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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23203 Posts
June 16 2017 05:22 GMT
#157441
On June 16 2017 14:07 ChristianS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 16 2017 13:37 LegalLord wrote:
On June 16 2017 13:34 ChristianS wrote:
On June 16 2017 13:15 LegalLord wrote:
On June 16 2017 13:10 ChristianS wrote:
Doesn't everyone here probably take a "wait for official results" philosophy with regards to criminal investigations? It seems like LL and xDaunt are trying to say "the difference between me and those damn liberals is that I believe in innocent until proven guilty, due process, habeas corpus, etc." I think most liberals do too? That doesn't mean we can't look at the evidence at hand and form our own opinions about what is or isn't likely.

"Wait for official results" isn't a position of legal opinion. It's a "shut the fuck up about speculation until there's something concrete to pin on people" position. I've seen enough public "trials" in my life to know that speculation based on partial evidence is more feels-driven than logical and creates more shit than the situation itself.

The "better than those damn liberals" point is a laughable non-sequitur.

So if news came out that a hypothetical president had recorded tapes of everyone in the white house, but then destroyed them when they got subpoenaed, it is inappropriate to speculate on whether that makes them look guilty? We should just say "I await the justice system's decision regarding this individual's innocence or guilt"?

Edit: or if you're just saying we need to wait until there's solid evidence, presumably the debate is how solid the evidence currently is.

Well do we have anything of the sort? Or just a bunch of vaguely suspicious looking stuff from a shitty president?

I'm just trying to pin down what this ethic you've expressed actually means. I mostly don't think there's anything public yet to the collusion charge, and don't know enough about the legal requirements of obstruction of justice.

But it seems like your ethic is basically that you speculate if you think there's something there and don't if you don't, which is the same thing everyone else does but you've managed to feel superior about it.


What do you or people wrapped up in this think would happen if Mueller concluded Trump did obstruct justice? Because I think we know it's nothing but people keep talking about it like something big is right around the corner, but nothing is coming.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3188 Posts
June 16 2017 05:32 GMT
#157442
On June 16 2017 14:12 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 16 2017 14:07 ChristianS wrote:
On June 16 2017 13:37 LegalLord wrote:
On June 16 2017 13:34 ChristianS wrote:
On June 16 2017 13:15 LegalLord wrote:
On June 16 2017 13:10 ChristianS wrote:
Doesn't everyone here probably take a "wait for official results" philosophy with regards to criminal investigations? It seems like LL and xDaunt are trying to say "the difference between me and those damn liberals is that I believe in innocent until proven guilty, due process, habeas corpus, etc." I think most liberals do too? That doesn't mean we can't look at the evidence at hand and form our own opinions about what is or isn't likely.

"Wait for official results" isn't a position of legal opinion. It's a "shut the fuck up about speculation until there's something concrete to pin on people" position. I've seen enough public "trials" in my life to know that speculation based on partial evidence is more feels-driven than logical and creates more shit than the situation itself.

The "better than those damn liberals" point is a laughable non-sequitur.

So if news came out that a hypothetical president had recorded tapes of everyone in the white house, but then destroyed them when they got subpoenaed, it is inappropriate to speculate on whether that makes them look guilty? We should just say "I await the justice system's decision regarding this individual's innocence or guilt"?

Edit: or if you're just saying we need to wait until there's solid evidence, presumably the debate is how solid the evidence currently is.

Well do we have anything of the sort? Or just a bunch of vaguely suspicious looking stuff from a shitty president?

I'm just trying to pin down what this ethic you've expressed actually means. I mostly don't think there's anything public yet to the collusion charge, and don't know enough about the legal requirements of obstruction of justice.

But it seems like your ethic is basically that you speculate if you think there's something there and don't if you don't, which is the same thing everyone else does but you've managed to feel superior about it.

The short version is that you should keep your head about it all. Most people don't like Trump and will believe any Billy or Bobby that says any mean thing about how much of a crook he is and how much he licks Putin's boot. This is how public trials always go.

God knows this thread has too many people who positively lose their minds at the slightest hint of a possibility of a not sure if credible leak that says that Trump did something potentially bad. That has a lot to do with simply how strongly he is disliked rather than how guilty he is. I suppose if you want fairness then you could say that the same could be said about Hillary Clinton.

