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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
April 14 2017 14:31 GMT
#146781
On April 14 2017 09:43 Amui wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2017 07:01 IgnE wrote:
it seems extremely wasteful to build and drop bombs that cost a third of a billion or fire off nearly a billion in tomahawk missles to blow up a portion of syrian airfields when we are simultaneously having a discussion about how to pay for our citizens' basic healthcare

If you actually looked at the link, the bomb that was dropped wasn't one of those, and referred to a different bomb, which was an absolutely gigantic penetrator, with a unit cost of 15 million(batch of 20). Still, it probably isn't cheap.

Also, tomahawks cost around 1.9m(see: wikipedia) each. Not cheap, but that salvo didn't add up to anywhere near a billion either.


that makes more sense actually
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15690 Posts
April 14 2017 14:33 GMT
#146782
On April 14 2017 23:30 PhoenixVoid wrote:
As far as I know there is no teacher's college equivalent for university, and a good deal of professors are there to research and write papers, not teach. Not surprising to see such a disconnect between the profs and their students when they lack the ability to engage and communicate. It gets even worse with huge class sizes.


If people need to be so engaged and entertained in order to make it through school, I think it is the student's fault.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44368 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-14 14:50:33
April 14 2017 14:45 GMT
#146783
On April 14 2017 23:33 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2017 23:30 PhoenixVoid wrote:
As far as I know there is no teacher's college equivalent for university, and a good deal of professors are there to research and write papers, not teach. Not surprising to see such a disconnect between the profs and their students when they lack the ability to engage and communicate. It gets even worse with huge class sizes.


If people need to be so engaged and entertained in order to make it through school, I think it is the student's fault.


I think it's less about entertainment and more about "If the professors aren't clarifying or explaining or adding anything useful to the course, then why bother having them at all, and instead just ask me to read the book/ follow the syllabus on my own time?" If a professor's most important contribution to a course is merely handing out the final exam, then I worry for the students. Students should definitely be proactive and eager to learn, but I also think that professors should be able and willing to help students if office hours are attended.

That being said, I assume you're just referring to college-level students. When students are younger, engagement and enthusiasm are absolutely necessary to keep them motivated.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-14 14:50:02
April 14 2017 14:49 GMT
#146784
Hence the GOP's sudden interest in attacking the Census Bureau...

New data from the U.S. Census Bureau presents the most detailed picture yet of the dramatic rise in the number of people covered by health insurance since the Affordable Care Act went into effect.

County-level data going back to 2010, when the law was signed, shows a patchwork of people living without health insurance that ticked down slowly for the first three years under the ACA. But, once the online insurance exchanges opened at the end of 2013 and Medicaid expanded, the population living without coverage dropped noticeably.

The recently released Census report is county-level data for 2015. Overall, the nationwide uninsured rate dropped 7.7 percentage points for people under 65 years old between 2010 and 2015, from 18.2 percent in 2010 to 10.5 percent in 2015.

Although the opening of the online exchanges and Medicaid expansion contributed most noticeably to the increase in the number of people with health insurance, other elements of the health care bill went into effect earlier.

For example, since 2010 the law has allowed young people to stay on their parents' health insurance until age 26.

A year-by-year breakdown of the county-level uninsured rate shows how the portion of the population with health insurance has risen as the Affordable Care Act has gone into effect. It also shows the persistent differences in insurance coverage by state and county.

According to the Census data, the U.S. counties with the top five reductions in the number of uninsured people between 2010 and 2015 are large, urban counties: Miami-Dade County, Fla., Los Angeles County, Calif., Orange County, Calif., Cook County, Ill. and Harris County, Tx.

In 2012, the Supreme Court upheld the Affordable Care Act, but gave states a choice about whether to expand Medicaid to cover more of their citizens. Under the Medicaid expansion, the federal government made money available to state governments to cover the costs of low-income people who were not previously eligible for Medicaid.

Today, 31 states and the District of Columbia have expanded Medicaid. In most of those states, the expansion took effect in 2014, when the online health insurance exchanges also went live.

As NPR's Alison Kodjak has reported, a handful of states that first rejected the expansion have since embraced it, including Louisiana and Montana.

And nationwide, a lot more poor people are covered by health insurance than were before the Affordable Care Act.

People who do not make much money, and who are less likely to have health insurance, have especially benefited. While the national uninsured rate has dropped by 6.3 points since 2013, it has dropped by 8.9 points for those below the federal poverty level and by 12 points for those between 100 and 200 percent of the federal poverty level.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42774 Posts
April 14 2017 14:55 GMT
#146785
On April 14 2017 23:29 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2017 22:44 zlefin wrote:
On university cost: I remain very suspicious of the growth of higher level management positions earning 200k+ it feels like there's too many of them. I'd like to see a full cost breakdown of universities and where exactly all the money goes.

One of the rare junctures I can agree with you. There's been an explosion of high paying administration jobs.

Most administration is done by senior faculty and senior faculty get a shitload of money by virtue of being senior faculty. Believe me, these places would run a whole lot better if they let actual staff administrators do the administration. My days are a constant battle to make senile professors in jobs that amount to an early retirement understand basic financial concepts. And I work in a STEM department.

Also University finances are public. If you want to see where the money goes, look.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-14 15:00:12
April 14 2017 14:59 GMT
#146786
On April 14 2017 23:55 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2017 23:29 Danglars wrote:
On April 14 2017 22:44 zlefin wrote:
On university cost: I remain very suspicious of the growth of higher level management positions earning 200k+ it feels like there's too many of them. I'd like to see a full cost breakdown of universities and where exactly all the money goes.

One of the rare junctures I can agree with you. There's been an explosion of high paying administration jobs.

Most administration is done by senior faculty and senior faculty get a shitload of money by virtue of being senior faculty. Believe me, these places would run a whole lot better if they let actual staff administrators do the administration. My days are a constant battle to make senile professors in jobs that amount to an early retirement understand basic financial concepts. And I work in a STEM department.

Also University finances are public. If you want to see where the money goes, look.

what do you make of the links dpm provided?

I don't mind administrators per se; but some of them seem like they're being paid too much. and they seem a lot more numerous.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3188 Posts
April 14 2017 15:08 GMT
#146787
On April 14 2017 11:28 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2017 11:21 GreenHorizons wrote:
On April 14 2017 11:10 xDaunt wrote:
Quit giving out so many loans for college, and we will magically see a stabilization and reduction in tuition cost.


