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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
biology]major
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2253 Posts
April 13 2017 05:04 GMT
#146601
pretty sure something terrible will happen w/ either russia or nk in the next 3 years and Trump will ironically become one of the more consequential presidents after coming in as a meme. We live in strange times
Question.?
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States5082 Posts
April 13 2017 05:05 GMT
#146602
We complain about the ignorance of the American voter and yet want to force people who don't already vote to vote? Forget arguments about forcing participation, that doesn't make sense on its own.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-13 05:08:40
April 13 2017 05:06 GMT
#146603
I'm sure plenty of jobs will be available in the cleaning up radioactive fallout industry.

mandatory voting has some issues but their are countries that do it and they have higher turnouts on average. Pros and cons could be debated but I don't think it's inherently a terrible idea.
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24505 Posts
April 13 2017 05:10 GMT
#146604
On April 13 2017 13:57 Yurie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2017 13:52 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On April 13 2017 12:58 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
More proof that Boomer generation will go down as the most selfish and destructive generation in history.


And this is why young people actually need to vote.


It is an interesting subject on how to complete that goal though. Maybe enforced compulsory voting might be a decent idea for a few elections to promote the culture?

A way to do it without adding direct costs to the government could be to deny passports and social security or similar subsidies if not voting or submitting a reason of why one can not.


We don't need compulsory voting. What we need is a nationwide Sudbury style makeover for our education system.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14220 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-13 05:18:30
April 13 2017 05:12 GMT
#146605
On April 13 2017 14:04 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
I'm all for automatic voter registration but thats not politically viable.

one thing maybe is more candidates who are younger.

Tie voter registration to registering for the draft and a high school diploma or GED?

On April 13 2017 11:28 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2017 11:18 Mohdoo wrote:
If Trump actually ends up trading currency manipulator status for NK, I will be impressed and will tip my fedora at m'basedemporerking

that's not gonna happen, it's far too uneven a trade. To get NK, you'd need to do something like give up taiwan.

giveing up the bases in SK and maybe the new base in the philipines might be enough. The biggest reason why NK was proped back up in the first place was to give a buffer state on the single land route to its important parts.

GH above I have no idea what a sudberry makover means and googling didn't help please explain.

And below there will always be politicians like there will always be bankers or merchants. There are margins and the truely Human thing is to have someone to fill that margin.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
biology]major
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2253 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-13 05:15:10
April 13 2017 05:13 GMT
#146606
On April 13 2017 14:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2017 13:57 Yurie wrote:
On April 13 2017 13:52 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On April 13 2017 12:58 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
More proof that Boomer generation will go down as the most selfish and destructive generation in history.

https://twitter.com/crampell/status/852232657928937472

And this is why young people actually need to vote.


It is an interesting subject on how to complete that goal though. Maybe enforced compulsory voting might be a decent idea for a few elections to promote the culture?

A way to do it without adding direct costs to the government could be to deny passports and social security or similar subsidies if not voting or submitting a reason of why one can not.


We don't need compulsory voting. What we need is a nationwide Sudbury style makeover for our education system.


No amount of education is going to change the fact that a voter has to receive a highly diluted and simplified, catchy, and provocative message. We actually need more honest politicians who want to do good, which happens by removing money from politics OR having an extremely wealthy politicians who aren't as easily manipulated. It's 2017, most people have internet access. You've got it backwards. Our politicians are failures, and they are stuck in ideology, and in that sense, Trump is still the most reasonable one there.

Politician should not be a career.
Question.?
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24505 Posts
April 13 2017 05:53 GMT
#146607
On April 13 2017 14:12 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2017 14:04 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
I'm all for automatic voter registration but thats not politically viable.

one thing maybe is more candidates who are younger.

Tie voter registration to registering for the draft and a high school diploma or GED?

