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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
Netherlands30548 Posts
March 04 2017 16:48 GMT
#140801
It's really nothing like Nixon at all when they asked a judge for approval.
Neosteel Enthusiast
Tien
Profile Joined January 2003
Russian Federation4447 Posts
March 04 2017 16:50 GMT
#140802
Ben Rhodes, Obama's #2, on his twitter lashes out at Trump but doesn't out right deny the existence of a wire tap operation.

Very interesting.
We decide our own destiny
Tien
Profile Joined January 2003
Russian Federation4447 Posts
March 04 2017 16:53 GMT
#140803
On March 05 2017 01:48 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
It's really nothing like Nixon at all when they asked a judge for approval.


Spying and wiretapping on presidential candidate opponents is okay now?

The entire Russian Bank -> Trump server story ended up being bogus.

Now we understand the full force and danger of the NSA / FBI having powers of spying on its own citizens.
We decide our own destiny
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
March 04 2017 17:03 GMT
#140804
On March 05 2017 01:47 ChristianS wrote:
Jesus Christ guys. I try not to post if I haven't read the discussion up to this point but these days just reading the thread as it's produced is a full time job. It's like LR threads back in the day, or Twitch chat maybe.

Gotta learn to skim discussions that aren't fun.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
pmh
Profile Joined March 2016
1352 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-03-04 17:16:58
March 04 2017 17:15 GMT
#140805
Trump not making 100 days,it does not seem that unlikely anymore. If something will drop then it will be this week I think. Either trump did compromise himself in some way,or the democrats went to far with the wire tapping. No clue where to put my money for now but it should be an interesting week ahead. If nothing comes this week then I think trump is safe. Everything has been pulled to find things,then if one does not find anything then probably it just isn't there.

wegali mentioning cali wanting to pull out,more people are playing with that thought it seems. And to continue on his post:i don't give a rats ass about how America should be run and what americans or anyone for that matter make of my posts,i am just an observer trying to make sense of the situation and trying to see what will come next.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
March 04 2017 17:15 GMT
#140806
On March 05 2017 01:46 Tien wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2017 01:22 Gorsameth wrote:
On March 05 2017 01:07 Tien wrote:
On March 04 2017 22:18 Biff The Understudy wrote:
It's a bit distressing that none of his bullshit seems to have any consequences. I mean it's such a circus at that point that no one even know how to react anymore. The NYT seems to think that the watergate tweets are not worth their time, and haven't covered any it at all yet. They might have a point.

My first reaction would be to say "maybe that's true, has he got proof?" but this kind of line of repsoning implies that facts and speech still matter a little bit.

I still somewhat hope that we, one day, get to know what made him think that Obama spied on him and have substance to discuss and evaluate. But then again, we live in strange times, where the POTUS can throw a very serious accusation on twitter, call his predecessor a sick guy, and probably never back any of it with anything.

Let wait and see.


There was a FISA request back in June by the Obama administration but that was rejected.

There was another FISA request in October, but it narrowed it down to a story about how a Trump server was "communicating" with Russian banks. That was granted.

These two requests were already reported upon before.

That entire Trump server story turned out to be bogus. So a FISA request to wire tap Trump was granted in October. So now the question is, how much wiretapping did Obama do on Trump and with which kinds of methods.


This could end up being a huge Obama scandal. Obama "watergated" Trump to fish as much information as he could, then a few days before the inaugaration Obama expanded deep state powers to transfer information between departments to leak information easier.

This is nefarious.

If nothing was found and he purely did it to fight Trump then yes.

If it ends up that Trump is compromised the story turns around and hes a hero.


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38589427

Show nested quote +
Their first application, in June, was rejected outright by the judge. They returned with a more narrowly drawn order in July and were rejected again. Finally, before a new judge, the order was granted, on 15 October, three weeks before election day.


So Obama did wire tapped Trump, how deep does this go? How long did he do this for?

If Obama used this wiretap to get information and then leak it to the press, that is nefarious and at the level of Nixon. Knowing what we know about the leaks that constantly come out from Ex-Obama officials to the press, there's very little room to doubt what Obama's intentions were.


It doesn't seem like that particular wiretap turned up anything so I don't think there would be anything to leak. The FBI looked into it and turned up nothing.

