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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
April 04 2017 20:24 GMT
#145221
On April 05 2017 02:45 xDaunt wrote:
More news agencies are starting to pick up on this Susan Rice thing. Yeah, she's in trouble:

Show nested quote +
The thing to bear in mind is that the White House does not do investigations. Not criminal investigations, not intelligence investigations.

Remember that.

Why is that so important in the context of explosive revelations that Susan Rice, President Obama’s national-security adviser, confidant, and chief dissembler, called for the “unmasking” of Trump campaign and transition officials whose identities and communications were captured in the collection of U.S. intelligence on foreign targets?

Because we’ve been told for weeks that any unmasking of people in Trump’s circle that may have occurred had two innocent explanations: (1) the FBI’s investigation of Russian meddling in the election and (2) the need to know, for purposes of understanding the communications of foreign intelligence targets, the identities of Americans incidentally intercepted or mentioned. The unmasking, Obama apologists insist, had nothing to do with targeting Trump or his people.

That won’t wash.

In general, it is the FBI that conducts investigations that bear on American citizens suspected of committing crimes or of acting as agents of foreign powers. In the matter of alleged Russian meddling, the investigative camp also includes the CIA and the NSA. All three agencies conducted a probe and issued a joint report in January. That was after Obama, despite having previously acknowledged that the Russian activity was inconsequential, suddenly made a great show of ordering an inquiry and issuing sanctions.

Consequently, if unmasking was relevant to the Russia investigation, it would have been done by those three agencies. And if it had been critical to know the identities of Americans caught up in other foreign intelligence efforts, the agencies that collect the information and conduct investigations would have unmasked it. Because they are the agencies that collect and refine intelligence “products” for the rest of the “intelligence community,” they are responsible for any unmasking; and they do it under “minimization” standards that FBI Director James Comey, in recent congressional testimony, described as “obsessive” in their determination to protect the identities and privacy of Americans.

Understand: There would have been no intelligence need for Susan Rice to ask for identities to be unmasked. If there had been a real need to reveal the identities — an intelligence need based on American interests — the unmasking would have been done by the investigating agencies.

The national-security adviser is not an investigator. She is a White House staffer. The president’s staff is a consumer of intelligence, not a generator or collector of it. If Susan Rice was unmasking Americans, it was not to fulfill an intelligence need based on American interests; it was to fulfill a political desire based on Democratic-party interests.

The FBI, CIA, and NSA generate or collect the intelligence in, essentially, three ways: conducting surveillance on suspected agents of foreign powers under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), and carrying out more-sweeping collections under two other authorities — a different provision of FISA, and a Reagan-era executive order that has been amended several times over the ensuing decades, EO 12,333.

As Director Comey explained, in answering questions posed by Representative Trey Gowdy (R., S.C.), those three agencies do collection, investigation, and analysis. In general, they handle any necessary unmasking — which, due to the aforementioned privacy obsessiveness, is extremely rare. Unlike Democratic-party operatives whose obsession is vanquishing Republicans, the three agencies have to be concerned about the privacy rights of Americans. If they’re not, their legal authority to collect the intelligence — a vital national-security power — could be severely curtailed when it periodically comes up for review by Congress, as it will later this year.

Those three collecting agencies — FBI, CIA, and NSA — must be distinguished from other components of the government, such as the White House. Those other components, Comey elaborated, “are consumers of our products.” That is, they do not collect raw intelligence and refine it into useful reports — i.e., reports that balance informational value and required privacy protections. They read those reports and make policy recommendations based on them. White House staffers are not supposed to be in the business of controlling the content of the reports; they merely act on the reports.

Thus, Comey added, these consumers “can ask the collectors to unmask.” But the unmasking authority “resides with those who collected the information.”

Of course, the consumer doing the asking in this case was not just any government official. We’re talking about Susan Rice. This was Obama’s right hand doing the asking. If she made an unmasking “request,” do you suppose anyone at the FBI, CIA, or NSA was going to say no?

That brings us to three interesting points.

