|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On April 12 2017 10:18 m4ini wrote:
Yeah, man. United might be eviler than Hitler, but not Assad.
edit: and no. I don't think this is a ploy to distract. That's way too far fetched. Especially considering that Spicer constantly fumbles and stumbles through those meetings.
The best way to get through these things unscathed is to learn to have a completely tangential relation with the truth. They can't spring a gotcha on you if you just keep on making stuff up.
|
I keep waiting for Trump to say something stupid about the United incident. It's kind of his bailiwick.
But uh, to bring it to be politically related, apparently China is pretty annoyed about the whole incident.
By now, you’ve seen the video of a paying customer being dragged from a United Airlines flight. So, too, have the Chinese, who are not happy with how the airline treated the Asian-American man.
Andrew Peng, an international reporter with China Central Television, explained to us that the topic is every bit as viral and buzzy in China as it is in America, where the footage is being looped on cable television, Twitter users are trending it nonstop, and stock in the company is way down.
‘The hashtag ‘UA forcibly removing passengers” on Weibo got 340 million readers and over 180 thousand discussions,” Peng explained after checking in on Chinese social media. “Joe Wong, a Chinese American comedian, says many Chinese don’t speak out while [being discriminated against] for saving face, so many in Western media and the public don’t take seriously discrimination against Asian Americans. This post became a hit on Weibo. Netizens commented on this matter, ‘This is a doctor saving others’ lives. Shame on UA.'”
Peng noted other posts on Weibo that said things like “it’s a massive joke that America is the best country with human rights!!!” and “He might not have been chosen because he’s Chinese, but the way he was treated was because he’s Chinese.”
Ultimately, one user summed it up like this: “America is disappointing.”
http://www.mediaite.com/online/that-united-airlines-video-was-so-bad-even-china-is-peeved-america-is-disappointing/
(I've seen a few other sources along similar lines, too lazy to find them atm though).
Also there's this :
|
On April 12 2017 10:21 Plansix wrote:
My favorite part about is everyone claiming "The doctor was trespassing, airlines can do that." As someone who has worked on a bunch injunctions to stop trespassers for various reasons, at no point did we ever tell our clients "If they don't listen to this, just have the police beat the shit out of them. It's cool."
Not to mention, that they can't do that for a different reason. First, the doctor wasn't trespassing, he had every right to be there. Second, the guidelines apparently state that in these cases, people can be denied boarding. Boarding already happened, so by uniteds own guidelines (that's legal mumbo jumbo that's way over my head though) they might not have a leg to stand on.
Didn't mean to start this again though.
edit: @above, this is mainly because for some reason the rumour was spreading that this was a racial motivated incident. While United might be eviler than Hitler (and shady af on top) - i actually rather doubt that explanation. He was just the cheapest "compensation-target", if handled correctly. That US police, lets say, "very rarely" gets a bit "overeager" with the use of force, is old news as well. No idea if the US generally is discriminatory against asians (didn't have the impression, but that's just that), but this is not related to race imho.
|
last time I heard data, US police tend to go easy on asians (they're less likely to be stopped/punished etc than whites). but that was a long time ago, and may've been on some more specific things like drugs stops, or car stops, or something.
|
United States43271 Posts
On April 12 2017 10:16 LegalLord wrote:
I do have to say though, Spicey added an additional layer to this shitshow. Investigations for Russia ties, starting an international feud with Russia, and now Assad is eviler than Hitler.
Because while he does acknowledge that Hitler did use poison gas in his Holocaust camps it's important to recognize that Assad used gas on innocent people, presumably unlike Hitler.
|
United States43271 Posts
On April 12 2017 10:21 Plansix wrote:
My favorite part about is everyone claiming "The doctor was trespassing, airlines can do that." As someone who has worked on a bunch injunctions to stop trespassers for various reasons, at no point did we ever tell our clients "If they don't listen to this, just have the police beat the shit out of them. It's cool."
The real lesson from this is don't call the police for conflict resolution assistance unless you want the conflict to be resolved with a fist. But most people knew that already, for some reason corporate America hasn't caught up. But they sure as hell will have after this. The main takeaway will be that twitter is unable or unwilling to distinguish between "United beat the shit out of some doctor" and "United watched as the police they called beat the shit out of some doctor".
|
On April 12 2017 10:36 zlefin wrote:
last time I heard data, US police tend to go easy on asians (they're less likely to be stopped/punished etc than whites). but that was a long time ago, and may've been on some more specific things like drugs stops, or car stops, or something.
I think this is true in large cities. I'm invisible in NYC, and I never had anyone look at me twice in big cities like Boston, Philly, Vegas, etc.
In smaller towns, I get more notice.
|
United is just a shitty miserable excuse for an airline. I feel terrible the whole flight whenever I'm stuck with them. This is pretty par for the course.
|
On April 12 2017 10:39 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2017 10:21 Plansix wrote:
My favorite part about is everyone claiming "The doctor was trespassing, airlines can do that." As someone who has worked on a bunch injunctions to stop trespassers for various reasons, at no point did we ever tell our clients "If they don't listen to this, just have the police beat the shit out of them. It's cool." The real lesson from this is don't call the police for conflict resolution assistance unless you want the conflict to be resolved with a fist. But most people knew that immediately, for some reason corporate America hasn't caught up. But they sure as hell will have after this. The main takeaway will be that twitter is unable or unwilling to distinguish between "United beat the shit out of some doctor" and "United watched as the police they called beat the shit out of some doctor".