Show nested quote +
On April 13 2017 11:28 zlefin wrote:
On April 13 2017 11:18 Mohdoo wrote:
If Trump actually ends up trading currency manipulator status for NK, I will be impressed and will tip my fedora at m'basedemporerking

that's not gonna happen, it's far too uneven a trade. To get NK, you'd need to do something like give up taiwan.

giveing up the bases in SK and maybe the new base in the philipines might be enough. The biggest reason why NK was proped back up in the first place was to give a buffer state on the single land route to its important parts.

GH above I have no idea what a sudberry makover means and googling didn't help please explain.

And below there will always be politicians like there will always be bankers or merchants. There are margins and the truely Human thing is to have someone to fill that margin.


Basically:

A Sudbury school is a type of school, usually for the K-12 age range, where students have complete responsibility for their own education, and the school is run by direct democracy in which students and staff are equals.[1] Students individually decide what to do with their time, and tend to learn as a by-product of ordinary experience rather than through coursework. There is no predetermined educational syllabus, prescriptive curriculum or standardized instruction. This is a form of democratic education. Daniel Greenberg, one of the founders of the original Sudbury Model school, writes that the two things that distinguish a Sudbury Model school are that everyone - adults and children - are treated equally and that there is no authority other than that granted by the consent of the governed.[2]

While each Sudbury Model school operates independently and determines their own policies and procedures, they share a common culture.[3] The intended culture within a Sudbury school has been described with such words as freedom, trust, respect, responsibility and democracy.


Basically a school that prepares you to be a citizen as opposed to the school we currently have that prepares you to be... who fucking knows.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
April 13 2017 06:01 GMT
#146608
maybe stuff like this will make them turnout more

Education Secretary Betsy DeVos on Tuesday rolled back two Obama-era memos intended to help protect student loan borrowers.

Student loan contracts aren't serviced in-house by the Federal Student Aid Office. Instead, they are managed by third-party companies, which are awarded contracts by the government. Before the Obama memos, those contracts went to companies that were best at collecting debts.

Rather than rewarding companies that cashed in on debts, the now-rescinded Obama guidance incentivized a good track record and sought to award contracts to companies with a history of helping borrowers.

While the Obama memos sought to give borrowers more options, transparency and better services as a means to prevent them from defaulting on loans, DeVos said that withdrawing the memos is intended to limit "the cost to taxpayers" and "increase customer service and accountability."

DeVos' withdrawal memo cited "a lack of consistent objectives" as the reason for rescinding the previous administration's guidance.

The Department of Education did not immediately respond to NBC News' request for comment.

So what does DeVos' move mean for those who have loans?

Attorney Adam Minsky, who has dedicated his practice to helping those with student loans, said the withdrawal only creates more frustration for the borrowers.

"[The Obama memo] alerted servicers that how they deal with borrowers — the outcomes would be a factor in if they're awarded a contract," Minsky told NBC News. "[The memo said,] 'We're going to consider that.' And the idea there was to incentivize the servicers to work harder to help borrowers."



http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/betsy-devos-rolls-back-obama-era-student-loan-guidance-n745701
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7684 Posts
April 13 2017 06:29 GMT
#146609
On April 13 2017 14:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2017 14:12 Sermokala wrote:
On April 13 2017 14:04 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
I'm all for automatic voter registration but thats not politically viable.

one thing maybe is more candidates who are younger.

Tie voter registration to registering for the draft and a high school diploma or GED?

On April 13 2017 11:28 zlefin wrote:
On April 13 2017 11:18 Mohdoo wrote:
If Trump actually ends up trading currency manipulator status for NK, I will be impressed and will tip my fedora at m'basedemporerking

that's not gonna happen, it's far too uneven a trade. To get NK, you'd need to do something like give up taiwan.

giveing up the bases in SK and maybe the new base in the philipines might be enough. The biggest reason why NK was proped back up in the first place was to give a buffer state on the single land route to its important parts.

GH above I have no idea what a sudberry makover means and googling didn't help please explain.

And below there will always be politicians like there will always be bankers or merchants. There are margins and the truely Human thing is to have someone to fill that margin.


