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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-29 15:37:49
January 29 2017 15:36 GMT
#133761
On January 29 2017 23:32 NukeD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2017 23:20 Kamisamanachi wrote:
On January 29 2017 16:18 LegalLord wrote:
On January 29 2017 16:16 Kamisamanachi wrote:
Not regular poster here, but i just want to ask one thing. how the hell did countries like pakistan and especially, saudi arabia escaped out of his order?

i mean, Pakistan has been proven factory for terrorists since many years and is also a place where gangsters like Dawood Ibrahim and terrorists like osama bin laden took refuge under government. what stops trump from issuing orders against them if he wants to sign order for countries? , some of which are very less dangerous places than the ones i mentioned.

It's a well-known fact that the most prominent US "partners" in the regions are among the most important state sponsors of terrorism.


so it's a buddy buddy system after all, isn't it? "i get oil from saudi and i fund terrorism in pakistan through weapons i provide, so those states should be avoided"



Trump got money from Saudi Arabia?


They're probably talking about the U.S. as a whole there.

But, as for Trump, since as far as I can tell absolutely no real divestment in his companies has occurred and there are Trump hotels in the country, he does generate profit from policies favorable to Saudi Arabia and lose money for implementing policies unfavorable to the country.

And he clearly places some value on profit, or else he would have divested in the first place (since the only downside of that is loss of money).
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
January 29 2017 15:41 GMT
#133762
Lol is this guy still getting hacked?

Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
January 29 2017 15:57 GMT
#133763
The White House recasted the National Security Council to put Bannon, Flynn, Kushner and Preibus in and diminish other roles including Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Seems pretty clear that Trump's inner circle of loyalists are elbowing themselves into power and elbowing others out. These people are not qualified
NukeD
Profile Joined October 2010
Croatia1612 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-29 16:09:41
January 29 2017 15:58 GMT
#133764
Anti Trumpist rejoice! Here is an explanation of the 7 countries ban! It is the same old neocon plan to destabilize the middle east:

sorry for dem one liners
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
January 29 2017 16:04 GMT
#133765
Is it really even necessary to destabilize the Middle East at this point? The region's about as stable as one of those dogs that spontaneously passes out.
NukeD
Profile Joined October 2010
Croatia1612 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-29 16:10:40
January 29 2017 16:09 GMT
#133766
On January 30 2017 01:04 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Is it really even necessary to destabilize the Middle East at this point? The region's about as stable as one of those dogs that spontaneously passes out.

Well we dont know what is the ultimate goal of destabilizng it so we dont know if further destabilizing is necessary. That Quatar-Saudi Arabia-Syria-Turkey pipeline seems as plausible goal but i dont know where to fit in the rest of the banned countries.
sorry for dem one liners
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3304 Posts
January 29 2017 16:26 GMT
#133767
Seems like good timing to bring this up. I recently learned about something that happened during the depression:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Repatriation

Mass deportation of Mexican Americans, including American citizens, in response to economic hardship and perceived drains on public resources. Racist? Sure. Illegal and unconstitutional? Absolutely. Small comfort for the people it happened to, though.

Any of the prognosticators in the thread care to estimate the likeliness of something like this happening again in the next four years? Or anybody wanna defend such a policy?
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-29 16:31:29
January 29 2017 16:27 GMT
#133768
On January 30 2017 01:26 ChristianS wrote:
Seems like good timing to bring this up. I recently learned about something that happened during the depression:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Repatriation

Mass deportation of Mexican Americans, including American citizens, in response to economic hardship and perceived drains on public resources. Racist? Sure. Illegal and unconstitutional? Absolutely. Small comfort for the people it happened to, though.

Any of the prognosticators in the thread care to estimate the likeliness of something like this happening again in the next four years? Or anybody wanna defend such a policy?

there's also this related thing a couple decades later:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback
just adding it to the list.
haven't thought throguh the matters enough to give a decent prognostication.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
mustaju
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Estonia4505 Posts
January 29 2017 16:35 GMT
#133769
On January 30 2017 01:09 NukeD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 30 2017 01:04 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Is it really even necessary to destabilize the Middle East at this point? The region's about as stable as one of those dogs that spontaneously passes out.