The first involves political intrusion into law enforcement — something that the White House is supposed to avoid. (You may remember that Democrats ran Bush attorney general Alberto Gonzales out of town over suspicions about it.) As I have noted repeatedly, in publishing the illegally leaked classified information about former national-security adviser Michael Flynn’s communications with Russian ambassador Sergey Kislyak, the New York Times informs us that “Obama advisers” and “Obama officials” were up to their eyeballs in the investigation:

Obama advisers heard separately from the F.B.I. about Mr. Flynn’s conversation with Mr. Kislyak, whose calls were routinely monitored by American intelligence agencies that track Russian diplomats. The Obama advisers grew suspicious that perhaps there had been a secret deal between the incoming team and Moscow, which could violate the rarely enforced, two-century-old Logan Act barring private citizens from negotiating with foreign powers in disputes with the United States. The Obama officials asked the F.B.I. if a quid pro quo had been discussed on the call, and the answer came back no, according to one of the officials, who like others asked not to be named discussing delicate communications. [Translation: “asked not to be named committing felony unauthorized disclosure of classified information.”] The topic of sanctions came up, they were told, but there was no deal. [Emphasis added.]

It appears very likely that Susan Rice was involved in the unmasking of Michael Flynn. Was she also monitoring the FBI’s investigation? Was she involved in the administration’s consideration of (bogus) criminal charges against Flynn? With the subsequent decision to have the FBI interrogate Flynn (or “grill” him, as the Times put it)?

The second point is that, while not a pillar of rectitude, Ms. Rice is not an idiot. Besides being shrewd, she was a highly involved, highly informed consumer of intelligence, and a key Obama political collaborator. Unlike the casual reader, she would have known who the Trump-team players were without needing to have their identities unmasked. Do you really think her purpose in demanding that names be revealed was to enhance her understanding of intelligence about the activities and intentions of foreign targets? Seriously? I’m betting it was so that others down the dissemination chain could see the names of Trump associates — names the investigating agencies that originally collected the information had determined not to unmask.

Third, and finally, let’s consider the dissemination chain Rice had in mind.

The most telling remark that former Obama deputy defense secretary Evelyn Farkas made in her now-infamous MSNBC interview was the throw-away line at the end: “That’s why you have all the leaking.”

Put this in context: Farkas had left the Obama administration in 2015, subsequently joining the presidential campaign of, yes, Hillary Clinton — Trump’s opponent. She told MSNBC that she had been encouraging her former Obama-administration colleagues and members of Congress to seek “as much information as you can” from the intelligence community.

“That’s why you have the leaking.”

To summarize: At a high level, officials like Susan Rice had names unmasked that would not ordinarily be unmasked. That information was then being pushed widely throughout the intelligence community in unmasked form . . . particularly after Obama, toward the end of his presidency, suddenly — and seemingly apropos of nothing — changed the rules so that all of the intelligence agencies (not just the collecting agencies) could have access to raw intelligence information.

As we know, the community of intelligence agencies leaks like a sieve, and the more access there is to juicy information, the more leaks there are. Meanwhile, former Obama officials and Clinton-campaign advisers, like Farkas, were pushing to get the information transferred from the intelligence community to members of Congress, geometrically increasing the likelihood of intelligence leaks.

By the way, have you noticed that there have been lots of intelligence leaks in the press?

There’s an old saying in the criminal law: The best evidence of a conspiracy is success.

The criminal law also has another good rule of thumb: Consciousness of guilt is best proved by false exculpatory statements. That’s a genre in which Susan Rice has rich experience.

Two weeks ago, she was asked in an interview about allegations by House Intelligence Committee Chairman Devin Nunes (R., Calif.) that the Obama administration had unmasked Trump-team members. “I know nothing about this,” Rice replied. “I was surprised to see reports from Chairman Nunes on that count today.”

Well, at least she didn’t blame it on a video.


Source.

Note the parting comments at the end about the lies from Rice already starting to mount.