Basically:

Show nested quote +
A Sudbury school is a type of school, usually for the K-12 age range, where students have complete responsibility for their own education, and the school is run by direct democracy in which students and staff are equals.[1] Students individually decide what to do with their time, and tend to learn as a by-product of ordinary experience rather than through coursework. There is no predetermined educational syllabus, prescriptive curriculum or standardized instruction. This is a form of democratic education. Daniel Greenberg, one of the founders of the original Sudbury Model school, writes that the two things that distinguish a Sudbury Model school are that everyone - adults and children - are treated equally and that there is no authority other than that granted by the consent of the governed.[2]

While each Sudbury Model school operates independently and determines their own policies and procedures, they share a common culture.[3] The intended culture within a Sudbury school has been described with such words as freedom, trust, respect, responsibility and democracy.


Basically a school that prepares you to be a citizen as opposed to the school we currently have that prepares you to be... who fucking knows.


do you know anyone who has been through a sudbury school?
It is terrible to die of thirst at sea. Must you so salt your truth that it will no longer even slake thirst?
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24505 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-13 06:58:25
April 13 2017 06:34 GMT
#146610
On April 13 2017 15:29 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2017 14:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
On April 13 2017 14:12 Sermokala wrote:
On April 13 2017 14:04 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
I'm all for automatic voter registration but thats not politically viable.

one thing maybe is more candidates who are younger.

Tie voter registration to registering for the draft and a high school diploma or GED?

On April 13 2017 11:28 zlefin wrote:
On April 13 2017 11:18 Mohdoo wrote:
If Trump actually ends up trading currency manipulator status for NK, I will be impressed and will tip my fedora at m'basedemporerking

that's not gonna happen, it's far too uneven a trade. To get NK, you'd need to do something like give up taiwan.

giveing up the bases in SK and maybe the new base in the philipines might be enough. The biggest reason why NK was proped back up in the first place was to give a buffer state on the single land route to its important parts.

GH above I have no idea what a sudberry makover means and googling didn't help please explain.

And below there will always be politicians like there will always be bankers or merchants. There are margins and the truely Human thing is to have someone to fill that margin.


Basically:

A Sudbury school is a type of school, usually for the K-12 age range, where students have complete responsibility for their own education, and the school is run by direct democracy in which students and staff are equals.[1] Students individually decide what to do with their time, and tend to learn as a by-product of ordinary experience rather than through coursework. There is no predetermined educational syllabus, prescriptive curriculum or standardized instruction. This is a form of democratic education. Daniel Greenberg, one of the founders of the original Sudbury Model school, writes that the two things that distinguish a Sudbury Model school are that everyone - adults and children - are treated equally and that there is no authority other than that granted by the consent of the governed.[2]

While each Sudbury Model school operates independently and determines their own policies and procedures, they share a common culture.[3] The intended culture within a Sudbury school has been described with such words as freedom, trust, respect, responsibility and democracy.


Basically a school that prepares you to be a citizen as opposed to the school we currently have that prepares you to be... who fucking knows.


do you know anyone who has been through a sudbury school?


Not yet, I just recently found out about them. I plan on speaking with some in the near future though. It wouldn't have to be exactly like any existing Sudbury school. At least the democratic aspect would help, even if you kept a lot of the structure we're used to .
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany12078 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-13 07:59:23
April 13 2017 07:47 GMT
#146611
On April 13 2017 14:05 Introvert wrote:
We complain about the ignorance of the American voter and yet want to force people who don't already vote to vote? Forget arguments about forcing participation, that doesn't make sense on its own.


Before thinking about forcing people to vote, you should first make it easy for them to vote, nationwide. That means general access to voting locales in walking distance in cities / short drive distance if you are in bumfuck nowhere. Enough voting locales and staff so that you never have to wait for more than 30 minutes. And a legal right for time off to go vote on election day/just have elections on sundays.

