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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
biology]major
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2253 Posts
February 05 2017 15:17 GMT
#135501
On February 06 2017 00:06 farvacola wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2017 23:51 biology]major wrote:
Is that what dems mean when they keep saying "immigration reform" as a nebulous term that no one understands? To ignore our immigration process and it's weaknesses and to help other countries become great again so they don't even want to come to thtenUSA? Genius!

Obama was Deporter in Chief, so try harder, genius.


I'm glad he was, but I think we should really focus more on the peso. Once it's value gets high enough no one will want to come to the USA. In fact I think people might actually start immigrating to Mexico illegally!
Question.?
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
Netherlands30548 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-02-05 15:19:23
February 05 2017 15:19 GMT
#135502
On February 06 2017 00:17 biology]major wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 06 2017 00:06 farvacola wrote:
On February 05 2017 23:51 biology]major wrote:
Is that what dems mean when they keep saying "immigration reform" as a nebulous term that no one understands? To ignore our immigration process and it's weaknesses and to help other countries become great again so they don't even want to come to thtenUSA? Genius!

Obama was Deporter in Chief, so try harder, genius.


I'm glad he was, but I think we should really focus more on the peso. Once it's value gets high enough no one will want to come to the USA. In fact I think people might actually start immigrating to Mexico illegally!

haha when Trump finally finishes the wall it will be Americans climbing over it due to him having fucked up the dollar
Neosteel Enthusiast
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18870 Posts
February 05 2017 15:20 GMT
#135503
You can laugh stupidly at the facts of economic mutuality all you want, doing so won't change the fact that blunt force policy solutions leave the real questions unanswered.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
February 05 2017 15:22 GMT
#135504
On February 06 2017 00:06 farvacola wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2017 23:51 biology]major wrote:
Is that what dems mean when they keep saying "immigration reform" as a nebulous term that no one understands? To ignore our immigration process and it's weaknesses and to help other countries become great again so they don't even want to come to thtenUSA? Genius!

Obama was Deporter in Chief, so try harder, genius.

You're referring to a tongue in cheek ploy for when the definition of deportations was changed to include people stopped and turned away while crossing the border. LA Times, among others picked up on it, and it's now more of a measure for how much you believe fake news. It's a step down from Bush, and Clinton owns the record for single-year.

But it's true that supporting immigration reform is mostly a sound bite for Democrats, just as more Republicans than not only pay lip service to the idea (see: Republican majorities in Bush years and nothing got done, not even a wall despite a bill passed authorizing the construction of a wall).
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18870 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-02-05 15:26:15
February 05 2017 15:25 GMT
#135505
The specifics surrounding Obama's deportation policy are indeed not as clear as the term I used would indicate, the point was that Democrats do not "ignore" the border any more than Republicans do. That said, indicating that you've been waiting on a wall all these years says more than the single invocation of a loaded term ever will.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-02-05 15:27:08
February 05 2017 15:26 GMT
#135506
For reference, most metrics that I've seen have shown incoming illegal immigration from Mexico reaching a nadir in the past several years (here's one example from Pew). I think there's also some research showing that border-hopping is less and less of a problem compared to folks overstaying work visas.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14220 Posts
February 05 2017 15:36 GMT
#135507
On February 05 2017 23:51 biology]major wrote:
Is that what dems mean when they keep saying "immigration reform" as a nebulous term that no one understands? To ignore our immigration process and it's weaknesses and to help other countries become great again so they don't even want to come to thtenUSA? Genius!

You can't seriously mean this. Immigration reform means to reform the immigration process. Its the only thing government an reform in regards to immigration. You reference it as something bad that the government should reform and list reasons why it should be reformed in the very next sentence.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
biology]major
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2253 Posts
February 05 2017 15:50 GMT
#135508
On February 06 2017 00:36 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2017 23:51 biology]major wrote:
Is that what dems mean when they keep saying "immigration reform" as a nebulous term that no one understands? To ignore our immigration process and it's weaknesses and to help other countries become great again so they don't even want to come to thtenUSA? Genius!