Well we dont know what is the ultimate goal of destabilizng it so we dont know if further destabilizing is necessary. That Quatar-Saudi Arabia-Syria-Turkey pipeline seems as plausible goal but i dont know where to fit in the rest of the banned countries.

I find that logic rather confusing. How would a construction project that is already a rather tempting target for terrorist attacks, benefit from the entire region being unstable? Especially considering that oil is already less and less relevant with the new forms of energy becoming more commonplace?
WriterBrows somewhat high. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndFysO2JunE
NukeD
Profile Joined October 2010
Croatia1612 Posts
January 29 2017 16:41 GMT
#133770
On January 30 2017 01:35 mustaju wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 30 2017 01:09 NukeD wrote:
On January 30 2017 01:04 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Is it really even necessary to destabilize the Middle East at this point? The region's about as stable as one of those dogs that spontaneously passes out.

Well we dont know what is the ultimate goal of destabilizng it so we dont know if further destabilizing is necessary. That Quatar-Saudi Arabia-Syria-Turkey pipeline seems as plausible goal but i dont know where to fit in the rest of the banned countries.

I find that logic rather confusing. How would a construction project that is already a rather tempting target for terrorist attacks, benefit from the entire region being unstable? Especially considering that oil is already less and less relevant with the new forms of energy becoming more commonplace?

I dont know, really, i have no idea why they would want to destabilize it. It is probably not the reason why but I am clueless as to what the other reason could be so I just posted that one.
sorry for dem one liners
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3304 Posts
January 29 2017 16:53 GMT
#133771
On January 30 2017 01:27 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 30 2017 01:26 ChristianS wrote:
Seems like good timing to bring this up. I recently learned about something that happened during the depression:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Repatriation

Mass deportation of Mexican Americans, including American citizens, in response to economic hardship and perceived drains on public resources. Racist? Sure. Illegal and unconstitutional? Absolutely. Small comfort for the people it happened to, though.

Any of the prognosticators in the thread care to estimate the likeliness of something like this happening again in the next four years? Or anybody wanna defend such a policy?

there's also this related thing a couple decades later:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback
just adding it to the list.
haven't thought throguh the matters enough to give a decent prognostication.

I knew about that one, yeah. Not a lot of good things to say about it, but at the very least I believe it didn't remove any American citizens (not that any government should get a lot of points for *not* deporting their own citizens). The Depression one doesn't even pass that low, low bar.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
xM(Z
Profile Joined November 2006
Romania5299 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-29 16:55:26
January 29 2017 16:53 GMT
#133772
On January 30 2017 01:41 NukeD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 30 2017 01:35 mustaju wrote:
On January 30 2017 01:09 NukeD wrote:
On January 30 2017 01:04 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Is it really even necessary to destabilize the Middle East at this point? The region's about as stable as one of those dogs that spontaneously passes out.

Well we dont know what is the ultimate goal of destabilizng it so we dont know if further destabilizing is necessary. That Quatar-Saudi Arabia-Syria-Turkey pipeline seems as plausible goal but i dont know where to fit in the rest of the banned countries.

I find that logic rather confusing. How would a construction project that is already a rather tempting target for terrorist attacks, benefit from the entire region being unstable? Especially considering that oil is already less and less relevant with the new forms of energy becoming more commonplace?

I dont know, really, i have no idea why they would want to destabilize it. It is probably not the reason why but I am clueless as to what the other reason could be so I just posted that one.
if you go down the zionist rabbit hole you will find some answers. things starting with Yinon Plan then later A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm .
there are scattered articles about things here and there, like: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/sep/03/worlddispatch.iraq
The paper set out a plan by which Israel would "shape its strategic environment", beginning with the removal of Saddam Hussein and the installation of a Hashemite monarchy in Baghdad.

