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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On November 10 2016 00:49 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 00:45 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On November 10 2016 00:40 zatic wrote:On November 10 2016 00:36 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
What does Trump means in terms of foreigner policy? Cause u know, we got some nothern empire on borders and that's a bit scary. Nobody's got a fucking clue, and that's the problem. that's...disturbing, hope Merkel knows at least what to do Yeah, good thing we have a leader with a track record of standing up to authoritarian dickheads! *sarcasm* For real though, this is chance for Merkel to lead and defend Western values, against the US if necessary. I personally doubt she has it in her though.
As a fellow German, I agree with this 
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
the biggest influence on trump policy is not what trump believes. it's the gop congress and various industry thinktanks etc.
that he doesn't believe in any policies all that strongly means he can be bought or simply coopted. the militarized policy machine that is the gop congress will just be let loose and do their thing. you can get a preview by looking at robert mercer, funder of both trump and congressional tea party organizations.
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On November 10 2016 01:04 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 01:02 Acrofales wrote:
Brass band into metal... classic transition. DJs do it all the time.
Predictions? I'm now expecting Hillary to walk onto the stage in a Pepe suit. It's some generic pop music on the ABC stream. What you're talking about is what that random youtuber is playing.
Oh. Ok. That makes a lot more sense. I just assumed the banner would have the official stream, but okay, USTV's choice of music is pretty terrible, but at least it's not Hillary. Lol.
In fact, why not put the ABC stream in the banner? http://abcnews.go.com/ works just fine from Spain (so presumably it's fine worldwide).
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Obamacare also represents age-class warfare, with young people overpaying to subsidize old people's health care.
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On November 10 2016 01:05 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 00:58 Logo wrote:3) Abortion rights aren't going anywhere. Gay rights aren't going anywhere. You've won on these issues. Even if Trump gets capped and Pence takes over, there's nothing that the president can do to unwind the progress that's been made. Virtually no judge that Trump may appoint will overturn the precedents that have been set. Judges are egotistical assholes, and they'd rather not tarnish their reputations (see John Roberts). And the American people don't have the appetite for a protracted cultural war on these issues right now. Trump didn't even run on those issues. There are bigger fish to fry. Which takes me to my last point.... This one seems incorrect (the abortion part)? There's already a bunch of states chipping away at abortion rights by imposing overly strict regulations on where abortions can be performed or allowing shady centers to operate that appear to be about family planning or offer abortions but then really hammer anti-abortion messages into you. See: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/06/01/14-states-have-passed-laws-making-it-harder-to-get-an-abortion-already-this-year/ among others. Anyone can get an abortion in this country. Unless you're an advocate for late term abortions, the battle is being fought at the margins over convenience. This is a non-issue that is blown out of proportion by the left.
Whether or not it is being overblown is irrelevant to the point that it is happening and without resistance and a larger republican control of the government could continue to happen.
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On November 10 2016 01:05 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 00:58 Logo wrote:3) Abortion rights aren't going anywhere. Gay rights aren't going anywhere. You've won on these issues. Even if Trump gets capped and Pence takes over, there's nothing that the president can do to unwind the progress that's been made. Virtually no judge that Trump may appoint will overturn the precedents that have been set. Judges are egotistical assholes, and they'd rather not tarnish their reputations (see John Roberts). And the American people don't have the appetite for a protracted cultural war on these issues right now. Trump didn't even run on those issues. There are bigger fish to fry. Which takes me to my last point.... This one seems incorrect (the abortion part)? There's already a bunch of states chipping away at abortion rights by imposing overly strict regulations on where abortions can be performed or allowing shady centers to operate that appear to be about family planning or offer abortions but then really hammer anti-abortion messages into you. See: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/06/01/14-states-have-passed-laws-making-it-harder-to-get-an-abortion-already-this-year/ among others. Anyone can get an abortion in this country. Unless you're an advocate for late term abortions, the battle is being fought at the margins over convenience. This is a non-issue that is blown out of proportion by the left.
