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KwarK
United States42774 Posts
On April 14 2017 11:48 Nevuk wrote: I don't trust these big, broad, brief solutions to a very complicated problem. Half of the problem is that 18 year olds aren't about to get any more mature just because you tell them that college shouldn't be for partying. Colleges look the way they do because of the people in them. You can't fix college without fixing kids and you can't fix kids. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35153 Posts
On April 14 2017 11:44 Slaughter wrote: Isn't the problem more that we don't identify and push trade schools earlier in the educational process? I hear trade schools are chomping at the bits for students but the interest isn't there because kids are just told to go to university. If you convince kids that trade schools are a viable career path and get them excited about them earlier in the process then naturally enrollment will increase. How this would affect universities is another question. Since government funding to them keeps dropping they increase their tuition. If less students were available there would be more competition for students and we would probably see some low to mid tier universities close. This consolidation would probably be better in the long run but it would just create another (albeit smaller) crisis among academics who suddenly see jobs decrease a lot (and the job market is already pretty shit right now). Who knows maybe that would lead to the US exporting academics to other countries heh. As was said above there would also likely be an increase in exchange students. When I was in highschool the trade school had loads of kids bused to it every day. It covered a lot of things like auto repair, computers, cooking, and police training. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On April 14 2017 11:48 Nevuk wrote: I don't trust these big, broad, brief solutions to a very complicated problem. Well obviously it's one problem among many and if I were devising a specific policy to reduce costs I'd go in more depth - but it is one of the major sources of perpetual cost creep in US schools. | ||
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Sermokala
United States13956 Posts
On April 14 2017 11:51 Gahlo wrote: When I was in highschool the trade school had loads of kids bused to it every day. It covered a lot of things like auto repair, computers, cooking, and police training. And a lot of the issue with trade schools is that they're very regionalized. My school Is a community college technical school combination with one of the few gunsmithing programs in the nation. Its got a kickass automotive department and this all feeds into a ton of grant money and play cash for fun tech in the advanced manufacturing program. But its not big enough for the injection (metal plastic and 3d printing) department or a real robotics or automation department. There is a good school for automation 2 hours away and they are partnered with a state college for robotics but theres only so much that the school can go before it reaches a ceiling of what it can grow to be. State colleges and universities have the size but they lack the flexibility that trade schools have to service the industries that spring up like injection or demand a 4 year commitment for something that doesn't need it like for something such as automation. a PLC programming and maintenance job only needs 2 years or less to be fully trained and thats a 60k a year career on just that alone. So there isn't any real solution to the problem. the thing is is that the education system is already solving the issue with more internet classes and more partner ships between trade schools and larger universities. More cooperation between trade schools and companies and their communities. Targeted grants to channel the flow of progression and advancement is probably the best thing people can do. Simply making CC's and TC's free isn't a real solution to the issues that the system as a whole has. There is a lot of money wasted in liberal arts classes and degrees but I want to belive that the nation is richer for them. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On April 14 2017 11:50 KwarK wrote: Half of the problem is that 18 year olds aren't about to get any more mature just because you tell them that college shouldn't be for partying. Colleges look the way they do because of the people in them. You can't fix college without fixing kids and you can't fix kids. Not really true. You can't force 18 year olds to be mature by telling them to wise up in college. You can fix colleges to be more focused on education, which would either force them to take college seriously or let them be immature elsewhere. | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
8986 Posts
Want to fix immaturity? Provide students with options to demonstrate maturity. | ||
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Mysticesper
United States1183 Posts
On April 14 2017 12:07 Sermokala wrote: And a lot of the issue with trade schools is that they're very regionalized. My school Is a community college technical school combination with one of the few gunsmithing programs in the nation. Its got a kickass automotive department and this all feeds into a ton of grant money and play cash for fun tech in the advanced manufacturing program. But its not big enough for the injection (metal plastic and 3d printing) department or a real robotics or automation department. There is a good school for automation 2 hours away and they are partnered with a state college for robotics but theres only so much that the school can go before it reaches a ceiling of what it can grow to be. State colleges and universities have the size but they lack the flexibility that trade schools have to service the industries that spring up like injection or demand a 4 year commitment for something that doesn't need it like for something such as automation. a PLC programming and maintenance job only needs 2 years or less to be fully trained and thats a 60k a year career on just that alone. So there isn't any real solution to the problem. the thing is is that the education system is already solving the issue with more internet classes and more partner ships between trade schools and larger universities. More cooperation between trade schools and companies and their communities. Targeted grants to channel the flow of progression and advancement is probably the best thing people can do. Simply making CC's and TC's free isn't a real solution to the issues that the system as a whole has. There is a lot of money wasted in liberal arts classes and degrees but I want to belive that the nation is richer for them. It's one of these weird spots. My employer doesn't care what literature I read, or how much history I know (i took the bare minimum required). All they care about is whether or not I can perform what I need to do and that I'm pursuing licensure. My university was very lax on general education requirements, whereas my hometown university required double what my university required in terms of core education requirements. | ||
