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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-16 02:36:00
November 16 2016 02:34 GMT
#124821
I mean, the Trump campaign fucked up over and over and technically shouldn't have been on the ballot in Minnesota, and screwed up tons of delegate seats in the primary-the organization level is just not there and I don't know why anyone thinks it would be just because the election finished a week ago.

If anyone was voting for Trump because they expected his team to be organized and meet deadlines, they are living in yet another reality that wasn't pushed by any media I'm aware of.

That said it doesn't really matter yet.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-16 02:43:22
November 16 2016 02:42 GMT
#124822
On November 16 2016 08:40 LegalLord wrote:
The government has to lead those industries towards the rural direction. That is a truly daunting task but to the extent that it can be done it should be. If the trade deals fall apart, for example, to some extent that will force companies to look elsewhere for business opportunities, possibly inward.

I understand that this could be done, but is this a better long-term outcome than accepting urbanization/automation of rural industries?

This is probably my total naivete on these matters speaking, but I'm unclear how appeasing the cultural security of a particular sub-population is worth shifting course. What do we gain as a society from preserving this idea of "rural America", as compared to accepting urbanization as the future?
Moderator
Stratos_speAr
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6959 Posts
November 16 2016 02:46 GMT
#124823
On November 16 2016 11:42 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2016 08:40 LegalLord wrote:
The government has to lead those industries towards the rural direction. That is a truly daunting task but to the extent that it can be done it should be. If the trade deals fall apart, for example, to some extent that will force companies to look elsewhere for business opportunities, possibly inward.

I understand that this could be done, but is this a better long-term outcome than accepting urbanization/automation of rural industries?

This is probably my total naivete on these matters speaking, but I'm unclear how appeasing the cultural security of a particular sub-population is worth shifting course. What do we gain as a society from preserving this idea of "rural America", as compared to accepting urbanization as the future?


Well, first off, total urbanization isn't sustainable.

You can't just have everyone live in urban areas. There are too many things that are integral to society that occur in rural areas, and you can't just ditch the individuals in these rural communities. You have to support these communities so people can live in the rural parts of the country to get the things done that need to be done to support society as a whole.
A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-16 03:02:10
November 16 2016 03:01 GMT
#124824
On November 16 2016 11:46 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2016 11:42 TheYango wrote:
On November 16 2016 08:40 LegalLord wrote:
The government has to lead those industries towards the rural direction. That is a truly daunting task but to the extent that it can be done it should be. If the trade deals fall apart, for example, to some extent that will force companies to look elsewhere for business opportunities, possibly inward.

I understand that this could be done, but is this a better long-term outcome than accepting urbanization/automation of rural industries?

This is probably my total naivete on these matters speaking, but I'm unclear how appeasing the cultural security of a particular sub-population is worth shifting course. What do we gain as a society from preserving this idea of "rural America", as compared to accepting urbanization as the future?


Well, first off, total urbanization isn't sustainable.

You can't just have everyone live in urban areas. There are too many things that are integral to society that occur in rural areas, and you can't just ditch the individuals in these rural communities. You have to support these communities so people can live in the rural parts of the country to get the things done that need to be done to support society as a whole.

That's basically it. Leaving most of the country barren while filling up the coasts is about as bad an idea as it sounds. A country that doesn't take care of its rural industries is going to very quickly find itself out of food, natural resources, and the like. Important stuff happens in the inner lands, even if the tendency of technological change leads those communities to get the short end of the stick.

Imagine having to import all your food from South America and all your steel from China because you didn't foster your own agricultural and mining industries. That leaves your country extremely vulnerable to the winds of change in trade and that's not a good thing. And that really does happen.

Culture also has a very long term value. A nation that doesn't have a strong sense of culture will have no reason to stay together if things start to look bad. This can be a truly deadly thing in the long run.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-16 03:07:50
November 16 2016 03:07 GMT
#124825
The problem isn't so much agriculture as it's highly automatised anyway (and will be subsidised if need be) but all these sprawling industry based cities that really have no substance to live on. It's a little harder to manage those because them being spread out so much makes it very difficult to get some modern service economy reliant on infrastructure going.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
November 16 2016 03:29 GMT
#124826
I'm pretty sure he wasn't advocating total urbanization; but a somewhat lower rural population, as has happened a lot historically as the rural work required fewer and fewer people to do.
Still a hard transition to do of course.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
November 16 2016 05:25 GMT
#124827
So under the circumstances, people have understandably been calling for the abolition of the electoral college, citing its antiquated nature. I haven't looked into it all that much but one argument that I've seen being used is "Abolishment would only mean the pandering would switch from the swing states to the population centers".