Should do wonders for our already under-qualified workforce.

Sending everyone to college is a stupid idea. Subsidizing liberal arts degrees is even dumber. We need trade schools, not more academic nonsense.

The conventional wisdom is that the education at trade schools is narrow, while that of 4-years is broad. That might be an oversimplification, but given that all signs point to a lot of automation shaking up our economy in the next 20-50 years, now seens like just about the worst time to start giving people narrow skillsets rather than broad ones.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15690 Posts
April 14 2017 15:08 GMT
#146788
On April 14 2017 23:45 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2017 23:33 Mohdoo wrote:
On April 14 2017 23:30 PhoenixVoid wrote:
As far as I know there is no teacher's college equivalent for university, and a good deal of professors are there to research and write papers, not teach. Not surprising to see such a disconnect between the profs and their students when they lack the ability to engage and communicate. It gets even worse with huge class sizes.


If people need to be so engaged and entertained in order to make it through school, I think it is the student's fault.


I think it's less about entertainment and more about "If the professors aren't clarifying or explaining or adding anything useful to the course, then why bother having them at all, and instead just ask me to read the book/ follow the syllabus on my own time?" If a professor's most important contribution to a course is merely handing out the final exam, then I worry for the students. Students should definitely be proactive and eager to learn, but I also think that professors should be able and willing to help students if office hours are attended.

That being said, I assume you're just referring to college-level students. When students are younger, engagement and enthusiasm are absolutely necessary to keep them motivated.


In my experience, this is only the case in intro level classes. In upper division classes, professors are usually teaching about a subject they are involved in themselves. First year chemistry is first year chemistry and nothing will ever change that. Same with other subjects, I imagine.

The other thing is that a lot of textbooks are quite good and go into even more detail than you'd need for a lot of subjects. In many cases, a textbook contains all the same information. A professor can help you along the way by explaining things in more detail when you go into their office hour or something, but for the most part, I think the idea that people should be able to learn primarily from a textbook is fine. I've always learned well by self-teaching and then using professors for when I get stuck. It requires enthusiasm and drive, and is certainly more mentally taxing than having something carefully explained to you, but with limited resources, I guess that's just how it goes?

My lack of sympathy is mostly for people who believe a university education is you paying for someone to teaching you things rather than to provide a method for you to learn. I think it is a crucial distinction. In one case, it is up to the individual to make the most of what is provided to them. In the other, it is up to the professor to make sure students are learning. I was a very accomplished undergrad and went out of my ways to make sure of it. Meanwhile I knew people who would somewhat give up on a subject because they were able to convince themselves the professor sucked and that they were at some kind of disadvantage or something like that.

This was not an uncommon type of conversation to either hear or be a part of:

"wtf, how do you get all this?? I feel like the lectures are so confusing and poorly organized!"
"yeah, but the book did a good job at ___ and ____, and this diagram really helped"
"ah, yeah, I just can't get myself to sit down and cruise through a textbook for hours on end"

I could. Why couldn't they?
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42774 Posts
April 14 2017 15:13 GMT
#146789
On April 14 2017 23:59 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2017 23:55 KwarK wrote:
On April 14 2017 23:29 Danglars wrote:
On April 14 2017 22:44 zlefin wrote:
On university cost: I remain very suspicious of the growth of higher level management positions earning 200k+ it feels like there's too many of them. I'd like to see a full cost breakdown of universities and where exactly all the money goes.

One of the rare junctures I can agree with you. There's been an explosion of high paying administration jobs.

Most administration is done by senior faculty and senior faculty get a shitload of money by virtue of being senior faculty. Believe me, these places would run a whole lot better if they let actual staff administrators do the administration. My days are a constant battle to make senile professors in jobs that amount to an early retirement understand basic financial concepts. And I work in a STEM department.

Also University finances are public. If you want to see where the money goes, look.

what do you make of the links dpm provided?

I don't mind administrators per se; but some of them seem like they're being paid too much. and they seem a lot more numerous.

I think if you look at pretty much any business sector from 1970 to the present day you'll see a huge growth in administration. It's become a more productive field since office computers became a thing. I like to consider the example of spreadsheets. Spreadsheets existed in the early 80s and businesses would commission them but they would take specialized companies weeks to produce and would be delivered on paper. Computers came along and suddenly what a change that would take 10 people 10 days to change to an existing sheet could be done by one person in 30 seconds. But the actual amount of time spent producing spreadsheets increased, despite the process being made a million times more efficient.

In my college the average administrator probably makes around 40k. And sure, there are a lot of us, but quite a lot of shit needs doing. We are constantly audited, every penny needs to be manually assigned to the right grant or course, the right account code within that, the right commodity code within that. Shitloads of budgeting, shitloads of general admin (we're the size of a fair sized town), people constantly fucking shit up and setting fires that need to be put out.

This shit used to be done by faculty, and faculty still monopolize all the actual management positions at the top and proceed to fuck with the admins. The fact that we've freed up the faculty to spend their time doing research and teaching isn't a bad thing. Quite the opposite, I think we should go further. The current situation is essentially like if the NFL insisted that all senior positions within the NFL be occupied by currently active football players. They don't have the time, the inclination or the skills to run an organization like that and they'd much rather be doing their actual jobs.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-14 15:16:58
April 14 2017 15:15 GMT
#146790
On April 15 2017 00:13 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2017 23:59 zlefin wrote:
On April 14 2017 23:55 KwarK wrote:
On April 14 2017 23:29 Danglars wrote:
On April 14 2017 22:44 zlefin wrote:
On university cost: I remain very suspicious of the growth of higher level management positions earning 200k+ it feels like there's too many of them. I'd like to see a full cost breakdown of universities and where exactly all the money goes.

One of the rare junctures I can agree with you. There's been an explosion of high paying administration jobs.

Most administration is done by senior faculty and senior faculty get a shitload of money by virtue of being senior faculty. Believe me, these places would run a whole lot better if they let actual staff administrators do the administration. My days are a constant battle to make senile professors in jobs that amount to an early retirement understand basic financial concepts. And I work in a STEM department.

Also University finances are public. If you want to see where the money goes, look.

what do you make of the links dpm provided?

I don't mind administrators per se; but some of them seem like they're being paid too much. and they seem a lot more numerous.

