EPTNo idea what 'xenoxplain' means.
US Politics Mega-thread - Page 6612
| Forum Index > Closed |
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
|
Euphorbus
92 Posts
No idea what 'xenoxplain' means. | ||
|
mustaju
Estonia4504 Posts
On January 21 2017 21:46 Antyee wrote: Well, it's kinda the same as that one guy who "educated" the Holocaust survivor on Reddit, that Trump really is Hitler, and he's wrong saying that they aren't the same. But yeah, I won't argue with people hopelessly stuck in their leftist bubble. Sadly, currently there is no real alternative. The left shattered into half a dozen parties, with maybe 1 of them having any weight left. The other relatively big party alienated most of their base by moving really hard to the left (they were the actual racists and anti-semites.) Most of the youth has no real option to vote. The vote turnouts are extremely low. There is a reason ~15% of the votes on the last referendum were spoilt ballots. There is simply noone to support. I don't dispute the part that Hungary currently has a rather awful political field (my news usually portrays it as a contest between Jobbik and Fidesz) , and I don't dispute that Orban was elected democratically, but there's always the option of organizing yourselves. What is your beef with MSZP and LPD, if I may ask? If you do not want to reply in the thread, I'd be glad to get a PM. | ||
|
TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On January 21 2017 21:34 Euphorbus wrote: Ok, so the argument for France is that since you have such a democratic deficit, you are safe. That's ironic. On January 21 2017 21:44 Euphorbus wrote: If 25% of the electorate vote on a certain party, and they get 0 senators, that is a democratic deficit. They ought to get near 25%. In a functional democracy, people should be able to 'vote wrong'. You cannot say France doesn't have the same problem as the US just because the way the system works annuls 25% of the vote. And it's not like those voters don't realize it. The current French system for the législatives is fairly bad, and antidemocratic in some way since it heavily benefits the two governmental parties; but even with a full proportional rule, the Front National wouldn't rule. There is nothing antidemocratic with the fact that you cannot rule with only 25% of the voices. | ||
|
Acrofales
Spain18088 Posts
On January 21 2017 10:30 RealityIsKing wrote: We have always known that many anti Trump people are violent. Especially by their way of namecalling and labeling everybody that proves them wrong into an absurd level which is why people are against fake news these days that the media establishment does these days. It will be especially interesting how this unfolds. At least be civilized. Who are you talking about? And to, for that matter? | ||
|
LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
"Tyranny of the majority" is the term that applies here. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On January 21 2017 21:46 Antyee wrote: Well, it's kinda the same as that one guy who "educated" the Holocaust survivor on Reddit, that Trump really is Hitler, and he's wrong saying that they aren't the same. But yeah, I won't argue with people hopelessly stuck in their leftist bubble. Sadly, currently there is no real alternative. The left shattered into half a dozen parties, with maybe 1 of them having any weight left. The other relatively big party alienated most of their base by moving really hard to the left (they were the actual racists and anti-semites.) Most of the youth has no real option to vote. The vote turnouts are extremely low. There is a reason ~15% of the votes on the last referendum were spoilt ballots. There is simply noone to support. It's fine to discuss or even be outraged just as long as both sides avoid descending into one liners etc. | ||
|
LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
Hopefully, though, this time it can be resolved by ballot rather than violence. | ||
|
kwizach
3658 Posts
On January 21 2017 22:33 LegalLord wrote: There is absolutely something that runs contrary to the spirit of how democracy is supposed to work when a frustrated substantial minority continues to be ignored by virtue of being a minority. "Tyranny of the majority" is the term that applies here. No, it really isn't. That's simply not how the expression is commonly understood -- it's supposed to refer to a minority group being actively oppressed (and often deliberately targeted) by the policies passed by the (representatives of the) majority of the population. FN voters are not being oppressed (and targeted) in such a way by any stretch of the imagination. One political party (almost) consistently failing to win elections and gain power because the citizens that don't vote for it tend to prefer any other option than that political party is certainly not an example in itself of "tyranny of the majority". | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28700 Posts
