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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
May 12 2017 19:47 GMT
#150341
I think based on the support for trumps healthcare bill we have a better idea of his core support - 19-21%. That's the % willing to support anything he endorses, even if it is almost certainly bad for them (the very rich may benefit in the short term, but considering it will totally kill the insurance industry it is readymade recession fuel on top of having murderous provisions and punishing rape victims).
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
May 12 2017 19:47 GMT
#150342
On May 13 2017 04:22 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 13 2017 04:19 biology]major wrote:
On May 13 2017 04:06 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On May 13 2017 01:38 biology]major wrote:
On May 13 2017 01:34 hunts wrote:
On May 13 2017 01:29 prplhz wrote:
On May 12 2017 23:49 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Is there a legitimate cause for impeachment proceedings to begin yet? Or are we waiting for something bigger than what has surfaced thus far?

You don't actually need a legitimate cause (whatever that means), impeachment is a purely political question. If you can get the votes, you don't need to prove anything. It's constitutional to successfully impeach a president for no reason at all.

Impeachment shouldn't be done lightly though. First of all it can backfire (Clinton got a popularity surge through his impeachment, Andrew Johnson not so much but there wasn't a second attempt at him) and second of all it does damage not only to the president but to the office and the nation itself. I really hope this talk of impeachment just kind of stops for now because for the moment it's unrealistic and it shouldn't be rushed.


I think the talk of impeachment needs to continue until either donnie dipshit is impeached, or until republicans lose all public support for failing to impeach him. I don't think there is any reason to stop talking about his russia ties or his conflicts of interest or his other crimes, and certainly no reason to stop talking about removing him.


This type of overreaction will seriously hurt the democrats.

Your country is sliding towards authoritarianism at full speed and you think democrats are overreacting?


First of all, the only people who can control trump are the republicans. Trump has his base and they won't abandon him no matter what, it's a cult following rn. I imagine after this week alot of the obama voters who voted for trump are probably off the trump train. The democrats need to do their best to not appear partisan, but as usual they can't resist by calling for impeachment and whatever other nonsense. Unfortunately, I don't see the republicans doing anything, cause they are partisan hacks as well.


So what are democrats supposed to do right now?

Pick a few key battles to fight and ensure that people properly appreciate the scope of those specific problems. As opposed to just aimlessly opposing.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
May 12 2017 19:48 GMT
#150343
I think convincing evidence could sink Trump, he probably has a floor of 20-25%.
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
May 12 2017 19:53 GMT
#150344
On May 13 2017 04:47 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 13 2017 04:22 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On May 13 2017 04:19 biology]major wrote:
On May 13 2017 04:06 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On May 13 2017 01:38 biology]major wrote:
On May 13 2017 01:34 hunts wrote:
On May 13 2017 01:29 prplhz wrote:
On May 12 2017 23:49 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Is there a legitimate cause for impeachment proceedings to begin yet? Or are we waiting for something bigger than what has surfaced thus far?

You don't actually need a legitimate cause (whatever that means), impeachment is a purely political question. If you can get the votes, you don't need to prove anything. It's constitutional to successfully impeach a president for no reason at all.

Impeachment shouldn't be done lightly though. First of all it can backfire (Clinton got a popularity surge through his impeachment, Andrew Johnson not so much but there wasn't a second attempt at him) and second of all it does damage not only to the president but to the office and the nation itself. I really hope this talk of impeachment just kind of stops for now because for the moment it's unrealistic and it shouldn't be rushed.


I think the talk of impeachment needs to continue until either donnie dipshit is impeached, or until republicans lose all public support for failing to impeach him. I don't think there is any reason to stop talking about his russia ties or his conflicts of interest or his other crimes, and certainly no reason to stop talking about removing him.


This type of overreaction will seriously hurt the democrats.

Your country is sliding towards authoritarianism at full speed and you think democrats are overreacting?


First of all, the only people who can control trump are the republicans. Trump has his base and they won't abandon him no matter what, it's a cult following rn. I imagine after this week alot of the obama voters who voted for trump are probably off the trump train. The democrats need to do their best to not appear partisan, but as usual they can't resist by calling for impeachment and whatever other nonsense. Unfortunately, I don't see the republicans doing anything, cause they are partisan hacks as well.


So what are democrats supposed to do right now?

Pick a few key battles to fight and ensure that people properly appreciate the scope of those specific problems. As opposed to just aimlessly opposing.

That would require strategic thinking which I'm fairly sure is beyond the democratic party. I would rather than oppose everything than oppose nothing, which seem to be the only two approaches they are capable of.
brian
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States9641 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-12 19:55:04
May 12 2017 19:53 GMT
#150345
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
May 12 2017 19:53 GMT
#150346
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
May 12 2017 19:55 GMT
#150347
On May 13 2017 04:53 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
https://twitter.com/owillis/status/862370051059593216

If this is the quinnipac poll from yesterday, note that it was done before the firing of Comey which will almost definitely affect polling.
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
May 12 2017 19:57 GMT
#150348
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
May 12 2017 20:01 GMT
#150349
Trump has straight up made an enemy of the entire intelligence and federal law enforcement community.