That is so egotistical it is disgusting. "I'm male, so I'm not affected, so I don't care". Jerk. Keep your nose out of women's affairs and let them decide you control freak.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On November 10 2016 01:02 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 00:57 Incognoto wrote:On November 10 2016 00:53 xDaunt wrote:
For all of you liberals standing at the edge of the cliff, take some solace in the following:
1) American institutions are tremendously resilient. The impact that Trump will have without some degree of bipartisan support won't be that big.
2) Yes, Obamacare is done. Good riddance to it. It's clearly a steaming pile of shit and an anchor on the Democrats. But here's the silver lining: I give it a better than even chance that Trump advocates for some sort of government option (think Medicare for all) as the replacement.
3) Abortion rights aren't going anywhere. Gay rights aren't going anywhere. You've won on these issues. Even if Trump gets capped and Pence takes over, there's nothing that the president can do to unwind the progress that's been made. Virtually no judge that Trump may appoint will overturn the precedents that have been set. Judges are egotistical assholes, and they'd rather not tarnish their reputations (see John Roberts). And the American people don't have the appetite for a protracted cultural war on these issues right now. Trump didn't even run on those issues. There are bigger fish to fry. Which takes me to my last point....
4) Trump is a moderate at heart, and I fully expect him to govern like a moderate. Pay attention to his speech from last night. Notice how he didn't mention the wall? Or even the immigration issue at all? I know everyone is all wound up thanks to the media's relentless negative portrayal of him over the past six months, but I think that there is a real danger that Trump's supporters will be the ones who find themselves supremely disappointed over the next two-four years. Obamacare might be bad (because it's expensive? as far as I read that's the only issue with it?) but it did some very important things in regards to insurance companies no longer being able to fuck over people with health issues. You can't ethically allow health insurance companies to refuse social protection to people because they have health issues. It's fucking stupid Obamacare is bad because it has 1) gutted the insurance coverage of those who had it and were happy with it (a lot of people), 2) it made that coverage more expensive, 3) and it forced expensive coverage on a lot of people who don't even want it. Yes, Obamacare does provide coverage to people with preexisting coverage, but the cost to everyone is way too high. Obamacare is clearly the wrong solution.
1) Many of those plans were useless because the insurer could kick you out if you ever actually got ill
2) True
3) No one can afford an actual serious injury/illness. If your not insured society pays the bill
The problem with the ACA was price and that was because the US allows insurers to be greedy fucks who price gouge their customers. Healthcare doesn't have to be so expensive.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On November 10 2016 01:09 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 01:02 xDaunt wrote:On November 10 2016 00:57 Incognoto wrote:On November 10 2016 00:53 xDaunt wrote:
For all of you liberals standing at the edge of the cliff, take some solace in the following:
1) American institutions are tremendously resilient. The impact that Trump will have without some degree of bipartisan support won't be that big.
2) Yes, Obamacare is done. Good riddance to it. It's clearly a steaming pile of shit and an anchor on the Democrats. But here's the silver lining: I give it a better than even chance that Trump advocates for some sort of government option (think Medicare for all) as the replacement.
3) Abortion rights aren't going anywhere. Gay rights aren't going anywhere. You've won on these issues. Even if Trump gets capped and Pence takes over, there's nothing that the president can do to unwind the progress that's been made. Virtually no judge that Trump may appoint will overturn the precedents that have been set. Judges are egotistical assholes, and they'd rather not tarnish their reputations (see John Roberts). And the American people don't have the appetite for a protracted cultural war on these issues right now. Trump didn't even run on those issues. There are bigger fish to fry. Which takes me to my last point....
4) Trump is a moderate at heart, and I fully expect him to govern like a moderate. Pay attention to his speech from last night. Notice how he didn't mention the wall? Or even the immigration issue at all? I know everyone is all wound up thanks to the media's relentless negative portrayal of him over the past six months, but I think that there is a real danger that Trump's supporters will be the ones who find themselves supremely disappointed over the next two-four years. Obamacare might be bad (because it's expensive? as far as I read that's the only issue with it?) but it did some very important things in regards to insurance companies no longer being able to fuck over people with health issues. You can't ethically allow health insurance companies to refuse social protection to people because they have health issues. It's fucking stupid Obamacare is bad because it has 1) gutted the insurance coverage of those who had it and were happy with it (a lot of people), 2) it made that coverage more expensive, 3) and it forced expensive coverage on a lot of people who don't even want it. Yes, Obamacare does provide coverage to people with preexisting coverage, but the cost to everyone is way too high. Obamacare is clearly the wrong solution. 1) Many of those plans were useless because the insurer could kick you out if you ever actually got ill 2) True 3) No one can afford an actual serious injury/illness. If your not insured society pays the bill The problem with the ACA was price and that was because the US allows insurers to be greedy fucks who price gouge their customers. Healthcare doesn't have to be so expensive.
