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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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Slydie
1917 Posts
On June 18 2017 04:15 On_Slaught wrote: Chances he's contemplating firing Mueller still? A special investigator, chosen with solid bipartisan support, fired by a man he is investigating? That is the way of a true dictator, and it should be a sure path to impeachment, and possibly mass protests. | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On June 18 2017 04:15 On_Slaught wrote: Chances he's contemplating firing Mueller still? 100% chance that he's still contemplating firing Mueller. I'd personally put the odds at 30-70 that he actually goes through with it though. My mind says he can't possibly be that stupid, but Trump's past actions have shown him to have hardly a shadow of foresight or critical thinking skills, so I really can't put it out of the realm of possibility. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On June 18 2017 04:15 On_Slaught wrote: Chances he's contemplating firing Mueller still? 100%. Firing people and breaking deals is how Trump did buisness in the past and it worked for him. Everything that he has done so far has been him running the White House like he ran his companies. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On June 18 2017 01:53 xDaunt wrote: Hiding the fact that you have a gun from the cop is probably the dumbest thing that you can do. Cops know whether people have concealed carry permits as soon as they pull people over and run the plates. Anyway, it looks like the root problem with the Castile shooting is that the cop thought that Castile was a suspect from an armed bank robbery. That, combined with Castile likely being sloppy with his hands and the cop being a little bit dumb and edgy, resulted in Castile getting shot. I'm not sure that the shooting arises to criminal conduct (particularly in the light of the applicable criminal statute), but I'm sure that the cop and the police department got slaughtered civilly. And the department training improves as a result of the lost civil suit and all this press. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On June 18 2017 01:53 xDaunt wrote: Hiding the fact that you have a gun from the cop is probably the dumbest thing that you can do. Cops know whether people have concealed carry permits as soon as they pull people over and run the plates. Anyway, it looks like the root problem with the Castile shooting is that the cop thought that Castile was a suspect from an armed bank robbery. That, combined with Castile likely being sloppy with his hands and the cop being a little bit dumb and edgy, resulted in Castile getting shot. I'm not sure that the shooting arises to criminal conduct (particularly in the light of the applicable criminal statute), but I'm sure that the cop and the police department got slaughtered civilly. does the civil suit usually wait until the criminal trial is over? I seem to recall hearing that somewhere. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7888 Posts
On June 18 2017 04:47 Plansix wrote: 100%. Firing people and breaking deals is how Trump did buisness in the past and it worked for him. Everything that he has done so far has been him running the White House like he ran his companies. I have to say that one can expect anything from the guy who is under personal investigation for firing the guy who didn't want to tell publicly he was not under investigation. If we learnt anything the last months, it's that Trump learns absolutely nothing. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
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killa_robot
Canada1884 Posts
On June 18 2017 03:54 On_Slaught wrote: I'm as strong a police supporter as you'll find, yet I 100% agree with this and have always felt this way. The whole 'with great power comes great responsibility' thing seems applicable. Think that all you want, but you're objectively wrong. If a police officer dies in the line of duty, whoever killed them is alive and able to kill others. A cop who allows themselves to come into harms way is going against the common interest of the rest of society. | ||
micronesia
United States24680 Posts
On June 18 2017 05:07 killa_robot wrote: Think that all you want, but you're objectively wrong. If a police officer dies in the line of duty, whoever killed them is alive and able to kill others. A cop who allows themselves to come into harms way is going against the common interest of the rest of society. Try not to make this an either or. Mostly both of you are right. Cops need to be well trained to handle those situations to minimize the chances of killing an innocent person due to a misunderstanding of some type. Cops also need to accept personal risk to enter this line of work. The issue is with making it sound like you need to be suicidal to be in the right line of work as a cop. On the other hand, yea, the cop does need to be able to stop a criminal before the criminal can incapacitate the cop. There is no training in the world that will enable the cop to stop 100% of dangerous armed criminals and kill 0.000% of innocent people. Like all things, there needs to be a balance to minimize innocent casualties while maximizing preventing criminals from committing more crimes, all while minimizing the risk to a cop's life and health. Some recent cases have shown a poor balance, and a failure of the justice system to identify the lack of balance. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7297 Posts
Seriously though, if a cop fears for their life I'd rather them protect their lives in ways that DON'T involve taking the lives of others. Let them go. Are they a serial killer? If not they're likely not actively looking to engage in additional homicides and if a Police Officer comes face to face with someone and they bolt off at least you've established contact and can get backup to engage in safety at a later date. Being a cop should not be something that just anyone can or should do. | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
On June 18 2017 05:07 killa_robot wrote: Think that all you want, but you're objectively wrong. If a police officer dies in the line of duty, whoever killed them is alive and able to kill others. A cop who allows themselves to come into harms way is going against the common interest of the rest of society. Weighed against the mass killings of innocents, I'd take the former. Legally and morally the duty is in the cop, not the civilian, to show restraint and be in harm's way if required to protect lives. Plus, it's not like when a cop is killed they let killer go on his jolly way unharrased. See those two thugs in Georgia. | ||
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KwarK
United States42682 Posts