On January 21 2017 22:33 LegalLord wrote: There is absolutely something that runs contrary to the spirit of how democracy is supposed to work when a frustrated substantial minority continues to be ignored by virtue of being a minority. "Tyranny of the majority" is the term that applies here. I don't really agree with the application of the tyranny of the majority - but I certainly agree it's problematic that large swaths of the population can consistently be ignored. I think a Norwegianesque (shared by many of the other well-functioning european countries) parliamentary representative democracy handles the various issues better than any other, to be honest. (More in depth explanation follows- not really US politics so I'm spoilering) + Show Spoiler + Like, we have 19 larger counties all with a number of parliamentary representatives corresponding with their population (mostly - but we also have some adjustments in place to ensure that the most sparsely populated counties gets proper representation), and then we also have an extra number of mandates given to parties that manage to break a four percent threshold. And looking at the past 15 years or so of Norwegian politics, mostly every party in parliament has actually had real influence under this system. The socialist left (which during this period got between 5 and 12% of the vote) was part of the government for 8 years and got significant influence in terms of kindergarten coverage and climate regulation - but they didn't get to dictate taxation levels. Christian centrist party, consistently in the 6-8% range, largely succeeds in ensuring that we give at least 1% of budget to humanitarian aid, they get some minor optical victories through naming our religion & ethics course in school 'christianity and other religions' or something, to make sure we all remember that we have a christian heritage, but they have no say when it comes to abortion or gay rights. Farmer's party gets some pro-farmer / rural districts influence but nothing aside from that. Then there's the right wing progress party; and this is the really relevant part, has been talking about dangers of immigration for 30 years now. And while other parties have distanced themselves from the rhetoric they have used (and to be fair - the party leadership has also done a fairly good job distancing themselves from the more fringe elements), they have gotten very real influence in terms of policy. The labor party (social democrats) has adopted virtually all the reasonable suggestions for how to curtail out of control immigration - but without enabling any of the real hateful and dangerous elements. Basically, we have two very responsible governing parties - the labor party and the conservative party. These have either governed alone or been part of every single government coalition save one since 1945. Mostly all the other parties experience occasional political victories that please the base of those parties without hugely pissing off everyone else. It's hard to say whether it's really by design or whether it's just because our politicians have been good, responsible people (a description I apply to most members of the populist progress party as well), but I personally think the 4% threshold is really important and part of the explanation. If you get above that, then you're big enough not to be entirely ignored. I mean now that we have a conservative + progress party minority government, the socialist left doesn't have much influence, but over the past 20 years, they've had plenty. | ||
|
Maenander
Germany4926 Posts
China and the EU, on the other hand, are massive in economic terms. In economic terms, they are competitors. Trump has repeatedly said he wants to make good deals for the US, in other words deals in which the US is the stronger partner and has more leverage than the other side, i.e. preferably bilateral deals. The EU stands in the way of these deals, which makes its decomposition a common goal between Trump and Putin. | ||
|
LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
| ||
|
Gorsameth
Netherlands21888 Posts
On January 21 2017 23:23 Maenander wrote: If we assume Trump sees the world power distribution more in economic terms than in military terms, then his strategy to partner with Russia is actually quite logical. For all its natural resources and military prowess, Russia is quite weak economically. Actually, it's one of the least economically successful countries in the northern parts of the world, especially given its huge potential. China and the EU, on the other hand, are massive in economic terms. In economic terms, they are competitors. Trump has repeatedly said he wants to make good deals for the US, in other words means deals in which the US is the stronger partner and has more leverage than the other side, i.e. preferably bilateral deals. The EU stands in the way of these deals, which makes its decomposition a common goal between Trump and Putin. On the other side the US has a great negotiation position as the biggest economy and Chine and the EU are big markets for US goods (23% of exports are to the EU, 20% to China) so why piss them off when you can become their biggest partner instead? | ||
|
RvB
Netherlands6241 Posts
On January 21 2017 21:52 Euphorbus wrote: Yes, it is exactly the same! The holocaust and Hitler. You are only saying what you are saying because you are Hungarian. You act like this is some secret or some arcane knowledge. Everyone knows what happens. It is just that you are being gullible into believing CDA and VVD will rather sit in the opposition bench for 4 years than enter a coalition with Wilders. BTW, CDA is surely right wing. They are the traditional conservative family value Christian party in the Netherlands. They are the CDU of the Netherlands. How can they not be right wing? Just like Wilders took only 5 minutes, after the election result came in, to break his main campaign promises, so CDA and VVD will do the same. No I am not acting like it's some secret or arcane knowledge. I'm explaining thar your information is wrong. These parties did not promise to exclude the PVV and so they decided to try it out and it failed. That's a plausible explanation for them not wanting to govern with Wilders anymore. They can form a coalition without Wilders as I've already explained. Instead of calling me gullible maybe start questioning your own point of view instead when both of the Dutch posters who responded to you tell you you're wrong in this case. Anyway we're getting way off topic so I'll drop it after this post. | ||