On April 13 2017 15:34 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2017 15:29 IgnE wrote:
On April 13 2017 14:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
On April 13 2017 14:12 Sermokala wrote:
On April 13 2017 14:04 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
I'm all for automatic voter registration but thats not politically viable.

one thing maybe is more candidates who are younger.

Tie voter registration to registering for the draft and a high school diploma or GED?

On April 13 2017 11:28 zlefin wrote:
On April 13 2017 11:18 Mohdoo wrote:
If Trump actually ends up trading currency manipulator status for NK, I will be impressed and will tip my fedora at m'basedemporerking

that's not gonna happen, it's far too uneven a trade. To get NK, you'd need to do something like give up taiwan.

giveing up the bases in SK and maybe the new base in the philipines might be enough. The biggest reason why NK was proped back up in the first place was to give a buffer state on the single land route to its important parts.

GH above I have no idea what a sudberry makover means and googling didn't help please explain.

And below there will always be politicians like there will always be bankers or merchants. There are margins and the truely Human thing is to have someone to fill that margin.


Basically:

A Sudbury school is a type of school, usually for the K-12 age range, where students have complete responsibility for their own education, and the school is run by direct democracy in which students and staff are equals.[1] Students individually decide what to do with their time, and tend to learn as a by-product of ordinary experience rather than through coursework. There is no predetermined educational syllabus, prescriptive curriculum or standardized instruction. This is a form of democratic education. Daniel Greenberg, one of the founders of the original Sudbury Model school, writes that the two things that distinguish a Sudbury Model school are that everyone - adults and children - are treated equally and that there is no authority other than that granted by the consent of the governed.[2]

While each Sudbury Model school operates independently and determines their own policies and procedures, they share a common culture.[3] The intended culture within a Sudbury school has been described with such words as freedom, trust, respect, responsibility and democracy.


Basically a school that prepares you to be a citizen as opposed to the school we currently have that prepares you to be... who fucking knows.


do you know anyone who has been through a sudbury school?


Not yet, I just recently found out about them. I plan on speaking with some in the near future though. It wouldn't have to be exactly like any existing Sudbury school. At least the democratic aspect would help, even if you kept a lot of the structure we're used to .


That sounds pretty interesting, though i would like to see some studies on the results of that type of education. There are a lot of ideas for alternative school structures that sound good, but sadly produce subpar results in all categories.

Generally speaking, education reform is hard. There are a lot of conflicting views on how schools should look like, and it is really hard to actually test which work out well, as you have at least 10 years of lag between implementation and first results. Furthermore, you also put the students you experiment on at risk of receiving a subpar education. Then you have the problem of self-selection. The only students who attend such an institution are those where the parents choose that, which is probably a specific type of parent.

And to have some reasonable results, you probably need to run a few of the same type of experimental schools at a few different places to correct for local factors.

Then you have to figure out how what you have been doing in an experimental setting with lots of young, motivated teachers and specific students in a general school setting with half the money and some teachers who will retire in 5 years and refuse to change anything about their routine.

I am not saying that it is impossible or that we shouldn't work on school reform. But it is really hard to do, and for something with such wide-reaching effects, you really should not do it on ideology alone, instead you need to invest the time and the money to get good empirical data. Which is hard, but needs to be done before you can have a good school reform. Anything else is just rolling the dice with a generation of students.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
April 13 2017 07:53 GMT
#146612
On April 13 2017 14:13 biology]major wrote:
No amount of education is going to change the fact that a voter has to receive a highly diluted and simplified, catchy, and provocative message. We actually need more honest politicians who want to do good, which happens by removing money from politics OR having an extremely wealthy politicians who aren't as easily manipulated. It's 2017, most people have internet access. You've got it backwards. Our politicians are failures, and they are stuck in ideology, and in that sense, Trump is still the most reasonable one there.