I think if you look at pretty much any business sector from 1970 to the present day you'll see a huge growth in administration. It's become a more productive field since office computers became a thing. I like to consider the example of spreadsheets. Spreadsheets existed in the early 80s and businesses would commission them but they would take specialized companies weeks to produce and would be delivered on paper. Computers came along and suddenly what a change that would take 10 people 10 days to change to an existing sheet could be done by one person in 30 seconds. But the actual amount of time spent producing spreadsheets increased, despite the process being made a million times more efficient.

In my college the average administrator probably makes around 40k. And sure, there are a lot of us, but quite a lot of shit needs doing. We are constantly audited, every penny needs to be manually assigned to the right grant or course, the right account code within that, the right commodity code within that. Shitloads of budgeting, shitloads of general admin (we're the size of a fair sized town), people constantly fucking shit up and setting fires that need to be put out.

This shit used to be done by faculty, and faculty still monopolize all the actual management positions at the top and proceed to fuck with the admins. The fact that we've freed up the faculty to spend their time doing research and teaching isn't a bad thing. Quite the opposite, I think we should go further. The current situation is essentially like if the NFL insisted that all senior positions within the NFL be occupied by currently active football players. They don't have the time, the inclination or the skills to run an organization like that and they'd much rather be doing their actual jobs.

i'm talking about the admins making 200k+, not the 40k ones so much. are all these spreadsheets truly necessary? wherein is the societal benefit from all the extra admin work?
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42774 Posts
April 14 2017 15:28 GMT
#146791
On April 15 2017 00:15 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 15 2017 00:13 KwarK wrote:
On April 14 2017 23:59 zlefin wrote:
On April 14 2017 23:55 KwarK wrote:
On April 14 2017 23:29 Danglars wrote:
On April 14 2017 22:44 zlefin wrote:
On university cost: I remain very suspicious of the growth of higher level management positions earning 200k+ it feels like there's too many of them. I'd like to see a full cost breakdown of universities and where exactly all the money goes.

One of the rare junctures I can agree with you. There's been an explosion of high paying administration jobs.

Most administration is done by senior faculty and senior faculty get a shitload of money by virtue of being senior faculty. Believe me, these places would run a whole lot better if they let actual staff administrators do the administration. My days are a constant battle to make senile professors in jobs that amount to an early retirement understand basic financial concepts. And I work in a STEM department.

Also University finances are public. If you want to see where the money goes, look.

what do you make of the links dpm provided?

I don't mind administrators per se; but some of them seem like they're being paid too much. and they seem a lot more numerous.

I think if you look at pretty much any business sector from 1970 to the present day you'll see a huge growth in administration. It's become a more productive field since office computers became a thing. I like to consider the example of spreadsheets. Spreadsheets existed in the early 80s and businesses would commission them but they would take specialized companies weeks to produce and would be delivered on paper. Computers came along and suddenly what a change that would take 10 people 10 days to change to an existing sheet could be done by one person in 30 seconds. But the actual amount of time spent producing spreadsheets increased, despite the process being made a million times more efficient.

In my college the average administrator probably makes around 40k. And sure, there are a lot of us, but quite a lot of shit needs doing. We are constantly audited, every penny needs to be manually assigned to the right grant or course, the right account code within that, the right commodity code within that. Shitloads of budgeting, shitloads of general admin (we're the size of a fair sized town), people constantly fucking shit up and setting fires that need to be put out.

This shit used to be done by faculty, and faculty still monopolize all the actual management positions at the top and proceed to fuck with the admins. The fact that we've freed up the faculty to spend their time doing research and teaching isn't a bad thing. Quite the opposite, I think we should go further. The current situation is essentially like if the NFL insisted that all senior positions within the NFL be occupied by currently active football players. They don't have the time, the inclination or the skills to run an organization like that and they'd much rather be doing their actual jobs.

i'm talking about the admins making 200k+, not the 40k ones so much. are all these spreadsheets truly necessary? wherein is the societal benefit from all the extra admin work?

Truly necessary is a dumb question. Basically nothing anyone does is truly necessary. If you have good management at the top then they'll say "let's have everyone spend a bunch of time defending their use of space against our claim that they're using it inefficiently" and it'll turn out that there is actually a lot of wasted space and they can save $20,000,000 expanding a department that said it needed more room. If you have bad management then they'll say the exact same thing but just be doing it because they read that UCLA did it last year. The problem is that to the average admin these look like the exact same thing, a memo saying that you have to assign every room within your department percentages that represent its use by each course. That data then can be translated into what portion of the overall department overhead each course is consuming and, if the course has a low number of students and uses a lot of space while another course hasn't got enough space to fit all the students who want to take it, they can change shit.

This is my spreadsheets point. Every organization has gotten colossally better at running itself and assigning resources since the 80s. Every single one. Without exception. Data fuels efficiency. Now, obviously this all comes with overhead and whether the gains justify the overhead expended is a case by case thing. But admin matters. Especially when so much of the money comes from the government.

As for 200k+ administrators. There really aren't so many of them outside of faculty positions. Football coaches and the people at the very, very top. Some of our senior accountants make low six figures (below 200k+) but they're managing hundred million dollar budgets and a large staff of accountants below them, they could make more in the private sector. Honestly the entire idea that we're spending all our money on administration simply doesn't jive with me.

I actually did our FY18 budget for my department last week. We're spending about 7.5% of our money on admin staff and over 50% on faculty, of which about 30% is admin faculty. And the faculty don't actually do admin, it's just that the admin aren't empowered to do their jobs without first explaining to a faculty member why it needs to be done.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44368 Posts
April 14 2017 15:29 GMT
#146792
On April 15 2017 00:08 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2017 23:45 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On April 14 2017 23:33 Mohdoo wrote:
On April 14 2017 23:30 PhoenixVoid wrote:
As far as I know there is no teacher's college equivalent for university, and a good deal of professors are there to research and write papers, not teach. Not surprising to see such a disconnect between the profs and their students when they lack the ability to engage and communicate. It gets even worse with huge class sizes.


If people need to be so engaged and entertained in order to make it through school, I think it is the student's fault.


I think it's less about entertainment and more about "If the professors aren't clarifying or explaining or adding anything useful to the course, then why bother having them at all, and instead just ask me to read the book/ follow the syllabus on my own time?" If a professor's most important contribution to a course is merely handing out the final exam, then I worry for the students. Students should definitely be proactive and eager to learn, but I also think that professors should be able and willing to help students if office hours are attended.

That being said, I assume you're just referring to college-level students. When students are younger, engagement and enthusiasm are absolutely necessary to keep them motivated.