And I think I and many others did say similar things about Hillary Clinton. I agree it's a standard phenomenon for people to listen to "under investigation" and hear "guilty" – as I understand it, that's part of why the FBI has that policy which has been much-publicized of late, that they don't confirm or deny the existence of an ongoing investigation until that investigation completes. The most recent big story is that Mueller is investigating Trump for obstruction of justice, and predictably, a fair number of people are cooing and planning their impeachment viewing parties, and yes, those people are counting their chickens before they even have eggs.

That said, it is fucking crazy that 5 months into his presidency a US president is already being investigated by special counsel for obstruction of justice. Even if nothing comes of it, it's symptomatic of what a trainwreck this presidency has been so far. It's also a bit more significant for how much it flies in the face of a number of Trump supporters' recent defenses, including "Trump has never been under investigation, it's all just liberal hysteria" and "obstruction of justice is a completely baseless charge that's just for riling up liberal crowds, there's no real evidence of it."
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3188 Posts
June 16 2017 05:34 GMT
#157443
On June 16 2017 14:22 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 16 2017 14:07 ChristianS wrote:
On June 16 2017 13:37 LegalLord wrote:
On June 16 2017 13:34 ChristianS wrote:
On June 16 2017 13:15 LegalLord wrote:
On June 16 2017 13:10 ChristianS wrote:
Doesn't everyone here probably take a "wait for official results" philosophy with regards to criminal investigations? It seems like LL and xDaunt are trying to say "the difference between me and those damn liberals is that I believe in innocent until proven guilty, due process, habeas corpus, etc." I think most liberals do too? That doesn't mean we can't look at the evidence at hand and form our own opinions about what is or isn't likely.

"Wait for official results" isn't a position of legal opinion. It's a "shut the fuck up about speculation until there's something concrete to pin on people" position. I've seen enough public "trials" in my life to know that speculation based on partial evidence is more feels-driven than logical and creates more shit than the situation itself.

The "better than those damn liberals" point is a laughable non-sequitur.

So if news came out that a hypothetical president had recorded tapes of everyone in the white house, but then destroyed them when they got subpoenaed, it is inappropriate to speculate on whether that makes them look guilty? We should just say "I await the justice system's decision regarding this individual's innocence or guilt"?

Edit: or if you're just saying we need to wait until there's solid evidence, presumably the debate is how solid the evidence currently is.

Well do we have anything of the sort? Or just a bunch of vaguely suspicious looking stuff from a shitty president?

I'm just trying to pin down what this ethic you've expressed actually means. I mostly don't think there's anything public yet to the collusion charge, and don't know enough about the legal requirements of obstruction of justice.

But it seems like your ethic is basically that you speculate if you think there's something there and don't if you don't, which is the same thing everyone else does but you've managed to feel superior about it.


What do you or people wrapped up in this think would happen if Mueller concluded Trump did obstruct justice? Because I think we know it's nothing but people keep talking about it like something big is right around the corner, but nothing is coming.

Then we advance to the next round of America's number one game show, "How Far Can Trump Go Before Republicans Drop Him?" The spin-off game show for Milo concluded a few months ago, and the conclusion there was advocating pedophilia. But what's their tipping point for the big man himself?
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
Leporello
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2845 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-16 06:01:16
June 16 2017 05:57 GMT
#157444
On June 16 2017 14:22 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 16 2017 14:07 ChristianS wrote:
On June 16 2017 13:37 LegalLord wrote:
On June 16 2017 13:34 ChristianS wrote:
On June 16 2017 13:15 LegalLord wrote:
On June 16 2017 13:10 ChristianS wrote:
Doesn't everyone here probably take a "wait for official results" philosophy with regards to criminal investigations? It seems like LL and xDaunt are trying to say "the difference between me and those damn liberals is that I believe in innocent until proven guilty, due process, habeas corpus, etc." I think most liberals do too? That doesn't mean we can't look at the evidence at hand and form our own opinions about what is or isn't likely.

"Wait for official results" isn't a position of legal opinion. It's a "shut the fuck up about speculation until there's something concrete to pin on people" position. I've seen enough public "trials" in my life to know that speculation based on partial evidence is more feels-driven than logical and creates more shit than the situation itself.

The "better than those damn liberals" point is a laughable non-sequitur.

So if news came out that a hypothetical president had recorded tapes of everyone in the white house, but then destroyed them when they got subpoenaed, it is inappropriate to speculate on whether that makes them look guilty? We should just say "I await the justice system's decision regarding this individual's innocence or guilt"?

