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On February 10 2017 23:05 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2017 19:37 Kickboxer wrote:The fetus becomes human when it develops a central nervous system. This is about where the "soul" gets in, in my particular metaphysical interpretation  before that I don't see the zygote as anything but a random clump of cells with a plan. Much like cancer. It probably isn't a very convincing explanation but I'm sure doctors are able to provide one rooted in hard science. At any rate, an early-stage embryo is NOT a "human being", especially when compared to actual already-born-and-struggling-about destitute kids to be saved so the entire "save the children" debate is based on bs. for ensoulment, catholic theology insists it at birth, islam and judaism generally agree around 40 days in (some schools argue a little later). honestly, we know a lot from the medical perspective, but with matters of life and death (which was the title of my rather tedious bioethics text) ethics and morality do have to inform a decision. like, we can say when an embryo/ fetus can experience pain, when it has defined limbs, when it can reacts to certain stimuli, but its hard to say when it's a person. it's all too complicated, so i kind of wave my hands in the air and cede that 40 days is when a clump of cells become a person because its feels reasonable and smarter people have come to the conclusion. before then i don't think you really have to weigh an abortion as heavily, but then you gotta start thinking if you're past that.
As a Pastafarian I think that ensoulment happens when his noodliness happens to be in the vicinity to bestow upon the fetus a soul(tm) with his Noodly Appendage. As we cannot be sure when exactly this happens, and we only know it happens before birth, we should use statistics and, assuming a uniform distribution for when his noodliness happens to pass by, the expected time of ensoulment is around 4 1/2 months.
Note that we are not making any assumptions on the movement patterns of the FSM, it may be that in actual fact he is more likely to frequent densely populated areas, so ensoulment happens in the first trimester in big cities, but only just before birth if you happen to live in a little house on the prairie. Further study is required to test this hypothesis.
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regarding abortion,today I read in the papers in the Netherlands that we have 30k abortions a year,on a total of 180k fulfilled pregnancys. I never realized it was this many,if asked for a guess I would say 1/20 maybe even less. But it is 1/7 pregancys that end in abortion here,that is a shocking number to be honest. We must be abortion capital of the world,i don't think any other country comes close. It doesn't seem to be a last resort messure anymore,more a convenience thing.
Am not in favor of this,for me life starts at the moment of conception. I understand that sometimes it is the only way out but it has become a standard procedure now. Making it this easy and common makes people care less I think,which is not a good thing.
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On February 10 2017 23:21 pmh wrote:
regarding abortion,today I read in the papers in the Netherlands that we have 30k abortions a year,on a total of 180k fulfilled pregnancys. I never realized it was this many,if asked for a guess I would say 1/20 maybe even less. But it is 1/7 pregancys that end in abortion here,that is a shocking number to be honest. We must be abortion capital of the world,i don't think any other country comes close. It doesn't seem to be a last resort messure anymore,more a convenience thing.
Huh? What are you talking about?
Abortion rate in NL is one of the lowest in the world, according to the study.
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2017/02/abortions-rise-slightly-but-netherlands-still-one-of-lowest-global-rates/
Source report (in Dutch):
https://www.igz.nl/zoeken/download.aspx?download=Jaarrapportage 2015 van de Wet afbreking zwangerschap.pdf
An abortion rate (induced abortions per 1000 women of childbearing age) of 8.5 is one of the lowest in the world.
Unfortunately I cannot find global statistics on abortions as a percentage of pregnancies, which seems a more useful metric.
E: not sure on the source of this list, but I found the abortions as a % of pregnancies for 2011: https://fellowshipoftheminds.com/2011/11/01/abortion-rates-for-101-countries/
The data seems rather suspect for quite a lot of countries, though, and they're simply placing data from different years and collection methods together in a table. Still seems valid as a starting point.
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On February 10 2017 04:37 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2017 04:19 TheYango wrote:On February 10 2017 04:08 biology]major wrote:gh I answered last page. Where does TL stand on abortion? + Show Spoiler +Poll: A woman should be able to abort her pregnancyanytime she chooses for any reason (23) 56% up to first trimester (7) 17% up to second trimester (6) 15% never (except in extreme situations) (4) 10% late term (1) 2% 41 total votes Your vote: A woman should be able to abort her pregnancy (Vote): never (except in extreme situations)
(Vote): up to first trimester
(Vote): up to second trimester
(Vote): late term
(Vote): anytime she chooses for any reason
None of those options represent my opinion. Personally, I don't think a woman should be able to terminate a pregnancy at any time for any reason. At the same time, I don't see progression of the pregnancy is a singularly disqualifying factor. The decision to terminate a pregnancy is something that should be discussed with an experienced medical provider who helps the woman reach a decision that brings together the woman's personal feelings, the safety of herself and her baby, and various ethical issues. I don't think it's useful to legislate a blanket restriction on abortions after a particular point in time. This is where you and I are going to differ on principle toward legislation, because we have a similar disagreement about the Muslim ban. While we might agree on general principles, I don't think it's useful for a legislative body to draw arbitrary lines in the sand when individual circumstances vary so widely. Where there is room for a licensed professional to exercise professional judgment, this should be preferable to the government creating strict rules that have to be followed regardless of the specifics of the particular mother or immigrant in question. First/second trimester (in the case of abortion) or country of origin (in the case of Muslim immigration) are not useful as monolithic cutoff points, even though they may be useful as individual factors in a more complex process of assessment. TL;DR: Philosophically, I'm probably closer to pro-life than pro-choice, but I also don't think it's productive for the government to legislate on it, so from a practical perspective, I'm going to support the pro-choice position because the end result is closer to what I think is right. That's fine. I'm just shocked that the choice "any time for any reason" is in the lead, since it was basically a troll choice I put for fun. In the tug of war between the rights of two different bodies, while the republicans use religion to heavily favor the fetus, quite a few TL posters completely neglect the fetus in favor of the mom. Interesting, good to know I guess, different from what I expected.