You can't seriously mean this. Immigration reform means to reform the immigration process. Its the only thing government an reform in regards to immigration. You reference it as something bad that the government should reform and list reasons why it should be reformed in the very next sentence.


"immigration reform means to reform the immigration process". Thanks for that clarification. I was referring to my distaste of policitians using that term whenever any question about immigration came up. No specifics, no solutions, just "comprehensive immigration reform". So I interpret it as lip service, that was one of the best things about Trump's run. He never said it, and just talked about a wall instead. Atleast a solution was proposed.
Question.?
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-02-05 15:53:29
February 05 2017 15:52 GMT
#135509
In leftist lingo, "comprehensive immigration reform" is a term that is co-opted to mean "change the immigration laws to make it easier to take more immigrants."

We can all probably agree that the immigration system needs some reform, but that term means that any talk of "immigration reform" implies "more immigrants."
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28917 Posts
February 05 2017 15:57 GMT
#135510
isn't it to make it easier to take more legal immigrants? I thought this distinction was extremely important in non-leftist lingo.
Moderator
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18870 Posts
February 05 2017 15:58 GMT
#135511
Illegal immigration directly subverts the authority and influence of labor unions, which is why you have such high concentrations of illegal immigrants in right-to-work states
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
warding
Profile Joined August 2005
Portugal2397 Posts
February 05 2017 16:13 GMT
#135512
On February 05 2017 23:49 a_flayer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2017 22:01 warding wrote:
On February 05 2017 21:52 Nebuchad wrote:
On February 05 2017 20:15 TheYango wrote:
On February 05 2017 17:25 Acrofales wrote:
On February 05 2017 07:36 xDaunt wrote:
This idea that there's no valid security national security interest in tightening immigration controls is just ludicrous given that there have been multiple intelligence reports warning of terrorists infiltrating refugee populations to gain entrance to western nations.

If that were the problem, put a stop on the refugee program. But that's not what happened.

If that were the real justification, t's like having a mosquito problem in your home, and instead of shutting the windows, you nuke your home. Mosquitos are dead, right?

There's also very few people on the left who wouldn't agree that some level of tightened control over immigration would make America safer.


Well it's a captain obvious that the tighter you have control over something the safer you are, but that's not really indicative that there is a middle ground to be found between the two positions. My guess is most people on the left think the control that the US has now is already sufficient.

It's not that obvious. By discriminating against Muslims and acting like the USA is at war with all of Islam, you run the risk of stemming more radicalisation. It's like the use of force by the police; it does not necessarily lead to more secure communities.

Before anyone starts throwing any adjectives, Id describe myself as a right of center atheist. Thanks.


Regarding increasing radicalization: exactly the same can be said for doing things such as invading Iraq, droning & terrorizing families in Afghanistan, funding the "moderate" opposition in Syria, as well as NSA-hacking that resulted in a complete internet blackout (which was likely blamed on Assad by that same opposition), weaponizing extremist regimes that bomb the entire infrastructure of neighbouring countries (like in Yemen) whilst fuelling Wahhabi propaganda in other regions at the same time, or doing things such as pretending to vaccinate people as a cover-up to find terrorists (which fuels & legitimises the already radical conspiracy theories that float around in the Middle East).

However, arguments such as "run[ning] the risk of stemming more radicalisation" didn't stop previous administrations from doing exactly these things with generally widespread support from both sides of the political aisle. To pretend that the so-called Muslim ban (which very clearly and obviously targets countries with ISIS presence, and has nothing to do with Trump's financial interests, or even Muslims in general) is somehow 'too much' or 'not in line with American values' is a fucking joke. The United States has been a joke for a long time, and it's extremist punchline after a several decades long build-up is Trump.