Isn't it incredibly narrow-minded to tie this question to geography? Because from my perspective, when it comes to electing the president of the US, geography is a non-factor, one person = 1/n of the voice seems perfectly reasonable. Furthermore, there is no pandering in a neutral system like this, and if the idea is that population centers are more liberal and rural areas are more conservative, that also doesn't matter. The geographical location of people is consequential on their ideology, but why try to control for that? Their ideology is their ideology, there's no reason to try to dampen it artificially to try to "even out" the urban/rural divide.

I see no interest in thinking about the presidency in terms of geography, I think it's an old tradition that has no advantage and doesn't do anything to strengthen the legitimacy of the democratic institutions. And the presidency is not really the level of government where the management of the sociocultural and socioeconomic concerns of specific regions should necessarily be emphasized, that shit should be played on a State level.

So faced with the election of someone who had fewer votes, it seems reasonable to say that the "pandering" element is not all that important, when the quality of the democratic institutions is frankly shaken at its roots from the scale of the distortion between what "We the people" said they wanted and what actually ended up happening...
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13909 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-16 06:11:20
November 16 2016 05:49 GMT
#124828
I think people mistake "pandering" to being a bad thing like it isn't the basic job description for the role we're electing people fore.

Making population centers the only ones that matter during an election would mean that a candidate would never leave the population centers because it wouldn't be efficient to do an event outside of an area with less then a million people there.Not even all urban centers would be worth it to campaign in even. The Midwest wouldn't get anyone going to it outside of say Chicago or Detroit All you would be doing is disenfranchising more people at the benefit of changing the people who are disenfranchised.

Frankly the government institutions we have are federalist and not democratic and the EC reflects that well. Everyone that keeps insisting America is a democracy in any way needs to go back to civics classes. The EC only goes against the popular vote in very close edge cases. When one candidate is winning by millions and still loses then it'll be a problem.

Not to mention how it'll never pass asking a majority of states to freely make themselves ilrelevent in a general election in order to make other states matter more.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Jaaaaasper
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
United States10225 Posts
November 16 2016 06:12 GMT
#124829
Hey look more than half the people arrested at a anti trump protest didn't vote. That's both ironic and sad. The number of people who didn't vote but are now horrified by who became presidant really annoys me, becuase they passed up the once chance they had to protest that actually mattered. Source
Hey do you want to hear a joke? Chinese production value. | I thought he had a aegis- Ayesee | When did 7ing mad last have a good game, 2012?
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13909 Posts
November 16 2016 06:20 GMT
#124830
And another thing. the amount of people that vote or not shouldn't depend on the presidential election when so many local government issues on the state and city level that matter as much to peoples daily lives as the presidential election.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
sharkie
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Austria18397 Posts
November 16 2016 06:20 GMT
#124831
On November 16 2016 08:44 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2016 08:43 Nakama wrote:
For someone not that much familiar with American culture and poltics like some of the posters in here seem to be , i would be really thankfull if anyone could explain me how on earth u can call HC or the DCP "Left". Or how it is possible to accuse someone to belong to the establishment and at the Same time to be left. if u interpret "left" like i do ( Marx etc.) it is a contradiction isnt it?
Besides Bernie they all seem to me like mid-right more then anything else.

US left = Europe right.
US right = Europe far-right
US far-left = Europe left

Roughly speaking, of course.


So no more center left? Sounds like Europe
Jaaaaasper
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
United States10225 Posts
November 16 2016 06:31 GMT
#124832
On November 16 2016 15:20 Sermokala wrote:
And another thing. the amount of people that vote or not shouldn't depend on the presidential election when so many local government issues on the state and city level that matter as much to peoples daily lives as the presidential election.

I really want mandatory voting, or at least election day being a national holiday so there are no excuses not to vote.
Hey do you want to hear a joke? Chinese production value. | I thought he had a aegis- Ayesee | When did 7ing mad last have a good game, 2012?
LemOn
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
United Kingdom8629 Posts
November 16 2016 07:09 GMT
#124833
Yeah these protests seem really dumb to me - not accepting clear election results, and being people that didn't even vote lol.