In my experience, this is only the case in intro level classes. In upper division classes, professors are usually teaching about a subject they are involved in themselves. First year chemistry is first year chemistry and nothing will ever change that. Same with other subjects, I imagine.


That's true, but I'd also imagine that everyone has had *that* professor who has multiple PhDs and publications to his name but at the same time can't "dumb it down" to a level that's understandable for undergraduates. He speaks way over everyone's head, whether on purpose or because he's arrogant/ wants to show off. As I said before, professors surely know the content, but they don't necessarily know how to teach the content. I think the latter should be a criterion for anyone who is going to stand in front of students in a classroom and expect them to learn something, otherwise I don't see the point in having them teach the course.

The other thing is that a lot of textbooks are quite good and go into even more detail than you'd need for a lot of subjects. In many cases, a textbook contains all the same information. A professor can help you along the way by explaining things in more detail when you go into their office hour or something, but for the most part, I think the idea that people should be able to learn primarily from a textbook is fine. I've always learned well by self-teaching and then using professors for when I get stuck. It requires enthusiasm and drive, and is certainly more mentally taxing than having something carefully explained to you, but with limited resources, I guess that's just how it goes?

My lack of sympathy is mostly for people who believe a university education is you paying for someone to teaching you things rather than to provide a method for you to learn. I think it is a crucial distinction. In one case, it is up to the individual to make the most of what is provided to them. In the other, it is up to the professor to make sure students are learning. I was a very accomplished undergrad and went out of my ways to make sure of it. Meanwhile I knew people who would somewhat give up on a subject because they were able to convince themselves the professor sucked and that they were at some kind of disadvantage or something like that.

This was not an uncommon type of conversation to either hear or be a part of:

"wtf, how do you get all this?? I feel like the lectures are so confusing and poorly organized!"
"yeah, but the book did a good job at ___ and ____, and this diagram really helped"
"ah, yeah, I just can't get myself to sit down and cruise through a textbook for hours on end"

I could. Why couldn't they?


That's fair; to clarify, by "teach" I don't mean "lecture at you/ give you everything you need on a silver platter". I mean- as you put it- providing a method of learning. Seeing assistance and additional clarity from a professor should be acceptable though. Guided instruction and occasional explanation tends to be much more useful in education than strict lecture, and we still need someone who knows how to offer those guidelines (which falls even more in the zone of educational/ teaching ability than in the zone of content mastery, for a professor). All the more reason to have professors who can relay information in digestible bits for students, when need be.

And I totally agree with you that some students aren't putting enough effort into the other resources that they have at their disposal. A lot aren't. I just don't think that excuses professors from being a resource though, which is the point I was aiming for.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-14 15:36:24
April 14 2017 15:36 GMT
#146793
On April 15 2017 00:28 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 15 2017 00:15 zlefin wrote:
On April 15 2017 00:13 KwarK wrote:
On April 14 2017 23:59 zlefin wrote:
On April 14 2017 23:55 KwarK wrote:
On April 14 2017 23:29 Danglars wrote:
On April 14 2017 22:44 zlefin wrote:
On university cost: I remain very suspicious of the growth of higher level management positions earning 200k+ it feels like there's too many of them. I'd like to see a full cost breakdown of universities and where exactly all the money goes.

One of the rare junctures I can agree with you. There's been an explosion of high paying administration jobs.

Most administration is done by senior faculty and senior faculty get a shitload of money by virtue of being senior faculty. Believe me, these places would run a whole lot better if they let actual staff administrators do the administration. My days are a constant battle to make senile professors in jobs that amount to an early retirement understand basic financial concepts. And I work in a STEM department.

Also University finances are public. If you want to see where the money goes, look.

what do you make of the links dpm provided?

I don't mind administrators per se; but some of them seem like they're being paid too much. and they seem a lot more numerous.

I think if you look at pretty much any business sector from 1970 to the present day you'll see a huge growth in administration. It's become a more productive field since office computers became a thing. I like to consider the example of spreadsheets. Spreadsheets existed in the early 80s and businesses would commission them but they would take specialized companies weeks to produce and would be delivered on paper. Computers came along and suddenly what a change that would take 10 people 10 days to change to an existing sheet could be done by one person in 30 seconds. But the actual amount of time spent producing spreadsheets increased, despite the process being made a million times more efficient.

In my college the average administrator probably makes around 40k. And sure, there are a lot of us, but quite a lot of shit needs doing. We are constantly audited, every penny needs to be manually assigned to the right grant or course, the right account code within that, the right commodity code within that. Shitloads of budgeting, shitloads of general admin (we're the size of a fair sized town), people constantly fucking shit up and setting fires that need to be put out.

This shit used to be done by faculty, and faculty still monopolize all the actual management positions at the top and proceed to fuck with the admins. The fact that we've freed up the faculty to spend their time doing research and teaching isn't a bad thing. Quite the opposite, I think we should go further. The current situation is essentially like if the NFL insisted that all senior positions within the NFL be occupied by currently active football players. They don't have the time, the inclination or the skills to run an organization like that and they'd much rather be doing their actual jobs.

i'm talking about the admins making 200k+, not the 40k ones so much. are all these spreadsheets truly necessary? wherein is the societal benefit from all the extra admin work?

Truly necessary is a dumb question. Basically nothing anyone does is truly necessary. If you have good management at the top then they'll say "let's have everyone spend a bunch of time defending their use of space against our claim that they're using it inefficiently" and it'll turn out that there is actually a lot of wasted space and they can save $20,000,000 expanding a department that said it needed more room. If you have bad management then they'll say the exact same thing but just be doing it because they read that UCLA did it last year. The problem is that to the average admin these look like the exact same thing, a memo saying that you have to assign every room within your department percentages that represent its use by each course. That data then can be translated into what portion of the overall department overhead each course is consuming and, if the course has a low number of students and uses a lot of space while another course hasn't got enough space to fit all the students who want to take it, they can change shit.

This is my spreadsheets point. Every organization has gotten colossally better at running itself and assigning resources since the 80s. Every single one. Without exception. Data fuels efficiency. Now, obviously this all comes with overhead and whether the gains justify the overhead expended is a case by case thing. But admin matters. Especially when so much of the money comes from the government.