Many of the things you mention may have increased radicalization but many were tough decisions. However, these are not all the same. I don't see any clear-cut, easy options for dealing with Syria, Yemen, the Taliban in Afghanistan. There were definitely pro's and con's and surely the impact on the radicalisation of communities in those countries and in the Muslim world were taken into account - maybe not in Iraq, nobody is defending the GWB legacy on this.

This is completely different. There simply is no 'pro' in this decision other than a cynical appeal to its alt-right base. No security is being increased, no immigration or refugee vetting system seems to be enhanced. Not only that, it looks like the Steve Bannon worldview is to accept that there is a war against Islam and this ban works as a statement - the US showing its teeth against Muslims, asserting itself as a christian nation of the often referred bs judeo-christian tradition. Yes, this is too much and it makes no sense.
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-02-05 16:31:44
February 05 2017 16:31 GMT
#135513
Honestly, I'm not sure for how many people this ban would be the straw that broke the camel's back when it comes to radicalizing. It kind of pales in comparison to being told the U.S.'s sanctions killed 600,000 Iraqi children in the 90s. That kind of stain never washes out, no matter how often you try to "debunk" it.

I'd view it more as hurting the credibility of the (often weak) people in power that are trying to circumvent or handicap the extremists and work with the west, generally to line their own pockets. I mean, you can rail about the Iranian theocracy all you want, but they were the sane people (and fortunately the ones with real power) when Ahmadinejad was ranting about the great evils of the West and wiping Israel off the map.
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28917 Posts
February 05 2017 16:39 GMT
#135514
radicalization is perishable. I think it's extremely unlikely that a current-day muslim is gonna become radicalized because of US sanctions against Iraq in the 90s. I can agree that a lot of current radical muslims have been influenced by that, but I don't think it contributes much to further radicalization. For that, you have Israel as a constant (with radicalization-peaks whenever they engage in one of their retaliate 100fold missions), and alienation as somewhat of a constant also - but it's very, very possible to argue that a muslim ban is the type of thing that would contribute towards increased alienation.
Moderator
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
February 05 2017 16:48 GMT
#135515
On February 06 2017 00:50 biology]major wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 06 2017 00:36 Sermokala wrote:
On February 05 2017 23:51 biology]major wrote:
Is that what dems mean when they keep saying "immigration reform" as a nebulous term that no one understands? To ignore our immigration process and it's weaknesses and to help other countries become great again so they don't even want to come to thtenUSA? Genius!

You can't seriously mean this. Immigration reform means to reform the immigration process. Its the only thing government an reform in regards to immigration. You reference it as something bad that the government should reform and list reasons why it should be reformed in the very next sentence.


"immigration reform means to reform the immigration process". Thanks for that clarification. I was referring to my distaste of policitians using that term whenever any question about immigration came up. No specifics, no solutions, just "comprehensive immigration reform". So I interpret it as lip service, that was one of the best things about Trump's run. He never said it, and just talked about a wall instead. Atleast a solution was proposed.


It's quite possible that there are specifics and solutions presented, you just haven't heard about them.
just like the last election, policy details are actually not covered in the news that much because they're very boring and few people read them, but they're generally available online if you look around a bit.

that said they certainly use the soundbite a lot. it's also often the case that everyone agrees there are problems in the system and want to change it, but they can't agree on which changes to make. then there's also the inaction bias that occurs in democracy and bureaucracies.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12610 Posts
February 05 2017 17:15 GMT
#135516
On February 06 2017 00:01 biology]major wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2017 14:57 Nebuchad wrote:
On February 05 2017 09:34 biology]major wrote:
On February 05 2017 09:01 zlefin wrote:
It is indeed interesting how it's not so much the refugees/immigrants themselves that are terrorists, but the 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants that do so.
that also presents an interesting ethical quandary: what to do if the threat comes not from the immigrants themselves, who behave fine, and not from some sort of improper parenting, but simply from the difficulties of fitting in for the children of the immigrants through societal processes not well understood?