Stay home, hit the streets and show activism when specific policies start to get proposed I say!
Much is the father figure that I miss in my life. Go Daddy! DoC.LemOn, LemOn[5thF]
Laurens
Profile Joined September 2010
Belgium4541 Posts
November 16 2016 07:47 GMT
#124834
On November 16 2016 15:31 Jaaaaasper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2016 15:20 Sermokala wrote:
And another thing. the amount of people that vote or not shouldn't depend on the presidential election when so many local government issues on the state and city level that matter as much to peoples daily lives as the presidential election.

I really want mandatory voting, or at least election day being a national holiday so there are no excuses not to vote.


In Belgium it's mandatory to turn up to the voting station, but not mandatory to vote.
Slightly easier in a country with 11 million people of course.
iPlaY.NettleS
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Australia4329 Posts
November 16 2016 07:51 GMT
#124835
On November 16 2016 16:09 LemOn wrote:
Yeah these protests seem really dumb to me - not accepting clear election results, and being people that didn't even vote lol.

Stay home, hit the streets and show activism when specific policies start to get proposed I say!

Should be over in a few days but they are apparently organising a massive protest for the inauguration.
That could be the one to watch out for.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7PvoI6gvQs
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6284 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-16 07:59:42
November 16 2016 07:52 GMT
#124836
On November 16 2016 10:53 LegalLord wrote:
Well he has to speak to the guy who got him into power, right?

In all seriousness, word on the grapevine is that Trump wants to focus on ISIS more than on Assad - and that basically lets Russia continue on its way in Syria.

In all likelihood Trump will mostly get enough neocons on his team to make some rather impressive military stupidity be visible in his presidency. It will be funny though, trying to reconcile Trump with the Republicans.

How is ending the war in Syria/Iraq impressive military stupidity? The whole thing could have ended in 2012 when there were only 30k dead but Obama thought the rebels could take the whole country. Four hundred thousand people have died since then and a large part of those rebels spawned into ISIS. (edit: not to mention the migrant crisis)

Assad still controls 8 out of the 10 largest population centers in Syria and it would take a full NATO invasion to defeat him now. If Trump can push through a deal with the Russians that would make Assad step aside after the war at least the war is finally over and US press could push a 'everybody wins' narrative. Miles better than the red line fiasco.
"If only Kircheis were here" - Everyone
BlueBird.
Profile Joined August 2008
United States3889 Posts
November 16 2016 07:59 GMT
#124837
On November 16 2016 16:09 LemOn wrote:
Yeah these protests seem really dumb to me - not accepting clear election results, and being people that didn't even vote lol.

Stay home, hit the streets and show activism when specific policies start to get proposed I say!


The "wait until something happens proposal??" :/

As soon as Bannon and Ebell got announced there was legitimate reason to protest.

Currently Playing: Android Netrunner, Gwent, Gloomhaven, Board Games
Laurens
Profile Joined September 2010
Belgium4541 Posts
November 16 2016 08:04 GMT
#124838
Are the riots still happening? The last time it was covered in our news was 2 days ago when those 71 people were arrested in Portland.
Incognoto
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
France10239 Posts
November 16 2016 08:06 GMT
#124839
On November 16 2016 15:31 Jaaaaasper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2016 15:20 Sermokala wrote:
And another thing. the amount of people that vote or not shouldn't depend on the presidential election when so many local government issues on the state and city level that matter as much to peoples daily lives as the presidential election.

I really want mandatory voting, or at least election day being a national holiday so there are no excuses not to vote.


I saw the lines from voting centers. I think I might not have voted if it were going to take me more than several hours.

It's either voter suppression or badly organized voting, both of which require attention.
maru lover forever
LemOn
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
United Kingdom8629 Posts
November 16 2016 08:23 GMT
#124840
On November 16 2016 16:59 BlueBird. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2016 16:09 LemOn wrote:
Yeah these protests seem really dumb to me - not accepting clear election results, and being people that didn't even vote lol.

Stay home, hit the streets and show activism when specific policies start to get proposed I say!


The "wait until something happens proposal??" :/

As soon as Bannon and Ebell got announced there was legitimate reason to protest.


Well yeah but that's not why the protests happened. People went out with "trump's not my president" basically attacking people that voted for him when they didn't vote/voted 3rd party themselves, hard to not see it as total bullshit - if they went out because of those appointments or specifics he'll do instead of basically protesting the voting system they kept silent about all this time it'd be okay, it just seems like they were protests for the sake of protesting, not accepting election results which was the very thing they criticised trump for potentially doing
Much is the father figure that I miss in my life. Go Daddy! DoC.LemOn, LemOn[5thF]
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