The paradoxical nature of this is that anyone wealthy enough that they "can't be bought" also owns enough things to produce significant conflicts of interest with respect to their policy decisions, one way or another. They can't be bought because they're already in too deep to begin with.
Moderator
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24505 Posts
April 13 2017 08:21 GMT
#146613
On April 13 2017 16:47 Simberto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2017 14:05 Introvert wrote:
We complain about the ignorance of the American voter and yet want to force people who don't already vote to vote? Forget arguments about forcing participation, that doesn't make sense on its own.


Before thinking about forcing people to vote, you should first make it easy for them to vote, nationwide. That means general access to voting locales in walking distance in cities / short drive distance if you are in bumfuck nowhere. Enough voting locales and staff so that you never have to wait for more than 30 minutes. And a legal right for time off to go vote on election day/just have elections on sundays.

Show nested quote +
On April 13 2017 15:34 GreenHorizons wrote:
On April 13 2017 15:29 IgnE wrote:
On April 13 2017 14:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
On April 13 2017 14:12 Sermokala wrote:
On April 13 2017 14:04 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
I'm all for automatic voter registration but thats not politically viable.

one thing maybe is more candidates who are younger.

Tie voter registration to registering for the draft and a high school diploma or GED?

On April 13 2017 11:28 zlefin wrote:
On April 13 2017 11:18 Mohdoo wrote:
If Trump actually ends up trading currency manipulator status for NK, I will be impressed and will tip my fedora at m'basedemporerking

that's not gonna happen, it's far too uneven a trade. To get NK, you'd need to do something like give up taiwan.

giveing up the bases in SK and maybe the new base in the philipines might be enough. The biggest reason why NK was proped back up in the first place was to give a buffer state on the single land route to its important parts.

GH above I have no idea what a sudberry makover means and googling didn't help please explain.

And below there will always be politicians like there will always be bankers or merchants. There are margins and the truely Human thing is to have someone to fill that margin.


Basically:

A Sudbury school is a type of school, usually for the K-12 age range, where students have complete responsibility for their own education, and the school is run by direct democracy in which students and staff are equals.[1] Students individually decide what to do with their time, and tend to learn as a by-product of ordinary experience rather than through coursework. There is no predetermined educational syllabus, prescriptive curriculum or standardized instruction. This is a form of democratic education. Daniel Greenberg, one of the founders of the original Sudbury Model school, writes that the two things that distinguish a Sudbury Model school are that everyone - adults and children - are treated equally and that there is no authority other than that granted by the consent of the governed.[2]

While each Sudbury Model school operates independently and determines their own policies and procedures, they share a common culture.[3] The intended culture within a Sudbury school has been described with such words as freedom, trust, respect, responsibility and democracy.


Basically a school that prepares you to be a citizen as opposed to the school we currently have that prepares you to be... who fucking knows.


do you know anyone who has been through a sudbury school?


Not yet, I just recently found out about them. I plan on speaking with some in the near future though. It wouldn't have to be exactly like any existing Sudbury school. At least the democratic aspect would help, even if you kept a lot of the structure we're used to .


That sounds pretty interesting, though i would like to see some studies on the results of that type of education. There are a lot of ideas for alternative school structures that sound good, but sadly produce subpar results in all categories.

Generally speaking, education reform is hard. There are a lot of conflicting views on how schools should look like, and it is really hard to actually test which work out well, as you have at least 10 years of lag between implementation and first results. Furthermore, you also put the students you experiment on at risk of receiving a subpar education. Then you have the problem of self-selection. The only students who attend such an institution are those where the parents choose that, which is probably a specific type of parent.

And to have some reasonable results, you probably need to run a few of the same type of experimental schools at a few different places to correct for local factors.

Then you have to figure out how what you have been doing in an experimental setting with lots of young, motivated teachers and specific students in a general school setting with half the money and some teachers who will retire in 5 years and refuse to change anything about their routine.

I am not saying that it is impossible or that we shouldn't work on school reform. But it is really hard to do, and for something with such wide-reaching effects, you really should not do it on ideology alone, instead you need to invest the time and the money to get good empirical data. Which is hard, but needs to be done before you can have a good school reform. Anything else is just rolling the dice with a generation of students.


