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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
I would not be surprised to see Roberts start edging towards more liberal decision making should Trump have the opportunity to stack the courts with neocons.
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On November 10 2016 01:15 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 01:02 xDaunt wrote:On November 10 2016 00:57 Incognoto wrote:On November 10 2016 00:53 xDaunt wrote:
For all of you liberals standing at the edge of the cliff, take some solace in the following:
1) American institutions are tremendously resilient. The impact that Trump will have without some degree of bipartisan support won't be that big.
2) Yes, Obamacare is done. Good riddance to it. It's clearly a steaming pile of shit and an anchor on the Democrats. But here's the silver lining: I give it a better than even chance that Trump advocates for some sort of government option (think Medicare for all) as the replacement.
3) Abortion rights aren't going anywhere. Gay rights aren't going anywhere. You've won on these issues. Even if Trump gets capped and Pence takes over, there's nothing that the president can do to unwind the progress that's been made. Virtually no judge that Trump may appoint will overturn the precedents that have been set. Judges are egotistical assholes, and they'd rather not tarnish their reputations (see John Roberts). And the American people don't have the appetite for a protracted cultural war on these issues right now. Trump didn't even run on those issues. There are bigger fish to fry. Which takes me to my last point....
4) Trump is a moderate at heart, and I fully expect him to govern like a moderate. Pay attention to his speech from last night. Notice how he didn't mention the wall? Or even the immigration issue at all? I know everyone is all wound up thanks to the media's relentless negative portrayal of him over the past six months, but I think that there is a real danger that Trump's supporters will be the ones who find themselves supremely disappointed over the next two-four years. Obamacare might be bad (because it's expensive? as far as I read that's the only issue with it?) but it did some very important things in regards to insurance companies no longer being able to fuck over people with health issues. You can't ethically allow health insurance companies to refuse social protection to people because they have health issues. It's fucking stupid Obamacare is bad because it has 1) gutted the insurance coverage of those who had it and were happy with it (a lot of people), 2) it made that coverage more expensive, 3) and it forced expensive coverage on a lot of people who don't even want it. Yes, Obamacare does provide coverage to people with preexisting coverage, but the cost to everyone is way too high. Obamacare is clearly the wrong solution. OK that makes sense to me but I want to ask a few more questions before I'm truly satisfied. First off, who doesn't want health care? Doesn't want as in "I'm fine with dying if I get cancer" or "I can't afford to cover myself against cancer so I just won't and hope that I don't get it". Neither of them seem remotely appealing. I think that there were a few people in the second predicament and that Obamacare forced them to get coverage anyway (which is certainly clumsy no doubt). The kneejerk reaction from insurance companies (who are all hell-spawn as far as I'm concerned since the number one thing that insurance companies will do is to take your money but avoid covering you when you need it) is to raise rates across the board, as a way to have leverage against obamacare. I don't find it easy to position myself against obamacare, to me the assholes here are the insurance companies.
It's not that people don't want healthcare. The problem is that not everyone wants to pay for healthcare. In a private system, it is incumbent upon the individual to protect himself. I personally place a premium on insurance similar protections and hedges against risk, so I have always been well-covered. Not everyone thinks like me, though.
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On November 10 2016 00:31 pmh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 00:29 zlefin wrote:
there's no convincing some agnry sanders people; in fact, there's no convincing most people in general on a rational basis, we just have to hope the convincing reasonable people are enough to sway the outcome. You can convince those people,but you can not convince them by words alone. You have to convince them by actions that improve their every day live and by policies that matter to them on a small scale. They don't have those ideologic big dreams,no time for that when you are working 60 hours a week to just come by.
I would if I were in charge, but I'm not.
but also, mos tpeople are NOT convinced by a rational argument no matter how well done. most people don't have the training to recognize a proper argument.
most people also don't have the ability to accurately tell the sourcing of things that are hurting/helping them.
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The democrats are now going to pay the price for tolerating Obama's broadening of executive power.
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On November 10 2016 01:14 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 01:11 Gorsameth wrote:On November 10 2016 01:10 oneofthem wrote:On November 10 2016 01:09 Gorsameth wrote:On November 10 2016 01:02 xDaunt wrote:On November 10 2016 00:57 Incognoto wrote:On November 10 2016 00:53 xDaunt wrote:
For all of you liberals standing at the edge of the cliff, take some solace in the following:
1) American institutions are tremendously resilient. The impact that Trump will have without some degree of bipartisan support won't be that big.
2) Yes, Obamacare is done. Good riddance to it. It's clearly a steaming pile of shit and an anchor on the Democrats. But here's the silver lining: I give it a better than even chance that Trump advocates for some sort of government option (think Medicare for all) as the replacement.