As for 200k+ administrators. There really aren't so many of them outside of faculty positions. Football coaches and the people at the very, very top. Some of our senior accountants make low six figures (below 200k+) but they're managing hundred million dollar budgets and a large staff of accountants below them, they could make more in the private sector. Honestly the entire idea that we're spending all our money on administration simply doesn't jive with me.

I actually did our FY18 budget for my department last week. We're spending about 7.5% of our money on admin staff and over 50% on faculty, of which about 30% is admin faculty. And the faculty don't actually do admin, it's just that the admin aren't empowered to do their jobs without first explaining to a faculty member why it needs to be done.

truly necessary is not a dumb question; sometimes needless rules cause inefficient things to be done in large bureaucracies, especially if gov't is involved.
at any rate, I'd still like to know what you make of the links DPM provided. as I think you'd have useful insight on them.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42774 Posts
April 14 2017 15:36 GMT
#146794
Modern textbooks are a bit of a joke, in case anyone hasn't been to college in the last few years. The textbook company lobbies the department to use its textbooks, the department says "all professors must now teach using McGraw-Hill Connect online learning tools", the students all have to pay $200 for an online e-text edition textbook because it allows them to do the homework and the homework is a mess of "you entered $0, this is wrong, the correct answer is to leave it blank" and "we see you got that question wrong, here is the right answer, would you like to try it again and improve your score". Then their marketing material has the audacity to claim that when courses teach using their online learning tools they do better. No shit, it's not possible to not get 100% when you get unlimited attempts at a question and whenever you get it wrong they give you the right answer.

I would fucking love to have an actual textbook. But I'd love to have bought it 5th hand or borrowed it from the university library or something like that and that's not how it works anymore. Most people no longer have an actual textbook to reference. And they don't need to reference it because their assessment consists of one giant conflict of interest as the online learning company has no interest in ever failing any student.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11519 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-14 15:41:11
April 14 2017 15:38 GMT
#146795
On April 15 2017 00:08 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2017 23:45 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On April 14 2017 23:33 Mohdoo wrote:
On April 14 2017 23:30 PhoenixVoid wrote:
As far as I know there is no teacher's college equivalent for university, and a good deal of professors are there to research and write papers, not teach. Not surprising to see such a disconnect between the profs and their students when they lack the ability to engage and communicate. It gets even worse with huge class sizes.


If people need to be so engaged and entertained in order to make it through school, I think it is the student's fault.


I think it's less about entertainment and more about "If the professors aren't clarifying or explaining or adding anything useful to the course, then why bother having them at all, and instead just ask me to read the book/ follow the syllabus on my own time?" If a professor's most important contribution to a course is merely handing out the final exam, then I worry for the students. Students should definitely be proactive and eager to learn, but I also think that professors should be able and willing to help students if office hours are attended.

That being said, I assume you're just referring to college-level students. When students are younger, engagement and enthusiasm are absolutely necessary to keep them motivated.


In my experience, this is only the case in intro level classes. In upper division classes, professors are usually teaching about a subject they are involved in themselves. First year chemistry is first year chemistry and nothing will ever change that. Same with other subjects, I imagine.

The other thing is that a lot of textbooks are quite good and go into even more detail than you'd need for a lot of subjects. In many cases, a textbook contains all the same information. A professor can help you along the way by explaining things in more detail when you go into their office hour or something, but for the most part, I think the idea that people should be able to learn primarily from a textbook is fine. I've always learned well by self-teaching and then using professors for when I get stuck. It requires enthusiasm and drive, and is certainly more mentally taxing than having something carefully explained to you, but with limited resources, I guess that's just how it goes?

My lack of sympathy is mostly for people who believe a university education is you paying for someone to teaching you things rather than to provide a method for you to learn. I think it is a crucial distinction. In one case, it is up to the individual to make the most of what is provided to them. In the other, it is up to the professor to make sure students are learning. I was a very accomplished undergrad and went out of my ways to make sure of it. Meanwhile I knew people who would somewhat give up on a subject because they were able to convince themselves the professor sucked and that they were at some kind of disadvantage or something like that.

This was not an uncommon type of conversation to either hear or be a part of:

"wtf, how do you get all this?? I feel like the lectures are so confusing and poorly organized!"
"yeah, but the book did a good job at ___ and ____, and this diagram really helped"
"ah, yeah, I just can't get myself to sit down and cruise through a textbook for hours on end"

I could. Why couldn't they?


Well, but a good teacher makes learning easier. That is basically the very definition of a good teacher. Of course some people can still learn without a good teacher. For some people, all you need to do is tell them "Learn about those topics, books are in the library, i would suggest these 3." Those people are a minority. If they were not, you wouldn't even need schools or universities except for the tests. You would only need a single page telling you the names of the topics, and a library with books about it.

What exactly a good teacher does depends on the subject, the student, and all the other surrounding factors. What a good teacher does in primary school is entirely different to what a good teacher does for the people who do a masters. It is, however, always interactive and involves trying to assist students in the way that helps them most.

I really don't see the argument for people being bad teachers as being a good thing. If you have someone teach, might as well have someone do it who is good at it. The individual student will always be responsible for his own results, a good teacher doesn't change that. A good teacher does however improve results of all students. So the lazy ones will at least achieve something, while the interested and active ones will excel.

Otherwise, what is even the point of a university education. The information is all there. You can read books, you can read stuff on the internet. Few things a university professor teaches you are very special knowledge that you can't find anywhere else. And i really don't see the point in paying a researcher big money so he can read a script and write it on the whiteboard without any student interaction. That is a waste of everyones time and money.

On April 15 2017 00:36 KwarK wrote:
Modern textbooks are a bit of a joke, in case anyone hasn't been to college in the last few years. The textbook company lobbies the department to use its textbooks, the department says "all professors must now teach using McGraw-Hill Connect online learning tools", the students all have to pay $200 for an online e-text edition textbook because it allows them to do the homework and the homework is a mess of "you entered $0, this is wrong, the correct answer is to leave it blank" and "we see you got that question wrong, here is the right answer, would you like to try it again and improve your score". Then their marketing material has the audacity to claim that when courses teach using their online learning tools they do better. No shit, it's not possible to not get 100% when you get unlimited attempts at a question and whenever you get it wrong they give you the right answer.

I would fucking love to have an actual textbook. But I'd love to have bought it 5th hand or borrowed it from the university library or something like that and that's not how it works anymore. Most people no longer have an actual textbook to reference. And they don't need to reference it because their assessment consists of one giant conflict of interest as the online learning company has no interest in ever failing any student.