With Saddam out of the way and Iraq thus brought under Jordanian Hashemite influence, Jordan and Turkey would form an axis along with Israel to weaken and "roll back" Syria. Jordan, it suggested, could also sort out Lebanon by "weaning" the Shia Muslim population away from Syria and Iran, and re-establishing their former ties with the Shia in the new Hashemite kingdom of Iraq. "Israel will not only contain its foes; it will transcend them", the paper concluded.

To succeed, the paper stressed, Israel would have to win broad American support for these new policies - and it advised Mr Netanyahu to formulate them "in language familiar to the Americans by tapping into themes of American administrations during the cold war which apply well to Israel".
it talks about dividing Syria and Iraq then later Sudan and Somalia. the idea is to break those countries diminishing their influence within the arab world.

basically, the countries on the ban list will forever(or until they split up) be at war.
And my fury stands ready. I bring all your plans to nought. My bleak heart beats steady. 'Tis you whom I have sought.
NukeD
Profile Joined October 2010
Croatia1612 Posts
January 29 2017 17:00 GMT
#133773
On January 30 2017 01:53 xM(Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 30 2017 01:41 NukeD wrote:
On January 30 2017 01:35 mustaju wrote:
On January 30 2017 01:09 NukeD wrote:
On January 30 2017 01:04 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Is it really even necessary to destabilize the Middle East at this point? The region's about as stable as one of those dogs that spontaneously passes out.

Well we dont know what is the ultimate goal of destabilizng it so we dont know if further destabilizing is necessary. That Quatar-Saudi Arabia-Syria-Turkey pipeline seems as plausible goal but i dont know where to fit in the rest of the banned countries.

I find that logic rather confusing. How would a construction project that is already a rather tempting target for terrorist attacks, benefit from the entire region being unstable? Especially considering that oil is already less and less relevant with the new forms of energy becoming more commonplace?

I dont know, really, i have no idea why they would want to destabilize it. It is probably not the reason why but I am clueless as to what the other reason could be so I just posted that one.
if you go down the zionist rabbit hole you will find some answers. things starting with Yinon Plan then later A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm .
there are scattered articles about things here and there, like: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/sep/03/worlddispatch.iraq
Show nested quote +
The paper set out a plan by which Israel would "shape its strategic environment", beginning with the removal of Saddam Hussein and the installation of a Hashemite monarchy in Baghdad.

With Saddam out of the way and Iraq thus brought under Jordanian Hashemite influence, Jordan and Turkey would form an axis along with Israel to weaken and "roll back" Syria. Jordan, it suggested, could also sort out Lebanon by "weaning" the Shia Muslim population away from Syria and Iran, and re-establishing their former ties with the Shia in the new Hashemite kingdom of Iraq. "Israel will not only contain its foes; it will transcend them", the paper concluded.

To succeed, the paper stressed, Israel would have to win broad American support for these new policies - and it advised Mr Netanyahu to formulate them "in language familiar to the Americans by tapping into themes of American administrations during the cold war which apply well to Israel".
it talks about dividing Syria and Iraq then later Sudan and Somalia. the idea is to break those countries diminishing their influence within the arab world.

basically, the countries on the ban list will forever(or until they split up) be at war.

Yes Israel did come to my mind but this isnt the forum for it. I dont know what to think of it. It also doesn't explain Russia's involvement in the middle east.
sorry for dem one liners
xM(Z
Profile Joined November 2006
Romania5299 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-29 17:14:15
January 29 2017 17:09 GMT
#133774
On January 30 2017 02:00 NukeD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 30 2017 01:53 xM(Z wrote:
On January 30 2017 01:41 NukeD wrote:
On January 30 2017 01:35 mustaju wrote:
On January 30 2017 01:09 NukeD wrote:
On January 30 2017 01:04 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Is it really even necessary to destabilize the Middle East at this point? The region's about as stable as one of those dogs that spontaneously passes out.

Well we dont know what is the ultimate goal of destabilizng it so we dont know if further destabilizing is necessary. That Quatar-Saudi Arabia-Syria-Turkey pipeline seems as plausible goal but i dont know where to fit in the rest of the banned countries.