insurers and providers/pharma, mostly providers and pharma
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On November 10 2016 01:08 ACrow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 01:05 xDaunt wrote:On November 10 2016 00:58 Logo wrote:3) Abortion rights aren't going anywhere. Gay rights aren't going anywhere. You've won on these issues. Even if Trump gets capped and Pence takes over, there's nothing that the president can do to unwind the progress that's been made. Virtually no judge that Trump may appoint will overturn the precedents that have been set. Judges are egotistical assholes, and they'd rather not tarnish their reputations (see John Roberts). And the American people don't have the appetite for a protracted cultural war on these issues right now. Trump didn't even run on those issues. There are bigger fish to fry. Which takes me to my last point.... This one seems incorrect (the abortion part)? There's already a bunch of states chipping away at abortion rights by imposing overly strict regulations on where abortions can be performed or allowing shady centers to operate that appear to be about family planning or offer abortions but then really hammer anti-abortion messages into you. See: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/06/01/14-states-have-passed-laws-making-it-harder-to-get-an-abortion-already-this-year/ among others. Anyone can get an abortion in this country. Unless you're an advocate for late term abortions, the battle is being fought at the margins over convenience. This is a non-issue that is blown out of proportion by the left. That is so egotistical it is disgusting. "I'm male, so I'm not affected, so I don't care". Jerk. Keep your nose out of women's affairs and let them decide you control freak.
Come on that's not what he said ...
I truly wonder : is the vote Trump some kind of millenarism ? Did US citizens showed their desire for the end of the world ?
I've had some tough discussion with students this morning. The media attacked their brains so much they actually thought Trump meant WW3.
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On November 10 2016 01:10 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 01:09 Gorsameth wrote:On November 10 2016 01:02 xDaunt wrote:On November 10 2016 00:57 Incognoto wrote:On November 10 2016 00:53 xDaunt wrote:
For all of you liberals standing at the edge of the cliff, take some solace in the following:
1) American institutions are tremendously resilient. The impact that Trump will have without some degree of bipartisan support won't be that big.
2) Yes, Obamacare is done. Good riddance to it. It's clearly a steaming pile of shit and an anchor on the Democrats. But here's the silver lining: I give it a better than even chance that Trump advocates for some sort of government option (think Medicare for all) as the replacement.
3) Abortion rights aren't going anywhere. Gay rights aren't going anywhere. You've won on these issues. Even if Trump gets capped and Pence takes over, there's nothing that the president can do to unwind the progress that's been made. Virtually no judge that Trump may appoint will overturn the precedents that have been set. Judges are egotistical assholes, and they'd rather not tarnish their reputations (see John Roberts). And the American people don't have the appetite for a protracted cultural war on these issues right now. Trump didn't even run on those issues. There are bigger fish to fry. Which takes me to my last point....
4) Trump is a moderate at heart, and I fully expect him to govern like a moderate. Pay attention to his speech from last night. Notice how he didn't mention the wall? Or even the immigration issue at all? I know everyone is all wound up thanks to the media's relentless negative portrayal of him over the past six months, but I think that there is a real danger that Trump's supporters will be the ones who find themselves supremely disappointed over the next two-four years. Obamacare might be bad (because it's expensive? as far as I read that's the only issue with it?) but it did some very important things in regards to insurance companies no longer being able to fuck over people with health issues. You can't ethically allow health insurance companies to refuse social protection to people because they have health issues. It's fucking stupid Obamacare is bad because it has 1) gutted the insurance coverage of those who had it and were happy with it (a lot of people), 2) it made that coverage more expensive, 3) and it forced expensive coverage on a lot of people who don't even want it. Yes, Obamacare does provide coverage to people with preexisting coverage, but the cost to everyone is way too high. Obamacare is clearly the wrong solution. 1) Many of those plans were useless because the insurer could kick you out if you ever actually got ill 2) True 3) No one can afford an actual serious injury/illness. If your not insured society pays the bill The problem with the ACA was price and that was because the US allows insurers to be greedy fucks who price gouge their customers. Healthcare doesn't have to be so expensive. insurers and providers/pharma, mostly providers and pharma
The insurance companies are the ones with the power to force down the price. Consumers cannot do this because they have no power over their health.
