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On May 21 2017 08:31 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2017 08:20 Plansix wrote:
If you think single payer is is a hard sell simply because of massive campaign donations, you may not have been paying attention since 2010. The entire republican congress got elected running against a weak version of health care reform with some tax increases. The ACA may get repealed and then we are back to people getting denied healthcare because got hit by a car when they were 11.
Personally I want them to patch up the ACA and then move on to election reform. We have only been focusing on healthcare for nearly a decade and there are other problems that need addressing. Education, increased wages, regulating airlines, updating consumer protection laws for companies like Facebook and Google, holy god reforming wall street so it isn't a dumpster fire. There are other things that need to be dealt with. If you have universal policies like social security, medicare, public education, it's much more difficult to sabotage because they are very popular and help almost everyone. Health insurance basically should not exist, if the insurance companies were literally gone and replaced with a single payer program it'd become much more difficult to sabotage because you wouldn't have this influential faction of corporations constantly lobbying for relaxed regulation. What the Dems constantly offer as policies are basically bandaids to damage caused by an unregulated capitalist economy. They offer no structural solutions to these problems other than trying to remove the sharp edges.
I'm form a rural, poor section of my state where everyone is pretty much on government support in some way or another. Those people do not like the concept of government healthcare and it is a HARD sell. They represent a large part of this country. This isn't the EU, Americans have an irrational fear the government and equally irrational trust in cooperation.
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On May 21 2017 08:33 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2017 08:28 a_flayer wrote:On May 21 2017 08:20 Plansix wrote:
If you think single payer is is a hard sell simply because of massive campaign donations, you may not have been paying attention since 2010. The entire republican congress got elected running against a weak version of health care reform with some tax increases. The ACA may get repealed and then we are back to people getting denied healthcare because got hit by a car when they were 11.
Personally I want them to patch up the ACA and then move on to election reform. We have only been focusing on healthcare for nearly a decade and there are other problems that need addressing. Education, increased wages, regulating airlines, updating consumer protection laws for companies like Facebook and Google, holy god reforming wall street so it isn't a dumpster fire. There are other things that need to be dealt with. We saw in the DNC e-mails that the big money donations help determine the platform that politicians run on, so that sets the message that gets spread from the politicians' side of things. On top of that, the advertisement campaigns paid for by those same companies put ideas in people heads, and then so the "problem" comes at them from two sides. People end up going "Well, everywhere people are saying...". It's fucking bullshit, dude. People here kept saying how stupid Trump voters are - well, how about we stop the stupid people from being subjected to the retard television ads with nonsensical messages that basically help them ruin their own lives, and the lives of their fellow Americans to boot. The problem of people not accepting otherwise sensible solutions exists in the money that is being used to influence their poor little idiotic minds. What part of election reform in my post confused you? Or are you so angry you didn't bother to read and just went off on your typical "fuck the DNC" rant?
Replace the DNC with the Republicans and the exact same problem applies. US politics are basically religious institutions at this point (the Republican base still largely supports Trump regardless of all his idiotic behaviour). So when their politicians are saying something, they will basically listen to it as gospel. If you want the message they sell to stop being utterly retarded, you have to take away the part that forms the message.
Are you so blind to your own preferred political party that you can't help but think I am 'ranting against the DNC' simply because I am using them as an example for something corrosive that exists in the whole of US politics? Or did I confuse you by mentioning both the DNC and Trump voters in the same post?
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The "15 trillion dollars!?!?", the "but the Republicans don't want it",and the "it's not really the contributions" is amazing/depressing. Like how dense are people? Republicans like single payer MORE than ACA, taxes go up because you have NO HEALTHCARE PREMIUMS, and give me a god damn break about thinking the hundreds of millions of dollars isn't a primary factor, more so than it being hard to sell to say the least.
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On May 21 2017 08:38 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2017 08:31 Grumbels wrote:On May 21 2017 08:20 Plansix wrote:
If you think single payer is is a hard sell simply because of massive campaign donations, you may not have been paying attention since 2010. The entire republican congress got elected running against a weak version of health care reform with some tax increases. The ACA may get repealed and then we are back to people getting denied healthcare because got hit by a car when they were 11.