CNN aside, here's a brilliant chance for reporters taking a nap for the last eight years to surge back into relevance. Unmasking to illegally leak and damage the incoming administration is a serious charge. We'll see the dividing line on partisanship as people take it seriously or pretend it isn't worth discussion.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 04 2017 20:27 GMT
#145222
On April 05 2017 05:24 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2017 02:45 xDaunt wrote:
More news agencies are starting to pick up on this Susan Rice thing. Yeah, she's in trouble:

The thing to bear in mind is that the White House does not do investigations. Not criminal investigations, not intelligence investigations.

Remember that.

Why is that so important in the context of explosive revelations that Susan Rice, President Obama’s national-security adviser, confidant, and chief dissembler, called for the “unmasking” of Trump campaign and transition officials whose identities and communications were captured in the collection of U.S. intelligence on foreign targets?

Because we’ve been told for weeks that any unmasking of people in Trump’s circle that may have occurred had two innocent explanations: (1) the FBI’s investigation of Russian meddling in the election and (2) the need to know, for purposes of understanding the communications of foreign intelligence targets, the identities of Americans incidentally intercepted or mentioned. The unmasking, Obama apologists insist, had nothing to do with targeting Trump or his people.

That won’t wash.

In general, it is the FBI that conducts investigations that bear on American citizens suspected of committing crimes or of acting as agents of foreign powers. In the matter of alleged Russian meddling, the investigative camp also includes the CIA and the NSA. All three agencies conducted a probe and issued a joint report in January. That was after Obama, despite having previously acknowledged that the Russian activity was inconsequential, suddenly made a great show of ordering an inquiry and issuing sanctions.

Consequently, if unmasking was relevant to the Russia investigation, it would have been done by those three agencies. And if it had been critical to know the identities of Americans caught up in other foreign intelligence efforts, the agencies that collect the information and conduct investigations would have unmasked it. Because they are the agencies that collect and refine intelligence “products” for the rest of the “intelligence community,” they are responsible for any unmasking; and they do it under “minimization” standards that FBI Director James Comey, in recent congressional testimony, described as “obsessive” in their determination to protect the identities and privacy of Americans.

Understand: There would have been no intelligence need for Susan Rice to ask for identities to be unmasked. If there had been a real need to reveal the identities — an intelligence need based on American interests — the unmasking would have been done by the investigating agencies.

The national-security adviser is not an investigator. She is a White House staffer. The president’s staff is a consumer of intelligence, not a generator or collector of it. If Susan Rice was unmasking Americans, it was not to fulfill an intelligence need based on American interests; it was to fulfill a political desire based on Democratic-party interests.

The FBI, CIA, and NSA generate or collect the intelligence in, essentially, three ways: conducting surveillance on suspected agents of foreign powers under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), and carrying out more-sweeping collections under two other authorities — a different provision of FISA, and a Reagan-era executive order that has been amended several times over the ensuing decades, EO 12,333.

As Director Comey explained, in answering questions posed by Representative Trey Gowdy (R., S.C.), those three agencies do collection, investigation, and analysis. In general, they handle any necessary unmasking — which, due to the aforementioned privacy obsessiveness, is extremely rare. Unlike Democratic-party operatives whose obsession is vanquishing Republicans, the three agencies have to be concerned about the privacy rights of Americans. If they’re not, their legal authority to collect the intelligence — a vital national-security power — could be severely curtailed when it periodically comes up for review by Congress, as it will later this year.

Those three collecting agencies — FBI, CIA, and NSA — must be distinguished from other components of the government, such as the White House. Those other components, Comey elaborated, “are consumers of our products.” That is, they do not collect raw intelligence and refine it into useful reports — i.e., reports that balance informational value and required privacy protections. They read those reports and make policy recommendations based on them. White House staffers are not supposed to be in the business of controlling the content of the reports; they merely act on the reports.

Thus, Comey added, these consumers “can ask the collectors to unmask.” But the unmasking authority “resides with those who collected the information.”

Of course, the consumer doing the asking in this case was not just any government official. We’re talking about Susan Rice. This was Obama’s right hand doing the asking. If she made an unmasking “request,” do you suppose anyone at the FBI, CIA, or NSA was going to say no?

That brings us to three interesting points.