I find that logic rather confusing. How would a construction project that is already a rather tempting target for terrorist attacks, benefit from the entire region being unstable? Especially considering that oil is already less and less relevant with the new forms of energy becoming more commonplace?

I dont know, really, i have no idea why they would want to destabilize it. It is probably not the reason why but I am clueless as to what the other reason could be so I just posted that one.
if you go down the zionist rabbit hole you will find some answers. things starting with Yinon Plan then later A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm .
there are scattered articles about things here and there, like: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/sep/03/worlddispatch.iraq
The paper set out a plan by which Israel would "shape its strategic environment", beginning with the removal of Saddam Hussein and the installation of a Hashemite monarchy in Baghdad.

With Saddam out of the way and Iraq thus brought under Jordanian Hashemite influence, Jordan and Turkey would form an axis along with Israel to weaken and "roll back" Syria. Jordan, it suggested, could also sort out Lebanon by "weaning" the Shia Muslim population away from Syria and Iran, and re-establishing their former ties with the Shia in the new Hashemite kingdom of Iraq. "Israel will not only contain its foes; it will transcend them", the paper concluded.

To succeed, the paper stressed, Israel would have to win broad American support for these new policies - and it advised Mr Netanyahu to formulate them "in language familiar to the Americans by tapping into themes of American administrations during the cold war which apply well to Israel".
it talks about dividing Syria and Iraq then later Sudan and Somalia. the idea is to break those countries diminishing their influence within the arab world.

basically, the countries on the ban list will forever(or until they split up) be at war.

Yes Israel did come to my mind but this isnt the forum for it. I dont know what to think of it. It also doesn't explain Russia's involvement in the middle east.
things are written in black and white and they have authors; there are no theories or opinions.

thing is as with all plans, one is to come up with it and another is to implement it. Russia probably ruined some part of those plans but Israel does bomb inside Syria and while Russia can take down its aircraft/bombers with the s-300/400 systems, it doesn't do so. i've read things on Putin having respect for Israelis but honestly and obviously i don't know what's going on exactly.

Edit: from the same article(theguardian)
At first glance, there's not much to distinguish the 1996 "Clean Break" paper from the outpourings of other right-wing and ultra-Zionist thinktanks ... except for the names of its authors.

The leader of the "prominent opinion makers" who wrote it was Richard Perle - now chairman of the Defence Policy Board at the Pentagon.

Also among the eight-person team was Douglas Feith, a neo-conservative lawyer, who now holds one of the top four posts at the Pentagon as under-secretary of policy.

Mr Feith has objected to most of the peace deals made by Israel over the years, and views the Middle East in the same good-versus-evil terms that he previously viewed the cold war. He regarded the Oslo peace process as nothing more than a unilateral withdrawal which "raises life-and-death issues for the Jewish state".

Two other opinion-makers in the team were David Wurmser and his wife, Meyrav (see US thinktanks give lessons in foreign policy, August 19). Mrs Wurmser was co-founder of Memri, a Washington-based charity that distributes articles translated from Arabic newspapers portraying Arabs in a bad light. After working with Mr Perle at the American Enterprise Institute, David Wurmser is now at the State Department, as a special assistant to John Bolton, the under-secretary for arms control and international security.

A fifth member of the team was James Colbert, of the Washington-based Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (Jinsa) - a bastion of neo-conservative hawkery whose advisory board was previously graced by Dick Cheney (now US vice-president), John Bolton and Douglas Feith.
it was written in 2002 so while things were like that then, maybe someone from US could tell us now about those names; where are they in Trump administration? or if any of them are still involved in US politics/military.
And my fury stands ready. I bring all your plans to nought. My bleak heart beats steady. 'Tis you whom I have sought.
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States6303 Posts
January 29 2017 17:22 GMT
#133775
On January 29 2017 22:12 Kipsate wrote:
Can someone explain to me what the commonalities between the banned countries are? They look like failed majority muslim states on paper(with the exception of EVIL IRAN WOOOOH) but Lebanon isn't on there.