On June 18 2017 05:07 killa_robot wrote: Think that all you want, but you're objectively wrong. If a police officer dies in the line of duty, whoever killed them is alive and able to kill others. A cop who allows themselves to come into harms way is going against the common interest of the rest of society. That argument doesn't follow. You're advocating for the cop to shoot people who may be innocent in order to make sure guilty people can't escape and then perhaps shoot someone innocent. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On June 18 2017 05:07 killa_robot wrote: Think that all you want, but you're objectively wrong. If a police officer dies in the line of duty, whoever killed them is alive and able to kill others. A cop who allows themselves to come into harms way is going against the common interest of the rest of society. You use that word objectively like you don't understand what it means. "Police must defend themselves at all costs because they are the sole provider of safety and order" has some really dark overtones to it. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21677 Posts
On June 18 2017 05:15 Zambrah wrote: Won't all of the armed civilians just take care of it? Seriously though, if a cop fears for their life I'd rather them protect their lives in ways that DON'T involve taking the lives of others. Let them go. Are they a serial killer? If not they're likely not actively looking to engage in additional homicides and if a Police Officer comes face to face with someone and they bolt off at least you've established contact and can get backup to engage in safety at a later date. Being a cop should not be something that just anyone can or should do. That is something that always strikes me about these cop shoots innocent person when they enter the news. How badly the police act around the danger of a weapon. There is on video that always comes to mind. 911 got a call about a kid waving around a gun in a park. Police responds and an officer drives his car right up to the child. gets out of the car on the side of the child, steps past the car door and confronts the child. 2 seconds later a child with a toy gun is dead. Surely if you respond to a 'gun being waved around' scene you stop a distance away, you keep the car between yourself and the suspect and then you access the situation? step 1 is not putting yourself in a position where you have a split second to react to a deadly threat with the only possible option being a lethal first strike. Same deal here. If you suspect you have an armed robber you dont walk up to his window and place yourself in a situation where its you or him. Maintain some distance, ask him to get out of the car and put his hands on the side. It all comes down to a complete lack of proper police training. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On June 18 2017 05:07 killa_robot wrote: Think that all you want, but you're objectively wrong. If a police officer dies in the line of duty, whoever killed them is alive and able to kill others. A cop who allows themselves to come into harms way is going against the common interest of the rest of society. Taken the other way : a cop that kills innocents is going to continue to kill innocents. Society would be better off without them. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23228 Posts
On June 18 2017 05:14 micronesia wrote: Try not to make this an either or. Mostly both of you are right. Cops need to be well trained to handle those situations to minimize the chances of killing an innocent person due to a misunderstanding of some type. Cops also need to accept personal risk to enter this line of work. The issue is with making it sound like you need to be suicidal to be in the right line of work as a cop. On the other hand, yea, the cop does need to be able to stop a criminal before the criminal can incapacitate the cop. There is no training in the world that will enable the cop to stop 100% of dangerous armed criminals and kill 0.000% of innocent people. Like all things, there needs to be a balance to minimize innocent casualties while maximizing preventing criminals from committing more crimes, all while minimizing the risk to a cop's life and health. Some recent cases have shown a poor balance, and a failure of the justice system to identify the lack of balance. The funny thing is you aren't intending to be funny with that. Spoiler: + Show Spoiler + most likely person to shoot and kill a cop is himself | ||
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micronesia
United States24680 Posts
On June 18 2017 05:28 GreenHorizons wrote: Why is that funny?The funny thing is you aren't intending to be funny with that. most likely person to shoot and kill a cop is himself So? Is suicide somehow relevant to this discussion? I can think of ways it could be, but not in ways that support the point I think you are trying to make. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23228 Posts
On June 18 2017 05:40 micronesia wrote: Why is that funny? So? Is suicide somehow relevant to this discussion? I can think of ways it could be, but not in ways that support the point I think you are trying to make. That cops are more likely to kill themselves than they are to be killed by some random gunman. You'll hear all sorts of people motivated to rationalize/minimize/etc the murder of black people by state authorities because they are concerned for the cops safety, but they rarely if ever talk about the fact that they are more likely to shoot themselves than be shot by some "thug" like their paranoia suggests. Not terribly different than Trump's ban, banning people from countries who have killed less Americans on American soil in 40 years than cops have in a week. People are dumb when it comes to understanding danger. | ||
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KwarK
United States42682 Posts
On June 18 2017 05:40 micronesia wrote: Why is that funny? So? Is suicide somehow relevant to this discussion? I can think of ways it could be, but not in ways that support the point I think you are trying to make. If we accept that more cops are killed by their own guns than the guns of other people then logically cops should be barred from possessing firearms, both on and off duty, to reduce their risks of being shot. Allowing them to possess firearms puts them in harms way. Obviously the logic doesn't really work but it's conceptually funny. | ||
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micronesia
United States24680 Posts
On June 18 2017 05:49 GreenHorizons wrote: That cops are more likely to kill themselves than they are to be killed by some random gunman. You'll hear all sorts of people motivated to rationalize/minimize/etc the murder of black people by state authorities because they are concerned for the cops safety, but they rarely if ever talk about the fact that they are more likely to shoot themselves than be shot by some "thug" like their paranoia suggests. I think you are making an argument for balance the way I discussed in the earlier post. The amount of innocent people who die in interactions with police due to some combination of racial tension or racism and tactical misunderstanding needs to be compared to the amount of cops who are killed by people they interact with. If cops very rarely get blindsided and killed, but often shoot unarmed people, then yes, that is a big problem. That doesn't directly affect whether or not a specific cop committed a particular crime in a particular situation, however. Why do you find it funny that cops die by suicide more than by getting shot by criminals? Neither that nor the elevated suicide rate of cops is funny. edit: I can understand a label of ironic (using Kwark's explanation) more than funny. edit2: Oh I actually used the word suicidal lol forgive me | ||
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