Bottom line is you're making leaps to get to the conclusion that it's nefarious. If anything, it would be more reasonable to call for an investigation .

If Obamas NSA was for intelligence sharing and is a good thing in general, that seems fine. And if there's real dirt on Trump, I commend anything Obama did.
Blisse
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada3710 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-03-04 17:20:31
March 04 2017 17:17 GMT
#140807
On March 05 2017 01:22 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2017 01:07 Tien wrote:
On March 04 2017 22:18 Biff The Understudy wrote:
It's a bit distressing that none of his bullshit seems to have any consequences. I mean it's such a circus at that point that no one even know how to react anymore. The NYT seems to think that the watergate tweets are not worth their time, and haven't covered any it at all yet. They might have a point.

My first reaction would be to say "maybe that's true, has he got proof?" but this kind of line of repsoning implies that facts and speech still matter a little bit.

I still somewhat hope that we, one day, get to know what made him think that Obama spied on him and have substance to discuss and evaluate. But then again, we live in strange times, where the POTUS can throw a very serious accusation on twitter, call his predecessor a sick guy, and probably never back any of it with anything.

Let wait and see.


There was a FISA request back in June by the Obama administration but that was rejected.

There was another FISA request in October, but it narrowed it down to a story about how a Trump server was "communicating" with Russian banks. That was granted.

These two requests were already reported upon before.

That entire Trump server story turned out to be bogus. So a FISA request to wire tap Trump was granted in October. So now the question is, how much wiretapping did Obama do on Trump and with which kinds of methods.


This could end up being a huge Obama scandal. Obama "watergated" Trump to fish as much information as he could, then a few days before the inaugaration Obama expanded deep state powers to transfer information between departments to leak information easier.

This is nefarious.

If nothing was found and he purely did it to fight Trump then yes.

If it ends up that Trump is compromised the story turns around and hes a hero.


No that's not correct.

If nothing was found then it's fine because they got a warrant to investigate it further, presumably through wiretapping, etc. You really wouldn't be granted a warrant if there wasn't some cause, which seems to have been reasonable.

If something was found then it how the information was obtained will determine how legally actionable the information is.

If it turns out that there's evidence the "wiretapping" exceeded the authority granted by the warrants then the evidence can't really be used and there should be an investigation about the overreach of the investigation with respect to the warrant, and presumably disciplinary action.


It seems right now that Trump was just tweeting a circulating Brietbart article from January which was talking about those wiretapped Trump servers many months ago, where they found a suspicious signal and presumably needed a warrant to investigate further, because you know, that's how the law is supposed to work. There's absolutely no evidence of wrongdoing on either side at this point... so there's really no story here, and it's just Trump tweeting whatever the fuck he believes, riling up the hordes on both sides.

This seems to be a common thing Trump does... sigh. Great fucking political climate.
There is no one like you in the universe.
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
Netherlands30548 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-03-04 17:29:12
March 04 2017 17:24 GMT
#140808
On March 05 2017 01:53 Tien wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2017 01:48 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
It's really nothing like Nixon at all when they asked a judge for approval.


Spying and wiretapping on presidential candidate opponents is okay now?

The entire Russian Bank -> Trump server story ended up being bogus.

Now we understand the full force and danger of the NSA / FBI having powers of spying on its own citizens.

If an intelligence agency gets a court approval for a wiretap to investigate an issue then yes because the judge deemed it a pressing enough issue. That's how the system works everywhere.

There's 0 evidence that Trump or his team were personally wiretapped by Obama in a personal secret operation like watergate, that's just Trump spouting lies like usual. Seriously mentioning stuff like 'this is like Nixon' is so dumb.
Neosteel Enthusiast
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 04 2017 17:44 GMT
#140809
WASHINGTON — Three years ago, President Barack Obama ordered Pentagon officials to step up their cyber and electronic strikes against North Korea’s missile program in hopes of sabotaging test launches in their opening seconds.

Soon a large number of the North’s military rockets began to explode, veer off course, disintegrate in midair and plunge into the sea. Advocates of such efforts say they believe that targeted attacks have given American antimissile defenses a new edge and delayed by several years the day when North Korea will be able to threaten American cities with nuclear weapons launched atop intercontinental ballistic missiles.