That sounds horrific. I am very glad my university does not work that way.

The worst thing in that direction was a psychology prof saying "Hey, you might wanna read my book on the topic, but there are 50 copies in the library."
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42774 Posts
April 14 2017 15:44 GMT
#146796
On April 15 2017 00:36 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 15 2017 00:28 KwarK wrote:
On April 15 2017 00:15 zlefin wrote:
On April 15 2017 00:13 KwarK wrote:
On April 14 2017 23:59 zlefin wrote:
On April 14 2017 23:55 KwarK wrote:
On April 14 2017 23:29 Danglars wrote:
On April 14 2017 22:44 zlefin wrote:
On university cost: I remain very suspicious of the growth of higher level management positions earning 200k+ it feels like there's too many of them. I'd like to see a full cost breakdown of universities and where exactly all the money goes.

One of the rare junctures I can agree with you. There's been an explosion of high paying administration jobs.

Most administration is done by senior faculty and senior faculty get a shitload of money by virtue of being senior faculty. Believe me, these places would run a whole lot better if they let actual staff administrators do the administration. My days are a constant battle to make senile professors in jobs that amount to an early retirement understand basic financial concepts. And I work in a STEM department.

Also University finances are public. If you want to see where the money goes, look.

what do you make of the links dpm provided?

I don't mind administrators per se; but some of them seem like they're being paid too much. and they seem a lot more numerous.

I think if you look at pretty much any business sector from 1970 to the present day you'll see a huge growth in administration. It's become a more productive field since office computers became a thing. I like to consider the example of spreadsheets. Spreadsheets existed in the early 80s and businesses would commission them but they would take specialized companies weeks to produce and would be delivered on paper. Computers came along and suddenly what a change that would take 10 people 10 days to change to an existing sheet could be done by one person in 30 seconds. But the actual amount of time spent producing spreadsheets increased, despite the process being made a million times more efficient.

In my college the average administrator probably makes around 40k. And sure, there are a lot of us, but quite a lot of shit needs doing. We are constantly audited, every penny needs to be manually assigned to the right grant or course, the right account code within that, the right commodity code within that. Shitloads of budgeting, shitloads of general admin (we're the size of a fair sized town), people constantly fucking shit up and setting fires that need to be put out.

This shit used to be done by faculty, and faculty still monopolize all the actual management positions at the top and proceed to fuck with the admins. The fact that we've freed up the faculty to spend their time doing research and teaching isn't a bad thing. Quite the opposite, I think we should go further. The current situation is essentially like if the NFL insisted that all senior positions within the NFL be occupied by currently active football players. They don't have the time, the inclination or the skills to run an organization like that and they'd much rather be doing their actual jobs.

i'm talking about the admins making 200k+, not the 40k ones so much. are all these spreadsheets truly necessary? wherein is the societal benefit from all the extra admin work?

Truly necessary is a dumb question. Basically nothing anyone does is truly necessary. If you have good management at the top then they'll say "let's have everyone spend a bunch of time defending their use of space against our claim that they're using it inefficiently" and it'll turn out that there is actually a lot of wasted space and they can save $20,000,000 expanding a department that said it needed more room. If you have bad management then they'll say the exact same thing but just be doing it because they read that UCLA did it last year. The problem is that to the average admin these look like the exact same thing, a memo saying that you have to assign every room within your department percentages that represent its use by each course. That data then can be translated into what portion of the overall department overhead each course is consuming and, if the course has a low number of students and uses a lot of space while another course hasn't got enough space to fit all the students who want to take it, they can change shit.

This is my spreadsheets point. Every organization has gotten colossally better at running itself and assigning resources since the 80s. Every single one. Without exception. Data fuels efficiency. Now, obviously this all comes with overhead and whether the gains justify the overhead expended is a case by case thing. But admin matters. Especially when so much of the money comes from the government.

As for 200k+ administrators. There really aren't so many of them outside of faculty positions. Football coaches and the people at the very, very top. Some of our senior accountants make low six figures (below 200k+) but they're managing hundred million dollar budgets and a large staff of accountants below them, they could make more in the private sector. Honestly the entire idea that we're spending all our money on administration simply doesn't jive with me.

I actually did our FY18 budget for my department last week. We're spending about 7.5% of our money on admin staff and over 50% on faculty, of which about 30% is admin faculty. And the faculty don't actually do admin, it's just that the admin aren't empowered to do their jobs without first explaining to a faculty member why it needs to be done.

truly necessary is not a dumb question; sometimes needless rules cause inefficient things to be done in large bureaucracies, especially if gov't is involved.
at any rate, I'd still like to know what you make of the links DPM provided. as I think you'd have useful insight on them.

The first link addressed the rise in numbers of admins while faculty stayed constant. I think that's completely defensible, the way that big organizations operate has changed dramatically with a huge increase in admins that has resulted, assuming good management, with huge increases in efficiency. My space survey example is a good way of looking at this. In the 70s if the faculty say they need more room then building a new lecture theatre is pretty much the only response. In 2017 the management can turn around and say "really? because to us it looks a lot like you're not using the space you have optimally". Additionally admins have taken over a lot of the duties previously done by faculty (but not all). A raw comparison of faculty:admin employees ratio from four decades apart doesn't tell the whole story, if the faculty were previously doing admin work and now are doing more faculty work because admins are doing admin then you could actually be seeing a proportionate increase in both while the ratio in terms of output stays the same.

The second link contained
Research (e.g., research institutes, labs, individual research) – 12%
Hospital services – 11%
Auxiliary enterprises (e.g. residence halls, athletics, dining services) – 9%
Institutional support (e.g. general administration and management, public relations) – 8%
Academic support (e.g. administrators, deans, libraries) – 7%
Public service (e.g. conferences, institutes, reference bureaus) – 5%
Operations & maintenance (e.g. utilities, insurance, maintaining facilities) – 4%
Student services (e.g. admissions, counseling, student activities & organizations) – 4%
Scholarships & fellowships (e.g. grants, awards, stipends) – 3%
Depreciation (losses in capital assets per year) – 3%
Independent operations (indirect enhancement of programs) – >3%

Honestly that seems about right from my own department. If they're trying to say anything is too high (athletics probably is) then it's not immediately obvious to me which one that is.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42774 Posts
April 14 2017 15:49 GMT
#146797
On April 15 2017 00:38 Simberto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 15 2017 00:36 KwarK wrote:
Modern textbooks are a bit of a joke, in case anyone hasn't been to college in the last few years. The textbook company lobbies the department to use its textbooks, the department says "all professors must now teach using McGraw-Hill Connect online learning tools", the students all have to pay $200 for an online e-text edition textbook because it allows them to do the homework and the homework is a mess of "you entered $0, this is wrong, the correct answer is to leave it blank" and "we see you got that question wrong, here is the right answer, would you like to try it again and improve your score". Then their marketing material has the audacity to claim that when courses teach using their online learning tools they do better. No shit, it's not possible to not get 100% when you get unlimited attempts at a question and whenever you get it wrong they give you the right answer.