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On November 10 2016 00:55 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 00:45 Ektor Baboden wrote:On November 10 2016 00:33 VayneAuthority wrote:
Democrats lost independents like me when they continued to focus on anything except their actual candidate. The smugness and constant name-calling got to an absurd point. Calling everyone that didn't support Clinton with you racist and sexist...Democrats were their own worst enemy this election.
Proof is in the pudding, Obama voters like myself decided this election.
That's right, so many voters who are not racist or sexist, but decided that to better represent them, it would be a good idea to elect a president that has made several blatantly racist and sexist remarks. What a funny world we live in. When people in Europe elected fascist candidates to bring change at all costs, it didn't go that well. I can only hope Trump was making those senseless remarks just to get elected, and will actually be smart from now on. In any case I agree that Hillary was not the right candidate, but that's too easy to say now. (I am an immigrant and cannot vote.) Again, it's really not about the candidates. People are tired of politics as usual. I don't like Trump by any stretch, and would have voted sanders if its was that matchup. But in the end I wasn't going to comply and just take it in the ass again for 4 years. My taxes are the highest they have ever been and my state was going to be one of the biggest refugee takers which I absolutely did not want, they have already shown they are terrible at vetting. So in the end those two things are what actually made me vote. More importantly, a 12 time democrat incumbent got kicked out in my state by a black businessman in a county with a shitload of your classic racist trump supporters. If that doesn't tell you what happened, then I dunno.
Hahahaa ... Sorry that I find that funny. But high taxes and lots of refugees? Try living in Germany 
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On November 10 2016 01:09 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 01:02 xDaunt wrote:On November 10 2016 00:57 Incognoto wrote:On November 10 2016 00:53 xDaunt wrote:
For all of you liberals standing at the edge of the cliff, take some solace in the following:
1) American institutions are tremendously resilient. The impact that Trump will have without some degree of bipartisan support won't be that big.
2) Yes, Obamacare is done. Good riddance to it. It's clearly a steaming pile of shit and an anchor on the Democrats. But here's the silver lining: I give it a better than even chance that Trump advocates for some sort of government option (think Medicare for all) as the replacement.
3) Abortion rights aren't going anywhere. Gay rights aren't going anywhere. You've won on these issues. Even if Trump gets capped and Pence takes over, there's nothing that the president can do to unwind the progress that's been made. Virtually no judge that Trump may appoint will overturn the precedents that have been set. Judges are egotistical assholes, and they'd rather not tarnish their reputations (see John Roberts). And the American people don't have the appetite for a protracted cultural war on these issues right now. Trump didn't even run on those issues. There are bigger fish to fry. Which takes me to my last point....
4) Trump is a moderate at heart, and I fully expect him to govern like a moderate. Pay attention to his speech from last night. Notice how he didn't mention the wall? Or even the immigration issue at all? I know everyone is all wound up thanks to the media's relentless negative portrayal of him over the past six months, but I think that there is a real danger that Trump's supporters will be the ones who find themselves supremely disappointed over the next two-four years. Obamacare might be bad (because it's expensive? as far as I read that's the only issue with it?) but it did some very important things in regards to insurance companies no longer being able to fuck over people with health issues. You can't ethically allow health insurance companies to refuse social protection to people because they have health issues. It's fucking stupid Obamacare is bad because it has 1) gutted the insurance coverage of those who had it and were happy with it (a lot of people), 2) it made that coverage more expensive, 3) and it forced expensive coverage on a lot of people who don't even want it. Yes, Obamacare does provide coverage to people with preexisting coverage, but the cost to everyone is way too high. Obamacare is clearly the wrong solution. 1) Many of those plans were useless because the insurer could kick you out if you ever actually got ill 2) True 3) No one can afford an actual serious injury/illness. If your not insured society pays the bill The problem with the ACA was price and that was because the US allows insurers to be greedy fucks who price gouge their customers. Healthcare doesn't have to be so expensive.