You know, i halfway agree with this, but that's missing some important parts on behalf of United. Starting from people offering to volunteer for a higher price than that which was offered. Which was also offered in form of a voucher, which is an insult and a half on top. Next, there apparently were flights those four staffers could've used, which would've been cheaper than reimbursing the bumped passengers, etc.
So, while i agree that United didn't beat that guy up, they certainly actively played a negative role that led to it.
I think this is true in large cities. I'm invisible in NYC, and I never had anyone look at me twice in big cities like Boston, Philly, Vegas, etc.
Fits my impression in regards to the US and asians, which makes me doubt the racially loaded "explanation".
|
|
|
Probable cause is rather subjective though, isn't it? To me personally that interview where he acted like he just got caught stealing candy in a supermarket would be enough probable cause to investigate. That doesn't mean much though. Paragraph E seems pretty fitting in that regard.
|
On April 12 2017 10:30 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2017 10:21 Plansix wrote:
My favorite part about is everyone claiming "The doctor was trespassing, airlines can do that." As someone who has worked on a bunch injunctions to stop trespassers for various reasons, at no point did we ever tell our clients "If they don't listen to this, just have the police beat the shit out of them. It's cool." Not to mention, that they can't do that for a different reason. First, the doctor wasn't trespassing, he had every right to be there. Second, the guidelines apparently state that in these cases, people can be denied boarding. Boarding already happened, so by uniteds own guidelines (that's legal mumbo jumbo that's way over my head though) they might not have a leg to stand on. Didn't mean to start this again though. edit: @above, this is mainly because for some reason the rumour was spreading that this was a racial motivated incident. While United might be eviler than Hitler (and shady af on top) - i actually rather doubt that explanation. He was just the cheapest "compensation-target", if handled correctly. That US police, lets say, "very rarely" gets a bit "overeager" with the use of force, is old news as well. No idea if the US generally is discriminatory against asians (didn't have the impression, but that's just that), but this is not related to race imho.
So, i am just getting into this story. If i understand this correctly, United for some reason apparently needed to get some paying customers off to make room for some of their own staff. So they just randomly choose 4 people and say "You guys gotta get off the plane that you paid for, that you already boarded, and that probably has your cargo in it. Have fun.", One of them says "fuck no", and they get the airport police to beat him up.
I gotta say, how the fuck is that legal? If i get a ticket for a flight, i assume that i will be able to fly with that flight, and not be randomly kicked off it because someone feels like they need the spot more. And if you want my spot, you better make a good offer. Like "Ok, you can take the next flight, and here is another 500 bucks for your trouble" As long as you continue bidding that money upwards, you will eventually find enough people who will voluntarily give up their spot. And if that is too expensive for you, just have some spots empty just in case you need them. Both of those would be reasonable reactions. What apparently happened is just...wtf. How is that legal, and even if it is, how does anyone think that that is a good idea to do?
I know that i wouldn't buy a flight with an airline that can will just randomly have me beaten of the plane when they feel like it.
|
So, i am just getting into this story. If i understand this correctly, United for some reason apparently needed to get some paying customers off to make room for some of their own staff. So they just randomly choose 4 people and say "You guys gotta get off the plane that you paid for, that you already boarded, and that probably has your cargo in it. Have fun.", One of them says "fuck no", and they get the airport police to beat him up.
No, not randomly. The ones with the cheapest tickets, because cheaper tickets = less compensation. Other than that, pretty much.
I gotta say, how the fuck is that legal? If i get a ticket for a flight, i assume that i will be able to fly with that flight, and not be randomly kicked off it because someone feels like they need the spot more. And if you want my spot, you better make a good offer. Like "Ok, you can take the next flight, and here is another 500 bucks for your trouble" As long as you continue bidding that money upwards, you will eventually find enough people who will voluntarily give up their spot. And if that is too expensive for you, just have some spots empty just in case you need them. Both of those would be reasonable reactions. What apparently happened is just...wtf. How is that legal, and even if it is, how does anyone think that that is a good idea to do?
Well, yes. It's legal. And B, it's not even uncommon. I was surprised by that too, but here goes.
http://www.lufthansa.com/cmn/de/passagierrechte
Under "Ueberbuchung". So it's not a US problem, that's normal practice. Which would also be fine if you get compensated accordingly, which i'd argue wasn't offered in this situation (again, there were people offering to get bumped if they get more than what was offered willy nilly and cash rather than a voucher).
I know that i wouldn't buy a flight with an airline that can will just randomly have me beaten of the plane when they feel like it.