The first involves political intrusion into law enforcement — something that the White House is supposed to avoid. (You may remember that Democrats ran Bush attorney general Alberto Gonzales out of town over suspicions about it.) As I have noted repeatedly, in publishing the illegally leaked classified information about former national-security adviser Michael Flynn’s communications with Russian ambassador Sergey Kislyak, the New York Times informs us that “Obama advisers” and “Obama officials” were up to their eyeballs in the investigation:

Obama advisers heard separately from the F.B.I. about Mr. Flynn’s conversation with Mr. Kislyak, whose calls were routinely monitored by American intelligence agencies that track Russian diplomats. The Obama advisers grew suspicious that perhaps there had been a secret deal between the incoming team and Moscow, which could violate the rarely enforced, two-century-old Logan Act barring private citizens from negotiating with foreign powers in disputes with the United States. The Obama officials asked the F.B.I. if a quid pro quo had been discussed on the call, and the answer came back no, according to one of the officials, who like others asked not to be named discussing delicate communications. [Translation: “asked not to be named committing felony unauthorized disclosure of classified information.”] The topic of sanctions came up, they were told, but there was no deal. [Emphasis added.]

It appears very likely that Susan Rice was involved in the unmasking of Michael Flynn. Was she also monitoring the FBI’s investigation? Was she involved in the administration’s consideration of (bogus) criminal charges against Flynn? With the subsequent decision to have the FBI interrogate Flynn (or “grill” him, as the Times put it)?

The second point is that, while not a pillar of rectitude, Ms. Rice is not an idiot. Besides being shrewd, she was a highly involved, highly informed consumer of intelligence, and a key Obama political collaborator. Unlike the casual reader, she would have known who the Trump-team players were without needing to have their identities unmasked. Do you really think her purpose in demanding that names be revealed was to enhance her understanding of intelligence about the activities and intentions of foreign targets? Seriously? I’m betting it was so that others down the dissemination chain could see the names of Trump associates — names the investigating agencies that originally collected the information had determined not to unmask.

Third, and finally, let’s consider the dissemination chain Rice had in mind.

The most telling remark that former Obama deputy defense secretary Evelyn Farkas made in her now-infamous MSNBC interview was the throw-away line at the end: “That’s why you have all the leaking.”

Put this in context: Farkas had left the Obama administration in 2015, subsequently joining the presidential campaign of, yes, Hillary Clinton — Trump’s opponent. She told MSNBC that she had been encouraging her former Obama-administration colleagues and members of Congress to seek “as much information as you can” from the intelligence community.

“That’s why you have the leaking.”

To summarize: At a high level, officials like Susan Rice had names unmasked that would not ordinarily be unmasked. That information was then being pushed widely throughout the intelligence community in unmasked form . . . particularly after Obama, toward the end of his presidency, suddenly — and seemingly apropos of nothing — changed the rules so that all of the intelligence agencies (not just the collecting agencies) could have access to raw intelligence information.

As we know, the community of intelligence agencies leaks like a sieve, and the more access there is to juicy information, the more leaks there are. Meanwhile, former Obama officials and Clinton-campaign advisers, like Farkas, were pushing to get the information transferred from the intelligence community to members of Congress, geometrically increasing the likelihood of intelligence leaks.

By the way, have you noticed that there have been lots of intelligence leaks in the press?

There’s an old saying in the criminal law: The best evidence of a conspiracy is success.

The criminal law also has another good rule of thumb: Consciousness of guilt is best proved by false exculpatory statements. That’s a genre in which Susan Rice has rich experience.

Two weeks ago, she was asked in an interview about allegations by House Intelligence Committee Chairman Devin Nunes (R., Calif.) that the Obama administration had unmasked Trump-team members. “I know nothing about this,” Rice replied. “I was surprised to see reports from Chairman Nunes on that count today.”

Well, at least she didn’t blame it on a video.


Source.

Note the parting comments at the end about the lies from Rice already starting to mount.

CNN aside, here's a brilliant chance for reporters taking a nap for the last eight years to surge back into relevance. Unmasking to illegally leak and damage the incoming administration is a serious charge. We'll see the dividing line on partisanship as people take it seriously or pretend it isn't worth discussion.