3) Abortion rights aren't going anywhere. Gay rights aren't going anywhere. You've won on these issues. Even if Trump gets capped and Pence takes over, there's nothing that the president can do to unwind the progress that's been made. Virtually no judge that Trump may appoint will overturn the precedents that have been set. Judges are egotistical assholes, and they'd rather not tarnish their reputations (see John Roberts). And the American people don't have the appetite for a protracted cultural war on these issues right now. Trump didn't even run on those issues. There are bigger fish to fry. Which takes me to my last point....
4) Trump is a moderate at heart, and I fully expect him to govern like a moderate. Pay attention to his speech from last night. Notice how he didn't mention the wall? Or even the immigration issue at all? I know everyone is all wound up thanks to the media's relentless negative portrayal of him over the past six months, but I think that there is a real danger that Trump's supporters will be the ones who find themselves supremely disappointed over the next two-four years. Obamacare might be bad (because it's expensive? as far as I read that's the only issue with it?) but it did some very important things in regards to insurance companies no longer being able to fuck over people with health issues. You can't ethically allow health insurance companies to refuse social protection to people because they have health issues. It's fucking stupid Obamacare is bad because it has 1) gutted the insurance coverage of those who had it and were happy with it (a lot of people), 2) it made that coverage more expensive, 3) and it forced expensive coverage on a lot of people who don't even want it. Yes, Obamacare does provide coverage to people with preexisting coverage, but the cost to everyone is way too high. Obamacare is clearly the wrong solution. 1) Many of those plans were useless because the insurer could kick you out if you ever actually got ill 2) True 3) No one can afford an actual serious injury/illness. If your not insured society pays the bill The problem with the ACA was price and that was because the US allows insurers to be greedy fucks who price gouge their customers. Healthcare doesn't have to be so expensive. insurers and providers/pharma, mostly providers and pharma The insurance companies are the ones with the power to force down the price. Consumers cannot do this because they have no power over their health. a lot of consolidation/patents etc on the suppliers side. insurance wants to reduce payout but not overall volume of healthcare services.
Big insurance companies have the power to say "we will buy your medicine but only at X price. Say no and you miss out on 10's of millions of customers". They have a bargaining position to work from to get prices down without reducing the volume of services.
On November 10 2016 01:13 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 01:09 Gorsameth wrote:On November 10 2016 01:02 xDaunt wrote:On November 10 2016 00:57 Incognoto wrote:On November 10 2016 00:53 xDaunt wrote:
For all of you liberals standing at the edge of the cliff, take some solace in the following:
1) American institutions are tremendously resilient. The impact that Trump will have without some degree of bipartisan support won't be that big.
2) Yes, Obamacare is done. Good riddance to it. It's clearly a steaming pile of shit and an anchor on the Democrats. But here's the silver lining: I give it a better than even chance that Trump advocates for some sort of government option (think Medicare for all) as the replacement.
3) Abortion rights aren't going anywhere. Gay rights aren't going anywhere. You've won on these issues. Even if Trump gets capped and Pence takes over, there's nothing that the president can do to unwind the progress that's been made. Virtually no judge that Trump may appoint will overturn the precedents that have been set. Judges are egotistical assholes, and they'd rather not tarnish their reputations (see John Roberts). And the American people don't have the appetite for a protracted cultural war on these issues right now. Trump didn't even run on those issues. There are bigger fish to fry. Which takes me to my last point....
4) Trump is a moderate at heart, and I fully expect him to govern like a moderate. Pay attention to his speech from last night. Notice how he didn't mention the wall? Or even the immigration issue at all? I know everyone is all wound up thanks to the media's relentless negative portrayal of him over the past six months, but I think that there is a real danger that Trump's supporters will be the ones who find themselves supremely disappointed over the next two-four years. Obamacare might be bad (because it's expensive? as far as I read that's the only issue with it?) but it did some very important things in regards to insurance companies no longer being able to fuck over people with health issues. You can't ethically allow health insurance companies to refuse social protection to people because they have health issues. It's fucking stupid Obamacare is bad because it has 1) gutted the insurance coverage of those who had it and were happy with it (a lot of people), 2) it made that coverage more expensive, 3) and it forced expensive coverage on a lot of people who don't even want it. Yes, Obamacare does provide coverage to people with preexisting coverage, but the cost to everyone is way too high. Obamacare is clearly the wrong solution. 1) Many of those plans were useless because the insurer could kick you out if you ever actually got ill 2) True 3) No one can afford an actual serious injury/illness. If your not insured society pays the bill The problem with the ACA was price and that was because the US allows insurers to be greedy fucks who price gouge their customers. Healthcare doesn't have to be so expensive. Obamacare didn't even address the root problems of the expense of healthcare in the US. At best, Obamacare is a crude fix to providing universal coverage for everyone (which I agree is necessary). And I think you're grossly overstating the problem with the bad insurance plans. Yes, they were out there (and still are), but the difference now is that people are being priced into those plans because they can't get good ones at affordable rates. So who is the joke really on?