Personally I want them to patch up the ACA and then move on to election reform. We have only been focusing on healthcare for nearly a decade and there are other problems that need addressing. Education, increased wages, regulating airlines, updating consumer protection laws for companies like Facebook and Google, holy god reforming wall street so it isn't a dumpster fire. There are other things that need to be dealt with. If you have universal policies like social security, medicare, public education, it's much more difficult to sabotage because they are very popular and help almost everyone. Health insurance basically should not exist, if the insurance companies were literally gone and replaced with a single payer program it'd become much more difficult to sabotage because you wouldn't have this influential faction of corporations constantly lobbying for relaxed regulation. What the Dems constantly offer as policies are basically bandaids to damage caused by an unregulated capitalist economy. They offer no structural solutions to these problems other than trying to remove the sharp edges. I'm form a rural, poor section of my state where everyone is pretty much on government support in some way or another. Those people do not like the concept of government healthcare and it is a HARD sell. They represent a large part of this country. This isn't the EU, Americans have an irrational fear the government and equally irrational trust in cooperation.
You and me are talking political economy and the difficulties of selling taxes. The other guys are talking Marxist 'everyone has false consciousness because of money'. I am out. This isn't an evidence based discussion that marks to reality.
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I'd gladly write a bill for single payer that can pass CBO scoring to not increase the deficit. dunno why bernie didn't write up a plan that won't up the deficit, it's surely feasible ot do so.
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The scoring (more so the reporting) was largely disingenuous on Bernie's bill, but I would welcome Democrats presenting their own single payer plan (of course they have no interest in that though).
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On May 21 2017 08:41 JW_DTLA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2017 08:38 Plansix wrote:On May 21 2017 08:31 Grumbels wrote:On May 21 2017 08:20 Plansix wrote:
If you think single payer is is a hard sell simply because of massive campaign donations, you may not have been paying attention since 2010. The entire republican congress got elected running against a weak version of health care reform with some tax increases. The ACA may get repealed and then we are back to people getting denied healthcare because got hit by a car when they were 11.
Personally I want them to patch up the ACA and then move on to election reform. We have only been focusing on healthcare for nearly a decade and there are other problems that need addressing. Education, increased wages, regulating airlines, updating consumer protection laws for companies like Facebook and Google, holy god reforming wall street so it isn't a dumpster fire. There are other things that need to be dealt with. If you have universal policies like social security, medicare, public education, it's much more difficult to sabotage because they are very popular and help almost everyone. Health insurance basically should not exist, if the insurance companies were literally gone and replaced with a single payer program it'd become much more difficult to sabotage because you wouldn't have this influential faction of corporations constantly lobbying for relaxed regulation. What the Dems constantly offer as policies are basically bandaids to damage caused by an unregulated capitalist economy. They offer no structural solutions to these problems other than trying to remove the sharp edges. I'm form a rural, poor section of my state where everyone is pretty much on government support in some way or another. Those people do not like the concept of government healthcare and it is a HARD sell. They represent a large part of this country. This isn't the EU, Americans have an irrational fear the government and equally irrational trust in cooperation. You and me are talking political economy and the difficulties of selling taxes. The other guys are talking Marxist 'everyone has false consciousness because of money'. I am out. This isn't an evidence based discussion that marks to reality.
It is just yelling and crying about the DNC with no solutions. Its magical thinking 101, "We need to get rid of the DNC and win with a real progressive agenda and then the evil election donations will go away!!!!" Because one can win election with the unfocused mess that is the far left.
The real plan is to take back the house, undo the damage the GOP inflicted and then fix gerrymandering in 2020 if we are lucky. And then election reform and regulating super PACs. We can fix primary system too, if the progressive left wants a piece of that.
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On May 21 2017 08:41 JW_DTLA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2017 08:38 Plansix wrote:On May 21 2017 08:31 Grumbels wrote:On May 21 2017 08:20 Plansix wrote:
If you think single payer is is a hard sell simply because of massive campaign donations, you may not have been paying attention since 2010. The entire republican congress got elected running against a weak version of health care reform with some tax increases. The ACA may get repealed and then we are back to people getting denied healthcare because got hit by a car when they were 11.