And again, this is why business people shouldn’t be fast tracked to high office.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22344 Posts
May 12 2017 20:03 GMT
#150350
On May 13 2017 05:01 Plansix wrote:
Trump has straight up made an enemy of the entire intelligence and federal law enforcement community.

And again, this is why business people shouldn’t be fast tracked to high office.

There are plenty of smart business people who would adept pretty quick to high office.

Trump is not one of them.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
May 12 2017 20:13 GMT
#150351
On May 13 2017 05:03 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 13 2017 05:01 Plansix wrote:
Trump has straight up made an enemy of the entire intelligence and federal law enforcement community.

And again, this is why business people shouldn’t be fast tracked to high office.

There are plenty of smart business people who would adept pretty quick to high office.

Trump is not one of them.

The vast majority of business owners I know and have worked for or with have been walking embodiments of the dunning kruger effect. That creating your own business is like obtaining super powers. Of course that is not true across the board, but the US culture lionizes CEO’s and heads of companies as visionaries.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
May 12 2017 20:22 GMT
#150352
The lawyers who wrote a letter saying President Trump had no significant business ties to Russia work for a law firm that has extensive ties to Russia and received a “Russia Law Firm of the Year” award in 2016.

Sheri Dillon and William Nelson, tax partners at the law firm Morgan, Lewis & Bockius, which has served as tax counsel to Trump and the Trump Organization since 2005, wrote a letter in March released by the White House on Friday stating that a review of the last 10 years of Trump’s tax returns “do not reflect” ties to Russia “with a few exceptions.”

In 2016, however, Chambers & Partners, a London-based legal research publication, named the firm “Russia Law Firm of the Year” at its annual awards dinner. The firm celebrated the “prestigious honor” in a press release on its website, noting that the award is “the latest honor for the high-profile work performed by the lawyers in Morgan Lewis’ Moscow office.”

According to the firm’s website, its Moscow office includes more than 40 lawyers and staff who are “well known in the Russian market, and have a deep familiarity with the local legislation, practices, and key players.” The firm boasts of being “particularly adept” at advising clients on “sanction matters."

Following the release of the letter, Sen. Chris Murphy (D-Conn) noted the firm’s connection to Russia, calling it “unreal."

Asked if there could be other business ties between Trump and Russian partners, Sheri Dillon told ABC News that “the letter speaks for itself.”

As for the firm’s presence in Russia, a firm spokesperson said that no lawyers from Morgan Lewis have handling any business dealings for Mr. Trump in Russia.

Dillon has never been to Russia and does no work there, the spokesperson said.

Jack Blum, a Washington tax lawyer who is an expert on white-collar financial crime and international tax evasion, called the Dillon letter “meaningless.”

Blum told ABC News that real estate projects, in particular, can be structured with partners and subsidiaries so that it would be easy to shield the identity of all involved. Trump’s tax returns would not show where all the money came from to finance these projects, he said.

“There’s no substance to it. The letter is just another puff of smoke,” Blum said. “It has no meaning at all. It’s just another way to not answer the question.”


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
May 12 2017 20:23 GMT
#150353
On May 13 2017 05:01 Plansix wrote:
Trump has straight up made an enemy of the entire intelligence and federal law enforcement community.

And again, this is why business people shouldn’t be fast tracked to high office.



and the states he barely won by denying funding

"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-12 20:27:01
May 12 2017 20:26 GMT
#150354
Denying disaster relief funding to Penn and NC; two states which voted for him. That can only help Republicans im 2018 in sure.
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-12 20:32:55
May 12 2017 20:31 GMT
#150355
On May 13 2017 05:22 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
The lawyers who wrote a letter saying President Trump had no significant business ties to Russia work for a law firm that has extensive ties to Russia and received a “Russia Law Firm of the Year” award in 2016.

Sheri Dillon and William Nelson, tax partners at the law firm Morgan, Lewis & Bockius, which has served as tax counsel to Trump and the Trump Organization since 2005, wrote a letter in March released by the White House on Friday stating that a review of the last 10 years of Trump’s tax returns “do not reflect” ties to Russia “with a few exceptions.”

In 2016, however, Chambers & Partners, a London-based legal research publication, named the firm “Russia Law Firm of the Year” at its annual awards dinner. The firm celebrated the “prestigious honor” in a press release on its website, noting that the award is “the latest honor for the high-profile work performed by the lawyers in Morgan Lewis’ Moscow office.”