Edit: or if you're just saying we need to wait until there's solid evidence, presumably the debate is how solid the evidence currently is.

Well do we have anything of the sort? Or just a bunch of vaguely suspicious looking stuff from a shitty president?

I'm just trying to pin down what this ethic you've expressed actually means. I mostly don't think there's anything public yet to the collusion charge, and don't know enough about the legal requirements of obstruction of justice.

But it seems like your ethic is basically that you speculate if you think there's something there and don't if you don't, which is the same thing everyone else does but you've managed to feel superior about it.


What do you or people wrapped up in this think would happen if Mueller concluded Trump did obstruct justice? Because I think we know it's nothing but people keep talking about it like something big is right around the corner, but nothing is coming.


Real answer is he would address this to Congress, in what would be blockbuster televsion. If Mueller gets to the point of finding the President guilty, it would be a full exposè to prove his case. But he might not present an Obstruction of Justice charge until he's done investigating the initial case of Russian-collusion.

Which, given the amount and quantity of people Mueller has hired, he is in this for the long-haul.

And if you don't think this is going to end up with a mountain of dirt on Trump, then you must've been in a coma during Whitewater.

Everyone whose last name isn't Trump should be hoping it doesn't get to that point. Nixon resigned for a reason, and it wasn't self-guilt. It was to save a lot of people a lot of embarrassment, including himself.
Big water
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17976 Posts
June 16 2017 06:56 GMT
#157445
On June 16 2017 00:21 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 16 2017 00:05 Danglars wrote:
On June 15 2017 19:23 micronesia wrote:
On June 15 2017 12:16 Danglars wrote:
I mean for god's sakes Comey might have even committed a crime leaking government property.

I've heard this proposed by @realDonaldTrump but I haven't been told anywhere what crime Comey might have committed. Do you know?

Why are Trump and his supporters discussing how it might have been a crime? Either what he released was legal to release, or it was not. I just can't wrap my head around what makes it illegal. If the president calls me while I'm at work in my government job, and tells me "the sky is red" and I write down "trump said the sky is read on x date and time on a phone call with me" and then 'leak' that memo, is that illegal? If not, then obviously the content of the released information must have been illegal to release (e.g., classified), otherwise Comey couldn't have committed a crime by leaking his memo. So, what information was in the memo that was illegal to release to the public? Perhaps it's illegal to release information Trump says that makes Trump sound bad?

You need a lawyer to see through. There's good arguments on both sides. His memos on privileged conversations made in the course of his official position in the government are subject to records acts such as 18 USC 641. It was done with the attempt to force an independent counsel. He transmitted government information and property to a private citizen for the purpose of leaking its contents to the media, which was done. Private citizens (Comey's first defense) are not free to take government property and leak it. The special counsel conducting the criminal investigation has also sought/received memos including Comey's properties for conduct of the criminal investigation. It could be expected to be part of the criminal investigation, and leaking it during the course of a criminal investigation when you have reason to believe that the special counsel may want that information, could well be obstruction. Former FBI directors should know better than to deliberately leak the contents of a government document in hopes to prompt an investigation (and maybe you say this illegal act was justified extra-judicially which is a fine point to make). Comey ALSO was asked (senate judiciary committee, under oath) if he was ever an anonymous source for leaks in the Clinton email/Russia, he said no. He was asked whether he had ever authorized others to be anonymous sources on his behalf, and Comey also said no. Was that false testimony under oath? You can google the statute (cited by a liberal Turley, good to see a few like Dershowitz coming around), his testimony, and various lawyers commenting on it beyond Trump's lawyer. I don't know how much you're interested on pursuing this on your own with an open mind, but there you have the outline and there's good arguments against too that you'll find.

The cited regulation is stealing government property, which is valid. However, that regulation bases the punishment on the value of the property that was stolen and with the intent personal gain. It specifically states using the stolen goods to be converted into personal gain. Unless Comey signs a really dope book deal during the investigation, I wouldn’t hold my breath on any AG trying to bring that charge against Comey.



Pretty sure writing your own memos of a meeting you had is not even government property to begin with. A lawyer could probably argue both ways, depending on when and where he wrote the memos.