I would fucking love to have an actual textbook. But I'd love to have bought it 5th hand or borrowed it from the university library or something like that and that's not how it works anymore. Most people no longer have an actual textbook to reference. And they don't need to reference it because their assessment consists of one giant conflict of interest as the online learning company has no interest in ever failing any student.


That sounds horrific. I am very glad my university does not work that way.

The worst thing in that direction was a psychology prof saying "Hey, you might wanna read my book on the topic, but there are 50 copies in the library."

It's just capitalism doing capitalism things. Students have to buy whatever the course sets as mandatory materials. If assessment is all done through this one portal and you can't get a code that gives you access to the portal without paying money then you borrow money and buy the code or you drop out. Party A (the department) gets to decide whether party B (the students) give all their money to party C (the company). So it becomes economically rational for C to spent $X on bribing A to force B to spend 2$X. If the department had to buy an access code for every student out of their tuition revenue then all this would end overnight because the people getting the bribe would be the people paying the cost and the bribe < the cost. But because A gets to decide on behalf of B then suddenly it all becomes economically rational.

ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Trainrunnef
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States599 Posts
April 14 2017 15:50 GMT
#146798
On April 15 2017 00:44 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 15 2017 00:36 zlefin wrote:
On April 15 2017 00:28 KwarK wrote:
On April 15 2017 00:15 zlefin wrote:
On April 15 2017 00:13 KwarK wrote:
On April 14 2017 23:59 zlefin wrote:
On April 14 2017 23:55 KwarK wrote:
On April 14 2017 23:29 Danglars wrote:
On April 14 2017 22:44 zlefin wrote:
On university cost: I remain very suspicious of the growth of higher level management positions earning 200k+ it feels like there's too many of them. I'd like to see a full cost breakdown of universities and where exactly all the money goes.

One of the rare junctures I can agree with you. There's been an explosion of high paying administration jobs.

Most administration is done by senior faculty and senior faculty get a shitload of money by virtue of being senior faculty. Believe me, these places would run a whole lot better if they let actual staff administrators do the administration. My days are a constant battle to make senile professors in jobs that amount to an early retirement understand basic financial concepts. And I work in a STEM department.

Also University finances are public. If you want to see where the money goes, look.

what do you make of the links dpm provided?

I don't mind administrators per se; but some of them seem like they're being paid too much. and they seem a lot more numerous.

I think if you look at pretty much any business sector from 1970 to the present day you'll see a huge growth in administration. It's become a more productive field since office computers became a thing. I like to consider the example of spreadsheets. Spreadsheets existed in the early 80s and businesses would commission them but they would take specialized companies weeks to produce and would be delivered on paper. Computers came along and suddenly what a change that would take 10 people 10 days to change to an existing sheet could be done by one person in 30 seconds. But the actual amount of time spent producing spreadsheets increased, despite the process being made a million times more efficient.

In my college the average administrator probably makes around 40k. And sure, there are a lot of us, but quite a lot of shit needs doing. We are constantly audited, every penny needs to be manually assigned to the right grant or course, the right account code within that, the right commodity code within that. Shitloads of budgeting, shitloads of general admin (we're the size of a fair sized town), people constantly fucking shit up and setting fires that need to be put out.

This shit used to be done by faculty, and faculty still monopolize all the actual management positions at the top and proceed to fuck with the admins. The fact that we've freed up the faculty to spend their time doing research and teaching isn't a bad thing. Quite the opposite, I think we should go further. The current situation is essentially like if the NFL insisted that all senior positions within the NFL be occupied by currently active football players. They don't have the time, the inclination or the skills to run an organization like that and they'd much rather be doing their actual jobs.

i'm talking about the admins making 200k+, not the 40k ones so much. are all these spreadsheets truly necessary? wherein is the societal benefit from all the extra admin work?

Truly necessary is a dumb question. Basically nothing anyone does is truly necessary. If you have good management at the top then they'll say "let's have everyone spend a bunch of time defending their use of space against our claim that they're using it inefficiently" and it'll turn out that there is actually a lot of wasted space and they can save $20,000,000 expanding a department that said it needed more room. If you have bad management then they'll say the exact same thing but just be doing it because they read that UCLA did it last year. The problem is that to the average admin these look like the exact same thing, a memo saying that you have to assign every room within your department percentages that represent its use by each course. That data then can be translated into what portion of the overall department overhead each course is consuming and, if the course has a low number of students and uses a lot of space while another course hasn't got enough space to fit all the students who want to take it, they can change shit.

This is my spreadsheets point. Every organization has gotten colossally better at running itself and assigning resources since the 80s. Every single one. Without exception. Data fuels efficiency. Now, obviously this all comes with overhead and whether the gains justify the overhead expended is a case by case thing. But admin matters. Especially when so much of the money comes from the government.

As for 200k+ administrators. There really aren't so many of them outside of faculty positions. Football coaches and the people at the very, very top. Some of our senior accountants make low six figures (below 200k+) but they're managing hundred million dollar budgets and a large staff of accountants below them, they could make more in the private sector. Honestly the entire idea that we're spending all our money on administration simply doesn't jive with me.

I actually did our FY18 budget for my department last week. We're spending about 7.5% of our money on admin staff and over 50% on faculty, of which about 30% is admin faculty. And the faculty don't actually do admin, it's just that the admin aren't empowered to do their jobs without first explaining to a faculty member why it needs to be done.

truly necessary is not a dumb question; sometimes needless rules cause inefficient things to be done in large bureaucracies, especially if gov't is involved.
at any rate, I'd still like to know what you make of the links DPM provided. as I think you'd have useful insight on them.