Obamacare didn't even address the root problems of the expense of healthcare in the US. At best, Obamacare is a crude fix to providing universal coverage for everyone (which I agree is necessary). And I think you're grossly overstating the problem with the bad insurance plans. Yes, they were out there (and still are), but the difference now is that people are being priced into those plans because they can't get good ones at affordable rates. So who is the joke really on?
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On November 10 2016 01:11 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 01:10 oneofthem wrote:On November 10 2016 01:09 Gorsameth wrote:On November 10 2016 01:02 xDaunt wrote:On November 10 2016 00:57 Incognoto wrote:On November 10 2016 00:53 xDaunt wrote:
For all of you liberals standing at the edge of the cliff, take some solace in the following:
1) American institutions are tremendously resilient. The impact that Trump will have without some degree of bipartisan support won't be that big.
2) Yes, Obamacare is done. Good riddance to it. It's clearly a steaming pile of shit and an anchor on the Democrats. But here's the silver lining: I give it a better than even chance that Trump advocates for some sort of government option (think Medicare for all) as the replacement.
3) Abortion rights aren't going anywhere. Gay rights aren't going anywhere. You've won on these issues. Even if Trump gets capped and Pence takes over, there's nothing that the president can do to unwind the progress that's been made. Virtually no judge that Trump may appoint will overturn the precedents that have been set. Judges are egotistical assholes, and they'd rather not tarnish their reputations (see John Roberts). And the American people don't have the appetite for a protracted cultural war on these issues right now. Trump didn't even run on those issues. There are bigger fish to fry. Which takes me to my last point....
4) Trump is a moderate at heart, and I fully expect him to govern like a moderate. Pay attention to his speech from last night. Notice how he didn't mention the wall? Or even the immigration issue at all? I know everyone is all wound up thanks to the media's relentless negative portrayal of him over the past six months, but I think that there is a real danger that Trump's supporters will be the ones who find themselves supremely disappointed over the next two-four years. Obamacare might be bad (because it's expensive? as far as I read that's the only issue with it?) but it did some very important things in regards to insurance companies no longer being able to fuck over people with health issues. You can't ethically allow health insurance companies to refuse social protection to people because they have health issues. It's fucking stupid Obamacare is bad because it has 1) gutted the insurance coverage of those who had it and were happy with it (a lot of people), 2) it made that coverage more expensive, 3) and it forced expensive coverage on a lot of people who don't even want it. Yes, Obamacare does provide coverage to people with preexisting coverage, but the cost to everyone is way too high. Obamacare is clearly the wrong solution. 1) Many of those plans were useless because the insurer could kick you out if you ever actually got ill 2) True 3) No one can afford an actual serious injury/illness. If your not insured society pays the bill The problem with the ACA was price and that was because the US allows insurers to be greedy fucks who price gouge their customers. Healthcare doesn't have to be so expensive. insurers and providers/pharma, mostly providers and pharma The insurance companies are the ones with the power to force down the price. Consumers cannot do this because they have no power over their health.
a lot of consolidation/patents etc on the suppliers side. insurance wants to reduce payout but not overall volume of healthcare services.