As for what was in the memos, the "content of a conversation" is not government property (or any property), and unless it is classified or you signed an NDA for all information, can be shared by any of the participating parties, even if other involved parties don't like that.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23203 Posts
June 16 2017 07:21 GMT
#157446
On June 16 2017 14:57 Leporello wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 16 2017 14:22 GreenHorizons wrote:
On June 16 2017 14:07 ChristianS wrote:
On June 16 2017 13:37 LegalLord wrote:
On June 16 2017 13:34 ChristianS wrote:
On June 16 2017 13:15 LegalLord wrote:
On June 16 2017 13:10 ChristianS wrote:
Doesn't everyone here probably take a "wait for official results" philosophy with regards to criminal investigations? It seems like LL and xDaunt are trying to say "the difference between me and those damn liberals is that I believe in innocent until proven guilty, due process, habeas corpus, etc." I think most liberals do too? That doesn't mean we can't look at the evidence at hand and form our own opinions about what is or isn't likely.

"Wait for official results" isn't a position of legal opinion. It's a "shut the fuck up about speculation until there's something concrete to pin on people" position. I've seen enough public "trials" in my life to know that speculation based on partial evidence is more feels-driven than logical and creates more shit than the situation itself.

The "better than those damn liberals" point is a laughable non-sequitur.

So if news came out that a hypothetical president had recorded tapes of everyone in the white house, but then destroyed them when they got subpoenaed, it is inappropriate to speculate on whether that makes them look guilty? We should just say "I await the justice system's decision regarding this individual's innocence or guilt"?

Edit: or if you're just saying we need to wait until there's solid evidence, presumably the debate is how solid the evidence currently is.

Well do we have anything of the sort? Or just a bunch of vaguely suspicious looking stuff from a shitty president?

I'm just trying to pin down what this ethic you've expressed actually means. I mostly don't think there's anything public yet to the collusion charge, and don't know enough about the legal requirements of obstruction of justice.

But it seems like your ethic is basically that you speculate if you think there's something there and don't if you don't, which is the same thing everyone else does but you've managed to feel superior about it.


What do you or people wrapped up in this think would happen if Mueller concluded Trump did obstruct justice? Because I think we know it's nothing but people keep talking about it like something big is right around the corner, but nothing is coming.


Real answer is he would address this to Congress, in what would be blockbuster televsion. If Mueller gets to the point of finding the President guilty, it would be a full exposè to prove his case. But he might not present an Obstruction of Justice charge until he's done investigating the initial case of Russian-collusion.

Which, given the amount and quantity of people Mueller has hired, he is in this for the long-haul.

And if you don't think this is going to end up with a mountain of dirt on Trump, then you must've been in a coma during Whitewater.

Everyone whose last name isn't Trump should be hoping it doesn't get to that point. Nixon resigned for a reason, and it wasn't self-guilt. It was to save a lot of people a lot of embarrassment, including himself.


That's what I'm saying. Presuming Mueller had any interest in making a scene out of this (that's the opposite of what he was hired for), you really think he'd be convincing enough to change the minds of the voters for 15+ senators?

If you do, I'm curious which one's you're thinking, if not, it's mostly a waste of time. There's no election (Mueller wont be done before 18, if he is it's really less than nothing) and it's basically gossip (and has been for months now) and clearly the media has overhyped the whole thing.

It's a distraction as far as I'm concerned and it's becoming increasingly irritating. It also reminds me of this kind of non-sense.

"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
a_flayer
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Netherlands2826 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-16 10:27:07
June 16 2017 09:56 GMT
#157447
Can you guys in the US keep your little feud with Russia to yourselves, please? Why do you keep trying to impose sanctions on Europe in your legislation to put sanctions on Russia? Leave us alone.

Germany and Austria voiced sharp criticism Thursday of the latest U.S. sanctions against Moscow, saying they could affect European businesses involved in piping in Russian natural gas.

The United States Senate voted Wednesday to slap new sanctions on key sectors of Russia's economy and individuals over its interference in the 2016 U.S. election campaign and its aggression in Syria and Ukraine. The measures were attached to a bill targeting Iran.

In a joint statement, Austria's Chancellor Christian Kern and Germany's Foreign Minister Sigmar Gabriel said it was important for Europe and the United States to form a united front on the issue of Ukraine, where Russian-based separatists have been fighting government forces since 2014.

"However, we can't accept the threat of illegal and extraterritorial sanctions against European companies," the two officials said, citing a section of the bill that calls for the United States to continue to oppose the Nord Stream 2 pipeline that would pump Russian gas to Germany beneath the Baltic Sea.