And in the 6 years where the Republicans could have worked to fix the problem they instead had 50 votes to repeal the ACA with nothing in place to replace it.
Yes its far from perfect. Everyone has always said as much, but its a step in the right direction and everything begins with a step.
I'm actually really interested in what the GOP will do with the ACA now. They will have to repeal it I feel but they need to come up with an actual effective replacement first.
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On November 10 2016 01:16 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 01:11 WhiteDog wrote:On November 10 2016 01:08 ACrow wrote:On November 10 2016 01:05 xDaunt wrote:On November 10 2016 00:58 Logo wrote:3) Abortion rights aren't going anywhere. Gay rights aren't going anywhere. You've won on these issues. Even if Trump gets capped and Pence takes over, there's nothing that the president can do to unwind the progress that's been made. Virtually no judge that Trump may appoint will overturn the precedents that have been set. Judges are egotistical assholes, and they'd rather not tarnish their reputations (see John Roberts). And the American people don't have the appetite for a protracted cultural war on these issues right now. Trump didn't even run on those issues. There are bigger fish to fry. Which takes me to my last point.... This one seems incorrect (the abortion part)? There's already a bunch of states chipping away at abortion rights by imposing overly strict regulations on where abortions can be performed or allowing shady centers to operate that appear to be about family planning or offer abortions but then really hammer anti-abortion messages into you. See: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/06/01/14-states-have-passed-laws-making-it-harder-to-get-an-abortion-already-this-year/ among others. Anyone can get an abortion in this country. Unless you're an advocate for late term abortions, the battle is being fought at the margins over convenience. This is a non-issue that is blown out of proportion by the left. That is so egotistical it is disgusting. "I'm male, so I'm not affected, so I don't care". Jerk. Keep your nose out of women's affairs and let them decide you control freak. Come on that's not what he said ... I truly wonder : is the vote Trump some kind of millenarism ? Did US citizens showed their desire for the end of the world ?I've had some tough discussion with students this morning. The media attacked their brains so much they actually thought Trump meant WW3. Like I've said for a long time (and you have said the same), what exactly did Trump supporters have to lose? What was their alternative? They've been maligned culturally for so long, that a populist revolt was inevitable.
I think most people probably thought that type of revolt would be more palatable. Or more for "the people" and not just the white working class.
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Stuff that happened overnight that people didn't care about (mostly Russia related since... well, you know).
Carrier has arrived: the Russian aircraft carrier has been operating in Syria and they just chased away a Dutch sub that was within 20km of the carrier. Russia is expected to double down on Aleppo right now.
Gas prices and the ruble dropped overnight. Though in the long run it's probably for the best.
Russian government officials had asked to observe US elections, "at a time convenient to the US electoral officials." The ambassador sent a formal request to a few states to ask them for that chance, and was denied (before you ask, it is a pretty normal thing for a foreign government to ask for that). Now, Russia basically said, "if we can't observe yours, then you can't observe ours."
East Europeans seem to be in a panic over Trump's earlier statements. You might see by the fact that Ukraine got brought into here.
We will find that we should be very thankful that the US system is well-designed and quite resilient to these kinds of matters, and we won't be dealing with a full collapse.
Netanyahu called Trump a "true friend" to Israel.
Bernie Sanders folk have been thoroughly vilified for not getting behind Hillary hard enough.
I earned the right to mock Hillary Clinton's electability for the next few months per my earlier statement.
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Katy Perry: "What's wrong with being confident?".
Guess it just loses you the presidency.
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On November 10 2016 01:18 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 01:15 Incognoto wrote:On November 10 2016 01:02 xDaunt wrote:On November 10 2016 00:57 Incognoto wrote:On November 10 2016 00:53 xDaunt wrote:
For all of you liberals standing at the edge of the cliff, take some solace in the following:
1) American institutions are tremendously resilient. The impact that Trump will have without some degree of bipartisan support won't be that big.
2) Yes, Obamacare is done. Good riddance to it. It's clearly a steaming pile of shit and an anchor on the Democrats. But here's the silver lining: I give it a better than even chance that Trump advocates for some sort of government option (think Medicare for all) as the replacement.
3) Abortion rights aren't going anywhere. Gay rights aren't going anywhere. You've won on these issues. Even if Trump gets capped and Pence takes over, there's nothing that the president can do to unwind the progress that's been made. Virtually no judge that Trump may appoint will overturn the precedents that have been set. Judges are egotistical assholes, and they'd rather not tarnish their reputations (see John Roberts). And the American people don't have the appetite for a protracted cultural war on these issues right now. Trump didn't even run on those issues. There are bigger fish to fry. Which takes me to my last point....