But other experts have grown increasingly skeptical of the new approach, arguing that manufacturing errors, disgruntled insiders and sheer incompetence can also send missiles awry. Over the past eight months, they note, the North has managed to successfully launch three medium-range rockets. And Kim Jong-un, the North Korean leader, now claims his country is in “the final stage in preparations” for the inaugural test of his intercontinental missiles — perhaps a bluff, perhaps not.

An examination of the Pentagon’s disruption effort, based on interviews with officials of the Obama and Trump administrations as well as a review of extensive but obscure public records, found that the United States still does not have the ability to effectively counter the North Korean nuclear and missile programs. Those threats are far more resilient than many experts thought, The New York Times’s reporting found, and pose such a danger that Mr. Obama, as he left office, warned President Trump they were likely to be the most urgent problem he would confront.

Mr. Trump has signaled his preference to respond aggressively against the North Korean threat. In a Twitter post after Mr. Kim first issued his warning on New Year’s Day, the president wrote, “It won’t happen!” Yet like Mr. Obama before him, Mr. Trump is quickly discovering that he must choose from highly imperfect options.

He could order the escalation of the Pentagon’s cyber and electronic warfare effort, but that carries no guarantees. He could open negotiations with the North to freeze its nuclear and missile programs, but that would leave a looming threat in place. He could prepare for direct missile strikes on the launch sites, which Mr. Obama also considered, but there is little chance of hitting every target. He could press the Chinese to cut off trade and support, but Beijing has always stopped short of steps that could lead to the regime’s collapse.

In two meetings of Mr. Trump’s national security deputies in the Situation Room, the most recent on Tuesday, all those options were discussed, along with the possibility of reintroducing nuclear weapons to South Korea as a dramatic warning. Administration officials say those issues will soon go to Mr. Trump and his top national security aides.

The decision to intensify the cyber and electronic strikes, in early 2014, came after Mr. Obama concluded that the $300 billion spent since the Eisenhower era on traditional antimissile systems, often compared to hitting “a bullet with a bullet,” had failed the core purpose of protecting the continental United States. Flight tests of interceptors based in Alaska and California had an overall failure rate of 56 percent, under near-perfect conditions. Privately, many experts warned the system would fare worse in real combat.

So the Obama administration searched for a better way to destroy missiles. It reached for techniques the Pentagon had long been experimenting with under the rubric of “left of launch,” because the attacks begin before the missiles ever reach the launchpad, or just as they lift off. For years, the Pentagon’s most senior officers and officials have publicly advocated these kinds of sophisticated attacks in little-noticed testimony to Congress and at defense conferences.

The Times inquiry began last spring as the number of the North’s missile failures soared. The investigation uncovered the military documents praising the new antimissile approach and found some pointing with photos and diagrams to North Korea as one of the most urgent targets.

After discussions with the office of the director of national intelligence last year and in recent days with Mr. Trump’s national security team, The Times agreed to withhold details of those efforts to keep North Korea from learning how to defeat them. Last fall, Mr. Kim was widely reported to have ordered an investigation into whether the United States was sabotaging North Korea’s launches, and over the past week he has executed senior security officials.

The approach taken in targeting the North Korean missiles has distinct echoes of the American- and Israeli-led sabotage of Iran’s nuclear program, the most sophisticated known use of a cyberweapon meant to cripple a nuclear threat. But even that use of the “Stuxnet” worm in Iran quickly ran into limits. It was effective for several years, until the Iranians figured it out and recovered. And Iran posed a relatively easy target: an underground nuclear enrichment plant that could be attacked repeatedly.

In North Korea, the target is much more challenging. Missiles are fired from multiple launch sites around the country and moved about on mobile launchers in an elaborate shell game meant to deceive adversaries. To strike them, timing is critical.

Advocates of the sophisticated effort to remotely manipulate data inside North Korea’s missile systems argue the United States has no real alternative because the effort to stop the North from learning the secrets of making nuclear weapons has already failed. The only hope now is stopping the country from developing an intercontinental missile, and demonstrating that destructive threat to the world.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-03-04 18:06:03
March 04 2017 18:05 GMT
#140810
So I'm going to say I was probably wrong. This Russia matter is probably not going to blow over in response to a new crisis - it's the new persistent most important issue of the new presidency (fairly or not - won't judge the validity of the claims).