Half of the cost of the new pipeline is being paid for by Russian gas giant Gazprom, while the other half is being shouldered by a group including Anglo-Dutch group Royal Dutch Shell, French provider Engie, OMV of Austria and Germany's Uniper and Wintershall.

Some Eastern European countries, including Poland and Ukraine, fear the loss of transit revenue if Russian gas supplies don't pass through their territory anymore once the new pipeline is built.

Gabriel and Kern accuse the U.S. of trying to help American natural gas suppliers at the expense of their Russian rivals. They said the possibility of fining European companies participating in the Nord Stream 2 project "introduces a completely new, very negative dimension into European-American relations," they said.

In their forceful appeal, the two officials urged the United States to back off from linking the situation in Ukraine to the question of who can sell gas to Europe.

"Europe's energy supply is a matter for Europe, and not for the United States of America," Kern and Gabriel said.

Source
When you came along so righteous with a new national hate, so convincing is the ardor of war and of men, it's harder to breathe than to believe you're a friend. The wars at home, the wars abroad, all soaked in blood and lies and fraud.
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24671 Posts
June 16 2017 10:21 GMT
#157448
On June 16 2017 15:56 Acrofales wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 16 2017 00:21 Plansix wrote:
On June 16 2017 00:05 Danglars wrote:
On June 15 2017 19:23 micronesia wrote:
On June 15 2017 12:16 Danglars wrote:
I mean for god's sakes Comey might have even committed a crime leaking government property.

I've heard this proposed by @realDonaldTrump but I haven't been told anywhere what crime Comey might have committed. Do you know?

Why are Trump and his supporters discussing how it might have been a crime? Either what he released was legal to release, or it was not. I just can't wrap my head around what makes it illegal. If the president calls me while I'm at work in my government job, and tells me "the sky is red" and I write down "trump said the sky is read on x date and time on a phone call with me" and then 'leak' that memo, is that illegal? If not, then obviously the content of the released information must have been illegal to release (e.g., classified), otherwise Comey couldn't have committed a crime by leaking his memo. So, what information was in the memo that was illegal to release to the public? Perhaps it's illegal to release information Trump says that makes Trump sound bad?

You need a lawyer to see through. There's good arguments on both sides. His memos on privileged conversations made in the course of his official position in the government are subject to records acts such as 18 USC 641. It was done with the attempt to force an independent counsel. He transmitted government information and property to a private citizen for the purpose of leaking its contents to the media, which was done. Private citizens (Comey's first defense) are not free to take government property and leak it. The special counsel conducting the criminal investigation has also sought/received memos including Comey's properties for conduct of the criminal investigation. It could be expected to be part of the criminal investigation, and leaking it during the course of a criminal investigation when you have reason to believe that the special counsel may want that information, could well be obstruction. Former FBI directors should know better than to deliberately leak the contents of a government document in hopes to prompt an investigation (and maybe you say this illegal act was justified extra-judicially which is a fine point to make). Comey ALSO was asked (senate judiciary committee, under oath) if he was ever an anonymous source for leaks in the Clinton email/Russia, he said no. He was asked whether he had ever authorized others to be anonymous sources on his behalf, and Comey also said no. Was that false testimony under oath? You can google the statute (cited by a liberal Turley, good to see a few like Dershowitz coming around), his testimony, and various lawyers commenting on it beyond Trump's lawyer. I don't know how much you're interested on pursuing this on your own with an open mind, but there you have the outline and there's good arguments against too that you'll find.

The cited regulation is stealing government property, which is valid. However, that regulation bases the punishment on the value of the property that was stolen and with the intent personal gain. It specifically states using the stolen goods to be converted into personal gain. Unless Comey signs a really dope book deal during the investigation, I wouldn’t hold my breath on any AG trying to bring that charge against Comey.



Pretty sure writing your own memos of a meeting you had is not even government property to begin with. A lawyer could probably argue both ways, depending on when and where he wrote the memos.

As for what was in the memos, the "content of a conversation" is not government property (or any property), and unless it is classified or you signed an NDA for all information, can be shared by any of the participating parties, even if other involved parties don't like that.

