EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 6384
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12376 Posts
On December 08 2016 10:25 LegalLord wrote: I will say this much and leave this topic be, because after the earlier "targeted killing of civilians" argument I wrote I just don't feel like getting into it again: the next time your own country has to deal with a threat of terrorists that are domestic and on your borders, often funded by foreign nation states, you may better appreciate the scope of what it takes to fight terrorism and win. Being able to complain about "human rights violations" in that scope is a luxury not afforded to nations in the position Israel is in. You've been baiting this conversation at least twice in the past three days, but now you don't feel like getting into it again. Okay. An appeal to emotion: what if your country had trouble? Sure I may feel differently then, however that is not an acceptable argument for the obvious reason that it's not an argument at all. "the scope of what it takes to fight terrorism and win" is essentially the same claim as "the ugly necessities of war". You still haven't demonstrated in any way that the scope is justified, or that the ugliness is necessary. | ||
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kwizach
3658 Posts
On December 08 2016 10:25 LegalLord wrote: I will say this much and leave this topic be, because after the earlier "targeted killing of civilians" argument I wrote I just don't feel like getting into it again: the next time your own country has to deal with a threat of terrorists that are domestic and on your borders, often funded by foreign nation states, you may better appreciate the scope of what it takes to fight terrorism and win. Being able to complain about "human rights violations" in that scope is a luxury not afforded to nations in the position Israel is in. This is a fallacious argument -- the policies and actions Israel is criticized for by many observers and which Nebuchad rightly brought up were not necessary to combat terrorism, or often even efficient (in some/most(/all?) cases, like the expansion of settlements, they can in fact be considered counter-productive with regards to the objectives of achieving peace and maximizing the safety of Israeli citizens). There are plenty of scholars and politicians within Israel itself who opposed and continue to oppose the actions, policies and security practices that you're defending, arguing that there are different paths that can be taken (and sometimes that have already been taken in the past). They are absolutely not unavoidable responses to the threat of terrorism. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23515 Posts
On December 08 2016 11:14 xDaunt wrote: Does anyone think that there will ever be peaceful coexistence between Israel and Palestine? I think the answer is no, so the only thing left to do is pick a side. And the millions of Palestinian people who just want peace and self-determination? What becomes of them? | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On December 08 2016 11:59 GreenHorizons wrote: And the millions of Palestinian people who just want peace and self-determination? What becomes of them? Not a happy ending. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On December 08 2016 11:59 GreenHorizons wrote: And the millions of Palestinian people who just want peace and self-determination? What becomes of them? That starts with stability. Which isn't very possible with terrorism. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On December 08 2016 11:59 GreenHorizons wrote: And the millions of Palestinian people who just want peace and self-determination? What becomes of them? Seriously, encourage them to be more politically active the next time their more numerous neighbors decides to support the likes of Hamas. Pick your war, argue on behalf of the peaceful German minority in the late 1930s that just want a resolution with the minimum loss of life. Things get messy when the majority favors bloodthirsty Islamists. They should really have more consideration for their nonviolent opposition! | ||
CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On December 08 2016 12:06 LegalLord wrote: That starts with stability. Which isn't very possible with terrorism. Let us not assume that 'Israel' desires regional stability in the first place either, and that terrorism is the primary obstacle to that. There are many parties within the country that are perfectly happy with, and eager to exacerbate, the current situation. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On December 08 2016 12:35 CosmicSpiral wrote: Why do people assume Israel wants regional stability and is only prevented by the advent of terrorism? Israel was built in something of an unfortunate place. Not that they had too much of a choice; it's hard to carve out an independent nation in the postwar world. But I'm sure a lasting stability would do them some good. I was actually referring to the "Palestinians who want to live in peace" here though. As it stands, they have to make peace with their significantly stronger neighbor if they want peace. Even if that might involve some degree of lost autonomy. There is a price to pay for being a weak nation. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23515 Posts
On December 08 2016 12:06 LegalLord wrote: That starts with stability. Which isn't very possible with terrorism. On December 08 2016 12:23 Danglars wrote: Seriously, encourage them to be more politically active the next time their more numerous neighbors decides to support the likes of Hamas. Pick your war, argue on behalf of the peaceful German minority in the late 1930s that just want a resolution with the minimum loss of life. Things get messy when the majority favors bloodthirsty Islamists. They should really have more consideration for their nonviolent opposition! Short of genocide (which I'm presuming no one is actually advocating for) you all realize this either means a permanent type of apartheid (which is basically a two state solution except only 1 state gets any power of self determination, and is antithetical to what we allegedly stand for as a nation), or the slow degradation of Jewish heritage control of the Israeli government through the forces of demographics and democracy? Or is there another outcome that you all are envisioning? | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
Realize that in a lot of these less stable places in the world, that kind of approach is something that creates resentment, but can be worked with. There is no magic solution that will satisfy everyone in a lasting way in the short term. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14056 Posts
This was actually a problem with Obamacare with the website not being in every language/not developed for a state by state need. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On December 08 2016 12:43 GreenHorizons wrote: Short of genocide (which I'm presuming no one is actually advocating for) you all realize this either means a permanent type of apartheid (which is basically a two state solution except only 1 state gets any power of self determination, and is antithetical to what we allegedly stand for as a nation), or the slow degradation of Jewish heritage control of the Israeli government through the forces of demographics and democracy? Or is there another outcome that you all are envisioning? The only permanent solution is for one culture to cleanse the other. There won't be peace until that happens. I'm not advocating for this result. I'm just acknowledging it as the reality of the situation. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14056 Posts
On December 08 2016 13:01 xDaunt wrote: The only permanent solution is for one culture to cleanse the other. There won't be peace until that happens. I'm not advocating for this result. I'm just acknowledging it as the reality of the situation. Or both cultures to be cleansed. America isn't the anglo saxon democracy it was envisioned to be at the beginning and won't even be a majority white nation in a generation. My greatest worry is that Palestinians and isrealies are not compatible with each other, the only way forward is to hope that they are. | ||
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On December 08 2016 13:07 Sermokala wrote: My greatest worry is that Palestinians and isrealies are not compatible with each other, the only way forward is to hope that they are. It's not a matter of compatibility, a la Huntington's culture clash. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23515 Posts
On December 08 2016 13:16 LegalLord wrote: Sometimes the road to peace starts with the realization that you won't be able to exist separate from your stronger neighbors and that you should make the best of being under their influence. Not always, but often. Resentment and strife always remain but they don't have to lead to war. We do realize our Declaration of Independence basically says it would be the responsibility and right of peaceful Palestinians to go to war with Israel under such an arrangement though? But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — | ||
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