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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On November 19 2016 03:54 Nebuchad wrote: Pretty sure you also advocated identity politics for rural communities recently, wouldn't you say? "Identity politics" refers to the Title VII classes (race, sex, religion, gender, etc). I wouldn't put rural interests into the same category. | ||
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biology]major
United States2253 Posts
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ACrow
Germany6583 Posts
On November 19 2016 03:56 xDaunt wrote: "Identity politics" refers to the Title VII classes (race, sex, religion, gender, etc). I wouldn't put rural interests into the same category. How convenient. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On November 19 2016 03:55 Nevuk wrote: They call everyone in a position lower in society than themselves boy. The implication by always calling black men boy is to explicitly clarify and reinforce their lower social standing. Basically you're trying to argue that southern culture isn't racist. That's not really true. I have a ton of family in the south and consider myself more of a southerner than anything else regionally. And no, I'm not making an argument as to whether there's racism in the South. I'm only commenting on the usage of the word. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 19 2016 03:23 LegalLord wrote: Just because you don't care about cultural decline doesn't mean others don't. As I've said, explaining this issue is like explaining to an uneducated person why college is important. Nevertheless, culture matters, even if you don't see that it does. This is why I try to stay out of these discussions, because it's difficult for me to empathize when I can't understand why it matters to people. | ||
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kwizach
3658 Posts
Obviously, this is not to say that white men should be ignored by policymakers, or that only policies and ideas helping minorities specifically should be developed and implemented. But it is clear from how the term "identity politics" has been used that it is frequently employed to dismiss and de-legitimize the addressing of issues and concerns faced specifically by minorities. edit: with regards to the "SJW" discussion, I agree with Nebuchad. While I absolutely disagree with some of the positions taken by some activists and student groups with regards to the expression of contradictory views in an academic setting (this is a broad statement, obviously, which still requires case-by-case analysis), the term has largely been developed and used (including in this thread) to preemptively dismiss perfectly valid voices and arguments on issues of race, gender, religion, etc. -- simply because those voices happen to take positions that go beyond what some (usually reactionary) people are willing to accept as legitimate criticism on those issues. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On November 19 2016 04:00 TheYango wrote: This is why I try to stay out of these discussions, because it's difficult for me to empathize when I can't understand why it matters to people. And I'm not sure there is any way to explain why it does matter. I certainly don't know how to do it, at any rate. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On November 19 2016 03:59 xDaunt wrote: That's not really true. I have a ton of family in the south and consider myself more of a southerner than anything else regionally. And no, I'm not making an argument as to whether there's racism in the South. I'm only commenting on the usage of the word. It might vary depending on the state. I didn't say it was particularly illspirited, but for instance it is something people say about men younger than themselves pretty frequently, but no one in their right mind would call a judge boy. That's the impression I've gotten from living in KY and visiting SC a lot. As a side note, I believe sessions that it was a joke about the KKK. It is pretty easy to see it rubbing people the wrong way though. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12379 Posts
On November 19 2016 03:56 xDaunt wrote: "Identity politics" refers to the Title VII classes (race, sex, religion, gender, etc). I wouldn't put rural interests into the same category. Is this another word with an american definition and a world definition? | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On that precise point, the New York Times, in a widely circulated article, will describe this day at Trump Tower as a scene of “disarray” for the transition team. In fact, it’s all hands on: Mike Pence, the vice president-elect and transition chief, and Reince Priebus, the new chief of staff, shuttling between full conference rooms; Jared Kushner, Trump’s son-in-law and by many accounts his closest advisor, conferring in the halls; Sen. Jeff Sessions in and out of meetings on the transition team floor; Rudy Giuliani upstairs with Trump (overheard: “Is the boss meeting-meeting with Rudy or just shooting the shit?”), and Bannon with a long line of men and women outside his corner office. If this is disarray, it’s a peculiarly focused and organized kind. | ||
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GoTuNk!