I think the caveat is that any document produced in the 'line of duty' at an organization like the FBI or in the DoD, even if not classified and not considered Controlled Unclassified Information (CUI), is not releasable to the public until it is approved for release to the public (for example, there is a stamp that is added that says the document is approved for unrestricted release to the public). In the FBI, who has the authority to decide what documents are releasable to the public? I'm pretty sure the director of the FBI is sufficiently senior to make that decision. Maybe ding him for not stamping the document as such before releasing it. I'm really not seeing the argument that what he did was illegal.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Silvanel
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Poland4726 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-16 11:56:20
June 16 2017 11:55 GMT
#157449
On June 16 2017 18:56 a_flayer wrote:
Can you guys in the US keep your little feud with Russia to yourselves, please? Why do you keep trying to impose sanctions on Europe in your legislation to put sanctions on Russia? Leave us alone.

Show nested quote +
Germany and Austria voiced sharp criticism Thursday of the latest U.S. sanctions against Moscow, saying they could affect European businesses involved in piping in Russian natural gas.

The United States Senate voted Wednesday to slap new sanctions on key sectors of Russia's economy and individuals over its interference in the 2016 U.S. election campaign and its aggression in Syria and Ukraine. The measures were attached to a bill targeting Iran.

In a joint statement, Austria's Chancellor Christian Kern and Germany's Foreign Minister Sigmar Gabriel said it was important for Europe and the United States to form a united front on the issue of Ukraine, where Russian-based separatists have been fighting government forces since 2014.

"However, we can't accept the threat of illegal and extraterritorial sanctions against European companies," the two officials said, citing a section of the bill that calls for the United States to continue to oppose the Nord Stream 2 pipeline that would pump Russian gas to Germany beneath the Baltic Sea.

Half of the cost of the new pipeline is being paid for by Russian gas giant Gazprom, while the other half is being shouldered by a group including Anglo-Dutch group Royal Dutch Shell, French provider Engie, OMV of Austria and Germany's Uniper and Wintershall.

Some Eastern European countries, including Poland and Ukraine, fear the loss of transit revenue if Russian gas supplies don't pass through their territory anymore once the new pipeline is built.

Gabriel and Kern accuse the U.S. of trying to help American natural gas suppliers at the expense of their Russian rivals. They said the possibility of fining European companies participating in the Nord Stream 2 project "introduces a completely new, very negative dimension into European-American relations," they said.

In their forceful appeal, the two officials urged the United States to back off from linking the situation in Ukraine to the question of who can sell gas to Europe.

"Europe's energy supply is a matter for Europe, and not for the United States of America," Kern and Gabriel said.

Source


This is great actualy. Nord Stream 2 needs to die, same as 1. Poland opposed and will keep oposing it. This is epitome of German hypocrisy. They talk about unified front, about working toghter when in fact they ignored Polish and Baltic oposition to Nord Stream. This is not about revenue, this is about politics. Nord Stream enables Russia to exert political blackmail on Poland exactly the same as they did to Ukraine. Poland already pays more than Germany for natural gas, despite transfer being cheaper due to shorter distance. If US can kill Nord Stream then all the power to them.
Pathetic Greta hater.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-16 12:06:17
June 16 2017 12:04 GMT
#157450
Sam Brody is not a real estate agent, but when his friends want to move home they get in touch to ask for advice. He is a flood impact expert in Houston – and he has plenty of work to keep him busy.

The Texas metropolis has more casualties and property loss from floods than any other locality in the US, according to data stretching back to 1960 that Brody researched with colleagues. And, he said, “Where the built environment is a main force exacerbating the impacts of urban flooding, Houston is number one and it’s not even close.”

Near the Gulf Coast, Houston is also at annual risk from hurricanes: it is now into the start of the 2017 season, which runs from this month to November. Ike, the last hurricane to hit the Houston region, caused $34bn in damage and killed 112 people across several states in September 2008.

There is little hope the situation is going to get better any time soon. Earlier this month, days after Donald Donald Trump announced the US will withdraw from the Paris accord on climate change, a new report warned that rare US floods will become the norm if emissions are not cut.

Brody, a professor in the department of marine sciences at Texas A&M University’s Galveston campus said the requests for help in Houston from people moving homes inspired him to create a forthcoming web tool so that people can type in an address and get a risk score.

“If you can see your crime statistics, shouldn’t you be able to see your flood risk also? And other risks as well, human-induced risks?” he said. The site will be named Buyers Be-Where.

In May 2015, eight people, many of them motorists, died in Harris County when a storm dropped 11in of rain in parts of the city in 10 hours.