|
LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
I say that because "a few Dutch people said X" might just be a skewed sample. Though they should certainly know more about their internal issues than outerlanders. | ||
|
Liquid`Drone
Norway28700 Posts
| ||
|
Simberto
Germany11587 Posts
On January 22 2017 00:01 LegalLord wrote: To be honest I think it would be interesting to find out how liberal our Europeans are relative to Europe as a whole. I suspect skew due to internet usage and knowledge of the English language. Most of our right-leaning folk seem to hail from English speaking countries. I say that because "a few Dutch people said X" might just be a skewed sample. Though they should certainly know more about their internal issues than outerlanders. That is probably a reasonable objection. I think you can generally assume that the subgroup of the population of a non-native language starcraft forum is on average more educated and younger than the whole group of the nation. I know that when i end up at comment sections or german-language forums, i often recoil in horror at the abject stupidity being present. (I am not talking about political stuff and viewpoints, just complete and utter stupidity and inability to form a rational argument. It doesn't even matter what the topic is. Just random stuff like people going on a forum for teachers to claim that all teachers are lazy, and complain about that.) Now, i think i recall that higher education and youth tend to correlate with more liberal views, but i don't know if that is empirically sound or just something i assumed. I am sadly too lazy to look for studies to support that. | ||
|
Euphorbus
92 Posts
On January 21 2017 23:57 RvB wrote: I'm explaining thar your information is wrong. What information? Your claim is that because they say they will exclude PVV now(which one of them isn't even saying), that means they will say the same thing after the elections. The narrative changes completely after the election is over. And it will change again after the first attempt to form a coalition without PVV has failed. If you think Rutte right now saying he can't imagine being in a coalition with Wilders means he won't do it, you are gullible. And VVD didn't even exclude PVV. Rutte said he estimates the odds to be zero. Completely different thing when a politician says that. Rutte is already saying he is willing to talk. Wilders spins it as if VVD excluded him, which he hopes will win him votes. If you think VVD is excluding PVV, you are factually wrong. If you think CDA excluding PVV now means they will keep excluding PVV, you are gullible. Instead of calling me gullible maybe start questioning your own point of view instead when both of the Dutch posters who responded to you tell you you're wrong in this case. Anyway we're getting way off topic so I'll drop it after this post. Just because someone on the internet is Dutch doesn't mean they know more about Dutch politics than I do. And even if they know more, that doesn't mean they are right. You probably know less. And if you actually knew more, I doubt it would save you from being wrong. User was warned for this post | ||
|
RvB
Netherlands6241 Posts
On January 22 2017 00:01 LegalLord wrote: To be honest I think it would be interesting to find out how liberal our Europeans are relative to Europe as a whole. I suspect skew due to internet usage and knowledge of the English language. Most of our right-leaning folk seem to hail from English speaking countries. I say that because "a few Dutch people said X" might just be a skewed sample. Though they should certainly know more about their internal issues than outerlanders. I'm a right winger. A liberal in the European sense. From looking at Gorsameths posts I'd say he's a leftist. So in this case thr sample of 2 isn't skewed :p. | ||
|
TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On January 21 2017 22:29 Acrofales wrote: Who are you talking about? And to, for that matter? I assume he's talking about the various marches organized as Trump protests. Funnily enough, it seems like conservative groups (O'Keefe and co) were actually counter-stung trying to incite violence at the inauguration, and probably tried to do the same at these. Though of course it's edited video. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/counter-sting-catches-james-okeefe-network-attempting-to-sow-chaos-at-trumps-inauguration_us_5873e26fe4b043ad97e516f7 | ||
|
DarkPlasmaBall
United States44845 Posts
https://m.mic.com/articles/165980/trump-plans-to-eliminate-25-violence-against-women-grant-programs-as-way-to-cut-spending#.6szYthnVz Should make it easier for our president to continue sexually assaulting women. Good to know! Attempting to save money at the expense of aiding Americans who are being raped and sexually assaulted is pretty awful imo. It's a pretty worthy cause, no? | ||
| ||