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Karis Vas Ryaar
United States4396 Posts
On April 14 2017 14:01 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: Colleges and universities don't take the initiative on pushing real world experience. They rather you take it upon yourself to find your job and get that experience. Every degree should have a mandatory internship/apprenticeship in the field you wish to work in. That way people are exposed early on and have a sense of what awaits them. Want to fix immaturity? Provide students with options to demonstrate maturity. theres colleges that do that. there's only a few that are technically work colleges but there are colleges where internships and such are a part of the curriculum. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7890 Posts
On April 14 2017 14:31 Mysticesper wrote: It's one of these weird spots. My employer doesn't care what literature I read, or how much history I know (i took the bare minimum required). All they care about is whether or not I can perform what I need to do and that I'm pursuing licensure. My university was very lax on general education requirements, whereas my hometown university required double what my university required in terms of core education requirements. The purpose of education is not only to get a job and perform it well. It's also to be an enlightened citizen. You don't need to know that the earth turns around the sun, that Kant was german or that Australia us in the south hemisphere to do 95% of jobs. Yet if you finish college without knowing those things it's a pretty horrible failure. If anti intellectualism didn't strive that hard in the US, its democracy would function better, people would think critically, conspiracy theories and bullshit news wouldn't be one of the major aspect of its politics, and obviously Trump wouldn't be there. Your employer doesn't care what book you read but your country does. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11519 Posts
Your goal should not be to learn the absolute minimum necessary to barely coast by in your desired job. Education makes you a better you, not just a better performing worker. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44368 Posts
On April 14 2017 11:28 xDaunt wrote: Sending everyone to college is a stupid idea. Subsidizing liberal arts degrees is even dumber. We need trade schools, not more academic nonsense. I agree in the theoretical sense; I wish other alternatives to college were seriously explored. However, in a practical sense, I think that the vast majority of families feel that college is the necessary next step to be competitive and keep up with everyone else for future jobs, which makes the absurd tuition increases and the insane student debt acceptable risks in their eyes... which is really, really unfortunate. On April 14 2017 11:44 Slaughter wrote: Isn't the problem more that we don't identify and push trade schools earlier in the educational process? I hear trade schools are chomping at the bits for students but the interest isn't there because kids are just told to go to university. If you convince kids that trade schools are a viable career path and get them excited about them earlier in the process then naturally enrollment will increase. I think that's definitely one of the challenges, and I think it might be able to be persuasive if the middle/ high school generation is shown that those other options can lead to a ton of success without a ton of debt... I think having more financial autonomy will be a really attractive argument for teenagers who are always hearing about and seeing economic issues and cost of living issues. How this would affect universities is another question. Since government funding to them keeps dropping they increase their tuition. If less students were available there would be more competition for students and we would probably see some low to mid tier universities close. This consolidation would probably be better in the long run but it would just create another (albeit smaller) crisis among academics who suddenly see jobs decrease a lot (and the job market is already pretty shit right now). Who knows maybe that would lead to the US exporting academics to other countries heh. As was said above there would also likely be an increase in exchange students. The university response would indeed be interesting... I think that ideally, colleges would realize that to remain competitive, they may need to downsize and definitely need to lower tuition costs if the reward of a higher education is overshadowed by the risk of crushing student debt. I don't know if that will happen, but I hope it does, since many high school graduates really do want a serious college education and move into graduate/ doctoral programs after a real university education. On April 14 2017 11:44 LegalLord wrote: Obliterate the use of public universities for the purpose of a four-year fun-time "full college experience" party club and you will be able to save enough money to educate people for far cheaper. First, I'm curious as to whether or not that's a non sequitur. How will removing the idea of "college = party time" lead to saving "enough money to educate people for far cheaper"? I'm having trouble following that logic. Second, how could that idea be implemented? Presumably, stricter enforcement of alcohol on campus/ underage drinking/ parties may turn people away from fraternities, tailgating sports events, and other activities that tend to generate popularity and interest in colleges (thus equating to more money for the colleges). I think that the idea of the college experience including parties/ socializing brings in money, even if it may detract from academic focus. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44368 Posts