Last year, another six lost their lives in an April storm that hurled 240bn gallons of water at the Houston area. An inch of rain fell over the county in only five minutes, with a peak of 16.7in in 12 hours.

The events damaged thousands of homes, turning major freeways into canals and piling up vehicles as if they were in a junkyard. The 2016 flood cost an estimated $2.7bn in losses and prompted more than 1,800 high water rescues.

Significant rains have always been a feature of life in south-east Texas. What bothers Brody and local environmentalists is the extent to which human activity is making things worse.

“Houston is situated in a low-lying coastal area with poorly draining soils and is subject to heavy rainfall events and storm surge events, which makes it very prone to flooding. And the climate is changing. In Galveston Bay the sea level is rising. We know the area is experiencing more heavy downpours,” Brody said.

“It pales in comparison with the other driving force, which is the built environment. If you’re going to put 4 million people in this flood-vulnerable area in a way which involves ubiquitous application of impervious surfaces, you’re going to get flooding.”

In other words: there is a lot of concrete in Houston. In 2000, 4.7 million people lived in the Houston metropolitan area. Now the population is about 6.5 million. While efforts are under way to densify and improve public transport in the urban core, much of the growth has been suburban, where houses are big and cheap and commuters drive long distances on some of the world’s widest freeways. The city keeps loosening its belt: a third ring-road cuts through exurbs some 30 miles from downtown, spurring more expansion.

To the west, idyllically named middle-class subdivisions sprout on former farmland, served by new retail complexes and multi-lane roads. Here, 3,500 square foot homes can be bought for less than $400,000, helping to explain the region’s population explosion. But it may be coming at a price – one paid downstream.

The Bayou City’s vein-like network of creeks and rivers are one of its defining features, but heavy rains turn them from subdued to seething. The Buffalo Bayou’s light brown waters meander 50 miles from west of the city through downtown to large bays in the east. The threat of catastrophic overflowing is mitigated by two dams built in the 1940s that the Army Corps of Engineers has classified as having an “extremely high risk” of failing and is now repairing.

The danger is lessened, too, by the natural defence of the western plains – but here, water-retaining grasses are being replaced by non-absorbent surfaces, which encourage water to travel downstream. Brody calculates that each new square metre of pavement in Houston on average adds $4,000 worth of flood damage.

Founded in 1992, the Katy Prairie Conservancy, a not-for-profit land trust, has a field office in bucolic land an hour’s drive from the skyscraping oil industry headquarters dotting central Houston. The Katy Prairie was once estimated at 500,000 to 750,000 acres, before Houston boomed. The Conservancy owns about 14,000 acres – an area roughly the size of Manhattan. It helps protect another 6,000, quietly working to shield fields from sprawl in a city and state better known for damaging the environment through oil and gas production than for preserving its natural resources.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10695 Posts
June 16 2017 12:04 GMT
#157451
You would have a point, if these would be the reasons for the US sanctions.
a_flayer
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Netherlands2826 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-16 12:47:06
June 16 2017 12:46 GMT
#157452
On June 16 2017 20:55 Silvanel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 16 2017 18:56 a_flayer wrote:
Can you guys in the US keep your little feud with Russia to yourselves, please? Why do you keep trying to impose sanctions on Europe in your legislation to put sanctions on Russia? Leave us alone.

Germany and Austria voiced sharp criticism Thursday of the latest U.S. sanctions against Moscow, saying they could affect European businesses involved in piping in Russian natural gas.

The United States Senate voted Wednesday to slap new sanctions on key sectors of Russia's economy and individuals over its interference in the 2016 U.S. election campaign and its aggression in Syria and Ukraine. The measures were attached to a bill targeting Iran.

In a joint statement, Austria's Chancellor Christian Kern and Germany's Foreign Minister Sigmar Gabriel said it was important for Europe and the United States to form a united front on the issue of Ukraine, where Russian-based separatists have been fighting government forces since 2014.

"However, we can't accept the threat of illegal and extraterritorial sanctions against European companies," the two officials said, citing a section of the bill that calls for the United States to continue to oppose the Nord Stream 2 pipeline that would pump Russian gas to Germany beneath the Baltic Sea.

Half of the cost of the new pipeline is being paid for by Russian gas giant Gazprom, while the other half is being shouldered by a group including Anglo-Dutch group Royal Dutch Shell, French provider Engie, OMV of Austria and Germany's Uniper and Wintershall.