Hah, this is amazing. You put in a troll choice, get counter-trolled successfully and are outraged, continuing the discussion for numerous pages. You have to be supremely confident in your own intellect or very naive to not consider that the most outrageous and bizarre choice in such a polarizing poll would win on the internet.
I'm very prejudiced to your kind and this absolutely reinforces them (disclaimer: My cousin who I absolutely love to bits has yuuuuge conservative leanings, so I can't possibly be conservativeist. He's also smarter than I).
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On February 10 2017 23:20 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2017 23:05 ticklishmusic wrote:On February 10 2017 19:37 Kickboxer wrote:The fetus becomes human when it develops a central nervous system. This is about where the "soul" gets in, in my particular metaphysical interpretation before that I don't see the zygote as anything but a random clump of cells with a plan. Much like cancer. It probably isn't a very convincing explanation but I'm sure doctors are able to provide one rooted in hard science. At any rate, an early-stage embryo is NOT a "human being", especially when compared to actual already-born-and-struggling-about destitute kids to be saved so the entire "save the children" debate is based on bs. for ensoulment, catholic theology insists it at birth, islam and judaism generally agree around 40 days in (some schools argue a little later). honestly, we know a lot from the medical perspective, but with matters of life and death (which was the title of my rather tedious bioethics text) ethics and morality do have to inform a decision. like, we can say when an embryo/ fetus can experience pain, when it has defined limbs, when it can reacts to certain stimuli, but its hard to say when it's a person. it's all too complicated, so i kind of wave my hands in the air and cede that 40 days is when a clump of cells become a person because its feels reasonable and smarter people have come to the conclusion. before then i don't think you really have to weigh an abortion as heavily, but then you gotta start thinking if you're past that. As a Pastafarian I think that ensoulment happens when his noodliness happens to be in the vicinity to bestow upon the fetus a soul(tm) with his Noodly Appendage. As we cannot be sure when exactly this happens, and we only know it happens before birth, we should use statistics and, assuming a uniform distribution for when his noodliness happens to pass by, the expected time of ensoulment is around 4 1/2 months. Note that we are not making any assumptions on the movement patterns of the FSM, it may be that in actual fact he is more likely to frequent densely populated areas, so ensoulment happens in the first trimester in big cities, but only just before birth if you happen to live in a little house on the prairie. Further study is required to test this hypothesis.
i should clarify that i mean before 40 days it really doesnt matter, and i would hesitate to even count it as an abortion (given how loaded the term is) because its a bundle of cells so far removed from being a person.
anyways, 4.5 months is about the third trimester which is when a majority of babies (90 or 95%, i forget) can survive outside the womb. FSM jokes aside, that would be more an example of a situation where the definition is informed by medical knowledge alone.
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On February 10 2017 23:21 pmh wrote:
regarding abortion,today I read in the papers in the Netherlands that we have 30k abortions a year,on a total of 180k fulfilled pregnancys. I never realized it was this many,if asked for a guess I would say 1/20 maybe even less. But it is 1/7 pregancys that end in abortion here,that is a shocking number to be honest. We must be abortion capital of the world,i don't think any other country comes close. It doesn't seem to be a last resort messure anymore,more a convenience thing.
Am not in favor of this,for me life starts at the moment of conception. I understand that sometimes it is the only way out but it has become a standard procedure now. Making it this easy and common makes people care less I think,which is not a good thing.
I know several women who had an abortion, and in all cases raising a child at that point would have been more or less a disaster (because they were too young / unstable in life and struggling finantially etc...) and more importantly it was for all of them a mildly to very deeply traumatic experience.
For what i have seen women and couples do not take this decision lightly.
By the way, always wondering conservative who brush away the safety of refugees and don't give a damn about children and families being refused asylum even when they are in extreme danger are so concerned about few weeks old foetuses. Here is an idea: start caring a bit about actual people and maybe your altruistic concerns for 5 centimetres projects of a human being would be taken more seriously.
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yeah, "whoopsie, i got pregnant better get an abortion" is pretty rare. it's kind of like the welfare queen who spends her government check on lobster.
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On February 11 2017 00:09 ticklishmusic wrote:
yeah, "whoopsie, i got pregnant better get an abortion" is pretty rare. it's kind of like the welfare queen who spends her government check on lobster.