Personally I want them to patch up the ACA and then move on to election reform. We have only been focusing on healthcare for nearly a decade and there are other problems that need addressing. Education, increased wages, regulating airlines, updating consumer protection laws for companies like Facebook and Google, holy god reforming wall street so it isn't a dumpster fire. There are other things that need to be dealt with. If you have universal policies like social security, medicare, public education, it's much more difficult to sabotage because they are very popular and help almost everyone. Health insurance basically should not exist, if the insurance companies were literally gone and replaced with a single payer program it'd become much more difficult to sabotage because you wouldn't have this influential faction of corporations constantly lobbying for relaxed regulation. What the Dems constantly offer as policies are basically bandaids to damage caused by an unregulated capitalist economy. They offer no structural solutions to these problems other than trying to remove the sharp edges. I'm form a rural, poor section of my state where everyone is pretty much on government support in some way or another. Those people do not like the concept of government healthcare and it is a HARD sell. They represent a large part of this country. This isn't the EU, Americans have an irrational fear the government and equally irrational trust in cooperation. You and me are talking political economy and the difficulties of selling taxes. The other guys are talking Marxist 'everyone has false consciousness because of money'. I am out. This isn't an evidence based discussion that marks to reality.
Hah, it's almost literally: "people who support universal health care are communists", this from a self-professed liberal.
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On May 21 2017 08:45 GreenHorizons wrote:
The scoring (more so the reporting) was largely disingenuous on Bernie's bill, but I would welcome Democrats presenting their own single payer plan (of course they have no interest in that though).
disingenuous how? does it differ from the CBO scoring for Bernie's bill?
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On May 21 2017 08:45 GreenHorizons wrote:
The scoring (more so the reporting) was largely disingenuous on Bernie's bill, but I would welcome Democrats presenting their own single payer plan (of course they have no interest in that though).
I said I was out. But I can't stop. You know there is a real Democratic plan that would actually make things better, right? It doesn't have your single payer talisman though, so I guess the house progressive caucus are a bunch of neoliberal sellouts, amirite? I think your game is just a troll game. You aren't serious about progress. This is just an elaborate performance art where you try to demonstrate that you are the leftiest outsider there is.
https://cpc-grijalva.house.gov/the-peoples-budget-a-roadmap-for-the-resistance-fy-2018/
The people's budget is a mix of taxes on externalities and capital, with some significant outlays on infrastructure and direct jobs programs. It includes the necessary ACA fixes and a public option. I skimmed it, I like almost everything in there. Could the taxes be unnecessarily high? Yeah, I think the USA could run a higher deficit than what they proposed. But that is a quibble, not an objection.
Net policy adjustments (primary) -175(2017) -30(2018) 464(2019)
http://www.epi.org/publication/the-peoples-budget-analysis-of-the-congressional-progressive-caucus-budget-for-fiscal-year-2018/
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least surprising story ever
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He plagiarized the ACLU. You can't make this shit up.
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On May 21 2017 08:51 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2017 08:45 GreenHorizons wrote:
The scoring (more so the reporting) was largely disingenuous on Bernie's bill, but I would welcome Democrats presenting their own single payer plan (of course they have no interest in that though). disingenuous how? does it differ from the CBO scoring for Bernie's bill?
I should have remembered better. There was no CBO score. But from what I remember there was a lot of reporting around the 10 year cost without mentioning that was over ten years or what that spending really means, etc...
I could probably find some examples of the scaremongering/reporting if you really don't remember what I'm talking about.
On May 21 2017 08:57 JW_DTLA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2017 08:45 GreenHorizons wrote:
The scoring (more so the reporting) was largely disingenuous on Bernie's bill, but I would welcome Democrats presenting their own single payer plan (of course they have no interest in that though). I said I was out. But I can't stop. You know there is a real Democratic plan that would actually make things better, right? It doesn't have your single payer talisman though, so I guess the house progressive caucus are a bunch of neoliberal sellouts, amirite? I think your game is just a troll game. You aren't serious about progress. This is just an elaborate performance art where you try to demonstrate that you are the leftiest outsider there is. https://cpc-grijalva.house.gov/the-peoples-budget-a-roadmap-for-the-resistance-fy-2018/The people's budget is a mix of taxes on externalities and capital, with some significant outlays on infrastructure and direct jobs programs. It includes the necessary ACA fixes and a public option. I skimmed it, I like almost everything in there. Could the taxes be unnecessarily high? Yeah, I think the USA could run a higher deficit than what they proposed. But that is a quibble, not an objection. Net policy adjustments (primary) -175(2017) -30(2018) 464(2019) http://www.epi.org/publication/the-peoples-budget-analysis-of-the-congressional-progressive-caucus-budget-for-fiscal-year-2018/
That's better than what they've been saying. Remember just a little over 100 days ago the leader of the Democratic party had still been operating under the proclamation that single payer will "never, ever come to pass" and is now running what will likely be a gigantic dark money superPAC.