Usually this happens without the beating part. Never experienced it, but german airlines have that clause too.
edit: what's more important though, United guidelines clearly state that you can be denied boarding in case the seat is needed (and get compensated). He wasn't denied boarding, he was denied the flight. Not to mention, the plane wasn't actually overbooked, but full. They just needed four seats for their employees.
|
Generally they overbook (sell more tickets than there are seats) then offer people a few hundred dollars to give up their flight for the next one. Naturally people have shit to do so it's hard to get people to give up their seats. And there's a legal minimum you have to be paid (double or quadruple ticket price depending on delay) if you are forcibly removed, which is generally more than what they offer for voluntary postponement. Here it looks like they couldn't get it and decided to force the issue with police instead which is 100% on them.
|
The plane allegedly wasn't overbooked though, but "full". They needed it to be "full minus four for our guys". Which i'd argue is different.
|
United States43271 Posts
On April 12 2017 10:48 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2017 10:30 m4ini wrote:On April 12 2017 10:21 Plansix wrote:
My favorite part about is everyone claiming "The doctor was trespassing, airlines can do that." As someone who has worked on a bunch injunctions to stop trespassers for various reasons, at no point did we ever tell our clients "If they don't listen to this, just have the police beat the shit out of them. It's cool." Not to mention, that they can't do that for a different reason. First, the doctor wasn't trespassing, he had every right to be there. Second, the guidelines apparently state that in these cases, people can be denied boarding. Boarding already happened, so by uniteds own guidelines (that's legal mumbo jumbo that's way over my head though) they might not have a leg to stand on. Didn't mean to start this again though. edit: @above, this is mainly because for some reason the rumour was spreading that this was a racial motivated incident. While United might be eviler than Hitler (and shady af on top) - i actually rather doubt that explanation. He was just the cheapest "compensation-target", if handled correctly. That US police, lets say, "very rarely" gets a bit "overeager" with the use of force, is old news as well. No idea if the US generally is discriminatory against asians (didn't have the impression, but that's just that), but this is not related to race imho. So, i am just getting into this story. If i understand this correctly, United for some reason apparently needed to get some paying customers off to make room for some of their own staff. So they just randomly choose 4 people and say "You guys gotta get off the plane that you paid for, that you already boarded, and that probably has your cargo in it. Have fun.", One of them says "fuck no", and they get the airport police to beat him up. I gotta say, how the fuck is that legal? If i get a ticket for a flight, i assume that i will be able to fly with that flight, and not be randomly kicked off it because someone feels like they need the spot more. And if you want my spot, you better make a good offer. Like "Ok, you can take the next flight, and here is another 500 bucks for your trouble" As long as you continue bidding that money upwards, you will eventually find enough people who will voluntarily give up their spot. And if that is too expensive for you, just have some spots empty just in case you need them. Both of those would be reasonable reactions. What apparently happened is just...wtf. How is that legal, and even if it is, how does anyone think that that is a good idea to do? I know that i wouldn't buy a flight with an airline that can will just randomly have me beaten of the plane when they feel like it.
It almost certainly could have happened in any large organization sufficiently big to have an isolated chain of command populated entirely by idiots. This is a police brutality story and whether or not it's legal doesn't really have anything to do with it. If two five year old kids are playing and one of them is hogging a football so the other one takes the football to play with it themselves and won't give it back even though it belongs to the kid who was hogging it then a petty theft has taken place. But if the police were called to resolve the conflict I'd expect them to stop short of violence because it'd be dumb as fuck. In an ideal world the police would have showed up, listened to both sides, and then pointed out that the entire argument isn't worth anything like the costs involved in resolving it.
I'm sure all the other airlines are pissing themselves laughing about this misfortune but I'm also pretty sure that they will be sending out memos along the lines of "don't call the cops until after you've called our media relations phone number and explained what the issue is".
|
Well calling the cops is entirely fine. I've yet to see a cop escalate so far to knock somebody out cold, drag him out of somewhere with a heavy concussion - then let that completely confused and disoriented person run back into the plane, bleeding all over the place.
The officer was btw put on leave afaik.
Sidenote: that doc is 70 years old. Slamming him into the armrest could've easily killed him. Although, just read about it, he doesn't seem to be an innocent flower himself either. Not that this would amend anything of what happened, just surprised.
|
Except they are the Chicago PD, so it isn't fine at all. One does not call the Chicago PD on someone and expect at non-violent resolution.
In reality, we should all just accept there is a chance that the police will beat the shit out they take into custody.
|
I'm not fluent in the "US Police Department Violence Chart", so apologies for that.
It's just hard to wrap your head around that, not growing up with this. No police force is without flaw, but i don't think i've ever heard of police districts over here where police is known to be more violent than others.
Not that our police does a perfect job, not by a long shot. But comments like this make me wonder if we didn't get really lucky with what we have.
edit: as an interesting (and really infuriating) tidbit, United is "tweaking" statistics in regards to dead animals, by the looks. I personally think it's a fuck up of titanic proportions to stick your dog into the cargo hold of a plane in the first place, i understand that sometimes it has to happen though. Apparently, if your animal dies or gets severely injured, you have to sign a NDA to get compensation etc, which also means those incidents don't show up in statistics.
That should actually be illegal.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