That's exactly what happens in a lot of the cases
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On February 10 2017 23:05 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2017 19:37 Kickboxer wrote:The fetus becomes human when it develops a central nervous system. This is about where the "soul" gets in, in my particular metaphysical interpretation before that I don't see the zygote as anything but a random clump of cells with a plan. Much like cancer. It probably isn't a very convincing explanation but I'm sure doctors are able to provide one rooted in hard science. At any rate, an early-stage embryo is NOT a "human being", especially when compared to actual already-born-and-struggling-about destitute kids to be saved so the entire "save the children" debate is based on bs. for ensoulment, catholic theology insists it at birth, islam and judaism generally agree around 40 days in (some schools argue a little later). honestly, we know a lot from the medical perspective, but with matters of life and death (which was the title of my rather tedious bioethics text) ethics and morality do have to inform a decision. like, we can say when an embryo/ fetus can experience pain, when it has defined limbs, when it can reacts to certain stimuli, but its hard to say when it's a person. it's all too complicated, so i kind of wave my hands in the air and cede that 40 days is when a clump of cells become a person because its feels reasonable and smarter people have come to the conclusion. before then i don't think you really have to weigh an abortion as heavily, but then you gotta start thinking if you're past that.
One could quite reasonably argue partially based on catholic theology that "ensoulment" doesn't happen until 7 years after birth. Or based on brain science that it doesn't happen until the mid-20 years. Or based on popular culture that it doesn't occur at all if the tissue mass has red hair.
Honestly it probably won't be settled until you can easily take a baby out of a woman and have it spend the rest of the time in an artificial womb. (at which point aborting the pregnancy becomes 100% legal, and killing the embryo 100% a crime.. so both sides are happy)
On February 11 2017 00:09 ticklishmusic wrote:
yeah, "whoopsie, i got pregnant better get an abortion" is pretty rare. it's kind of like the welfare queen who spends her government check on lobster.
Its not usually that lightly, but that is exactly the reason for the majority of abortions. (even if it is a very hard decision..ie loose the "whoopsie")
I got pregnant and don't want a baby/pregnancy because that will put a major strain on my life/baby's life.
There are the eugenics/euthanasia abortions (don't want a baby with down syndrome/boy baby/this persons baby)
and
Medical abortions (the baby is already dead/will likely kill you and we need to get them out)
but those are probably the minority
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On February 11 2017 00:12 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2017 00:09 ticklishmusic wrote:
yeah, "whoopsie, i got pregnant better get an abortion" is pretty rare. it's kind of like the welfare queen who spends her government check on lobster. That's exactly what happens in a lot of the cases
Sources?
But it's interesting: conservative oppose abortion on the image of the sexually depraved liberal woman who irresponsibly has serial abortions because she just doesn't care.
When the image you stick is an 18 years old whose boyfriend is not with anymore and has no mean in any way to raise a child, or a mother of 5 on minimal wage whose existing children are already neglected, your vision starts to change.
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On February 11 2017 00:12 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2017 00:09 ticklishmusic wrote:
yeah, "whoopsie, i got pregnant better get an abortion" is pretty rare. it's kind of like the welfare queen who spends her government check on lobster. That's exactly what happens in a lot of the cases
Can you not post in a way that needs second guessing to make sense?
ticklishmusic says it's rare and you say it's exactly what happens often.
Question.?
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Poor people buy coca cola. I fail to see the relation.
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looking at the list, i could say that i eat like people on food stamps (minus soda because i get that for free at work so i refuse to pay for it), or people on food stamps basically eat the same as other americans. 
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On February 11 2017 00:13 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2017 00:12 biology]major wrote:On February 11 2017 00:09 ticklishmusic wrote:
yeah, "whoopsie, i got pregnant better get an abortion" is pretty rare. it's kind of like the welfare queen who spends her government check on lobster. That's exactly what happens in a lot of the cases Sources? But it's interesting: conservative oppose abortion on the image of the sexually depraved liberal womqn who irresponsibly has serial abortions because she just doesn't care. When the image you stick is an 18 years old whose boyfriend is not with anymore and has no mean in any way to raise a child, or a mither of 5 on minimal wage whose exusting children are already neglected, your vision starts to change.
6 weeks rotating through a ob/gyn clinic as a student, it was my experience. I did not once see an abortion case out of medical necessity, it was mostly people who didn't know they were pregnant for a while (usually overweight). It's anecdotal, but I know mishaps aren't a minority case, they are the majority.
Yes I sympathize with the people on this issue, I'm not black/white here, there should be leniency in early trimester.
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On February 11 2017 00:12 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2017 00:09 ticklishmusic wrote:
yeah, "whoopsie, i got pregnant better get an abortion" is pretty rare. it's kind of like the welfare queen who spends her government check on lobster. That's exactly what happens in a lot of the cases
[citation needed]
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Wow Look at the difference in rank in infant formula:
12 for SNAP homes, 80 for non snap homes.
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On February 11 2017 00:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:Poor people buy coca cola. I fail to see the relation.
The relation is that the money is being spent on soda and those other products, rather than welfare recipients regularly eating lavish lobster meals. It's rare, as ticklish said.
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EPT