4) Trump is a moderate at heart, and I fully expect him to govern like a moderate. Pay attention to his speech from last night. Notice how he didn't mention the wall? Or even the immigration issue at all? I know everyone is all wound up thanks to the media's relentless negative portrayal of him over the past six months, but I think that there is a real danger that Trump's supporters will be the ones who find themselves supremely disappointed over the next two-four years. Obamacare might be bad (because it's expensive? as far as I read that's the only issue with it?) but it did some very important things in regards to insurance companies no longer being able to fuck over people with health issues. You can't ethically allow health insurance companies to refuse social protection to people because they have health issues. It's fucking stupid Obamacare is bad because it has 1) gutted the insurance coverage of those who had it and were happy with it (a lot of people), 2) it made that coverage more expensive, 3) and it forced expensive coverage on a lot of people who don't even want it. Yes, Obamacare does provide coverage to people with preexisting coverage, but the cost to everyone is way too high. Obamacare is clearly the wrong solution. OK that makes sense to me but I want to ask a few more questions before I'm truly satisfied. First off, who doesn't want health care? Doesn't want as in "I'm fine with dying if I get cancer" or "I can't afford to cover myself against cancer so I just won't and hope that I don't get it". Neither of them seem remotely appealing. I think that there were a few people in the second predicament and that Obamacare forced them to get coverage anyway (which is certainly clumsy no doubt). The kneejerk reaction from insurance companies (who are all hell-spawn as far as I'm concerned since the number one thing that insurance companies will do is to take your money but avoid covering you when you need it) is to raise rates across the board, as a way to have leverage against obamacare. I don't find it easy to position myself against obamacare, to me the assholes here are the insurance companies. It's not that people don't want healthcare. The problem is that not everyone wants to pay for healthcare. In a private system, it is incumbent upon the individual to protect himself. I personally place a premium on insurance similar protections and hedges against risk, so I have always been well-covered. Not everyone thinks like me, though.
yeah fair enough
but it's still more affordable to get coverage if you're well off than if you aren't. i imagine that poorer people just can't have the luxury of being well covered, they go with basic coverage which doesn't help them with very serious health issues
so they're basically fucked. poverty is an issue in the USA
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On November 10 2016 01:11 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 01:08 ACrow wrote:On November 10 2016 01:05 xDaunt wrote:On November 10 2016 00:58 Logo wrote:3) Abortion rights aren't going anywhere. Gay rights aren't going anywhere. You've won on these issues. Even if Trump gets capped and Pence takes over, there's nothing that the president can do to unwind the progress that's been made. Virtually no judge that Trump may appoint will overturn the precedents that have been set. Judges are egotistical assholes, and they'd rather not tarnish their reputations (see John Roberts). And the American people don't have the appetite for a protracted cultural war on these issues right now. Trump didn't even run on those issues. There are bigger fish to fry. Which takes me to my last point.... This one seems incorrect (the abortion part)? There's already a bunch of states chipping away at abortion rights by imposing overly strict regulations on where abortions can be performed or allowing shady centers to operate that appear to be about family planning or offer abortions but then really hammer anti-abortion messages into you. See: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/06/01/14-states-have-passed-laws-making-it-harder-to-get-an-abortion-already-this-year/ among others. Anyone can get an abortion in this country. Unless you're an advocate for late term abortions, the battle is being fought at the margins over convenience. This is a non-issue that is blown out of proportion by the left. That is so egotistical it is disgusting. "I'm male, so I'm not affected, so I don't care". Jerk. Keep your nose out of women's affairs and let them decide you control freak. Come on that's not what he said ... I truly wonder : is the vote Trump some kind of millenarism ? Did US citizens showed their desire for the end of the world ? I've had some tough discussion with students this morning. The media attacked their brains so much they actually thought Trump meant WW3.
Saw a poll mentioned on No Such Thing as the News a few weeks ago that said a third of Trump's supporters believed his presidency would lead to race riots and the US defaulting on its debt. And a fifth of his supporters said he will start a nuclear war. But then again, maybe more of them thought Hillary would do that as well.