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On November 10 2016 01:11 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 01:08 ACrow wrote:On November 10 2016 01:05 xDaunt wrote:On November 10 2016 00:58 Logo wrote:3) Abortion rights aren't going anywhere. Gay rights aren't going anywhere. You've won on these issues. Even if Trump gets capped and Pence takes over, there's nothing that the president can do to unwind the progress that's been made. Virtually no judge that Trump may appoint will overturn the precedents that have been set. Judges are egotistical assholes, and they'd rather not tarnish their reputations (see John Roberts). And the American people don't have the appetite for a protracted cultural war on these issues right now. Trump didn't even run on those issues. There are bigger fish to fry. Which takes me to my last point.... This one seems incorrect (the abortion part)? There's already a bunch of states chipping away at abortion rights by imposing overly strict regulations on where abortions can be performed or allowing shady centers to operate that appear to be about family planning or offer abortions but then really hammer anti-abortion messages into you. See: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/06/01/14-states-have-passed-laws-making-it-harder-to-get-an-abortion-already-this-year/ among others. Anyone can get an abortion in this country. Unless you're an advocate for late term abortions, the battle is being fought at the margins over convenience. This is a non-issue that is blown out of proportion by the left. That is so egotistical it is disgusting. "I'm male, so I'm not affected, so I don't care". Jerk. Keep your nose out of women's affairs and let them decide you control freak. Come on that's not what he said ... I truly wonder : is the vote Trump some kind of millenarism ? Did US citizens showed their desire for the end of the world ? I've had some tough discussion with students this morning. The media attacked their brains so much they actually thought Trump meant WW3.
Id have to see age breakdowns if its millennials but it feels like the belief that something is wrong and that it should be fixed means they will vote for whoever is for changing the status quo. Regardless of what it is being changed to or if the new result will be better for them.
Cut the nose to spite the face.
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On November 10 2016 01:10 plasmidghost wrote:
I went to sleep with the Dow futures down over 800 points and woke up to the Dow up a little from yesterday. I'm actually surprised that it recovered all its losses, maybe Trump's not going to be so shocking after all
I think economy wise, it is going to be status quo, business as usual. The biggest losses from this election will be on the Social issues (immigration / gay rights / welfare) and positions on the Supreme court. The setbacks on the Supreme court front will likely have the longest effect of them all.
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On November 10 2016 01:12 Elizar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 00:55 VayneAuthority wrote:On November 10 2016 00:45 Ektor Baboden wrote:On November 10 2016 00:33 VayneAuthority wrote:
Democrats lost independents like me when they continued to focus on anything except their actual candidate. The smugness and constant name-calling got to an absurd point. Calling everyone that didn't support Clinton with you racist and sexist...Democrats were their own worst enemy this election.
Proof is in the pudding, Obama voters like myself decided this election.
That's right, so many voters who are not racist or sexist, but decided that to better represent them, it would be a good idea to elect a president that has made several blatantly racist and sexist remarks. What a funny world we live in. When people in Europe elected fascist candidates to bring change at all costs, it didn't go that well. I can only hope Trump was making those senseless remarks just to get elected, and will actually be smart from now on. In any case I agree that Hillary was not the right candidate, but that's too easy to say now. (I am an immigrant and cannot vote.) Again, it's really not about the candidates. People are tired of politics as usual. I don't like Trump by any stretch, and would have voted sanders if its was that matchup. But in the end I wasn't going to comply and just take it in the ass again for 4 years. My taxes are the highest they have ever been and my state was going to be one of the biggest refugee takers which I absolutely did not want, they have already shown they are terrible at vetting. So in the end those two things are what actually made me vote. More importantly, a 12 time democrat incumbent got kicked out in my state by a black businessman in a county with a shitload of your classic racist trump supporters. If that doesn't tell you what happened, then I dunno. Hahahaa ... Sorry that I find that funny. But high taxes and lots of refugees? Try living in Germany
I actually think some Trump voters saw what was going on in Europe with the refugee crisis and it was one of the factors for them voting the way they did.
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On November 10 2016 01:02 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 00:57 Incognoto wrote:On November 10 2016 00:53 xDaunt wrote:
For all of you liberals standing at the edge of the cliff, take some solace in the following:
1) American institutions are tremendously resilient. The impact that Trump will have without some degree of bipartisan support won't be that big.
2) Yes, Obamacare is done. Good riddance to it. It's clearly a steaming pile of shit and an anchor on the Democrats. But here's the silver lining: I give it a better than even chance that Trump advocates for some sort of government option (think Medicare for all) as the replacement.
3) Abortion rights aren't going anywhere. Gay rights aren't going anywhere. You've won on these issues. Even if Trump gets capped and Pence takes over, there's nothing that the president can do to unwind the progress that's been made. Virtually no judge that Trump may appoint will overturn the precedents that have been set. Judges are egotistical assholes, and they'd rather not tarnish their reputations (see John Roberts). And the American people don't have the appetite for a protracted cultural war on these issues right now. Trump didn't even run on those issues. There are bigger fish to fry. Which takes me to my last point....