So forgive me if I'm a bit skeptical about their plans to implement some of the reasonable looking bullet points.
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On May 21 2017 09:06 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2017 08:51 zlefin wrote:On May 21 2017 08:45 GreenHorizons wrote:
The scoring (more so the reporting) was largely disingenuous on Bernie's bill, but I would welcome Democrats presenting their own single payer plan (of course they have no interest in that though). disingenuous how? does it differ from the CBO scoring for Bernie's bill? I should have remembered better. There was no CBO score. But from what I remember there was a lot of reporting around the 10 year cost without mentioning that was over ten years or what that spending really means, etc... I could probably find some examples of the scaremongering/reporting if you really don't remember what I'm talking about.
how can there not be a CBO scoring? why didn't they?
he's a sitting senator; he submits a bill and the CBO has to score it, right?
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On May 21 2017 07:49 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
ok. your aware their bad sources. yeah I assume their wrong or massively overexaggerating.
You might be aware they are bad sources, but they've been cited before as if real or credible. I hope this helps stop that.
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On May 21 2017 09:08 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2017 09:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 21 2017 08:51 zlefin wrote:On May 21 2017 08:45 GreenHorizons wrote:
The scoring (more so the reporting) was largely disingenuous on Bernie's bill, but I would welcome Democrats presenting their own single payer plan (of course they have no interest in that though). disingenuous how? does it differ from the CBO scoring for Bernie's bill? I should have remembered better. There was no CBO score. But from what I remember there was a lot of reporting around the 10 year cost without mentioning that was over ten years or what that spending really means, etc... I could probably find some examples of the scaremongering/reporting if you really don't remember what I'm talking about. how can there not be a CBO scoring? why didn't they? he's a sitting senator; he submits a bill and the CBO has to score it, right?
Because he never actually wrote a bill. It was a campaign proposal that outside think tanks scored. There was never a CBO scoring. The CBO scores far fewer bills than you might think. I can't even find a CBO scoring for the Dem's People's Budgets.
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There is a process for when bills are submitted to the CBO. I am sure the bill has to make it out of committee before it can be scored.
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i would be interested if the single payer proponents actually put forward a practical, deficit neutral-ish plan instead of blaming inaction by the people who actually get shit done because of corporate interests/ dark money/ neoliberalism/ etc. alas, in the tens of thousands of posts here that has not occurred.
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On May 21 2017 10:11 ticklishmusic wrote:
i would be interested if the single payer proponents actually put forward a practical, deficit neutral-ish plan instead of blaming inaction by the people who actually get shit done because of corporate interests/ dark money/ neoliberalism/ etc. alas, in the tens of thousands of posts here that has not occurred.
Nationalize negotiations and guidelines. Don't pay for medicines that are uneconomical on a societal level if it would go over budget to fund them. Basically decrease the top level treatments being paid for and promote check ups to treat things before those are needed.
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On May 21 2017 10:33 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2017 10:11 ticklishmusic wrote:
i would be interested if the single payer proponents actually put forward a practical, deficit neutral-ish plan instead of blaming inaction by the people who actually get shit done because of corporate interests/ dark money/ neoliberalism/ etc. alas, in the tens of thousands of posts here that has not occurred. Nationalize negotiations and guidelines. Don't pay for medicines that are uneconomical on a societal level if it would go over budget to fund them. Basically decrease the top level treatments being paid for and promote check ups to treat things before those are needed.
Make medical treatment and drugs cheaper by lowering prices and don't pay for treatment that isn't necessary. We understand that. That is the goal, not how we get there.
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EPT