According to the firm’s website, its Moscow office includes more than 40 lawyers and staff who are “well known in the Russian market, and have a deep familiarity with the local legislation, practices, and key players.” The firm boasts of being “particularly adept” at advising clients on “sanction matters."

Following the release of the letter, Sen. Chris Murphy (D-Conn) noted the firm’s connection to Russia, calling it “unreal."

Asked if there could be other business ties between Trump and Russian partners, Sheri Dillon told ABC News that “the letter speaks for itself.”

As for the firm’s presence in Russia, a firm spokesperson said that no lawyers from Morgan Lewis have handling any business dealings for Mr. Trump in Russia.

Dillon has never been to Russia and does no work there, the spokesperson said.

Jack Blum, a Washington tax lawyer who is an expert on white-collar financial crime and international tax evasion, called the Dillon letter “meaningless.”

Blum told ABC News that real estate projects, in particular, can be structured with partners and subsidiaries so that it would be easy to shield the identity of all involved. Trump’s tax returns would not show where all the money came from to finance these projects, he said.

“There’s no substance to it. The letter is just another puff of smoke,” Blum said. “It has no meaning at all. It’s just another way to not answer the question.”


Source

This is the essence of comedy, if it wasn't a news report, if it wasn't Donald Trump, I would swear it was made up.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-12 20:51:20
May 12 2017 20:47 GMT
#150356
On May 13 2017 04:19 biology]major wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 13 2017 04:06 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On May 13 2017 01:38 biology]major wrote:
On May 13 2017 01:34 hunts wrote:
On May 13 2017 01:29 prplhz wrote:
On May 12 2017 23:49 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Is there a legitimate cause for impeachment proceedings to begin yet? Or are we waiting for something bigger than what has surfaced thus far?

You don't actually need a legitimate cause (whatever that means), impeachment is a purely political question. If you can get the votes, you don't need to prove anything. It's constitutional to successfully impeach a president for no reason at all.

Impeachment shouldn't be done lightly though. First of all it can backfire (Clinton got a popularity surge through his impeachment, Andrew Johnson not so much but there wasn't a second attempt at him) and second of all it does damage not only to the president but to the office and the nation itself. I really hope this talk of impeachment just kind of stops for now because for the moment it's unrealistic and it shouldn't be rushed.


I think the talk of impeachment needs to continue until either donnie dipshit is impeached, or until republicans lose all public support for failing to impeach him. I don't think there is any reason to stop talking about his russia ties or his conflicts of interest or his other crimes, and certainly no reason to stop talking about removing him.


This type of overreaction will seriously hurt the democrats.

Your country is sliding towards authoritarianism at full speed and you think democrats are overreacting?


First of all, the only people who can control trump are the republicans. Trump has his base and they won't abandon him no matter what, it's a cult following rn. I imagine after this week alot of the obama voters who voted for trump are probably off the trump train. The democrats need to do their best to not appear partisan, but as usual they can't resist by calling for impeachment and whatever other nonsense. Unfortunately, I don't see the republicans doing anything, cause they are partisan hacks as well.


unfortauntely; politics is politics; and it's to the advantage of individual politicians to aggressively attack trump, even if a cooperative effort to slow-play it would work better. a classic tragedy of the commons situation, ultimately founded in the inability of voters to favor correct behavior.
and the inability of people to recognize how to setup the system to reward better behavior.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
May 12 2017 21:37 GMT
#150357
And now Congress is sending letters requesting clarification about Trump’s tweet and tapes of conversations. Because Congress can totally get that if it exists.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
May 12 2017 21:57 GMT
#150358
I would recognize a crisis if it were happening.

When the president seized me, stunned me with his venom and covered me with digestive fluid from his chelicerae, I was initially taken aback, but I reassured myself with this thought: President Richard Nixon never did that.

I know history.

This is clearly not the end of the world. That would be more clearly labeled and would be brought about by the other party. And the weather would be more ominous. Ravens would squawk, and the sky would turn red. It would not occur on a Tuesday when I had made other plans.

Okay, the firing of FBI Director James Comey looked bad. And when the president stunned him, pierced him with his fangs, wrapped him in a thick cocoon of impenetrable webbing and left him to hang there for days, that timing was also poor. It doesn’t seem as though it was what the FBI wanted or what the deputy attorney general wanted, either. But the American people voted for change! And the president is not Nixon. Nixon fired people on a Saturday, whereas this happened on a Tuesday.

He does not sweat and look pale on TV, which Nixon always did. Also, history plainly states that Nixon was born in 1913, one of several siblings, whereas the president was born in 1946, one of 3,000 eggs. Already we are seeing huge discrepancies! Nixon had only two legs.

Nixon was married to a woman named Pat who wore Republican cloth coats. I think we can agree that we are talking about someone different. Come back when he is threatening people with secret “tapes” of his conversations when our leader has adopted a small dog named Checkers, and then we will see where we stand.