This assumes the intent was to leak and not just hand the information over the senate intelligence committee. There are plenty of valid reasons to ask those people to be unmasked. One of those is that the incoming administration can’t investigate itself.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43505 Posts
April 04 2017 20:28 GMT
#145223
On April 05 2017 05:19 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2017 00:00 KwarK wrote:
On April 04 2017 23:50 Danglars wrote:
On April 04 2017 23:11 LightSpectra wrote:
On April 04 2017 23:02 Danglars wrote:
On April 04 2017 22:34 LightSpectra wrote:
On April 04 2017 22:31 Danglars wrote:
Opponents call him racist, like always, and he's already used to that kind of slander so things are good.


In other words, racism's okay so long as you tough it out for a really long time and hope that eventually another racist promotes you for it.

Sessions thinks it's okay for the government to sell your house because your second cousin in another state is a drug dealer. He also thinks cancer patients using medical marijuana should go to prison. Is this really the hill you want to die on Danglars?

Racism's been an empty threat for years and I'm surprised people like you still cling to it.


Racists don't stop being racist because other racists have decided to vote for them.

But yeah, you happen to be right that it's an "empty threat" insofar that it doesn't really convince Republicans to not vote for them. That being said, it's really not a badge of honor like you make it out to be.

If you want to bring up other topics of criticism for justice department policies, I suggest you start in with something other than second cousins and prison for cancer victims and his remarks on the matter. So calm down the unwarranted trolling if you're actually into more depth than top 10 things to hate about Sessions.



I say this without exaggeration: Jeff Sessions is the most evil and dangerous person affiliated with Trump, and that's really saying something. There are no informed people who think Sessions deciding to "review" police departments is going to result in anything but more unarmed people being shot in the back without repercussion.

If that's the stakes of your engagement I'll give mine. Jeff Sessions is one of th brightest lights in the Trump administration, and a decent and honest man. I could think of few better to undo the despicable leadership of Holder and Lynch who politicized the department beyond belief. There are few criticisms I've seen leveled at the man that haven't subsisted on lies, twisted half-truths, and the most bitter hyperpartisanship as has persisted in the post-Clinton years. You've welcomed identity politics and benefited from false accusations of racism, so I say you deserve another dozen Trump administrations that push white & working class identity politics and cause chaos in the executive branch.

Out of curiousity do you think that cannabis is as bad as Sessions says it is or do you recognize it as the continuation of Nixon's Southern Strategy war on drugs associated with minorities?

I'm opposed on the merits not on some grand political strategy.

Could you clarify this? Do you support Sessions' attack on state's rights and cannabis users or do you oppose it? If you support it, do you support it because you think he's right (and every study on it is wrong) about the harm?
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
April 04 2017 20:30 GMT
#145224
For her part, Rice denies leaking anything or there being any spreadsheets. She says that was was done was routine. The stories in question do not actually allege leaking, just requests to learn. So if you get to assume she's guilty, we get to assume the Trump campaign is guilty .
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
April 04 2017 20:31 GMT
#145225
...If she made an unmasking “request,” do you suppose anyone at the FBI, CIA, or NSA was going to say no?...


Wait, wait, this is the scandal? That people can't fathom intelligence agencies understanding their jobs and responsibilities, and that they couldn't possibly say no to a government official?
Average means I'm better than half of you.
Slaughter
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States20254 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-04 20:38:31
April 04 2017 20:36 GMT
#145226
On April 05 2017 05:31 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Show nested quote +
...If she made an unmasking “request,” do you suppose anyone at the FBI, CIA, or NSA was going to say no?...


Wait, wait, this is the scandal? That people can't fathom intelligence agencies understanding their jobs and responsibilities, and that they couldn't possibly say no to a government official?


Its the scandal Trump's Admin desperately needs to district people. He has so much heat on him its not funny. Russia, his nepotism, and his general incompetence basically are building into a vortex of hate on him and his admin.

Its why you see people still bringing up Clinton and now these Obama "scandals". Its more smoke and mirrors to hide how shit Trump is.