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On November 10 2016 01:21 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 01:16 xDaunt wrote:On November 10 2016 01:11 WhiteDog wrote:On November 10 2016 01:08 ACrow wrote:On November 10 2016 01:05 xDaunt wrote:On November 10 2016 00:58 Logo wrote:3) Abortion rights aren't going anywhere. Gay rights aren't going anywhere. You've won on these issues. Even if Trump gets capped and Pence takes over, there's nothing that the president can do to unwind the progress that's been made. Virtually no judge that Trump may appoint will overturn the precedents that have been set. Judges are egotistical assholes, and they'd rather not tarnish their reputations (see John Roberts). And the American people don't have the appetite for a protracted cultural war on these issues right now. Trump didn't even run on those issues. There are bigger fish to fry. Which takes me to my last point.... This one seems incorrect (the abortion part)? There's already a bunch of states chipping away at abortion rights by imposing overly strict regulations on where abortions can be performed or allowing shady centers to operate that appear to be about family planning or offer abortions but then really hammer anti-abortion messages into you. See: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/06/01/14-states-have-passed-laws-making-it-harder-to-get-an-abortion-already-this-year/ among others. Anyone can get an abortion in this country. Unless you're an advocate for late term abortions, the battle is being fought at the margins over convenience. This is a non-issue that is blown out of proportion by the left. That is so egotistical it is disgusting. "I'm male, so I'm not affected, so I don't care". Jerk. Keep your nose out of women's affairs and let them decide you control freak. Come on that's not what he said ... I truly wonder : is the vote Trump some kind of millenarism ? Did US citizens showed their desire for the end of the world ?I've had some tough discussion with students this morning. The media attacked their brains so much they actually thought Trump meant WW3. Like I've said for a long time (and you have said the same), what exactly did Trump supporters have to lose? What was their alternative? They've been maligned culturally for so long, that a populist revolt was inevitable. I think most people probably thought that type of revolt would be more palatable. Or more for "the people" and not just the white working class.
It's the white working class that was specifically maligned, though. For how long have they been neglected? For how long have they been forced to take a back seat to the interests of other minority groups? For how long should they endure being thought of as the deplorables?
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On November 10 2016 01:18 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 01:15 Incognoto wrote:On November 10 2016 01:02 xDaunt wrote:On November 10 2016 00:57 Incognoto wrote:On November 10 2016 00:53 xDaunt wrote:
For all of you liberals standing at the edge of the cliff, take some solace in the following:
1) American institutions are tremendously resilient. The impact that Trump will have without some degree of bipartisan support won't be that big.
2) Yes, Obamacare is done. Good riddance to it. It's clearly a steaming pile of shit and an anchor on the Democrats. But here's the silver lining: I give it a better than even chance that Trump advocates for some sort of government option (think Medicare for all) as the replacement.
3) Abortion rights aren't going anywhere. Gay rights aren't going anywhere. You've won on these issues. Even if Trump gets capped and Pence takes over, there's nothing that the president can do to unwind the progress that's been made. Virtually no judge that Trump may appoint will overturn the precedents that have been set. Judges are egotistical assholes, and they'd rather not tarnish their reputations (see John Roberts). And the American people don't have the appetite for a protracted cultural war on these issues right now. Trump didn't even run on those issues. There are bigger fish to fry. Which takes me to my last point....
4) Trump is a moderate at heart, and I fully expect him to govern like a moderate. Pay attention to his speech from last night. Notice how he didn't mention the wall? Or even the immigration issue at all? I know everyone is all wound up thanks to the media's relentless negative portrayal of him over the past six months, but I think that there is a real danger that Trump's supporters will be the ones who find themselves supremely disappointed over the next two-four years. Obamacare might be bad (because it's expensive? as far as I read that's the only issue with it?) but it did some very important things in regards to insurance companies no longer being able to fuck over people with health issues. You can't ethically allow health insurance companies to refuse social protection to people because they have health issues. It's fucking stupid Obamacare is bad because it has 1) gutted the insurance coverage of those who had it and were happy with it (a lot of people), 2) it made that coverage more expensive, 3) and it forced expensive coverage on a lot of people who don't even want it. Yes, Obamacare does provide coverage to people with preexisting coverage, but the cost to everyone is way too high. Obamacare is clearly the wrong solution. OK that makes sense to me but I want to ask a few more questions before I'm truly satisfied. First off, who doesn't want health care? Doesn't want as in "I'm fine with dying if I get cancer" or "I can't afford to cover myself against cancer so I just won't and hope that I don't get it". Neither of them seem remotely appealing. I think that there were a few people in the second predicament and that Obamacare forced them to get coverage anyway (which is certainly clumsy no doubt). The kneejerk reaction from insurance companies (who are all hell-spawn as far as I'm concerned since the number one thing that insurance companies will do is to take your money but avoid covering you when you need it) is to raise rates across the board, as a way to have leverage against obamacare. I don't find it easy to position myself against obamacare, to me the assholes here are the insurance companies. It's not that people don't want healthcare. The problem is that not everyone wants to pay for healthcare. In a private system, it is incumbent upon the individual to protect himself. I personally place a premium on insurance similar protections and hedges against risk, so I have always been well-covered. Not everyone thinks like me, though.
How is it expensive when all the countries with healthcare spend less than the US?
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On November 10 2016 01:15 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 01:12 Elizar wrote:On November 10 2016 00:55 VayneAuthority wrote:On November 10 2016 00:45 Ektor Baboden wrote:On November 10 2016 00:33 VayneAuthority wrote:
Democrats lost independents like me when they continued to focus on anything except their actual candidate. The smugness and constant name-calling got to an absurd point. Calling everyone that didn't support Clinton with you racist and sexist...Democrats were their own worst enemy this election.