This has none of the historical signs of a crisis. We still believe in small government, and that doesn’t have to change because the person or entity presiding over it happens to be a giant spider.

I think of the many norms that are still going strong as the digestive acid begins to eat its way through my flag pin.

We got an appointee for the Supreme Court! That, already, is a great accomplishment.

If this were a real crisis, there would be no other news. An alert would go over the TV. It would say, “Democracy Alert!” and make an unpleasant sound. In the meantime, I’m glad those Unicorn Frappuccinos are gone.

But the background music has not crescendoed. I look out the window, and the sun is shining. On the television the colorful heads are speaking as they have always spoken, and they are still not in agreement. I think. It is getting harder to see in here, and I feel a curious warmth spreading through all my appendages. I would not feel this way if something really serious were going on. The polls would reflect it, too.

I am still getting what I wanted. It is good to have someone in the Oval Office who shares my values: covering everything with giant webs, eating flies and restoring our relationship with Russia. I think I once had other values but, well, winning is winning.

Also, we have yet to see what this will become. We don’t know that a special prosecutor is called for.

It is quite possible that the thing spewing its webbing everywhere in the Oval Office is not in its final form. Perhaps it will ultimately look like Merrick Garland. We should wait. Really, everything depends on the next move. Which will, of course, set the terms for the move after that. All of which we must contemplate and look into.

It’s very dark.

If we are ever in a point of real crisis, I will be the hero the country requires. I know that about myself. But in the meantime, I stand behind the president, who I am positive is not literally Nixon.

Besides, if it were really bad, Paul Ryan would say something.

I want to sleep.

If this were a crisis, something would be done by someone. A hero would emerge. Not one of these people I am used to working with, with whose flaws and biases I am too well acquainted, but a real hero, unimpeachable. Me, perhaps.

If there were an occasion, I would be rising to it. But I am not rising.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
May 12 2017 22:52 GMT
#150359
This would coincide with the leak that he is furious at watching the nightly news and comics.

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
May 12 2017 23:00 GMT
#150360
Note the source
DEFENDERS OR ENABLERS?
Let’s start at the beginning: The president of the United States said that part of his reason for firing the top federal investigator was his handling of a criminal probe into the president’s election campaign.

In the same interview with NBC News, President Trump even said that he had asked former FBI Director James Comey whether the investigation was targeted at the president himself.

No matter what, these are serious and significant developments. If you find yourself dismissing them or focusing on misplaced partisan reactions to them, you are doing no service to Trump or the country.

Full stop.

In life and in politics there is a line between defending someone and enabling them. What is happening these days with Trump and his core supporters is getting way past defense.

In the end, if Trump is proven right, and there was no information sharing or collusion between his campaign and Kremlin-allied entities, the president’s intemperate comments will not add up to much.

All this will have been is a sorry incident in which a frustrated commander in chief lashed out against his critics, making his reputation and his staff collateral damage in the process. Also harmed will have been Trump’s agenda and the already weak bonds of trust between him and his fellow Republicans in Congress.

And that’s the best case scenario.

The darker side of the street looks like this: Democrats retake the House in 2018, investigators find that one of Trump’s underlings had been in cahoots with Putinists and Trump’s remark to Lester Holt “when I decided to [fire Comey], I said to myself, you know, this Russia thing with Trump and Russia is a made up story,” would surely make it into the articles of impeachment.

This is deadly serious stuff. And many of the president’s supporters seem either unaware or unwilling to confront the situation as it exists. Just because one thinks that Democrats are hysterical in their responses to Trump does not mean that Trump is doing the right things.

His team had been, under the adverse conditions Trump created for them, working hard to offer the best rationale for firing Comey: That the former director’s mishandling of Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton’s case left him unable to suitably lead the agency.

Whether Trump was frustrated by not getting adequate credit for toppling Comey, a man he clearly had come to despise, or if Trump did not understand the legal and communications necessities of the moment doesn’t matter. Whatever the reason, Trump harmed himself, his party and his agenda.

No matter how much his supporters want Trump to succeed, if they can’t be clear-eyed and plainspoken about the current situation things are going to get worse, not better.

The undisciplined, erratic approach to a scandal that represents mortal peril for this presidency is not primarily the fault of bad staff work, the “lying press” or Democrats. It is primarily the fault of a president who steadfastly refuses to empower his staff, show respect for the separation of powers or exhibit patience.

There will always be people who will tell the president that escapades like the one this week are a refreshing departure from stuffy old Washington and that all he really needs to do is keep kicking the walls of the barn down until he gets his way.

There will always be such people because there will always be, in any administration or organization, those willing to enable damaging behavior in order to gain power and access.

What Trump badly needs now is straight talk and honest appraisal from his advisers and supporters and desperation enough to be willing to listen.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/05/12/defenders-or-enablers.html
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