Some Eastern European countries, including Poland and Ukraine, fear the loss of transit revenue if Russian gas supplies don't pass through their territory anymore once the new pipeline is built.

Gabriel and Kern accuse the U.S. of trying to help American natural gas suppliers at the expense of their Russian rivals. They said the possibility of fining European companies participating in the Nord Stream 2 project "introduces a completely new, very negative dimension into European-American relations," they said.

In their forceful appeal, the two officials urged the United States to back off from linking the situation in Ukraine to the question of who can sell gas to Europe.

"Europe's energy supply is a matter for Europe, and not for the United States of America," Kern and Gabriel said.

Source


This is great actualy. Nord Stream 2 needs to die, same as 1. Poland opposed and will keep oposing it. This is epitome of German hypocrisy. They talk about unified front, about working toghter when in fact they ignored Polish and Baltic oposition to Nord Stream. This is not about revenue, this is about politics. Nord Stream enables Russia to exert political blackmail on Poland exactly the same as they did to Ukraine. Poland already pays more than Germany for natural gas, despite transfer being cheaper due to shorter distance. If US can kill Nord Stream then all the power to them.

The angle from which your approaching it is a discussion that belongs in the EU thread. This about the US (it is the US politics thread, after all) and their approach to foreign relations. I pretty much agree with what you're saying short of the last line: the US needs to keep its nose out of European matters. They should hold no power here. Know that they would fuck over Poland every which way if it happened to suit their interests.
When you came along so righteous with a new national hate, so convincing is the ardor of war and of men, it's harder to breathe than to believe you're a friend. The wars at home, the wars abroad, all soaked in blood and lies and fraud.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
June 16 2017 12:47 GMT
#157453
Ugh. Impose sanctions due to Russian invading the Crimea see Europe groan, impose sanctions for a domestic attack on US elections, Europe groans. Christ.

Europe the international version of a wife to Uncle Sam.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
a_flayer
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Netherlands2826 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-16 14:04:34
June 16 2017 12:48 GMT
#157454
On June 16 2017 21:47 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Ugh. Impose sanctions due to Russian invading the Crimea see Europe groan, impose sanctions for a domestic attack on US elections, Europe groans. Christ.

Europe the international version of a wife to Uncle Sam.

We have to live with them. The US has no economic interests in Russia whatsoever, barely trades or anything, so if the US wants to impose sanctions and demands that Europe follows suit, we are the ones that suffer the consequences. They are our neighbor, for better or worse.

Just like the US loves to stir up shit in the Middle East, destabilizes the region in major ways, and we have to deal with the refugees pouring out of the region. Meanwhile, the US elects some douchebag that doesn't want take in any refugees at all - even if the US barely took any to begin with, further distancing themselves from the problems that they cause.

Uncle Sam the unhinged pedophile: fucks all the children, leaving them disturbed and traumatized and then lets the responsible parents deal with the mess.

User was temp banned for this post.
When you came along so righteous with a new national hate, so convincing is the ardor of war and of men, it's harder to breathe than to believe you're a friend. The wars at home, the wars abroad, all soaked in blood and lies and fraud.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
June 16 2017 12:52 GMT
#157455
Complaining about US policy and then being completely incapable of doing anything themselves is the corner stone of EU foreign policy. You blame the people across the ocean in public, but then are privately thankful you don’t have to be responsible for anything.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
June 16 2017 12:54 GMT
#157456
On June 16 2017 21:47 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Ugh. Impose sanctions due to Russian invading the Crimea see Europe groan, impose sanctions for a domestic attack on US elections, Europe groans. Christ.

Europe the international version of a wife to Uncle Sam.


The US wants to sanction European companies for their dealings in Europe... Just so the US can increase their liquid gas sales in Europe... Why would any European groan about that... hmmmm maybe you can find the connection...
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
June 16 2017 13:11 GMT
#157457






"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
June 16 2017 13:19 GMT
#157458
If the sanctions on natural gas are deal breakers, then the US should try and work with the EU to correct that. Or at least find a short term solution if it increases costs.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
June 16 2017 13:23 GMT
#157459
He's going all in on the Rosenstein blaming angle, hmm. Probably more likely he fires him than Sessions at this point.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
June 16 2017 13:25 GMT
#157460
In other news one the biggest companies in the US, Amazon, just bought Whole Foods.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
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