4) Trump is a moderate at heart, and I fully expect him to govern like a moderate. Pay attention to his speech from last night. Notice how he didn't mention the wall? Or even the immigration issue at all? I know everyone is all wound up thanks to the media's relentless negative portrayal of him over the past six months, but I think that there is a real danger that Trump's supporters will be the ones who find themselves supremely disappointed over the next two-four years. Obamacare might be bad (because it's expensive? as far as I read that's the only issue with it?) but it did some very important things in regards to insurance companies no longer being able to fuck over people with health issues. You can't ethically allow health insurance companies to refuse social protection to people because they have health issues. It's fucking stupid Obamacare is bad because it has 1) gutted the insurance coverage of those who had it and were happy with it (a lot of people), 2) it made that coverage more expensive, 3) and it forced expensive coverage on a lot of people who don't even want it. Yes, Obamacare does provide coverage to people with preexisting coverage, but the cost to everyone is way too high. Obamacare is clearly the wrong solution.
OK that makes sense to me but I want to ask a few more questions before I'm truly satisfied.
First off, who doesn't want health care? Doesn't want as in "I'm fine with dying if I get cancer" or "I can't afford to cover myself against cancer so I just won't and hope that I don't get it".
Neither of them seem remotely appealing. I think that there were a few people in the second predicament and that Obamacare forced them to get coverage anyway (which is certainly clumsy no doubt). The kneejerk reaction from insurance companies (who are all hell-spawn as far as I'm concerned since the number one thing that insurance companies will do is to take your money but avoid covering you when you need it) is to raise rates across the board, as a way to have leverage against obamacare.
I don't find it easy to position myself against obamacare, to me the assholes here are the insurance companies.
Edit: read another post of yours, I think I see your position more clearly now
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On November 10 2016 01:11 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 01:08 ACrow wrote:On November 10 2016 01:05 xDaunt wrote:On November 10 2016 00:58 Logo wrote:3) Abortion rights aren't going anywhere. Gay rights aren't going anywhere. You've won on these issues. Even if Trump gets capped and Pence takes over, there's nothing that the president can do to unwind the progress that's been made. Virtually no judge that Trump may appoint will overturn the precedents that have been set. Judges are egotistical assholes, and they'd rather not tarnish their reputations (see John Roberts). And the American people don't have the appetite for a protracted cultural war on these issues right now. Trump didn't even run on those issues. There are bigger fish to fry. Which takes me to my last point.... This one seems incorrect (the abortion part)? There's already a bunch of states chipping away at abortion rights by imposing overly strict regulations on where abortions can be performed or allowing shady centers to operate that appear to be about family planning or offer abortions but then really hammer anti-abortion messages into you. See: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/06/01/14-states-have-passed-laws-making-it-harder-to-get-an-abortion-already-this-year/ among others. Anyone can get an abortion in this country. Unless you're an advocate for late term abortions, the battle is being fought at the margins over convenience. This is a non-issue that is blown out of proportion by the left. That is so egotistical it is disgusting. "I'm male, so I'm not affected, so I don't care". Jerk. Keep your nose out of women's affairs and let them decide you control freak. Come on that's not what he said ... I truly wonder : is the vote Trump some kind of millenarism ? Did US citizens showed their desire for the end of the world ?I've had some tough discussion with students this morning. The media attacked their brains so much they actually thought Trump meant WW3.
Like I've said for a long time (and you have said the same), what exactly did Trump supporters have to lose? What was their alternative? They've been maligned culturally for so long, that a populist revolt was inevitable.
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On November 10 2016 00:57 SkyTheUnknown wrote:
Soon Merkel could be the last relevant leader of the western world, who follows reason. Utterly terrifying. I really hope that at least the elections in France will prevent Marine Le Pen. All the other right wing leaders / autocrats like Putin, Erdogan, Orban, Farage, Duterte and Wilders are in pure delight right now.
The same Merkel that ordered nuclear power plants to close down after an earthquake in Japan? The same Merkel that recklessly invited millions of illegal immigrants to Europe?
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EPT