Proof is in the pudding, Obama voters like myself decided this election.
That's right, so many voters who are not racist or sexist, but decided that to better represent them, it would be a good idea to elect a president that has made several blatantly racist and sexist remarks. What a funny world we live in. When people in Europe elected fascist candidates to bring change at all costs, it didn't go that well. I can only hope Trump was making those senseless remarks just to get elected, and will actually be smart from now on. In any case I agree that Hillary was not the right candidate, but that's too easy to say now. (I am an immigrant and cannot vote.) Again, it's really not about the candidates. People are tired of politics as usual. I don't like Trump by any stretch, and would have voted sanders if its was that matchup. But in the end I wasn't going to comply and just take it in the ass again for 4 years. My taxes are the highest they have ever been and my state was going to be one of the biggest refugee takers which I absolutely did not want, they have already shown they are terrible at vetting. So in the end those two things are what actually made me vote. More importantly, a 12 time democrat incumbent got kicked out in my state by a black businessman in a county with a shitload of your classic racist trump supporters. If that doesn't tell you what happened, then I dunno. Hahahaa ... Sorry that I find that funny. But high taxes and lots of refugees? Try living in Germany  I actually think some Trump voters saw what was going on in Europe with the refugee crisis and it was one of the factors for them voting the way they did.
Me too. And I really can´t blame the Trump voters for that. In fact, I´m scared what will happen in Europe in the future. Merkel´s policy already made the Brexit possible (at least it contributed).
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On November 10 2016 01:15 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 01:02 xDaunt wrote:On November 10 2016 00:57 Incognoto wrote:On November 10 2016 00:53 xDaunt wrote:
For all of you liberals standing at the edge of the cliff, take some solace in the following:
1) American institutions are tremendously resilient. The impact that Trump will have without some degree of bipartisan support won't be that big.
2) Yes, Obamacare is done. Good riddance to it. It's clearly a steaming pile of shit and an anchor on the Democrats. But here's the silver lining: I give it a better than even chance that Trump advocates for some sort of government option (think Medicare for all) as the replacement.
3) Abortion rights aren't going anywhere. Gay rights aren't going anywhere. You've won on these issues. Even if Trump gets capped and Pence takes over, there's nothing that the president can do to unwind the progress that's been made. Virtually no judge that Trump may appoint will overturn the precedents that have been set. Judges are egotistical assholes, and they'd rather not tarnish their reputations (see John Roberts). And the American people don't have the appetite for a protracted cultural war on these issues right now. Trump didn't even run on those issues. There are bigger fish to fry. Which takes me to my last point....
4) Trump is a moderate at heart, and I fully expect him to govern like a moderate. Pay attention to his speech from last night. Notice how he didn't mention the wall? Or even the immigration issue at all? I know everyone is all wound up thanks to the media's relentless negative portrayal of him over the past six months, but I think that there is a real danger that Trump's supporters will be the ones who find themselves supremely disappointed over the next two-four years. Obamacare might be bad (because it's expensive? as far as I read that's the only issue with it?) but it did some very important things in regards to insurance companies no longer being able to fuck over people with health issues. You can't ethically allow health insurance companies to refuse social protection to people because they have health issues. It's fucking stupid Obamacare is bad because it has 1) gutted the insurance coverage of those who had it and were happy with it (a lot of people), 2) it made that coverage more expensive, 3) and it forced expensive coverage on a lot of people who don't even want it. Yes, Obamacare does provide coverage to people with preexisting coverage, but the cost to everyone is way too high. Obamacare is clearly the wrong solution. OK that makes sense to me but I want to ask a few more questions before I'm truly satisfied. First off, who doesn't want health care? Doesn't want as in "I'm fine with dying if I get cancer" or "I can't afford to cover myself against cancer so I just won't and hope that I don't get it". Neither of them seem remotely appealing. I think that there were a few people in the second predicament and that Obamacare forced them to get coverage anyway (which is certainly clumsy no doubt). The kneejerk reaction from insurance companies (who are all hell-spawn as far as I'm concerned since the number one thing that insurance companies will do is to take your money but avoid covering you when you need it) is to raise rates across the board, as a way to have leverage against obamacare. I don't find it easy to position myself against obamacare, to me the assholes here are the insurance companies. Edit: read another post of yours, I think I see your position more clearly now
We have had several Americans in this thread talk about how they have some money saved to cover their healthcare bills and that they don't want to pay a monthly cost because 'what are the odds they actually need healthcare'.
They are utterly blind to the fact that even a simple broken leg will completely drain their money reserve and leave them in debt and anything more serious then that will ruin the rest of their life.
All while society keeps footing their bills because we don't let people die in the streets over being dumb.