Plenty of schools where "rolling the dice" would be better than what they have going now. Point taken on empirical data, but there are literally millions of students who are going to be woefully unprepared as is, no harm in trying something that anecdotally has been as/more successful as typically "successful" schools.

Though the larger point is that we need to expose and immerse our children in what it is to be a member of a democratic society from an early age if we want it to make any sense to them when they get older.

We need to commit to an overhaul.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Wegandi
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2455 Posts
April 13 2017 08:32 GMT
#146614
On April 13 2017 13:49 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2017 13:43 LegalLord wrote:
Still, support for UHC is rather substantial these days. Progress, finally.


That's a pretty unfavorable way to ask the question too. There was another poll out recently that had Republicans with a plurality in support.

It's pretty clear UHC is one of those things we want and our politicians don't for.... rea$on$.


I'm sure if you phrased the question honestly, "Do you support the Federal Government nationalizing Healthcare?", instead of calling it 'insurance' or 'universal health care' you'd get a significant difference in opinion. No one wants the VA to become the healthcare system and that's what "UHC" is. The Government can barely manage postage and you want to hand them healthcare?
Thank you bureaucrats for all your hard work, your commitment to public service and public good is essential to the lives of so many. Also, for Pete's sake can we please get some gun control already, no need for hand guns and assault rifles for the public
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France8222 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-13 08:43:59
April 13 2017 08:43 GMT
#146615
On April 13 2017 17:32 Wegandi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2017 13:49 GreenHorizons wrote:
On April 13 2017 13:43 LegalLord wrote:
Still, support for UHC is rather substantial these days. Progress, finally.


That's a pretty unfavorable way to ask the question too. There was another poll out recently that had Republicans with a plurality in support.

It's pretty clear UHC is one of those things we want and our politicians don't for.... rea$on$.


I'm sure if you phrased the question honestly, "Do you support the Federal Government nationalizing Healthcare?", instead of calling it 'insurance' or 'universal health care' you'd get a significant difference in opinion. No one wants the VA to become the healthcare system and that's what "UHC" is. The Government can barely manage postage and you want to hand them healthcare?

The government manages quite well the biggest army in history, and foreign governments manage their healthcare infinitly better than your private sector does.

The "government is baaaad" religion is as stupid as its opposite. I know people in France who thnk we should basically nationalize everything. That's not that much more dumb than this conservative dogma that everything should be privatized.

If I were you I would travel a bit. You might be surprised by how things work in other places, better and worse.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Yurie
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
12183 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-13 09:01:59
April 13 2017 08:47 GMT
#146616
On April 13 2017 17:32 Wegandi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2017 13:49 GreenHorizons wrote:
On April 13 2017 13:43 LegalLord wrote:
Still, support for UHC is rather substantial these days. Progress, finally.


That's a pretty unfavorable way to ask the question too. There was another poll out recently that had Republicans with a plurality in support.

It's pretty clear UHC is one of those things we want and our politicians don't for.... rea$on$.


I'm sure if you phrased the question honestly, "Do you support the Federal Government nationalizing Healthcare?", instead of calling it 'insurance' or 'universal health care' you'd get a significant difference in opinion. No one wants the VA to become the healthcare system and that's what "UHC" is. The Government can barely manage postage and you want to hand them healthcare?


Yes. The current solution isn't good. Nationalising it would remove most of the incentives in the current structure, so even if it turns out a failure it would have cut costs when it is removed.

Removing the entire health insurance block would be a large gain directly. 90% of the employees there can likely be cut. That they have a low profit margin isn't really relevant when they add a layer of administration with little to show for it. The same complaint people have about governments.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22703 Posts
April 13 2017 09:49 GMT
#146617
On April 13 2017 14:13 biology]major wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2017 14:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On April 13 2017 13:57 Yurie wrote:
On April 13 2017 13:52 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On April 13 2017 12:58 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
More proof that Boomer generation will go down as the most selfish and destructive generation in history.

https://twitter.com/crampell/status/852232657928937472

And this is why young people actually need to vote.