I don't think Trump himself really did anything with Russia but he works with shady people who do shady things and when they skirt the rules here and there it will look bad. Plus a good chance some of his people just did shit on his own. Kind of like what I used to hear about Grant, probably wasn't really that corrupt himself but picked a lot of corrupt and shady people to be in his admin.
Never Knows Best.
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35165 Posts
April 04 2017 20:40 GMT
#145227
Guys guys, the Russian investigation is unfounded nonsense, but this person trying to actually do her job is the devil because it sounds scary!
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
April 04 2017 20:44 GMT
#145228
On April 05 2017 05:16 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Okay, so someone (who actually cares about the process and legality) breakdown what the issue with this Susan Rice thing is:

1) Agencies are investigating people in Trump staff for foreign government connections.
2) Reports are given to current security executive.
3) Security exec. asks for people in the reports to be unmasked.
4) Request is...denied? Or approved.

So it the problem at #1, 2, 3 or 4?

much as i'd like to give one, I do'nt have a fully clear grasp on it myself yet. i haven't yet read a source (that I remember reading) that really goes over everything in a careful thoughtful way.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
biology]major
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2253 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-04 20:48:27
April 04 2017 20:45 GMT
#145229
Lol the farce that this public investigation is, based on corrupted snippets of information. Each side desparately tries to cling to either Susan rice/obama or Russiagate, from the president to the media outlets to the random people on this forum each trying so hard to find evidence to a conclusion that has already been reached in their minds. How about just completely ignoring this shit until the FBI does their job. I can admit I was caught in the fervor of the election and tried to reach conclusions about hrc that I wanted to be true in my mind.

After seeing how polluted our sources of information truly are, and on top of that so utterly incomplete, who in their right minds would do anything else but wait for an investigative agency to answer these questions?
Question.?
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
April 04 2017 20:45 GMT
#145230
This reportedly covers ALL foreign visitors.

Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
April 04 2017 20:50 GMT
#145231
We're in good hands.

Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 04 2017 20:51 GMT
#145232
That won’t damage US business relationships abroad at all. Zero chance of that happening. Or hurt tourism. Burner phones are going to be super popular.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
April 04 2017 20:55 GMT
#145233
On April 05 2017 05:45 biology]major wrote:
Lol the farce that this public investigation is, based on corrupted snippets of information. Each side desparately tries to cling to either Susan rice/obama or Russiagate, from the president to the media outlets to the random people on this forum each trying so hard to find evidence to a conclusion that has already been reached in their minds. How about just completely ignoring this shit until the FBI does their job. I can admit I was caught in the fervor of the election and tried to reach conclusions about hrc that I wanted to be true in my mind.

After seeing how polluted our sources of information truly are, and on top of that so utterly incomplete, who in their right minds would do anything else but wait for an investigative agency to answer these questions?

The problem is that there is too much at stake, politically, to leave it to an investigation. Russia or no Russia, Trump is completely and utterly unpalatable to large swathes of the population. Clinton is too but she's irrelevant now. And there is a group with a vested interest in doing what they can to paralyze Trump. Hence, keeping the Russia train going is a means to an end - with the hopes that a smoking gun that will remove him will finally be found.

The problem, however, is that the other side goes too far with accepting leaks (among other potential wrongdoings), almost as if in revenge for the Russian leaks. That's a slippery slope. I hope it stops soon but it probably won't.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-04 20:59:04
April 04 2017 20:56 GMT
#145234
On April 05 2017 05:45 biology]major wrote:
Lol the farce that this public investigation is, based on corrupted snippets of information. Each side desparately tries to cling to either Susan rice/obama or Russiagate, from the president to the media outlets to the random people on this forum each trying so hard to find evidence to a conclusion that has already been reached in their minds. How about just completely ignoring this shit until the FBI does their job. I can admit I was caught in the fervor of the election and tried to reach conclusions about hrc that I wanted to be true in my mind.