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On November 10 2016 01:24 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 01:18 xDaunt wrote:On November 10 2016 01:15 Incognoto wrote:On November 10 2016 01:02 xDaunt wrote:On November 10 2016 00:57 Incognoto wrote:On November 10 2016 00:53 xDaunt wrote:
For all of you liberals standing at the edge of the cliff, take some solace in the following:
1) American institutions are tremendously resilient. The impact that Trump will have without some degree of bipartisan support won't be that big.
2) Yes, Obamacare is done. Good riddance to it. It's clearly a steaming pile of shit and an anchor on the Democrats. But here's the silver lining: I give it a better than even chance that Trump advocates for some sort of government option (think Medicare for all) as the replacement.
3) Abortion rights aren't going anywhere. Gay rights aren't going anywhere. You've won on these issues. Even if Trump gets capped and Pence takes over, there's nothing that the president can do to unwind the progress that's been made. Virtually no judge that Trump may appoint will overturn the precedents that have been set. Judges are egotistical assholes, and they'd rather not tarnish their reputations (see John Roberts). And the American people don't have the appetite for a protracted cultural war on these issues right now. Trump didn't even run on those issues. There are bigger fish to fry. Which takes me to my last point....
4) Trump is a moderate at heart, and I fully expect him to govern like a moderate. Pay attention to his speech from last night. Notice how he didn't mention the wall? Or even the immigration issue at all? I know everyone is all wound up thanks to the media's relentless negative portrayal of him over the past six months, but I think that there is a real danger that Trump's supporters will be the ones who find themselves supremely disappointed over the next two-four years. Obamacare might be bad (because it's expensive? as far as I read that's the only issue with it?) but it did some very important things in regards to insurance companies no longer being able to fuck over people with health issues. You can't ethically allow health insurance companies to refuse social protection to people because they have health issues. It's fucking stupid Obamacare is bad because it has 1) gutted the insurance coverage of those who had it and were happy with it (a lot of people), 2) it made that coverage more expensive, 3) and it forced expensive coverage on a lot of people who don't even want it. Yes, Obamacare does provide coverage to people with preexisting coverage, but the cost to everyone is way too high. Obamacare is clearly the wrong solution. OK that makes sense to me but I want to ask a few more questions before I'm truly satisfied. First off, who doesn't want health care? Doesn't want as in "I'm fine with dying if I get cancer" or "I can't afford to cover myself against cancer so I just won't and hope that I don't get it". Neither of them seem remotely appealing. I think that there were a few people in the second predicament and that Obamacare forced them to get coverage anyway (which is certainly clumsy no doubt). The kneejerk reaction from insurance companies (who are all hell-spawn as far as I'm concerned since the number one thing that insurance companies will do is to take your money but avoid covering you when you need it) is to raise rates across the board, as a way to have leverage against obamacare. I don't find it easy to position myself against obamacare, to me the assholes here are the insurance companies. It's not that people don't want healthcare. The problem is that not everyone wants to pay for healthcare. In a private system, it is incumbent upon the individual to protect himself. I personally place a premium on insurance similar protections and hedges against risk, so I have always been well-covered. Not everyone thinks like me, though. How is it expensive when all the countries with healthcare spend less than the US?
We don't have the same types of price controls, rationing, and other regulations that put downward pressures on prices that other systems have. However, those who had coverage before Obamacare had immaculate coverage.
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On November 10 2016 01:23 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 01:21 Logo wrote:On November 10 2016 01:16 xDaunt wrote:On November 10 2016 01:11 WhiteDog wrote:On November 10 2016 01:08 ACrow wrote:On November 10 2016 01:05 xDaunt wrote:On November 10 2016 00:58 Logo wrote:3) Abortion rights aren't going anywhere. Gay rights aren't going anywhere. You've won on these issues. Even if Trump gets capped and Pence takes over, there's nothing that the president can do to unwind the progress that's been made. Virtually no judge that Trump may appoint will overturn the precedents that have been set. Judges are egotistical assholes, and they'd rather not tarnish their reputations (see John Roberts). And the American people don't have the appetite for a protracted cultural war on these issues right now. Trump didn't even run on those issues. There are bigger fish to fry. Which takes me to my last point.... This one seems incorrect (the abortion part)? There's already a bunch of states chipping away at abortion rights by imposing overly strict regulations on where abortions can be performed or allowing shady centers to operate that appear to be about family planning or offer abortions but then really hammer anti-abortion messages into you. See: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/06/01/14-states-have-passed-laws-making-it-harder-to-get-an-abortion-already-this-year/ among others. Anyone can get an abortion in this country. Unless you're an advocate for late term abortions, the battle is being fought at the margins over convenience. This is a non-issue that is blown out of proportion by the left. That is so egotistical it is disgusting. "I'm male, so I'm not affected, so I don't care". Jerk. Keep your nose out of women's affairs and let them decide you control freak. Come on that's not what he said ... I truly wonder : is the vote Trump some kind of millenarism ? Did US citizens showed their desire for the end of the world ?I've had some tough discussion with students this morning. The media attacked their brains so much they actually thought Trump meant WW3. Like I've said for a long time (and you have said the same), what exactly did Trump supporters have to lose? What was their alternative? They've been maligned culturally for so long, that a populist revolt was inevitable. I think most people probably thought that type of revolt would be more palatable. Or more for "the people" and not just the white working class. It's the white working class that was specifically maligned, though. For how long have they been neglected? For how long have they been forced to take a back seat to the interests of other minority groups? For how long should they endure being thought of as the deplorables?