The first link addressed the rise in numbers of admins while faculty stayed constant. I think that's completely defensible, the way that big organizations operate has changed dramatically with a huge increase in admins that has resulted, assuming good management, with huge increases in efficiency. My space survey example is a good way of looking at this. In the 70s if the faculty say they need more room then building a new lecture theatre is pretty much the only response. In 2017 the management can turn around and say "really? because to us it looks a lot like you're not using the space you have optimally". Additionally admins have taken over a lot of the duties previously done by faculty (but not all). A raw comparison of faculty:admin employees ratio from four decades apart doesn't tell the whole story, if the faculty were previously doing admin work and now are doing more faculty work because admins are doing admin then you could actually be seeing a proportionate increase in both while the ratio in terms of output stays the same.

The second link contained
Show nested quote +
Research (e.g., research institutes, labs, individual research) – 12%
Hospital services – 11%
Auxiliary enterprises (e.g. residence halls, athletics, dining services) – 9%
Institutional support (e.g. general administration and management, public relations) – 8%
Academic support (e.g. administrators, deans, libraries) – 7%
Public service (e.g. conferences, institutes, reference bureaus) – 5%
Operations & maintenance (e.g. utilities, insurance, maintaining facilities) – 4%
Student services (e.g. admissions, counseling, student activities & organizations) – 4%
Scholarships & fellowships (e.g. grants, awards, stipends) – 3%
Depreciation (losses in capital assets per year) – 3%
Independent operations (indirect enhancement of programs) – >3%

Honestly that seems about right from my own department. If they're trying to say anything is too high (athletics probably is) then it's not immediately obvious to me which one that is.



The other thing that is important to note is that student enrollment has gone up and the size of may of these schools has drastically increased. This on its own means that you will need more admin staff to process the increased student information.
I am, therefore I pee
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7890 Posts
April 14 2017 15:50 GMT
#146799
On April 14 2017 09:32 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2017 08:17 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:

States need to wise up and bring back firing squads or hanging.

That, or they should stop killing people. That sounds like another way to wise up.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44368 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-14 15:53:14
April 14 2017 15:52 GMT
#146800
On April 15 2017 00:36 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 15 2017 00:28 KwarK wrote:
On April 15 2017 00:15 zlefin wrote:
On April 15 2017 00:13 KwarK wrote:
On April 14 2017 23:59 zlefin wrote:
On April 14 2017 23:55 KwarK wrote:
On April 14 2017 23:29 Danglars wrote:
On April 14 2017 22:44 zlefin wrote:
On university cost: I remain very suspicious of the growth of higher level management positions earning 200k+ it feels like there's too many of them. I'd like to see a full cost breakdown of universities and where exactly all the money goes.

One of the rare junctures I can agree with you. There's been an explosion of high paying administration jobs.

Most administration is done by senior faculty and senior faculty get a shitload of money by virtue of being senior faculty. Believe me, these places would run a whole lot better if they let actual staff administrators do the administration. My days are a constant battle to make senile professors in jobs that amount to an early retirement understand basic financial concepts. And I work in a STEM department.

Also University finances are public. If you want to see where the money goes, look.

what do you make of the links dpm provided?

I don't mind administrators per se; but some of them seem like they're being paid too much. and they seem a lot more numerous.

I think if you look at pretty much any business sector from 1970 to the present day you'll see a huge growth in administration. It's become a more productive field since office computers became a thing. I like to consider the example of spreadsheets. Spreadsheets existed in the early 80s and businesses would commission them but they would take specialized companies weeks to produce and would be delivered on paper. Computers came along and suddenly what a change that would take 10 people 10 days to change to an existing sheet could be done by one person in 30 seconds. But the actual amount of time spent producing spreadsheets increased, despite the process being made a million times more efficient.

In my college the average administrator probably makes around 40k. And sure, there are a lot of us, but quite a lot of shit needs doing. We are constantly audited, every penny needs to be manually assigned to the right grant or course, the right account code within that, the right commodity code within that. Shitloads of budgeting, shitloads of general admin (we're the size of a fair sized town), people constantly fucking shit up and setting fires that need to be put out.

This shit used to be done by faculty, and faculty still monopolize all the actual management positions at the top and proceed to fuck with the admins. The fact that we've freed up the faculty to spend their time doing research and teaching isn't a bad thing. Quite the opposite, I think we should go further. The current situation is essentially like if the NFL insisted that all senior positions within the NFL be occupied by currently active football players. They don't have the time, the inclination or the skills to run an organization like that and they'd much rather be doing their actual jobs.

i'm talking about the admins making 200k+, not the 40k ones so much. are all these spreadsheets truly necessary? wherein is the societal benefit from all the extra admin work?

Truly necessary is a dumb question. Basically nothing anyone does is truly necessary. If you have good management at the top then they'll say "let's have everyone spend a bunch of time defending their use of space against our claim that they're using it inefficiently" and it'll turn out that there is actually a lot of wasted space and they can save $20,000,000 expanding a department that said it needed more room. If you have bad management then they'll say the exact same thing but just be doing it because they read that UCLA did it last year. The problem is that to the average admin these look like the exact same thing, a memo saying that you have to assign every room within your department percentages that represent its use by each course. That data then can be translated into what portion of the overall department overhead each course is consuming and, if the course has a low number of students and uses a lot of space while another course hasn't got enough space to fit all the students who want to take it, they can change shit.

This is my spreadsheets point. Every organization has gotten colossally better at running itself and assigning resources since the 80s. Every single one. Without exception. Data fuels efficiency. Now, obviously this all comes with overhead and whether the gains justify the overhead expended is a case by case thing. But admin matters. Especially when so much of the money comes from the government.

As for 200k+ administrators. There really aren't so many of them outside of faculty positions. Football coaches and the people at the very, very top. Some of our senior accountants make low six figures (below 200k+) but they're managing hundred million dollar budgets and a large staff of accountants below them, they could make more in the private sector. Honestly the entire idea that we're spending all our money on administration simply doesn't jive with me.

I actually did our FY18 budget for my department last week. We're spending about 7.5% of our money on admin staff and over 50% on faculty, of which about 30% is admin faculty. And the faculty don't actually do admin, it's just that the admin aren't empowered to do their jobs without first explaining to a faculty member why it needs to be done.

truly necessary is not a dumb question; sometimes needless rules cause inefficient things to be done in large bureaucracies, especially if gov't is involved.
at any rate, I'd still like to know what you make of the links DPM provided. as I think you'd have useful insight on them.


When did I become DPM instead of DPB Just asking since you used that acronym a few times.
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