On April 14 2017 14:01 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: Colleges and universities don't take the initiative on pushing real world experience. They rather you take it upon yourself to find your job and get that experience. Every degree should have a mandatory internship/apprenticeship in the field you wish to work in. That way people are exposed early on and have a sense of what awaits them. Want to fix immaturity? Provide students with options to demonstrate maturity. I think it's a "both/and" situation: Many universities do offer opportunities for real-life experience, responsibility, and apprenticeship (but they could do much more) and many students take advantage of those opportunities (but plenty still don't care/ can't find something). I think increased interest from both sides- the university side, to argue for an even better overall educational experience at their facilities, and the student side, to show universities that these opportunities are an important factor in their decision to go to College X over College Y- are needed to make these things happen. On April 14 2017 11:50 KwarK wrote: Half of the problem is that 18 year olds aren't about to get any more mature just because you tell them that college shouldn't be for partying. Colleges look the way they do because of the people in them. You can't fix college without fixing kids and you can't fix kids. I agree, which is why I think students need to learn how to be responsible and motivated and eager to learn before they enter college. Get them interested and engaged and loving academia and knowledge in high/ middle/ primary school, and they'll chomp at the bit for more opportunities after they graduate high school. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with college students balancing out serious coursework/ part-time jobs with the occasional party/ social event (in fact, it's probably necessary for their sanity), so I'd much rather change the perspective from "no school parties/ no fun/ only studying" (which I feel is the slippery slope that a lot of the conversation is moving toward) to "college education has multiple purposes, including academic education, well-roundedness of the individual, preparation for the real-world, and social and cultural interactions". I think that's a much healthier balance that still keeps universities as an attractive option. On April 14 2017 20:03 Simberto wrote: Also, you should. Education is called education and not "job preperation" for a reason. Your goal should not be to learn the absolute minimum necessary to barely coast by in your desired job. Education makes you a better you, not just a better performing worker. I agree mostly, but I definitely would want my college major to be truly relevant if I apply for a job/ get a job in a related field! It's got some job preparation, I think, but certainly education is much more than *just* that. On April 14 2017 17:37 Biff The Understudy wrote: The purpose of education is not only to get a job and perform it well. It's also to be an enlightened citizen. You don't need to know that the earth turns around the sun, that Kant was german or that Australia us in the south hemisphere to do 95% of jobs. Yet if you finish college without knowing those things it's a pretty horrible failure. If anti intellectualism didn't strive that hard in the US, its democracy would function better, people would think critically, conspiracy theories and bullshit news wouldn't be one of the major aspect of its politics, and obviously Trump wouldn't be there. Your employer doesn't care what book you read but your country does. Well said  | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44368 Posts
On April 14 2017 22:44 zlefin wrote: On university cost: I remain very suspicious of the growth of higher level management positions earning 200k+ it feels like there's too many of them. I'd like to see a full cost breakdown of universities and where exactly all the money goes. I found an article that defends your suspicion in some cases: A study found that the California State University system had 11,614 full-time faculty in 1973, and 12,019 in 2008. During that same time period, administrators grew from 3,800 to 12,183, ending up with more administrators than faculty. I would guess that things were not really all that lean in 1973 either. It has only gotten worse since 2008. https://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanlewis/2017/02/17/u-s-colleges-where-does-the-money-go/#58377a4e73ca And this article has a pretty nice breakdown of some university spending, along with some other explanations for increased tuition costs (e.g., decreased state funding): http://www.schoolmoney.org/college-tuition-where-does-the-money-go/ This reference (cited from the above schoolmoney site) has some great charts that make things much clearer: http://radioopensource.org/college-budgets/ It analyzed the data from NCES: https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2011/2011230.pdf | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44368 Posts
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
After his evening prayers, Mohammad Shahzadah closed the house gates and sat down for dinner. Then the blast came, engulfing the sky in flames and sending tremors through the ground. “The earth felt like a boat in a storm,” Shahzadah said. “I thought my house was being bombed. Last year a drone strike targeted a house next to mine, but this time it felt like the heavens were falling. The children and women were very scared.” ... The bomb was dropped in the mountains close to Moman village in an area called Asadkhel. About 1.5 miles away, in Shaddle Bazar where Shahzadah lives, the impact was palpable. “My ears were deaf for a while. My windows and doors are broken. There are cracks in the walls,” he said. The US military said it had killed 36 militants. The following morning around 9am, fighter jets strafed the area, a local police commander, Baaz Jan, said. “We don’t know who was killed yesterday or this morning. But there is confusion and fear in the radio chats we are intercepting. There is limited communication among Isis fighters,” he said. www.msn.com | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44368 Posts
On April 14 2017 23:15 zlefin wrote: Many professors aren't that great in teaching, and in particular aren't trained much in it. They're trained in their own field, but they're not trained in pedagogy, and it shows. Agreed. When I started to teach college, the students swore I had taught high school for years before becoming a professor because I "actually gave a shit about them" and "actually knew how to teach the material". It's really sad, and I experienced the same realization as a college student... most professors knew what they were talking about, but hadn't a clue as to how they could help transfer that information over to students. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On April 14 2017 22:44 zlefin wrote: On university cost: I remain very suspicious of the growth of higher level management positions earning 200k+ it feels like there's too many of them. I'd like to see a full cost breakdown of universities and where exactly all the money goes. One of the rare junctures I can agree with you. There's been an explosion of high paying administration jobs. | ||
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PhoenixVoid
Canada32740 Posts
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