Yes yes certainly, but that wouldn't necessarily mean to imply that they would have to be pitted so starkly against other groups. You should be able to appeal to white working class with something more productive than a message of every other demographic sucks. If not then the deplorable tag really would be well earned.
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He did it guys! Best day of my life
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On November 10 2016 01:25 Gorsameth wrote:
They are utterly blind to the fact that even a simple broken leg will completely drain their money reserve and leave them in debt and anything more serious then that will ruin the rest of their life.
I'm well aware that I can be financially wiped out by any significant illness. That would be the case even if I weren't paying oversized health insurance premiums.
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On November 10 2016 01:18 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 01:15 Incognoto wrote:On November 10 2016 01:02 xDaunt wrote:On November 10 2016 00:57 Incognoto wrote:On November 10 2016 00:53 xDaunt wrote:
For all of you liberals standing at the edge of the cliff, take some solace in the following:
1) American institutions are tremendously resilient. The impact that Trump will have without some degree of bipartisan support won't be that big.
2) Yes, Obamacare is done. Good riddance to it. It's clearly a steaming pile of shit and an anchor on the Democrats. But here's the silver lining: I give it a better than even chance that Trump advocates for some sort of government option (think Medicare for all) as the replacement.
3) Abortion rights aren't going anywhere. Gay rights aren't going anywhere. You've won on these issues. Even if Trump gets capped and Pence takes over, there's nothing that the president can do to unwind the progress that's been made. Virtually no judge that Trump may appoint will overturn the precedents that have been set. Judges are egotistical assholes, and they'd rather not tarnish their reputations (see John Roberts). And the American people don't have the appetite for a protracted cultural war on these issues right now. Trump didn't even run on those issues. There are bigger fish to fry. Which takes me to my last point....
4) Trump is a moderate at heart, and I fully expect him to govern like a moderate. Pay attention to his speech from last night. Notice how he didn't mention the wall? Or even the immigration issue at all? I know everyone is all wound up thanks to the media's relentless negative portrayal of him over the past six months, but I think that there is a real danger that Trump's supporters will be the ones who find themselves supremely disappointed over the next two-four years. Obamacare might be bad (because it's expensive? as far as I read that's the only issue with it?) but it did some very important things in regards to insurance companies no longer being able to fuck over people with health issues. You can't ethically allow health insurance companies to refuse social protection to people because they have health issues. It's fucking stupid Obamacare is bad because it has 1) gutted the insurance coverage of those who had it and were happy with it (a lot of people), 2) it made that coverage more expensive, 3) and it forced expensive coverage on a lot of people who don't even want it. Yes, Obamacare does provide coverage to people with preexisting coverage, but the cost to everyone is way too high. Obamacare is clearly the wrong solution. OK that makes sense to me but I want to ask a few more questions before I'm truly satisfied. First off, who doesn't want health care? Doesn't want as in "I'm fine with dying if I get cancer" or "I can't afford to cover myself against cancer so I just won't and hope that I don't get it". Neither of them seem remotely appealing. I think that there were a few people in the second predicament and that Obamacare forced them to get coverage anyway (which is certainly clumsy no doubt). The kneejerk reaction from insurance companies (who are all hell-spawn as far as I'm concerned since the number one thing that insurance companies will do is to take your money but avoid covering you when you need it) is to raise rates across the board, as a way to have leverage against obamacare. I don't find it easy to position myself against obamacare, to me the assholes here are the insurance companies. It's not that people don't want healthcare. The problem is that not everyone wants to pay for healthcare. In a private system, it is incumbent upon the individual to protect himself. I personally place a premium on insurance similar protections and hedges against risk, so I have always been well-covered. Not everyone thinks like me, though.
You're wrong. People will pay reasonable costs for healthcare, but unfortunately, the healthcare system in America is a racket of the highest order. America is the only place where you are hit with $30,000 bill for a normal childbirth - no c-section, no epidural and no special procedures and insurance is just as expensive for people on hourly wage. I know of very few countries where people have to pay their median per-capita income to get a normal child birth. Its an extortion is what it is.
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EPT