Chile4591 Posts
On November 19 2016 02:29 Doodsmack wrote: And yes, alt right white nationalism is at the core of Trump's support, and perhaps policy, considering the position of Bannon. Bannon's stated world view is one of protecting the supremacy of Judeo-Christian culture. Protecting the right to life, liberty and property, the non-agression principle, free speech, separation of church and state, equality against the law, due process and innocent until proven guilty, small government (or at least not HUGE government). Yes, those are the values many Trump supporters voted for. I like them as well, and consider them superior to other cultures. It's about values, not race, by the way. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On November 19 2016 04:11 Nebuchad wrote: Is this another word with an american definition and a world definition? Title VII is the major federal anti-discrimination statute in the US that protects people on the basis of things like race, sex, color, religion, and national origin. So really what I'm saying is that "identity politics" is the appeal/pandering to people on the basis of their identity -- race, sex, religion, and sexual orientation -- as opposed to catering to economic interest groups like unions or farmers. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12379 Posts
On November 19 2016 04:15 xDaunt wrote: Title VII is the major federal anti-discrimination statute in the US that protects people on the basis of things like race, sex, color, religion, and national origin. So really what I'm saying is that "identity politics" is the appeal/pandering to people on the basis of their identity -- race, sex, religion, and sexual orientation -- as opposed to catering to economic interest groups like unions or farmers. I got your position but I've seen it used in a broader context fairly commonly, so I'm wondering if that's an american vs world thing, cause that's happened before. I just googled it and found wikipedia is on my side (for what it's worth). | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
He absolutely — mockingly — rejects the idea that this is a racial line. “I’m not a white nationalist, I’m a nationalist. I’m an economic nationalist,” he tells me. “The globalists gutted the American working class and created a middle class in Asia. The issue now is about Americans looking to not get f—ed over. If we deliver—” by "we" he means the Trump White House "—we’ll get 60 percent of the white vote, and 40 percent of the black and Hispanic vote and we’ll govern for 50 years. That’s what the Democrats missed, they were talking to these people with companies with a $9 billion market cap employing nine people. It’s not reality. They lost sight of what the world is about.” In a nascent administration that seems, at best, random in its beliefs, Bannon can seem to be not just a focused voice, but almost a messianic one: “Like [Andrew] Jackson’s populism, we’re going to build an entirely new political movement,” he says. “It’s everything related to jobs. The conservatives are going to go crazy. I’m the guy pushing a trillion-dollar infrastructure plan. With negative interest rates throughout the world, it’s the greatest opportunity to rebuild everything. Ship yards, iron works, get them all jacked up. We’re just going to throw it up against the wall and see if it sticks. It will be as exciting as the 1930s, greater than the Reagan revolution — conservatives, plus populists, in an economic nationalist movement.” .... “I am,” he says, with relish, “Thomas Cromwell in the court of the Tudors.” | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On November 19 2016 04:18 Nyxisto wrote: The identity politics debate basically has gained prominence since control of the institutions has turned around. Decades ago racists love to use identity politics because they were in control of institutions and thus had a grip on it, nowadays identity is seen as a tool of empowerment for minorities and racists have figured out that the marketplace of ideas and some kind of pseudo-egalitarianism is a way better tool to discriminate. Kind of how leaking tons of bullshit has become a better method of censorship than withholding information. Nothing really has changed, it's just that places have been swapped. this is somewhat reminiscent of how "states rights" was sometimes used in back in the 50s. Plenty of people on the right (and left and all over) use what one might well consider identity politics, but it's not acceptable these days to have pro-white/male identity politics (for justifiable historical reasons), so those doing it use another cover. So there's a mix of people, some who're using it as a cover for racism (usually still a far midler form of racism than that existed historically), and those who're using it for the stated cover reasons (which take on a life of their own, and were after all chosen because they have some validity, so some take them just for that). This leads to confusion for others cuz it's very hard to tell which people are doing it for the decent reasons and which are doing it for the bad ones. Generalized accusations of identity politics, while perhaps sometimes justified, are seldom productive, it'd be far better to focus on what the actual specific policies are and go over those. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On November 19 2016 04:27 xDaunt wrote: Take a look at this Bannon quote from the interview that I cited earlier: His Vatican speech was not just about economic nationalism, it was very much about Judeo-Christian culture. He's not being up front here. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On November 19 2016 04:47 Doodsmack wrote: His Vatican speech was not just about economic nationalism, it was very much about Judeo-Christian culture. He's not being up front here. Your mistake is in thinking that the two are mutually exclusive and in failing to appreciate why he might give a different emphasis at the Vatican than he would elsewhere. | ||
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kwizach
3658 Posts
Obama Reckons with a Trump Presidency | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On November 19 2016 04:49 xDaunt wrote: Your mistake is in thinking that the two are mutually exclusive and in failing to appreciate why he might give a different emphasis at the Vatican than he would elsewhere. I'm saying they aren't mutually exclusive, they're all tied up, and it doesn't make sense for him to say only one applies. | ||
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