After seeing how polluted our sources of information truly are, and on top of that so utterly incomplete, who in their right minds would do anything else but wait for an investigative agency to answer these questions?

politicians? of course they may not count as being in their right minds
but they have a rational vested interest in pushing stuff now.

more generally, waiting is indeed best in general. though it is tricky for certain cases wherein it's hard to ever definitively prove things, and the damage is high if action isn't taken. sometimes things have to be done based on incomplete information.

it's nice to be one of the people not prejudging things too much and focusing on the evidence :D
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
April 04 2017 20:58 GMT
#145235
On April 05 2017 05:51 Plansix wrote:
That won’t damage US business relationships abroad at all. Zero chance of that happening. Or hurt tourism. Burner phones are going to be super popular.

I would expect it to happen for a couple of days at most before the outrage from businesses gets to be too much.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 04 2017 20:59 GMT
#145236
On April 05 2017 05:58 Nevuk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2017 05:51 Plansix wrote:
That won’t damage US business relationships abroad at all. Zero chance of that happening. Or hurt tourism. Burner phones are going to be super popular.

I would expect it to happen for a couple of days at most before the outrage from businesses gets to be too much.

And I really trust airport security and the TSA not to abuse this new found power to go through peoples phones.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
April 04 2017 21:04 GMT
#145237
Another factor about the investigation. I linked this article before - a Russian opposed to Putin talking about how Comey was way off-base with his knowledge about Russia - which leads me to believe that the investigation will not go well. The FBI isn't an organization that is going to recommend prosecution or impeachment without proof - but if Comey's and Rogers' commentary are a fair indication of their understanding of Russia, they are going to run into a lot of false starts. Trump deals that are purely business with people who are supposedly oligarchs "working for Putin" who are nothing of the sort, who actually just had business deals there. The investigation could take way too long to yield anything, until the point becomes moot. That may or may not be support for extra-judicial investigation but keep it in mind.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 04 2017 21:11 GMT
#145238
People are putting to much weight into Trump working with Putin. It isn’t anything that colorful. It is something far more banal.

A bunch of people who worked with Trump took money from Russia to do various questionable things because they never really felt like Trump would win. People like Flynn, who got fired for being bad at their job in the government, felt like sticking to them one last time and making some extra cash.

Its just greed and not really giving a shit about your country. That is it. Just like most spy stories, its just people being stupid and having access to things letting them extra stupid.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
April 04 2017 21:12 GMT
#145239
On April 05 2017 05:45 biology]major wrote:
Lol the farce that this public investigation is, based on corrupted snippets of information. Each side desparately tries to cling to either Susan rice/obama or Russiagate, from the president to the media outlets to the random people on this forum each trying so hard to find evidence to a conclusion that has already been reached in their minds. How about just completely ignoring this shit until the FBI does their job. I can admit I was caught in the fervor of the election and tried to reach conclusions about hrc that I wanted to be true in my mind.

After seeing how polluted our sources of information truly are, and on top of that so utterly incomplete, who in their right minds would do anything else but wait for an investigative agency to answer these questions?

I agree with Russiagate being something where we just have to wait for the FBI to do whatever it's going to do (which is why I've been largely silent on the issue). The Susan Rice thing is a totally different animal. It's very clear now that she unmasked Trump administration personnel in NSA-collected communications. By necessity, it is also clear that in doing so, she circulated some of this information around other agencies, which has allowed for all of the leaks to happen. Worst of all, it looks like this was done for political reasons as opposed to legitimate intelligence reasons. Regardless of whether what she did is technically legal, the idea that Rice and other Obama administration officials -- or any administration for that matter -- can use the American surveillance apparatus for political purposes should be worrying to everyone.

And the optics of Rice's impropriety look terrible. She's already contradicted her statements from last month where she said that she had no idea what Nunes was talking about when he first talked about the unmasking issue. It's her fucking name that's in the logbook of who did it. The only way that she's going to be vindicated is if evidence is unearthed that Trump and his people were engaged in some illegal activity that warranted the unmasking.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
April 04 2017 21:17 GMT
#145240
I wish there were fewer things happening in politics these days which didn't have terrible optics. there's far too many such things atm.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
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