I will watch as it all tears the government apart. This is a great trainwreck on a national scale. But at least not on an international scale quite yet.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
goiflin
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada1218 Posts
March 04 2017 18:10 GMT
#140811
On March 05 2017 01:53 Tien wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2017 01:48 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
It's really nothing like Nixon at all when they asked a judge for approval.


Spying and wiretapping on presidential candidate opponents is okay now?

The entire Russian Bank -> Trump server story ended up being bogus.

Now we understand the full force and danger of the NSA / FBI having powers of spying on its own citizens.


Wiretapping and spying on citizens has been okay for quite a while, especially after 9/11 and the patriot act. Better than assassinating political opponents i reckon.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 04 2017 18:34 GMT
#140812
A good number of tweets that make a good point:

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
March 04 2017 18:50 GMT
#140813
It strikes me as rather presumptuous to conclusively declare what wiretaps Trump is referring to without waiting for clarification from his Administration.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 04 2017 18:52 GMT
#140814
One would think he would have declassified the T3/FISA Wiretap order then, instead he is tweeting about a round of Golf he is going on today.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-03-04 18:57:12
March 04 2017 18:56 GMT
#140815
Lol at people freaking out about a judge approved tap that wasn't even ordered by Obama. I suppose deflection is the best we can hope for. Trump's Titanic is sinking and he is trying to show everyone how nice the crown molding is.

The paranoid Nero\Nixon comparisons will become more appropriate every week.

Also @Tien, just lol.
Toadesstern
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Germany16350 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-03-04 18:58:22
March 04 2017 18:57 GMT
#140816
On March 05 2017 03:50 xDaunt wrote:
It strikes me as rather presumptuous to conclusively declare what wiretaps Trump is referring to without waiting for clarification from his Administration.

we both know there's not going to be any clarification from Trump because he knows he has nothing. Noone believes a word he says when he says he might sue Obama for this (or something along those lines) because everyone knows it's just empty words.

In that sense... I think it's fine? Otherwise people are just going to forget about it. That being said IF he does really have something on Obama by all means, bring it out and charge him for whatever it is. I don't think anyone, no matter how far left would be against that.

But Obama (or his spokesperson) at least has denied everything Trump has said so far saying that the President can't do what Trump claims Obama did.
<Elem> >toad in charge of judging lewdness <Elem> how bad can it be <Elem> also wew, that is actually p lewd.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 04 2017 19:04 GMT
#140817
Case in point:

+ Show Spoiler +


"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21667 Posts
March 04 2017 19:07 GMT
#140818
On March 05 2017 03:50 xDaunt wrote:
It strikes me as rather presumptuous to conclusively declare what wiretaps Trump is referring to without waiting for clarification from his Administration.

Because this is the 3? 4? time Trump has tweeted in outrage after watching something on the tv?

"Its terrible what happened last friday in Sweden".
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-03-04 19:26:37
March 04 2017 19:20 GMT
#140819
On March 05 2017 02:03 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2017 01:47 ChristianS wrote:
Jesus Christ guys. I try not to post if I haven't read the discussion up to this point but these days just reading the thread as it's produced is a full time job. It's like LR threads back in the day, or Twitch chat maybe.

Gotta learn to skim discussions that aren't fun.

Generally when things get that bad, I find it's just best to stay away for a few days till the thread cools off.

EDIT: Can we not have both sides going full-on conspiracy theory with "Obama watergated Trump" and "Trump is colluding with the Russians"?

If there's substantive information on either we'll find it out eventually--both sides fearmongering all the time makes this thread really stupid to read.
Moderator
Dan HH
Profile Joined July 2012
Romania9118 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-03-04 19:23:13
March 04 2017 19:22 GMT
#140820
On March 05 2017 04:07 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2017 03:50 xDaunt wrote:
It strikes me as rather presumptuous to conclusively declare what wiretaps Trump is referring to without waiting for clarification from his Administration.

Because this is the 3? 4? time Trump has tweeted in outrage after watching something on the tv?

"Its terrible what happened last friday in Sweden".

It's obviously a coincidence that Breitbart wrote an article about the FISA requests the day before Trump's twitter rant. I'm sure Trump's administration will clarify it any hour now and Obama will go to prison.
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