It is an interesting subject on how to complete that goal though. Maybe enforced compulsory voting might be a decent idea for a few elections to promote the culture?

A way to do it without adding direct costs to the government could be to deny passports and social security or similar subsidies if not voting or submitting a reason of why one can not.


We don't need compulsory voting. What we need is a nationwide Sudbury style makeover for our education system.


No amount of education is going to change the fact that a voter has to receive a highly diluted and simplified, catchy, and provocative message. We actually need more honest politicians who want to do good, which happens by removing money from politics OR having an extremely wealthy politicians who aren't as easily manipulated. It's 2017, most people have internet access. You've got it backwards. Our politicians are failures, and they are stuck in ideology, and in that sense, Trump is still the most reasonable one there.

Politician should not be a career.

Didn't we just prove that the idea that 'extremely wealthy politicians cant be manipulated' is utter horseshit by electing Trump?

Rich people buy your politicians, so lets elect a rich person instead is not 'draining the swamp'. Its cutting out the middle man.
How many big business people are in Trumps cabinet?

It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France8222 Posts
April 13 2017 12:47 GMT
#146618
On April 13 2017 18:49 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2017 14:13 biology]major wrote:
On April 13 2017 14:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On April 13 2017 13:57 Yurie wrote:
On April 13 2017 13:52 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On April 13 2017 12:58 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
More proof that Boomer generation will go down as the most selfish and destructive generation in history.

https://twitter.com/crampell/status/852232657928937472

And this is why young people actually need to vote.


It is an interesting subject on how to complete that goal though. Maybe enforced compulsory voting might be a decent idea for a few elections to promote the culture?

A way to do it without adding direct costs to the government could be to deny passports and social security or similar subsidies if not voting or submitting a reason of why one can not.


We don't need compulsory voting. What we need is a nationwide Sudbury style makeover for our education system.


No amount of education is going to change the fact that a voter has to receive a highly diluted and simplified, catchy, and provocative message. We actually need more honest politicians who want to do good, which happens by removing money from politics OR having an extremely wealthy politicians who aren't as easily manipulated. It's 2017, most people have internet access. You've got it backwards. Our politicians are failures, and they are stuck in ideology, and in that sense, Trump is still the most reasonable one there.

Politician should not be a career.

Didn't we just prove that the idea that 'extremely wealthy politicians cant be manipulated' is utter horseshit by electing Trump?

Rich people buy your politicians, so lets elect a rich person instead is not 'draining the swamp'. Its cutting out the middle man.
How many big business people are in Trumps cabinet?


Berlusconi got elected that way, by making people believe he was too rich to be bought (the good joke). Ended up with the most corrupt european government in decades, somewhat.

Hard to believe people can buy this kind of reasonings.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
April 13 2017 12:51 GMT
#146619
Voting for super-rich people because they would be immune to corruption is stupid indeed: they don't need to be bought... since they're already convinced. Otherwise they would not belong to the ruling class to begin with...
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
April 13 2017 13:12 GMT
#146620
On April 13 2017 17:32 Wegandi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2017 13:49 GreenHorizons wrote:
On April 13 2017 13:43 LegalLord wrote:
Still, support for UHC is rather substantial these days. Progress, finally.


That's a pretty unfavorable way to ask the question too. There was another poll out recently that had Republicans with a plurality in support.

It's pretty clear UHC is one of those things we want and our politicians don't for.... rea$on$.


I'm sure if you phrased the question honestly, "Do you support the Federal Government nationalizing Healthcare?", instead of calling it 'insurance' or 'universal health care' you'd get a significant difference in opinion. No one wants the VA to become the healthcare system and that's what "UHC" is. The Government can barely manage postage and you want to hand them healthcare?

More that the same people that gave us Medicare, Medicaid, and the VA system, should be trusted to get your shiny socialized medicine program and not a version of it that goes horribly wrong.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
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