineers and lawyers who are basically tools for companies/people to use rather than working on their own shit . . .
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I am being a bit hyperbolic. I know a few PHDs in English and other practices that are equally helpless providing themselves with food and shelter. They are a bit arrogant to about the degrees too, but never get to the level where they are shitting on a engineering degree as being useless. My irritation with STEM mostly comes from the culture that their education is of greater value of humanity than all other educations.
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I definitely am glad for the writing skills gained from a humanities degree. That is useful in any profession.
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On July 07 2017 23:32 Plansix wrote:
I am being a bit hyperbolic. I know a few PHDs in English and other practices that are equally helpless providing themselves with food and shelter. They are a bit arrogant to about the degrees too, but never get to the level where they are shitting on a engineering degree as being useless. My irritation with STEM mostly comes from the culture that their education is of greater value of humanity than all other educations.
Medicine, computation and energy are pretty hard to beat. I think the issue is creating 2 distinct sides as if it is as simple as humanities and STEM. Petroleum engineering, for example, is very technical but doesn't have the same nobility as pharmaceutical chemistry or physics. I would say a psychologist has a much higher net contribution to the world than a petroleum engineer.
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Pro Publica found the explanation for the Trump deportation mess:
The head of the Immigration and Customs Enforcement unit in charge of deportations has directed his officers to take action against all undocumented immigrants they may cross paths with, regardless of criminal histories. The guidance appears to go beyond the Trump administration’s publicly stated aims, and some advocates say may explain a marked increase in immigration arrests.
In a February memo, Matthew Albence, a career official who heads the Enforcement and Removal Operations division of ICE, informed his 5,700 deportation officers that, “effective immediately, ERO officers will take enforcement action against all removable aliens encountered in the course of their duties.”
The ICE memo acknowledges that space in detention facilities limits the number of undocumented immigrants who can be detained upon apprehension. Still, it says ICE officials are mandated to begin deportation proceedings against all undocumented immigrants with whom they cross paths — even if those apprehended remain free as they face an immigration judge, a process that can take years.
(emphasis added)
(source)
In other words, Trump said "remove these categories of illegal immigrants" and the top career immigration official added "and all the rest of them too", apparently without consulting Trump or John Kelly.
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On July 07 2017 23:15 Plansix wrote:
I pay people to do landscaping and take down trees. Not because I can’t do it, but because it is worth the money for the added free time. One of these engineers was shocked spent I a weekend cleaning out my gutters and removing some prolific mold from our roof. He simply assumed that the gutters would be designed well enough not need to be cleaned and it was obviously a flaw with the house. So, yeah, I don’t have this super high opinion of STEM degrees as the be all end all.
Sounds like an opportunity for better engineering and architecture though  STEM can help with that!
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On July 07 2017 23:50 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2017 23:32 Plansix wrote:
I am being a bit hyperbolic. I know a few PHDs in English and other practices that are equally helpless providing themselves with food and shelter. They are a bit arrogant to about the degrees too, but never get to the level where they are shitting on a engineering degree as being useless. My irritation with STEM mostly comes from the culture that their education is of greater value of humanity than all other educations. Medicine, computation and energy are pretty hard to beat. I think the issue is creating 2 distinct sides as if it is as simple as humanities and STEM. Petroleum engineering, for example, is very technical but doesn't have the same nobility as pharmaceutical chemistry or physics. I would say a psychologist has a much higher net contribution to the world than a petroleum engineer.
I disagree. Much as people hate oil it does power the world economy.
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EPT