This is a great point and I think an underestimated concern with refugee immigration, or immigration in general from these unstable countries. Given that refugees get to rely on the state, and also have a hard time with finding employment, the children aren't going to be in great conditions and are more prone to radicalization.


Do you think having policies that declare them the enemy for no good reason will impact the chances of, let's say, children of iranian americans to radicalize in the future?


Im sure stories of their family members being killed in random drone strikes or propaganda from ISIS don't really do it for them. They really need us to declare radical Islam an enemy before they all of a sudden decide to join ISIS.


Be serious please. I don't even know where to begin with this answer, either with the part where you're saying it's okay to double down on treating them like shit because we already do, or with the part where "stopping immigration from their country of origin" became "declaring radical islam an enemy".
No will to live, no wish to die
pmh
Profile Joined March 2016
1416 Posts
February 05 2017 17:16 GMT
#135517
On February 06 2017 00:19 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 06 2017 00:17 biology]major wrote:
On February 06 2017 00:06 farvacola wrote:
On February 05 2017 23:51 biology]major wrote:
Is that what dems mean when they keep saying "immigration reform" as a nebulous term that no one understands? To ignore our immigration process and it's weaknesses and to help other countries become great again so they don't even want to come to thtenUSA? Genius!

Obama was Deporter in Chief, so try harder, genius.


I'm glad he was, but I think we should really focus more on the peso. Once it's value gets high enough no one will want to come to the USA. In fact I think people might actually start immigrating to Mexico illegally!

haha when Trump finally finishes the wall it will be Americans climbing over it due to him having fucked up the dollar



Nah not really. Obama fucked up the dollar as well by letting the fed print 3000+ billion and nothing did happen. Dollar went from parity to 1.40 for the euro and now its back again as Europe also felt the need to print 1000+ billion to bail out all the bond holders at negative interest.
pmh
Profile Joined March 2016
1416 Posts
February 05 2017 17:17 GMT
#135518
Is trump going to make 100 days in office? I am beginning to doubt.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
February 05 2017 17:21 GMT
#135519
Donald Trump’s defense of Vladimir Putin’s homicidal history isn’t sitting well with fellow Republicans.

Three Republican senators and several other conservatives were quick to condemn or distance themselves from the president seeming to put Putin on equal standing with the United States when it comes to killing.

In a pre-taped Fox interview partially released on Saturday and set to air in full during the Super Bowl pre-game show, Bill O’Reilly pressed Trump on his warm relationship with Putin.

Trump stressed that stronger U.S.- Russia ties could help defeat the Islamic State.

But “Putin’s a killer,” O’Reilly said.

“You got a lot of killers,” Trump shot back. “What, you think our country’s so innocent?”

Trump’s repeated expressions of admiration for Putin was already a sore spot for Republicans who consider the Russian leader a threat to the post-WWII global order. The president's latest statement has put the breach right back in the spotlight.

“He’s a thug,” Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) said of Putin on CNN’s “State of the Union.” “The Russians annexed Crimea, invaded Ukraine and messed around in our elections. No, I don’t think there’s any equivalency between the way the Russians conduct themselves and the way the United States does.”

When host Jake Tapper responded that Republicans would have been in revolt if Barack Obama said something similar, McConnell, who’s made a point of not harshly criticizing Trump, made clear his opinion on the matter.

“I’m not going to critique the president’s every utterance," the Senate leader said. "But I do think America is exceptional, America is different. We don’t operate in any way the way the Russians do. I think there’s a clear distinction here that all Americans understand and I would not have characterized it that way.”

Was McConnell confident that Trump understood? Tapper asked. “I obviously don’t see this issue the same way he does,” McConnell replied.

The Republican leader wasn’t alone in his discomfort.

“When has a Democratic political activists been poisoned by the GOP, or vice versa? We are not the same as #Putin,” Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.), a Russia hawk, tweeted Sunday.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
February 05 2017 17:22 GMT
#135520
Bernie calls Trump a fraud on CNN. Well done
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