They are from a previous DHS list of countries of concern:

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2016/02/18/dhs-announces-further-travel-restrictions-visa-waiver-program
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
Blisse
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada3710 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-29 17:42:41
January 29 2017 17:32 GMT
#133776
Just wanted to shortform restate the post I made earlier and the timeline because context is important. I dislike how people will slam "mainstream news" for not expanding on where the provisions come from, while the other news outlets conveniently ignore the other context as well.



Paris attacks occur
People more scared of refugees.
Senate tries to pass bills restricting refugees to US.
Obama promises to veto any refugee bills.
Obama suggests compromise with the Visa Waiver Program
Republican Senators draft initial copy of Visa Waiver Program Improvement and Terrorist Travel Prevention Act
Republican and Democrats overwhelmingly in support in House
Republicans add the visa waiver changes to the 2,200 page $1.1 trillion spending package, among other things.
Republicans push the Omnibus bill for signing the day before Christmas vacation, ensuring lawmakers can't sufficiently analyze its contents
Republicans threaten government shutdown again if not signed by the end of day.
Obama passes the Omnibus bill, no refugee changes included in the bill.
Trump uses the provisions in the Omnibus bill to expand the suspension of travel in those countries to all non US-citizens.



A bunch of organizations were slamming Obama and the government and Republicans for discriminating against those countries without reason back when it was proposed.


On January 29 2017 22:43 Scarecrow wrote:
The timing of the 'muslim ban' and subsequent justified outrage seems like a smokescreen for the real news.

Stephen "Let's form a church militant"/"Destroy the State" Bannon now has a permanent spot on the NSC. Of course there'll be Putin's buddy Tillerson as SoS but notably Trump's decided that Tillerson's more experienced deputy is also no longer necessary for meetings. All of this whilst the head of US intelligence is somehow no longer worthy of an automatic invite, or the head of the military? The intelligence community need to get their act together and shut this shit down before it gets more dangerous. A guy like Bannon should NEVER have this much access/power.


I think this is what's going on since this seems to be Trump's general strategy, say so much shit that some other shit gets through without as many people being aware.
There is no one like you in the universe.
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-29 17:36:40
January 29 2017 17:34 GMT
#133777
On January 29 2017 22:43 Scarecrow wrote:
The timing of the 'muslim ban' and subsequent justified outrage seems like a smokescreen for the real news.

Stephen "Let's form a church militant"/"Destroy the State" Bannon now has a permanent spot on the NSC. Of course there'll be Putin's buddy Tillerson as SoS but notably Trump's decided that Tillerson's more experienced deputy is also no longer necessary for meetings. All of this whilst the head of US intelligence is somehow no longer worthy of an automatic invite, or the head of the military? The intelligence community need to get their act together and shut this shit down before it gets more dangerous. A guy like Bannon should NEVER have this much access/power.


Effectively Trump has removed most of the people who know what they're talking about from the room and filled it with political hacks which results in an echo chamber.

This pretty much guarantees that we will (continue) to see incompetent decisions on the National Security front. This is the only real possible outcome because these people are aggressively unqualified or crazy.Mattis is our only hope for sanity. Guy has it tough.

You have to wonder how Trump will make it through four years. He barely made it through one week and he already has a medium level fuckup and the vitriol is already this high. As he continues to fuckup and continue to get more angry that people are noticing his fuckups it will get a lot worse.
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3304 Posts
January 29 2017 17:38 GMT
#133778
Priebus says it's not a fuckup and they're not apologizing for anything, but also says it won't affect green card holders going forward.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
Saryph
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1955 Posts
January 29 2017 17:45 GMT
#133779
So on Fox News this morning Giuliani said Trump came to him asking how to legally ban Muslims from the country. Might be the answer to some of the questions earlier in this thread. Also found this:

Blisse
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada3710 Posts
January 29 2017 17:45 GMT
#133780
On January 30 2017 02:38 ChristianS wrote:
Priebus says it's not a fuckup and they're not apologizing for anything, but also says it won't affect green card holders going forward.


They should apologize for including green card holders.

They shouldn't apologize for continuing this ban. These are the same ideologies that Trump campaigned on, and they were elected for it.
There is no one like you in the universe.
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